Is GOP trying to sabotage economy to hurt Obama?

[Lobohan]

Originally Posted by elucidator

So, say you have an infection in your finger. Pretty bad, doctor says take all of this big ol' bottle of antibiotics, and you'll get better. But you figure you are smarter than him, and just take a third of the medicine. And you get worse and then you say "Good thing I didn't take it all, I'd be in real bad shape!"

Holy shit, conservatism is like political homeopathy!

[yorick73]

Originally Posted by Lobohan

I don't doubt that some Republicans are true believers. Especially the people voted in on the Tea Party surge of 2010. But the leadership doesn't believe. Because both McConnel and Boehner aren't stupid. They understand what's happening and are doing what they do on purpose.

The leaders of both parties are opportunistic scum. Boehner and McConnell were reacting, as they should, to the message sent by the tea party lest they would be looking for employment in short order.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

Not enough to quote it from memory. But I did read this page.

Calling something a jobs bill doesn't make it one. Kinda like calling it the Affordable Care Act doesn't make it affordable. You can read about some of the provisions here. The left wasn't too thrilled about it either...obviously for different reasons.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

Because every other congress had. Also, defaulting on the debt ceiling would destroy the world economy. That's a fact. And what the Republicans did is threaten the world economy so they could get what they want.

I'd call it smart politics. They made Democrats an offer they couldn't refuse. Of course I don't believe they would have allowed us to default on the debt. They used the debt ceiling for exactly what it was...a big-ass bargaining chip.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

Let me say that again. The Republicans threatened the world economy, so they could get what they want. Do you hold a knife to your wife's throat and say, "Hey babe, how about pizza tonight?"

No. Usually when I'm holding the knife to her throat I say "We are having pizza tonight"

Originally Posted by Lobohan

Nothing is good in every case. The fact that taxes are lower than they were in decades, should tell you that cutting them further isn't necessarily smart.

Extending the Bush tax cuts is not cutting taxes further. Even Obama said it was a bad idea to raise taxes in the middle of a recession...until he thought otherwise.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

A valiant attempt to gild the turd, but the Republicans have been acting in a destructive manner.

It is only sabotage if the Republicans felt that the very things they were blocking would help the economy. No Republican or Conservative believes they would do anything but hurt the economy. It's all about perspective.

[yorick73]

Originally Posted by elucidator

So, say you have an infection in your finger. Pretty bad, doctor says take all of this big ol' bottle of antibiotics, and you'll get better. But you figure you are smarter than him, and just take a third of the medicine. And you get worse and then you say "Good thing I didn't take it all, I'd be in real bad shape!"

You're on to something but you worded it wrong.

So, say you have an infection in your finger. Pretty bad, doctor says take all of this big ol' bottle of antibiotics, and you'll get better. You take them all as directed. And you get worse and then you say "Good thing I took them all, I'd be in even worse shape if I hadn't.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by yorick73

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-250_162-2709229.html

That doesn't say what you claimed. Or anything close to it, in fact.

[Lobohan]

Originally Posted by yorick73

The leaders of both parties are opportunistic scum. Boehner and McConnell were reacting, as they should, to the message sent by the tea party lest they would be looking for employment in short order.

Both parties have their problems. But the Republicans are the ones who are actively pursuing nonsense that has no relation to the real world.

Calling something a jobs bill doesn't make it one. Kinda like calling it the Affordable Care Act doesn't make it affordable. You can read about some of the provisions here. The left wasn't too thrilled about it either...obviously for different reasons.

That was insane. You honestly linked to a guy, to inform me better, who said, among other things:

...desperate effort...a turgid 155-page bill....tighten the stranglehold that government regulation... its juvenile intellectual quality...dreadful hodgepodge... and so on.

That wasn't an intelligent description of the bill, it was a polemic written for ignorant people who can't understand reasoned arguments.

How about this from a legitimate news source:
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/david...9#.T9viAbVPrdR

President Obama's $447 billion American Jobs Act is getting mostly solid marks from business experts and economists, who worry that a divided Congress may be unable to pass anything meaningful in time.

Honestly, if you're getting your information from sources like your link, all you're doing is getting pissed based on misinformation and stilted language. Please don't link nonsense like that in the future, when you have the nerve to suggest you're informing me of the facts.

I'd call it smart politics. They made Democrats an offer they couldn't refuse. Of course I don't believe they would have allowed us to default on the debt. They used the debt ceiling for exactly what it was...a big-ass bargaining chip.

They threatened something that would cause as much damage to this country as a war. Not just this country, all of them. That's evil.

No. Usually when I'm holding the knife to her throat I say "We are having pizza tonight"

Ha ha. You continue to impress me.

Extending the Bush tax cuts is not cutting taxes further. Even Obama said it was a bad idea to raise taxes in the middle of a recession...until he thought otherwise.

We were already in the recovery when the extension came around. Also, the Repubs want to cut taxes even further. For no reason. Take the Ryan budget for instance.

It is only sabotage if the Republicans felt that the very things they were blocking would help the economy. No Republican or Conservative believes they would do anything but hurt the economy. It's all about perspective.

McConnel and Boehner know that the answer is in between. They know that taxes need to be raised a bit. But they are afraid of the TPers so they govern like stupid people. It's sabotage, but it's because they value their positions of power more than they value the government recovering faster. Boehner couldn't give one fuck if 50,000 families lose their homes because of his dragging his feet. He's still the speaker.

That is sabotage.

[Robot Arm]

Originally Posted by yorick73

But, regardless of policy, eventually the economy will improve on its own. Of course any republican would rather see the economy recover after Obama's ass is out of office because, regardless of the reason for the recovery, the current administration always gets the credit.

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

Party before country, and ideology before facts.

Originally Posted by yorick73

That's a great description of the modern Left.

You said that any Republican would prefer to see the economy stay bad for the next seven months, at least. That's real hardship for millions of people, just for them to win a few elections. That's party before country.

You also said they'd be happy to accept the credit. If you have any belief in cause-and-effect, then some things must be better for the economy than others. Should we at least learn from this moment in history to see what works and what doesn't? Nah, Republicans will take credit regardless of the reason, if they can. Who cares what works, they're gonna push the same policies they always have, reality be damned. That's ideology before facts.

[yorick73]

Originally Posted by Lobohan

That was insane. You honestly linked to a guy, to inform me better, who said, among other things:

...desperate effort...a turgid 155-page bill....tighten the stranglehold that government regulation... its juvenile intellectual quality...dreadful hodgepodge... and so on.

That wasn't an intelligent description of the bill, it was a polemic written for ignorant people who can't understand reasoned arguments.

How about this from a legitimate news source:
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/david...9#.T9viAbVPrdR


Honestly, if you're getting your information from sources like your link, all you're doing is getting pissed based on misinformation and stilted language. Please don't link nonsense like that in the future, when you have the nerve to suggest you're informing me of the facts.

The sad part is there was more news on the Jobs bill in that opinion piece than in both the ABC piece and the Whitehouse page combined. The Jobs bill was nothing more than a second Obama stimulus that was to be paid for by raising taxes. You should have the brains to know that any Whitehouse release will be propaganda regardless of the administration. ABC news shamelessly acts as nothing but a press agent for Obama these days so I'm not really surprised they don't report on what is really in the bill. All you have to do is flip through the actual bill in order to see which of those links provides more information. Go ahead and have a look.

The part of your statement I find most amusing is your foaming at the mouth over a link! After linking to, and defending, that ridiculus Rex Nutting story stating that Obama has presided over the slowest growth in spending since the 1950's you simply are not qualified to judge what is ignorant or intelligent. You should be embarrased by that link. I've given you two chances to defend that nonsense but you've managed to "lose track" of both threads. I'm not surprised...I would have disappeared from those threads like you did instead of trying to defend that BS link. Well, maybe I would have just admitted I was wrong and should have used my brain just a little before falling for such nonsense....that way I could save a little face.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

They threatened something that would cause as much damage to this country as a war. Not just this country, all of them. That's evil.

That's EVIL? You sound like a grade school student. Use your brain! Defaulting on the debt was not going to happen regardless. We could have paid to service the debt by making cuts elsewhere but, as is typical for the Democrats, they didn't want to lower spending anywhere else.

I'll have to agree with Obama on this one:

Originally Posted by Obama

The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here.’ Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America’s debt limit.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

We were already in the recovery when the extension came around. Also, the Repubs want to cut taxes even further. For no reason. Take the Ryan budget for instance.

Ah, so the instance we are in recovery the Dems want to increase taxes. Do you realize how stupid that is? Why hamstring the economy the minute it starts improving? That is sabotage!

Originally Posted by Lobohan

McConnel and Boehner know that the answer is in between. They know that taxes need to be raised a bit. But they are afraid of the TPers so they govern like stupid people. It's sabotage, but it's because they value their positions of power more than they value the government recovering faster. Boehner couldn't give one fuck if 50,000 families lose their homes because of his dragging his feet. He's still the speaker.

That is sabotage.

Taxes don't need to be raised one bit. If anything we should cut capital gains rates. Democrats can barely wait to be out of a recession before they are trying to take more of our money. They don't care if taxes hurt the economy as long as they can steal their "fair share" from the "rich" and fund their pet projects

That is sabotage!
(I think I'm getting the hang of your boilerplate outrage)

[Lobohan]

Originally Posted by yorick73

The sad part is there was more news on the Jobs bill in that opinion piece than in both the ABC piece and the Whitehouse page combined. The Jobs bill was nothing more than a second Obama stimulus that was to be paid for by raising taxes. You should have the brains to know that any Whitehouse release will be propaganda regardless of the administration. ABC news shamelessly acts as nothing but a press agent for Obama these days so I'm not really surprised they don't report on what is really in the bill. All you have to do is flip through the actual bill in order to see which of those links provides more information. Go ahead and have a look.

