Confederate Flags in West Virginia?

[Spoke]

Originally Posted by Sister Vigilante

I'm not sure if you're on my side or another. But people who fly the confederate flag do so because it was specifically reinstated as a protest against desegregation. The flag had been previously canned.

While it's true that several Southern states incorporated the Confederate flag into their state flags in protest against integration, the idea that the flag had faded from Southern consciousness before Brown v. Board of Education (1954) is a myth of recent vintage.

During World War II some U.S. military units with Southern nicknames, or made up largely of Southerners, made the flag their unofficial emblem. The USS Columbia flew a Confederate Navy Ensign as a battle flag throughout combat in the South Pacific in World War II. This was done in honor of Columbia, the ship's namesake and the capital city of South Carolina, the first state to secede from the Union. Some soldiers carried Confederate flags into battle. After the Battle of Okinawa a Confederate flag was raised over Shuri Castle by a Marine from the self-styled "Rebel Company" (Company A of the 1st Battalion, 5th Marines).

Cite.

It was also widely used in marketing imagery.

It is also a mistake to think that you know definitively why anyone given person display the flag. It has at various times been used as a symbol for the South as a region, and as a generic symbol of rebelliousness (cf. the appearances of the flag in the movie Animal House, the TV show The Dukes of Hazzard). I will grant you that in recent years, those innocuous uses have become more uncommon.

[What the .... ?!?!]

Originally Posted by Spoke

While it's true that several Southern states incorporated the Confederate flag into their state flags in protest against integration, the idea that the flag had faded from Southern consciousness before Brown v. Board of Education (1954) is a myth of recent vintage.



Cite.

I didn't see anything that directly supports "incorporated the Confederate flag into their state flags in protest against integration".

Maybe in protest of reconstruction of which integration may very well have been the biggest issue.

[Spoke]

My cite was for the fact that the Confederate flag was in use before the integration battles of the 50s and 60s. So it is wrong to suggest that the flag had faded from memory before the integration battles of the 50s came along.

However it is also true that Georgia inorporated the Confederate battle flag into its state flag in 1956, a time when the state was resisting the desegregation of the South kicked off by Brown v. Board of Education. Not a coincidence. It was symbolic defiance of the federal government.

But that is not to say that everyone who flew the flag thereafter was doing so to support segregation or to express racism. As I said before, the flag was often just a symbol of Southern pride, or a generic symbol of rebellion.

In short, it's complicated.

[Spoke]

Originally Posted by What the .... ?!?!

Please explain.............. everyone in WV was a Unionist during the war?

Yeah, Clarksburg native Stonewall Jackson would have found such an assertion amusing. (No, wait, strike that. Stonewall Jackson didn't seem to find much of anything amusing.)

[Tristan]

Originally Posted by Spoke

But that is not to say that everyone who flew the flag thereafter was doing so to support segregation or to express racism. As I said before, the flag was often just a symbol of Southern pride, or a generic symbol of rebellion.

In short, it's complicated.

There are thousands and thousands of people out there who admired the ability to build an ass kicking military out of nothingness in just a few short decades. There are those that believe that the corporatism of the Nazi Germany area was a good model. Many of those abhor the awful things that the Nazi's did, and rightly so.

As the Confederate flag has been largely claimed by racists and other fine upstanding folk, both from the south and other regions, I feel about those folks largely like I would feel about someone who admired the German military flying a Nazi flag.

If I were in charge, a US naval vessel flying the CSA ensign would have gotten the captain in some severely hot water, regardless of the name. But then, I'm not in charge, dang it.

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by What the .... ?!?!

Please explain.............. everyone in WV was a Unionist during the war?

True. But the whole point of their having a separate state was so they wouldn't have to join the Confederacy...

I suspect most people in WV who display Confederate flags are not Civil War buffs. But that may just be my prejudices about West Virginia showing. I went to Maryland, and Mr. Neville now works at Pitt, you can see where I might have picked up some anti-West Virginia prejudice.

[Spoke]

Originally Posted by Tristan

As the Confederate flag has been largely claimed by racists and other fine upstanding folk, both from the south and other regions, I feel about those folks largely like I would feel about someone who admired the German military flying a Nazi flag.

As is your right, this being a free country and all. But this is GQ, not Great Debates, and we are discussing possible reasons for displaying a Confederate flag, not our personal reactions to it.

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by Spoke

While it's true that several Southern states incorporated the Confederate flag into their state flags in protest against integration, the idea that the flag had faded from Southern consciousness before Brown v. Board of Education (1954) is a myth of recent vintage.

And a largely straw myth at that.

I have never heard of it being accepted truth among those with negative impressions of the Confederate flag, that it was defunct in the South before integration started to become a reality. It is certainly true that resistance to integration gave the flag a considerable increase in popularity, as evidenced by its incorporation into Southern state flags.

