What would happen if the birthers turned out to be right about Obama?

[The Man With The Golden Gun]

Before I go into this, let's make one thing clear: Obama is a natural-born citizen, he was born in Hawaii, he is perfectly eligible to be POTUS and anyone who says otherwise, well, some things go without saying. What I'm about to post is purely hypothetical and is more alternate history than anything.

Let's say by some chance, it turns out the birthers end up being proven right and that Obama really isn't eligible to be President. How they proved it doesn't matter. The fact is that they proved it, except for one problem.

They proved it on, let's pull a date out my ass, October 5, 2011.

Obviously, this is well into Obama's first term in office. He's now the President, and it turns out he's ineligible. My question is, what happens next? Would Congress see the proof and tell the birthers "He's president. He was sworn in nearly two years ago. You should have proven this before he got elected but you were way too late, so you're stuck with Obama. Tough shit."

Or if Congress did decide to go after Obama for it, what then? Impeachment? Declare the election illegitimate? If so, who succeeds him? (Presumably Joe Biden, but there's a lot of ways this could go, all of them increasingly bizarre.) And is there any chance an impeachment hearing would get off the ground?

I have other ideas about what could happen, all of which would cause a pretty big clusterfuck for damn near everyone in Washington. I figured I'd let you all speculate on how this scenario would go.

I'm sure there's probably a perfectly simple solution to this puppy except 1)I don't know what it would be and 2)Simple solutions are no fun.

[etv78]

He'd be removed from office, and we'd have President Biden.

[Ethilrist]

Are you sure there isn't a simple factual answer for this as established by law?

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Ethilrist

Are you sure there isn't a simple factual answer for this as established by law?

I'm sure there isn't. The situation has never really presented before, not even in bullshit-form.

[The Man With The Golden Gun]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

I'm sure there isn't. The situation has never really presented before, not even in bullshit-form.

I figured there wasn't. I don't know how it would all go down, but no matter what it would probably make the birthers in this scenario wish they'd just tossed whatever their proof was down the memory hole.

[hajario]

Someone would sue and it would make its way through the courts until the SCOTUS decided. I can't fathom what they would do. It would be an interesting moot court.

[etv78]

Originally Posted by hajario

Someone would sue and it would make its way through the courts until the SCOTUS decided. I can't fathom what they would do. It would be an interesting moot court.

<Joey Tribbiani> Don't you mean moo court? Like a court for cows? <Joey Tribbiani>

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Obama's mother was still an American citizen.

[HMS Irruncible]

Originally Posted by The Man With The Golden Gun

I have other ideas about what could happen, all of which would cause a pretty big clusterfuck for damn near everyone in Washington. I figured I'd let you all speculate on how this scenario would go.

Every 2 minutes a jet airliner would crash from pigs being sucked into its engines.

[Gagundathar]

Qin, the scenario is that Mr. Obama is NOT an natural-born American citizen.
We all know (well, we all SHOULD know) that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born citizen.

Given the scenario, what other legitimate outcome could there be except the promotion of Mr. Biden to the office of POTUS?

[voltaire]

Well, I have no legal basis for this opinion, but they (the SC) could decide that not being a NBC only disqualifies someone to run for election, or to be put on the ballot, but Obama could still finish his term and then be unable to be reelected.

To me, that solution would strike the proper balance because qualified to run or not, the people elected him. Just because he was erroneously allowed on the ballot, shouldn't mean that the will of the electorate is ignored.

[magellan01]

Originally Posted by voltaire

Well, I have no legal basis for this opinion, but they (the SC) could decide that not being a NBC only disqualifies someone to run for election, or to be put on the ballot, but Obama could still finish his term and then be unable to be reelected.

To me, that solution would strike the proper balance because qualified to run or not, the people elected him. Just because he was erroneously allowed on the ballot, shouldn't mean that the will of the electorate is ignored.

Following the hypothetical, I don't think the will of the voters would, or should, matter. If someone is not allowed to hold the office then it is immaterial if he is wanted. Look back to when Arnold S. was super popular early in his Governership. 90% of the people could have wanted him—hell they could have all written his name down—but it still wouldn't matter.

My guess is that every bill he signed into law would be undone. And THAT could cause a nightmare. But I don't see any way around it really.