The part of your statement I find most amusing is your foaming at the mouth over a link! After linking to, and defending, that ridiculus Rex Nutting story stating that Obama has presided over the slowest growth in spending since the 1950's you simply are not qualified to judge what is ignorant or intelligent.

You still on that? You're wrong, reread the thread.

You should be embarrased by that link. I've given you two chances to defend that nonsense but you've managed to "lose track" of both threads. I'm not surprised...I would have disappeared from those threads like you did instead of trying to defend that BS link.

I didn't dissapear from that thread. I gave you a cite that Politifact found it mostly true. When it was clear that you had no intention of honestly debating the subject, I lost interest.

You're wrong. Grow up and admit it. And take it to the other thread, this thread isn't about your embarrassing pratfalls. It's about the GOP fuckhammering the economy.

Well, maybe I would have just admitted I was wrong and should have used my brain just a little before falling for such nonsense....that way I could save a little face.

Derp?

That's EVIL? You sound like a grade school student. Use your brain!

I'm trying, I assure you.

Defaulting on the debt was not going to happen regardless. We could have paid to service the debt by making cuts elsewhere but, as is typical for the Democrats, they didn't want to lower spending anywhere else.

You can't raise the debt limit with cuts without damaging the economy. You don't appear to understand that much of economy is dependent on govt. spending.

I'll have to agree with Obama on this one:

Ah, so the instance we are in recovery the Dems want to increase taxes. Do you realize how stupid that is? Why hamstring the economy the minute it starts improving? That is sabotage!

Increasing the top marginal rate 3% would generate much more money than the minimal damage it would do to the economy. Again, you are operating under conservative misinformation here.

Taxes don't need to be raised one bit. If anything we should cut capital gains rates. Democrats can barely wait to be out of a recession before they are trying to take more of our money. They don't care if taxes hurt the economy as long as they can steal their "fair share" from the "rich" and fund their pet projects

See above. You are operating under a false assumption that raising taxes is bad in all instances. You're incorrect.

[yorick73]

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

You said that any Republican would prefer to see the economy stay bad for the next seven months, at least. That's real hardship for millions of people, just for them to win a few elections. That's party before country.

That's not what I said. If the economy is going to improve on it's own (which eventually always happens) then any party would prefer that it happen on their watch as opposed to their opponents watch. That's common sense and pure luck with respect to timing. That goes for Democrats as well as Republicans.

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

You also said they'd be happy to accept the credit. If you have any belief in cause-and-effect, then some things must be better for the economy than others. Should we at least learn from this moment in history to see what works and what doesn't? Nah, Republicans will take credit regardless of the reason, if they can. Who cares what works, they're gonna push the same policies they always have, reality be damned. That's ideology before facts.

Either party would be happy to accept the credit. That is the nature of politics. If you cannot grasp that small point then we should just stop right there. We should learn what works and what does not. I think we've learned that Obama's policies have done nothing to improve the economy during the last 3 years. Will Democrats admit that? Nah, they will try to take whatever credit they can squeeze out of the ever-so-slight recovery, reality be damned. That's ideology before facts.

Simple question: Has either party ever admitted that their basic positions are flawed and do not work? Ever? This is why it is up the us, the people who make up this country, to determine what works. All we have in Washington is temporary politicians with the ability to do a lot of damage in a very short period of time. These politicians are there to get as much money and amass as much power as they can. Usually by the time we realize the damage they have caused they are long gone. THIS is the reason I don't want 535 hucksters running every aspect of my life.

[yorick73]

Originally Posted by Lobohan

You still on that? You're wrong, reread the thread.

I didn't dissapear from that thread. I gave you a cite that Politifact found it mostly true. When it was clear that you had no intention of honestly debating the subject, I lost interest.

You're wrong. Grow up and admit it. And take it to the other thread, this thread isn't about your embarrassing pratfalls. It's about the GOP fuckhammering the economy.

Funny how you just completely ignored any argument on the subject. Of course, you claimed you "lost track" of the thread and then quickly lost track of two threads simultaneously. I'll admit it is a convenient way to get around trying to argue a position that you discover is complete BS without having to admit how naive you are for posting it. Congrats!

Of course you never actually debated me in either thread. You ran like a dog with its tail between its legs.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

You can't raise the debt limit with cuts without damaging the economy. You don't appear to understand that much of economy is dependent on govt. spending.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it is not possible. All we had to do was cut the stimulus bloat from individual agencies. Dems didn't even have the courage to do that.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

Increasing the top marginal rate 3% would generate much more money than the minimal damage it would do to the economy. Again, you are operating under conservative misinformation here.