Based on my (relatively brief) residence in West Virginia, it appeared that pro-South Civil War romanticism was not common in the state, in fact even less common than in Kentucky where I lived for five years (eastern Kentucky, which has quite a bit in common with WV, was particularly non-receptive to magnolia-colored views of the wunnerful days of Southern pre-war heritage). The only sour note I can recall from West Virginia days was a letter from a Southern sympathizer published in the local paper, which stood out partly because the writer was so ill-informed about his state's history.

[Spoke]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

And a largely straw myth at that.

I have never heard of it being accepted truth among those with negative impressions of the Confederate flag, that it was defunct in the South before integration started to become a reality.

Argumentum ad ingnorantium. This idea pops up all the time on these boards, including this very thread!!!

Here it is in another thread, for example.

[What the .... ?!?!]

Originally Posted by Anne Neville

True. But the whole point of their having a separate state was so they wouldn't have to join the Confederacy...

The whole point of some....... a major factor to others ....... totally contrary to the desires of a large segment of the population.

[Really Not All That Bright]

How large a segment?

[Tristan]

Originally Posted by Spoke

As is your right, this being a free country and all. But this is GQ, not Great Debates, and we are discussing possible reasons for displaying a Confederate flag, not our personal reactions to it.

Correct, my apologies.

I'll restate the theory that a lot of folks who claim it as a matter of historical pride or whatever the reason may be, that racism may be an underlying issue. Pride in the CSA equals pride in the institution of slavery, though many seem to handwave that away.

[Spoke]

Originally Posted by Tristan

I'll restate the theory that a lot of folks who claim it as a matter of historical pride or whatever the reason may be, that racism may be an underlying issue.

I actually agree with that. For some folks, displaying a Confederate flag is intended to convey a whole constellation of ideas, and one of those ideas may be racism.

On the other hand, for other folks who display the flag, they intend to convey nothing more than generalized rebelliousness or pride in being Southern.

That second group, I will also grant, has grown much smaller proportionally in the past couple of decades. I think that is because people tend to be polite. People who might otherwise display the flag for innocuous reasons tend not to do so these days because they don't want to give offense, or to have folks misconstrue their intent.

Back in the 70s, the Confederate flag was ubiquitous here in Georgia (and really, nationwide --- see Animal House), and I think that was mostly for innocuous reasons. (Symbol of rebellious spirit. Dukes of Hazzard stuff.) These days, it's so unusual, I do a double-take whenever I see one. And like you, I tend to harbor dark suspicions about anyone displaying one. Which may or may not be justified.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Why do you think the Georgia legislature thought it was so important to display the Confederate flag above the state house? I'm guessing they aren't big on rebelliousness as a general concept.

[Spoke]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

Why do you think the Georgia legislature thought it was so important to display the Confederate flag above the state house? I'm guessing they aren't big on rebelliousness as a general concept.

Have you actually read my posts in this thread?

At any rate, this is not a general debate on the Confederate flag. This is a GQ thread on what the motivations might be of some folks who are apparently displaying the flag in West Virginia.

[Dufus]

Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot

West Virginia was formed when the people of that area choose not to join the rest of Virginia in the Confederacy. So what's the reasoning behind Confederate flags in West Virginia?

My inbox is full of notifications from Colibri that I have trespassed over political lines. So I write these words while standing on egg shells, in hopes of being sensitive.

I'm thinking that the people of West Virginia may be having second thoughts about the whole situation. They may not have fully realized what was going to be required of them, during the first go round.

Namely, the whole "white guilt trip" that they have to play along with; affirmative action, hate crime laws, legal aid in bringing lawsuits against everybody and everything that *might* look like discrimination, generations of people living on welfare in free housing projects, subsidized housing in expensive neighborhoods, school systems that have become cesspools, children who are indoctrinated to chant "that's racist, that's racist, that's racist".

I pray that this post does not offend Colibri. No, wait, I forgot, praying is not allowed, since we must now all be atheist. What's the new pledge of allegiance in the new world order? Come on over for anal sex?

Anyway, I can see why the people of West Virginia are beginning to have second thoughts and fly Rebel flags.

Just for the record, Dufus does not fly any flag, does not wear any school colors, any gang colors, and oddly enough, is with Michelle Obama 100 percent when she says "All this for a flag?!"

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Dufus

My inbox is full of notifications from Colibri that I have trespassed over political lines.

You have two warnings, actually, not a mailbox full.

No, wait, I forgot, praying is not allowed, since we must now all be atheist. What's the new pledge of allegiance in the new world order? Come on over for anal sex?

Anyway, I can see why the people of West Virginia are beginning to have second thoughts and fly Rebel flags.

Moderator Warning

As you've been told repeatedly, political commentary like this is not permitted in General Questions. It's also apparent that at this point you are very deliberately and intentionally violating this rule, as well as the rule against trolling. This is an official warning. Keep this up and you will find your posting privileges under discussion.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[Colibri]

This thread drifted out of GQ territory some time ago. Those who wish to further speculate on the motivations of people in West Virginia for flying the Confederate flag may open a new thread in Great Debates.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator