Story Memes or Themes You Just Can't Stand

[LC Strawhouse]

"Puzzle movies" - there was a tragedy, nobody knows what happened, the cops have a witness who can't or won't talk, they run through 50 different scenarios of what MAYBE happened, then at the very end there's a flashback that shows what REALLY happened. Blah blah blah... film school crap.

Also, movies that are essentially memoirs of the screenwriter and his buddies running around town in the good old days. I think every major city in the US and Europe has dozens of these movies made as tributes. Again, mostly worthless for an audience with no personal connection to those people.

[gravitycrash]

White people fucking up or taking advantage of everybody's obviously superior misunderstood culture.

Sure there has been plenty of history but beating that drum endlessly gets tiresome.

Aliens don't always escape whitey's wrath either. Avatar is the latest example.

[salinqmind]

The son or daughter who has left a dysfunctional family and gone on to make a better life is called 'home' when parent has one foot in grave. Much heavy dialogue, weeping, forgiveness as dysfunctional parent kicks off, and son or daughter is a better person for having learned important life lesson. "Your crazy, mean, squalid old dad is in the hospital. You have to come home, Bob, to handle affairs/reach forgiveness/take over the family farm or business."

[Der Trihs]

The scenario where women have created an all-female or nearly so society after men have most or all died off or the women went off and created their own male-free society, and the resulting female run society is nicer, kinder, more enlightened, more environmentally enlightened, and in general better in all ways than a society with those evil filthy men running around. And the related trope with all-male societies that are hyperwarlike, tyrannical and randomly destructive. And the other related trope where the men are all gone because some faction of women killed them off, and the female population in general doesn't care or actively approves of it.

Shows where the tough women ("Vasquez Always Dies") and the sexually active women die first; or worse, exclusively.

Originally Posted by runner pat

Hijack: The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump by Harry Turtledove, turns this upside down. All deities that have ever been worshiped are real and more or less on an equal footing. Magic is real and replaces many of our technologies with a magical equivalent.

I have that book actually; it's pretty good.

[salinqmind]

Oh. And The Troublesome Little Sister. Let's not forget the Troublesome Little Sister. The older sister (usually) gets custody of younger sister after parents die in tragic car crash. Little sister acts out, butts in, drinks all the liquor, smuggles in boyfriends, royally messes up her sibling's romantic life, makes trouble in school, needs supervision, is staggering through life with a bucket over her head, adrift - and most importantly: gets kidnapped by The Villain or otherwise needs a dramatic rescue. Because FAMILY is all that matters.

[salinqmind]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

The scenario where women have created an all-female or nearly so society after men have most or all died off or the women went off and created their own male-free society

Planet Earth! 1974 TV movie, I think, starring John Saxon and Diana Muldaur! All the men were slaves of the women and they were called "Dinks". "Bow to me, Dink!" "Where is my Dink?" "Dink, dink, dink!" OMG, we watched that on TV back in the day and were literally rolling on the floor laughing!!!

[DCnDC]

People behaving in ways directly contrary to all logic and reason, not to mention survival instinct, for no reason other than to drive the plot forward, like in the aforementioned Jurassic Park sequels ("I'm taking this baby T-Rex back to our camp to fix it's leg!"), or basically the entirety of Cloverfield ("I've got to rescue my not-girlfriend, who happens to live on the other side of that gigantic monster and all of its no-so-little spider-parasite thingies!" "I'm coming with you!" "Let's all go!" "Dark subway tunnel? I'm in!" "Let's all go!").

[Odesio]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

The scenario where women have created an all-female or nearly so society after men have most or all died off or the women went off and created their own male-free society, and the resulting female run society is nicer, kinder, more enlightened, more environmentally enlightened, and in general better in all ways than a society with those evil filthy men running around. And the related trope with all-male societies that are hyperwarlike, tyrannical and randomly destructive. And the other related trope where the men are all gone because some faction of women killed them off, and the female population in general doesn't care or actively approves of it.

Do you read a lot of lesbian utopian fiction?

[WOOKINPANUB]

Anything childbirth or labor related. Actually, I don't really need to see anyone under ten.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Odesio

Do you read a lot of lesbian utopian fiction?

That would be extreme feminist "utopian"*, not lesbian**; and not a lot. But I've come across the occasional sci-fi short story and leafed though some in the library. It kind of sticks in my head when I read some short story collection that just casually throws in a story where men are all rounded up and killed in order to end violence (killing men isn't violence, you see; it's only violence when men kill someone). I don't think I've ever read a story when exterminating all of womenkind is portrayed as a good thing.

* "Kill all men" isn't very utopian in my view

** Hating men is not the same as being attracted to women

[DCnDC]

When the hero corners the bad guy (after an epic chase and/or fight, during the course of which they both killed dozens of other people and caused massive property damage), and the partner/sidekick/freshly-rescued-damsel-in-distress stops him just before delivering the fatal blow because "that would make us just as bad as him," followed immediately by the bad guy attacking with a hidden weapon and the hero killing him anyway.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by MPB in Salt Lake

The Ugly Duckling, where a gorgeous actress is supposedly invisible to men, just because she has glasses, dresses in frumpy clothing, or wears her hair pinned up; Then suddenly, she takes off her glasses and viola

...and leaves the string quartet?

[Odesio]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

That would be extreme feminist "utopian"*, not lesbian**; and not a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_utopia

I'm not the one who came up with it. Of course the wiki article lists Nicola Griffith's Ammonite as an example of lesbian utopian fiction. I've read it but I don't see how it was a utopia. Her manless world still had violence.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Odesio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_utopia

I'm not the one who came up with it.

Huh. It's still not a very good term, since some don't have sex lesbian or otherwise.

[Rubixcube]

I despise all of the standard twist endings, including but not limited to.

"I'm actually the insane one/It was all in my head"

"I/he/she/it was actually dead the whole time/already died."

"This isn't the past/another planet it's actually ours in the future."

"The killer/villain I've been chasing is actually me."

"Oh my god it's actually our government/company/organization/etc. that has orchestrated it all."

Each of these and others have been around for decades and in some cases centuries. It's usually obvious when a story is looking to include a twist ending, and it's almost always one of the above. Plus nine times out of ten it's so poorly handled that you can figure out the ending less than half way through.

[andrew.]

well he's back in the OP mentioned the worst to me when I saw the thread title and I'd be interested in the Dope's take on this because no one I've expressed this to ever agrees with me.

A lot of people buy into the soppy, 'powerful' Chosen One routine, but I think this literary cop out has the opposite effect of what it's supposed to. If the hero is THE CHOSEN ONE, then surely, that invalidates every heroic thing they did (in a sense), because they were chosen to be the one. It doesn't mean anything. If you were singled out by some stars-aligning, magical, fateful mystery as the only one that can save the world/defeat the evil lord/whatever, then surely that's less of a great story than if some average nobody did what the hero accomplished?

To use Harry Potter as an example, and I know that it was explained in the books that technically the Prophecy didn't mean only Harry could kill Voldemort, but surely it would have been more heroic for someone like Ron Weasley to kill Voldy since he wasn't 'chosen' at all? He wasn't special or singled out at all? The whole Chosen One meme has always felt to me like it accomplishes the exact opposite of what it tries to and cheapens what otherwise may have been a good story.

Not sure if I explained that very well but I do get kind of a meh feel in any story where someone's actions and character aren't what make them special, and instead it's an accident of birth the same has blue eyes or brown hair.

[Andy L]

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness

3) Children's book authors don't do pedophilia. Instead they have the best friend, or the dog, die, thereby showing how literary and Full Of Value they are. Vomit.

Ah. "Death by Newberry Award" http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ByNewberyMedal

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Lacunae Matata

Just once, I'd like to read a book wherein the male and female protagonists politely loathe one another in the first chapter and the last and in every chapter in between.

Not a book, but you might like this tandem writing assignment.

[Andy L]

Originally Posted by salinqmind

Planet Earth! 1974 TV movie, I think, starring John Saxon and Diana Muldaur! All the men were slaves of the women and they were called "Dinks". "Bow to me, Dink!" "Where is my Dink?" "Dink, dink, dink!" OMG, we watched that on TV back in the day and were literally rolling on the floor laughing!!!

Created by Gene Roddenberry, by the way (perhaps a distant ancestor to the TNG episode "Angel One")

[Icerigger]

You-tube has everything, a Dink auction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XcXZqqzhO0

[kittenblue]

I am growing tired of the spunky, free-spirited, impractical woman who jumps to absurd conclusions about nearly everything.... "I see him give someone a hug....he must be having an affair with her/hiding his marriage and six children under ten/a secret agent!"... and then makes rash decisions about the relationship/business deal/mystery without asking questions or, better yet, LISTENING to anything anyone is telling her! She usually storms off in a huff, sells her car and moves 600 miles away to take a job as an art restorer in a tiny seaside village, and the Hero has to track her down to finally tie her to a chair and make her LISTEN as he explains that the woman he was hugging was the widow of his business partner's brother whom he saved from eviction by sacrificing his chance at the Big Contract in order to take her landlord to court (said landlord being the same man who was offering the Big Contract) But his willingness to sacrifice melted the landlord/client's heart and he got not only the Big Contract but a partnership and a corner office. And once she realizes how wrong she was in her assumptions they have amazing sex and get married.

[Kim o the Concrete Jungle]

Chosen child must save the world - & there is absolutely nothing special about this kid other than the author tells you he or she is special. Harry Potter & a million imitators, I'm thinking of you. Can't, I don't know, a grown adult fill this role sometimes? With actual special qualities?

To use Harry Potter as an example, and I know that it was explained in the books that technically the Prophecy didn't mean only Harry could kill Voldemort, but surely it would have been more heroic for someone like Ron Weasley to kill Voldy since he wasn't 'chosen' at all? He wasn't special or singled out at all? The whole Chosen One meme has always felt to me like it accomplishes the exact opposite of what it tries to and cheapens what otherwise may have been a good story.

I think JK Rowling's detractors always miss that the Harry Potter series is an ironic take on this meme. People keep telling Harry how special he is, but he's not special at all (even in his own eyes). He never achieves anything without help from other people, and when he tries to do something heroic it's often wrong. He's not even the only person in his world who could have been the "chosen one". Out of all the kids in the series, he's the last one to grow up and act like an adult.

He's just an ordinary kid -- a little on the thick side, but good at sports -- who's caught up in other people's machinations.

[outlierrn]

Gay male nurses

[Lasciel]

Originally Posted by Andy L

Ah. "Death by Newberry Award" http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ByNewberyMedal

total nitpick: Newbery award <--- only one r.

ETA - I fully support the vomit reaction. Even as a librarian, I tend to avoid Newberys unless someone I trust reads them first and tells me they're relatively ok. I have never actually really LIKED one, just found a few that aren't totally awful.

I like the Caldecotts much better.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by Lasciel

total nitpick: Newbery award <--- only one r.

ETA - I fully support the vomit reaction. Even as a librarian, I tend to avoid Newberys unless someone I trust reads them first and tells me they're relatively ok. I have never actually really LIKED one, just found a few that aren't totally awful.

I like the Caldecotts much better.

Hijack: Have you read The Tale of Despereaux? No book is for everyone, of course, but IMO it's among the all-time best children's novels, and while there's plenty of sadness in it, it's not of the pull-the-rug-out-from-under-you variety that plagues Newbery books ("What a cute doggie! Don't you love this doggie? Ooh, doggie kisses! DIE DOGGIE DIE!")

I can't off the top of my head think of any other Newbery book that comes close to Despereaux's wonderfulness. Except Holes, which is also pretty brilliant.

[FairyChatMom]

I absolutely hate plot lines where the government and/or military is always evil/corrupt/incompetent/omnipotent/unanswerable to anyone. Yes, there is corruption and incompetence within these, and many other, organizations, but unless you're telling a fantasy story, the story line is just stupid.

I spent 37 years either in or working with the military (and by default, somewhat close to the government) and for the most part, each is made up of ordinary people doing their jobs in order to follow a career path and earn a paycheck. And like any business, there are good and bad workers, good and bad managers, dedicated and wasteful and incompetent and hard-working and glad-to-be-there and just-putting-in-time employees.

I'll suspend disbelief a little bit in the interest of drama, but sometimes, I hurt myself rolling my eyes - I'm thinking specifically of E.T. - when the scary men in decontamination suits descended upon the house in the dark of night, not talking to anyone, not explaining anything, just coming in and grabbing the poor, cute little alien.

Or the conspiracies where the "government" is keeping a deep, dark secret from the governed. Get real - look at all the leaked information that shows up on the news, some of which should have been kept secret. What sane person believes that secrets can be kept? Ben Franklin hit the nail on the head - "Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead." No kidding...

[Tapiotar]

Originally Posted by kittenblue

I am growing tired of the spunky, free-spirited, impractical woman who jumps to absurd conclusions about nearly everything....

Totally agree with this one. On the same lines, the woman who is seen as strong, smart and independent because she jumps to conclusions, has irrational rages about most everything, and is violent. Please. That's the opposite of being smart and independent. Anita Blake, Vampire Hunter is an example.

I, also, hate the "chosen" child or teenager coming into his/her power. Can be a useful coming of age story for an actual child or teenager, but after reading dozens, if not hundreds, of iterations of the theme, and becoming an adult, it palls. It palls.

Exception: Greg Bear's The Infinity Concerto. (That, an its sequel, constitute Songs of Earth and Power. Recommended.) That continues to be brilliant. Oh, too, the kid was chosen not because he was fated so, but had the seeds of skills that could be developed, if he survived the training.

[freckafree]

Body switching. I'm sure it's tons of fun for the actors, especially on a series where the characters are well-established, but what a bore.

Alternate timelines, especially where the impending death of everyone is averted at the last second by whatever deus ex machina returns the timeline to "normal," as though nothing had ever happened.

[Andy L]

Originally Posted by Lasciel

total nitpick: Newbery award <--- only one r.

Thanks.

[outlierrn]

Originally Posted by DCnDC

When the hero corners the bad guy (after an epic chase and/or fight, during the course of which they both killed dozens of other people and caused massive property damage), and the partner/sidekick/freshly-rescued-damsel-in-distress stops him just before delivering the fatal blow because "that would make us just as bad as him," followed immediately by the bad guy attacking with a hidden weapon and the hero killing him anyway.

Oh hell yeah!

[Bozuit]

Originally Posted by well he's back

- life (or human civilization) couldn't possibly have happend without outside [alien] assistance. Throws almost all of know science out with the bathwater.

Does it, though? I don't know much about the subject but I didn't think there was much certainty about how life first began on this planet and the idea that it was at least somehow affected by something extraterrestrial (even if just a meteor made of the right stuff) was entirely possible.

Originally Posted by A Monkey With a Gun

I disagree with that one a bit. Humanizing the big bad guy is far worse. Sometimes you need a villain that is just plain evil. The Lord of the Rings would suck if Sauron wasn't the embodiment of pure evil.

Sauron had a difficult childhood. Morgoth killed his puppy and locked him in cellars to make him a man. Possibly a balrog touched him.

Originally Posted by andrew.

well he's back in the OP mentioned the worst to me when I saw the thread title and I'd be interested in the Dope's take on this because no one I've expressed this to ever agrees with me.

A lot of people buy into the soppy, 'powerful' Chosen One routine, but I think this literary cop out has the opposite effect of what it's supposed to. If the hero is THE CHOSEN ONE, then surely, that invalidates every heroic thing they did (in a sense), because they were chosen to be the one. It doesn't mean anything. If you were singled out by some stars-aligning, magical, fateful mystery as the only one that can save the world/defeat the evil lord/whatever, then surely that's less of a great story than if some average nobody did what the hero accomplished?

To use Harry Potter as an example, and I know that it was explained in the books that technically the Prophecy didn't mean only Harry could kill Voldemort, but surely it would have been more heroic for someone like Ron Weasley to kill Voldy since he wasn't 'chosen' at all?

I agree with your point, although often it's more that only one guy has any hope of doing something so it falls to them, but there's still a good chance of failure and it still requires them to do stuff right. Also there's always the possibility that the "chosen one" is chosen specifically for their attributes or potential, and so they have earned their victory in some respect. Finally, had Ron Weasley killed Voldemort my eyes would have rolled like they've never rolled before.

[Jormungandr]

Originally Posted by Snooooopy

I like plenty of shows involving a brilliant detective who regularly beats the cops at their own game, but I don't like shows where the police department is filled with incompetent boobs who wouldn't be able to feed or dress themselves if Mr. Wonderful hadn't decided to grace them with his perfect presence.

I hate the variant where the detectives are competent unless there's some big name guest star whose character makes look like it's their first day on the job. This happens a lot on "Law & Order: Special Victims Unit."

[Bozuit]

If the story is about police detectives, the uniformed police are bumbling incompetents, or at least only good for following instructions like "guard this door". If it's American, the FBI are soulless, interfering and way too anal, official and obtuse to get the job done the "right" way. The FBI tries to walk all over them but in the end the detectives prove their worth.

If it's about the FBI, all police mean well but are essentially useless at anything other than open and shut. They're quite likely resentful of the FBI's involvement but in the end realize their superiority. Other government agencies take on the "soulless" role occupied by the FBI in the detective stories.

If the story is about an intelligence agency or something along the lines of 24's CTU, the FBI take on the role occupied by detectives in the FBI stories - i.e. they mean well but they're cute and naive and really don't understand. There will probably still be some soulless interferers somewhere.

[Lasciel]

Originally Posted by Icerigger

You-tube has everything, a Dink auction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XcXZqqzhO0

Wow... After watching that and the intro to the actual movie, I don't know how I managed to live happily without knowing this existed. I am going to have to watch this, and I have a feeling that I'll have to add this to Logan's Run on my list of really awful movies that I like with no rational explanation at all.

[Lasciel]

Originally Posted by Lasciel

Wow... After watching that and the intro to the actual movie, I don't know how I managed to live happily without knowing this existed. I am going to have to watch this, and I have a feeling that I'll have to add this to Logan's Run on my list of really awful movies that I like with no rational explanation at all.

HOLY SHIT! Young Dr. Pulaski just bitchslapped a girl!

[jsgoddess]

I hate the "realistic" story with the supernaturally unkillable villain.

People really just aren't that hard to kill, writers! THEY AREN'T!

[Mister Rik]

Originally Posted by A Monkey With a Gun

I disagree with that one a bit. Humanizing the big bad guy is far worse. Sometimes you need a villain that is just plain evil. The Lord of the Rings would suck if Sauron wasn't the embodiment of pure evil.

Those types of stories, if done well, work. It allows the reader, or audience, to focus on what the heroes have to overcome.

Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series had a similarly "pure evil" villain (though the story and the villain's ultimate defeat were quite different).

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

The scenario where women have created an all-female or nearly so society after men have most or all died off or the women went off and created their own male-free society, and the resulting female run society is nicer, kinder, more enlightened, more environmentally enlightened, and in general better in all ways than a society with those evil filthy men running around.

Remember Queen Latifah's sitcom, Living Single, back in the 1990s? There was one scene (which was endlessly played in the commercials before the series launched, the only reason I remember it) where one of the female characters asked, "But what would the world be like without men?" and Latifah's character replied, "A bunch of fat, happy women, and no crime!"

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by DCnDC

When the hero corners the bad guy (after an epic chase and/or fight, during the course of which they both killed dozens of other people and caused massive property damage), and the partner/sidekick/freshly-rescued-damsel-in-distress stops him just before delivering the fatal blow because "that would make us just as bad as him," followed immediately by the bad guy attacking with a hidden weapon and the hero killing him anyway.

Extra points if we see the hero appear to deliver the coup de grâce with his sword/axe/gun/whatever followed by a slow pan to the squinting baddie looking surprised to still be alive.

[ianzin]

It was all a dream / hallucination / inside the mind of the insane guy. This never, ever makes sense. There are always elements of depth and detail that have nothing to do with the dream or hallucination, and in 99% of cases we hear dialogue or see things that the character supposedly dreaming / hallucinating would not be and could not be aware of. This plot device is just lazy writing by hack writers.

In sci-fi, the character is supposed to be a hologram or projection but looks just like any other character, and interacts with the environment just like any other character, and the only lip-service paid to the 'hologram' idea is a couple of cheap, do-it-on-a-laptop FX shots per series. Holograms and projections do not look the same as 3D solid objects under any conditions.

[MaxTheVool]

So we start with a premise that there are vampires in the world which have remained hidden from the population as a whole. Now, this may be totally overdone by now, but there's a certain logic to it:
(a) vampires look just like humans, so they CAN remain hidden
(b) but they do have some serious vulnerabilities, so it is to their BENEFIT to remain hidden

I'm OK with this premise, and am willing to enjoy fiction with that as the backdrop.