Are you sure about that? I think we should wait until the recovery has legs before we start stealing from the rich again. How about cutting spending? Does that ever cross the mind of a Leftist?

Originally Posted by Lobohan

See above. You are operating under a false assumption that raising taxes is bad in all instances. You're incorrect.

No, I'm operating under the correct assumption that raising taxes when the economy is still in such bad shape and the recovery is so anemic is a very stupid move.

That is sabotage!

[Lobohan]

Originally Posted by yorick73

Funny how you just completely ignored any argument on the subject. Of course, you claimed you "lost track" of the thread and then quickly lost track of two threads simultaneously. I'll admit it is a convenient way to get around trying to argue a position that you discover is complete BS without having to admit how naive you are for posting it. Congrats!

Of course you never actually debated me in either thread. You ran like a dog with its tail between its legs.

I'll leave it to the peanut gallery. You're pretty obviously wrong in those threads and are only arguing so you'll get the last word. But how about this thread, the one where you're currently getting trounced?

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it is not possible. All we had to do was cut the stimulus bloat from individual agencies. Dems didn't even have the courage to do that.

You can't just cut bloat from individual agencies. We're talking over a trillion dollars. It would cause the economy to slide back into recession.

Are you sure about that? I think we should wait until the recovery has legs before we start stealing from the rich again. How about cutting spending? Does that ever cross the mind of a Leftist?

We have already cut spending a great deal. Cutting spending means putting public sector workers out of jobs. Those workers being out of work decreases demand. That makes the economy worse.

No, I'm operating under the correct assumption that raising taxes when the economy is still in such bad shape and the recovery is so anemic is a very stupid move.

Assume what you will. You are likely to be wrong, however.

That is sabotage!

No, it's you not understanding the issues and assuming that the people who are making legitimate arguments in this thread are as ignorant as you are.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by yorick73

Taxes don't need to be raised one bit. If anything we should cut capital gains rates.

For what purpose?

[yorick73]

Originally Posted by Lobohan

I'll leave it to the peanut gallery. You're pretty obviously wrong in those threads and are only arguing so you'll get the last word. But how about this thread, the one where you're currently getting trounced?

One of the threads is this one on page 2 and the other is here. Sure, invite the peanut gallery to view how you duck and run while getting trounced by even other lefties for believing that nonsense.

If I'm so obviously wrong then I would only assume you could be bothered to respond to me and many others that pointed out how ridiculous that analysis by Nutting is. You seem to talk big, post often, but have very little in the way of analytical thought or the ability to see through BS.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

You can't just cut bloat from individual agencies. We're talking over a trillion dollars. It would cause the economy to slide back into recession.

Government spending is not the solution. You can cut some bloat from individual agencies in exchange for a debt ceiling increase. That's called compromise.

One of the most ignorant things I read on these boards is the idea that any government spending will stimulate the economy. You have fallen into this same mindless trap. If any government spending is so good for the economy then why all the gnashing of teeth over war spending or medicare part D. Both are unfunded so they must be good for the economy.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

We have already cut spending a great deal. Cutting spending means putting public sector workers out of jobs. Those workers being out of work decreases demand. That makes the economy worse.

We haven't cut shit and you know it. 1 trillion over 10 years? And part of that is counting the ending of wars as savings. It's a shell game and everyone knows it.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

Assume what you will. You are likely to be wrong, however.

No, it's you not understanding the issues and assuming that the people who are making legitimate arguments in this thread are as ignorant as you are.

Big talk and no substance...that is your trademark. You probably don't realize that bluster without substance just makes you look silly.

[Honesty]

Originally Posted by yorick73

That's common sense. How does the government raise revenue? Tax, borrow or print money. Each of these results in an equivalent decrease in private spending. Taxes remove money from the private sector. Printing money decreases the value of the currency. Borrowed money needs to be paid back through one of the other two mechanisms. Make sense?

WTF are you talking about? I think it's hilarious that we have a Federal Reserve that gives damn-near free money to banks at 0.25% interest who, turn around, and charge american citizens 200 - 300% markup. Where's your outrage? That's damn-near free money. Fuck the private sector. The U.S has consistently did better when the government had control of the private sector (See World War II). Also, if you or anyone else is scared of the government or think it's growing like a metastatic cancer. Stop it. I can assure you, that Uncle Sam will not jump into a Gundam mobile suit and kill you (or your grandchildren) for your hard-earned money. Give me a nationalized bank, oil company, or better yet, allow U.S citizens to open an account with the Fed. IMO, the reason people hate the government is that it's 100% more efficient than the private sector. The U.S has been "incorporated" since 1776 - there ain't a private company alive that has that kind of staying power. The reason the private sector exist is because of government, not the other way around. Try to remember that.