[The Man With The Golden Gun]

Originally Posted by magellan01

My guess is that every bill he signed into law would be undone. And THAT could cause a nightmare. But I don't see any way around it really.

I thought about that, and while it would be a weird scenario (certainly one we haven't seen before), it makes me wonder how far it would go.

Would Obamacare get the ax? If so, how would the states that have started implementing portions of it deal with it?

If every law Obama signed was illegitimate, would all his Cabinet appointments be as well? I doubt that would happen, but if it did, that would be a real mess, especially when they have to figure out who they're going to make the new POTUS.

I don't know if any of that is possible, but if it was, hoo boy.

[GreasyJack]

I'd normally say that Congress would probably decide it would be less disruptive to just amend the constitution to legitimize everything he's done in office and let him at least serve out his term, but I'm not so sure about the current Congress.

[John Mace]

Everyone so far seems to assume Obama would have to be removed from office. I would hope that, in order to avoid a constitutional crisis, Obama would step down and Biden would become president. It would be very strange for Obama to fight it, if it were really, 100% certain. He could avoid the whole mess by just stepping down. Easy peasy.

[voltaire]

Originally Posted by magellan01

Following the hypothetical, I don't think the will of the voters would, or should, matter. If someone is not allowed to hold the office then it is immaterial if he is wanted. Look back to when Arnold S. was super popular early in his Governership. 90% of the people could have wanted him—hell they could have all written his name down—but it still wouldn't matter.

I disagree. Your Arnold example is hardly apt because, barring an amendment, he would never have been allowed to be elected and sworn in. Obama was elected and he was sworn in, and that makes a huge difference.

The time for anyone to challenge Obama's eligibility was before he was elected, and certainly before he was sworn in. After that, done deal. Once the will of the electorate is ratified, "possession" (yeah, scary quotes) of the office is 9/10th's of the law.

On a practical level, to do as you suggest would just be insanity. It would be like cutting off your face to spite your nose. I'd like to think that the SC would be more pragmatic than that.

[Lord Feldon]

Originally Posted by magellan01

My guess is that every bill he signed into law would be undone.

But even if that happened, it would only be the ones sent to him by Congress within 10 days of an adjournment. Any other time, the president's failure to act on a bill means that it becomes law. It would also mean that bills he vetoed outside of those 10 day windows would suddenly become law.

[Bryan Ekers]

If he's found to have deliberately concealed his ineligibility, remove him on that basis, i.e. fraud. If not (i.e. as far as he knew, he was a born U.S. citizen but evidence came forth that he was actually born outside the U.S.), let him serve out his term though he would obviously not be eligible to run for another.

In any case, do not try to retroactively invalidate legislation he signed, or validate legislation he vetoed. That way lies madness and stupidity.

[Bryan Ekers]

As an incidental note, I'm curious if the presidential election of 2060 will also invoke debates on what "natural born" means, if it is revealed that a candidate was conceived through IVF or other fertility treatments. If future America is as blindly partisan as current America, it won't shock me.

[Diceman]

If Obama isn't willing to resign, then he should be impeached. It doesn't make sense to force the people to tolerate a president who quite literally doesn't belong in office. He has to go, voluntarily or not. This is why we have a vice president, even if the exact situation isn't what the Founding Fathers were imagining.

[grude]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

If not (i.e. as far as he knew, he was a born U.S. citizen but evidence came forth that he was actually born outside the U.S.).

The only possible way I can see that Obama is declared to not be a natural born citizen* is not only was he born outside the USA, but also that his mother was not actually his real mother too.


*According to every sane and mainstream legal scholar's opinion natural born citizen simply means someone who was a citizen from birth and did not naturalize. I realize some people claim the term means other things like both parents and even grandparents being NBCs too in addition to being born on USA soil, and that there has never been a specific ruling on what NBC means. However I will go with the consensus of modern legal experts, and I don't wish to debate it.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by grude

The only possible way I can see that Obama is declared to not be a natural born citizen* is not only was he born outside the USA, but also that his mother was not actually his real mother too.

Well, I'm assuming for the sake of the hypothetical that regardless of the exact formula, he is found to have been ineligible. Heck, assume it turns out that he was only 34 years old when elected, if it matters.

[Giles]

Originally Posted by grude

The only possible way I can see that Obama is declared to not be a natural born citizen* is not only was he born outside the USA, but also that his mother was not actually his real mother too.

We've discussed this before, but if Barack Obama had been born outside the United States and if his mother was married at the time to Barack Obama's father, then Barack Obama would not be a citizen. Ann Dunham was 18 years old at the time, and so could not have lived in the U.S. for 5 years after her 14th birthday, as required by the law at that time. (It would be different if she had not been married, since the law would only have required 1 year's residence -- and you could argue that she was not married, since Barack Obama Senior had married her bigamously.)

But if you want to avoid these hypotheticals, you could discuss the case of Chester Arthur. If he had been born in Canada or in Ireland, what should the Congress or the Supreme Court have done about it during his tenure as President? That gets away from present-day partisan issues.

[grude]

Originally Posted by Giles

Ann Dunham was 18 years old at the time, and so could not have lived in the U.S. for 5 years after her 14th birthday, as required by the law at that time. (It would be different if she had not been married, since the law would only have required 1 year's residence -- and you could argue that she was not married, since Barack Obama Senior had married her bigamously.)

There is apart from the bigamy issue a question whether of whether she was ever legally married to Obama's father at all, which Obama himself admitted in his book Dreams Of My Father. I can assume this would all have to straightened out before any removal from office could occur.

Obama’s African family is particularly complicated. By his own account, his father never really left Kezia, his first wife, in Kenya. She bore Obama Sr two children, Roy and Auma, who now works in social services in Berkshire.

They were separated, Obama’s mother claimed, but “it was a village wedding and there was no document that could suggest a divorce”.

His own father and mother’s wedding in Hawaii may not have been properly documented either. “How and when the marriage occurred remains a bit murky, a bill of particulars that I have never quite had the courage to explore,” Obama writes in his memoir.

http://muslimmedianetwork.com/mmn/?p=686

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by magellan01

My guess is that every bill he signed into law would be undone. And THAT could cause a nightmare. But I don't see any way around it really.

Even putting aside Lord Feldon's point, that really wouldn't happen. You can't unscramble an egg, and saying that every law passed up to that point is null and void would be way too chaotic. What about budgets? Does all the money the US spent have to be returned since the US didn't have authorization to spend it? Obama signed some tax cuts. Does the IRS send letters to everyone saying "Sorry, guys, those tax cuts never happened. You owe us X." Obama gave the order to kill Osama bin Laden. Do we use necromancy to resurrect him? It's just not possible to do what you're suggesting.

[Martin Hyde]

Once sworn in the only way to remove a sitting President would be through impeachment. (And certain tricks with the 25th Amendment.)

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by hajario

Someone would sue and it would make its way through the courts until the SCOTUS decided.

At that, who has standing to sue? McCain? Biden? Any voter? Any member of the armed forces?

[Vinyl Turnip]

To pose a more realistic question: what happens when Biden is discovered to be a cyborg?

[Gagundathar]

I have often suspected that Mr. Biden is a cyborg.
A poorly programmed one, at that.
A real cyborg would 'stay on message' and not 'leave the farm'.

[runner pat]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

To pose a more realistic question: what happens when Biden is discovered to be a cyborg?

Was he built here?

[Interrobang]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

If he's found to have deliberately concealed his ineligibility, remove him on that basis, i.e. fraud. If not (i.e. as far as he knew, he was a born U.S. citizen but evidence came forth that he was actually born outside the U.S.), let him serve out his term though he would obviously not be eligible to run for another.

I think that his knowledge or lack thereof would be critical in the process. If he knowingly violated the Constitution, I would expect not just impeachment but some sort of further charges (fraud? conspiracy? impersonating a government official?).

A further snag...if he's removed, presumably Biden gets the presidency. But it could be argued that Biden is only vice president because of the illegal election of Obama. Heck, Biden would likely have to have been complicit in the conspiracy. Therefore, I could see an issue arising where the SCOTUS might argue that Biden is not legally vice-president. I suppose then Boehner is put in office.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by Interrobang

I think that his knowledge or lack thereof would be critical in the process. If he knowingly violated the Constitution, I would expect not just impeachment but some sort of further charges (fraud? conspiracy? impersonating a government official?).

A further snag...if he's removed, presumably Biden gets the presidency. But it could be argued that Biden is only vice president because of the illegal election of Obama. Heck, Biden would likely have to have been complicit in the conspiracy. Therefore, I could see an issue arising where the SCOTUS might argue that Biden is not legally vice-president. I suppose then Boehner is put in office.

Congress would have to impeach Biden and remove him from office. With the Dems in control of the Senate, even if the House did impeach, unless they really had a case, the Senate wouldn't convict.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Interrobang

A further snag...if he's removed, presumably Biden gets the presidency. But it could be argued that Biden is only vice president because of the illegal election of Obama. Heck, Biden would likely have to have been complicit in the conspiracy. Therefore, I could see an issue arising where the SCOTUS might argue that Biden is not legally vice-president. I suppose then Boehner is put in office.

Biden is VP because he was elected as such by the Electoral College. Legally his election had nothing to do with Obama, and I can't imagine the SCOTUS would find otherwise.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by Interrobang

A further snag...if he's removed, presumably Biden gets the presidency. But it could be argued that Biden is only vice president because of the illegal election of Obama. Heck, Biden would likely have to have been complicit in the conspiracy.

Well, complicity issues aside, aren't the President and Vice-President technically elected separately by the Electoral College, in ostensibly independent votes? The Democrats nominated Obama as President and Biden as Vice-President, not Obama-Biden as single "Presidential unit", in contrast to how their names appear on the ballots given to the general public.

ETA:Well, I see Simplico got in before me, but as an afterthought, wouldn't changing the system to allow direct election of the president also require direct election of the vice-president? There are separate offices, after all, with distinct duties. Thus, the U.S. could end up with a Pres and Veep of different parties.

[Lemur866]

If Obama were found to not be eligible to have served as president, his acts as president up until now would not be void. There are only two methods for removing him as President.

He can be impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate, and if he committed fraud of some kind or another he could be prosecuted separately, since impeachment can only remove him from office.

Or by the 25th Amendment, Section 4:

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

However, this doesn't remove the president from office, it merely allows the Vice-President to act as Acting President, the President can resume his duties whenever he can get 1/3 of Congress to not vote that he's unable to discharge his duties.

If Obama were removed from office, Biden would become President. If you wanted to remove him, you'd have to go the exact same route with the new president separately--impeachment, via the 25th Amendment.

If you really wanted Biden out too, it would probably best to first impeach him, get a new Vice President, then impeach Obama so the new Vice President takes over seamlessly.

The notion that, because he was ineligible to be president, that every act he did as president would be void, is simply nonsense. If we wanted to undo his acts the new President and Congress would have to explicitly repeal them with new legislation. To remove his appointees would require impeachment, or, in the case of at-will appointees like Cabinet members, the new President can choose whoever he likes, subject to the advise and consent of the Senate.

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

If you really wanted Biden out too, it would probably best to first impeach him, get a new Vice President, then impeach Obama so the new Vice President takes over seamlessly.

That has the disadvantage (depending on your point of view) of letting Obama pick the next President, as long as the Dems control the Senate. If the GOP controlled it, Obama could spin it out for a while.

In that case, it might be better to impeach them both, get rid of them both, and then have the Speaker take over fresh. You would probably have to have separate trials, although maybe you could impeach the whole freaking Cabinet under the RICO Act.

Regards,
Shodan

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by Shodan

In that case, it might be better to impeach them both, get rid of them both, and then have the Speaker take over fresh. You would probably have to have separate trials, although maybe you could impeach the whole freaking Cabinet under the RICO Act.

Impeaching Biden, a duly elected official, for no other reason than that he isn't a Republican would tear this country apart.

[Shodan]

You might want to actually read the thread before you respond. Pay particular attention to post #31.

Regards,
Shodan

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by Shodan

You might want to actually read the thread before you respond. Pay particular attention to post #31.

Regards,
Shodan

You might to read posts other than the ones that you agree with, like #33(among others making the same point). Biden was duly elected-there is NO case for fraud or deception concerning his separate election via the Electoral College.

[mlees]

If such an event were to occur (the removal of President Obama and the nullification of his use of his Presidential powers), could President Biden theoretically sign an executive order that reimplements the laws and stuff in one fell swoop [document], and making them retroactive to the dates Obama signed them?

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

You might to read posts other than the ones that you agree with, like #33(among others making the same point). Biden was duly elected-there is NO case for fraud or deception concerning his separate election via the Electoral College.

Post #31 mentions Biden's supposed conspiracy in Obama's election, not his own. IOW that Biden knew that Obama was not eligible to be President, but conspired with him to cover up documents or something similar.

The part about getting him out because he isn't a Republican is something you made up.

Regards,
Shodan

[Lemur866]

There would be no need to do any such thing. The laws signed and orders given by Obama would remain law. It would not be the case that Obama had never been the president, rather that Obama had improperly been the president. His use of presidential powers would not be nullified. That would be silly. He has been duly sworn in as President, and his future removal from office, if it even took place, would not change that.

[Capt Kirk]

I personally believe, the result is Civil War part deux

Just like there is no way to convince the Birthers that Obama is legit, there is no way no how that "Certain Groups" or at least subsets of these groups will ever be convinced that that "proof " is true. Add that tension to the Occupy mindset, plus the "Right" will take advantage of this situation and riots will explode all over the country. Deaths will occur and the spiral begins. Think of the beginning of the Spanish Civil War only much nastier. I don't mean this as a slam towards any group I have mentioned, I just believe that there is no way the first AA President gets impeached, in this political environment, and it turns out well. To be honest the "Proof", I am going to have a hard time believing, you know it would be awfully "convenient" for someone to have found out now

Cheers all
Capt

[handsomeharry]

Originally Posted by voltaire

I disagree. Your Arnold example is hardly apt because, barring an amendment, he would never have been allowed to be elected and sworn in. Obama was elected and he was sworn in, and that makes a huge difference.

The time for anyone to challenge Obama's eligibility was before he was elected, and certainly before he was sworn in. After that, done deal. Once the will of the electorate is ratified, "possession" (yeah, scary quotes) of the office is 9/10th's of the law.

On a practical level, to do as you suggest would just be insanity. It would be like cutting off your face to spite your nose. I'd like to think that the SC would be more pragmatic than that.

1. You are wrong about the done deal aspect.
Will of electorate being 'ratified' is not a legal concept, when it contradicts the Constitution.

2. Eligibility can be challenged at any time. What makes you think it can't?

The nation is governed by the Constitution, not 'the will of the electorate.'

He would be canned, and the laws that he signed would not be undone.

[handsomeharry]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

To be honest the "Proof", I am going to have a hard time believing, you know it would be awfully "convenient" for someone to have found out now

Cheers all
Capt

I think it was hypothetical.

[Capt Kirk]

Originally Posted by handsomeharry

I think it was hypothetical.

Yeah I didn't mean to hijack, just got thinking as I was reading.
Sorry folks for my errant ways

[Kobal2]

Well, there is precedent for at least one person who was nowhere near "natural born" to be the President of the United States, isn't there ? Y'all even put him on Mt. Rushmore.
Most probably a few Presidents after him as well, though I'm shaky on early American history so don't ask me to name them

[2sense]

Those who were here during the Revolution were grandfathered in. Martin Van Buren, the 8th POTUS, was the first born after Independence.

[Interrobang]

Originally Posted by Shodan

You might want to actually read the thread before you respond. Pay particular attention to post #31.

Regards,
Shodan

Which was my (likely flawed) understanding of the laws surrounding the situation. I hypothesized that Biden would likely have been aware of Obama's lack of eligibility. If, in this situation, it turned out that Biden was truly unaware and not complicit, I agree that there would be no reason to consider impeachment. However, it does seem staggeringly unlikely that the VP would be unaware if the President were ineligible for the office.

[Kobal2]

Precisely.
So, if the Constitution as written can be circumvented out of expediency and people be retro-actively made natural born citizens in one instance, then it can be in others when also expedient - such as "when the guy has been acting President for 4 years already".
Can't think of a better reason to give anyone honorary citizenship-with-all-the-trimmings, really ; and averting the confusion and chaos inherent in trying to retcon his presidency seems eminently expedient to me.

ETA: that was a reply to 2sense, naturally.