However, we often go from there (I'm looking at you, Buffy (which I love), True Love (which I enjoyed for a while), Twilight (which I've never read), and the pulpy "The President's Vampire" series) to "oh, and every other supernatural thing under the sun also exists", which just makes no sense at all. There's no way that people can learn to cast magic spells and there are thousands of species of humanoid demons, some of them friggin' enormous, and some people turn into wolves every full moon... and it all still remains secret.

[Typo Knig]

Have we done "Eeeeviil Scientists Who Want To Rule The World" yet? There might be one scientist alive now who wants to rule the world, but he can't dress himself. The rest of the scientists want to rule their granting agency. Need to derail a scientists' coup? Fully fund their labs, and they'll never bother you again.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

The magic-in-the-real-world stories where the various gods and spirits of myth are real, but it just happens that the Christian god is the One True God, Supreme Being & creator of the universe, while the other gods re just powerful supernaturals.

What sort of stories have this meme? I've never heard of any.

[MacSpon]

SF stories where Humanity Triumphs Against Impossible Odds.

The aliens invade, or come into conflict with Earth in some way, or maybe just look at us funny, and suddenly Earth is in a desperate conflict against an immeasurably (technologically) superior enemy against which we cannot possibly win. But of course we do, because we're sneakier, or luckier, or gutsier, or something.

Bonus hate points if we only win because humanity is Special, and our win was Fated To Be.

...

Actually, this hate can easily extend to sports stories where the heroes come from far behind to win competitions that they couldn't possibly have won. There are a lot of those, too.

The SF version is presumably supposed to make us feel good about ourselves. The sports version is presumably supposed to make us feel good about ... well, something. But what it mostly makes me feel is angry that the writer cheated.

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

What sort of stories have this meme? I've never heard of any.

The TV show Supernatural springs to mind. Tulpas and ghosts and genus loci etc... are all real - but naturally a lone angel can destroy a roomful of actual Hindu gods without breaking a sweat (actually, I forget the exact circumstances of that particular scene, but it was very, very when I watched it)

[Blank Slate]

I'm tired of seeing petite women flipping, punching-out, delivering devastating kicks and just generally beating the shit out of men twice their size, because...they know Kung Fu or some shit. It's just unrealistic and over-done. The choreography usually requires the male combatants to stand still with their arms spread wide, like woah, I can't defend myself against her blazing speed and power. Meanwhile, the heroine finishes off the hapless guy with a painfully slow and obvious roundhouse kick to the ear. Uh huh, sure.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Mister Rik

Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series had a similarly "pure evil" villain (though the story and the villain's ultimate defeat were quite different).

I disagree with your interpretation there pretty strongly. In fact...

SPOILER:

...the climax of the series requires that the other characters humanize Ineluki, and forgive him for his evil. Ineluki has been deeply, even totally, corrupted, but all of his actions stem from what were originally noble impulses: heroism, loyalty to his people, a refusal to surrender in the face of incredible odds.

As Binabik said, "Once, he loved his people very much."

[Mister Rik]

Originally Posted by Miller

I disagree with your interpretation there pretty strongly. In fact...

SPOILER:

...the climax of the series requires that the other characters humanize Ineluki, and forgive him for his evil. Ineluki has been deeply, even totally, corrupted, but all of his actions stem from what were originally noble impulses: heroism, loyalty to his people, a refusal to surrender in the face of incredible odds.

As Binabik said, "Once, he loved his people very much."

Oh yes, I understood that completely, and agree with your interpretation. I suppose I misspoke by using the word "similarly", which may have suggested that I thought he was the same kind of "pure evil" as Sauron. I simply meant that he

SPOILER:

had become "pure evil" by the time the reader "meets" him. We learn of his motivations as the story progresses, but his original motives don't lessen the evil he is and doesduring the course of the story.

[Cumberdale]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

What sort of stories have this meme? I've never heard of any.

An episode of Zena had this. Zena was trying to prevent a man killing his child because a "god" told him to. In the end you hear a voice say basically, nevermind, then it is implied the one true god stopped it. And this show had other gods everywhere, yet the Christian one was actually real. It has been a while since I saw it, but that episode stood out for that reason.

[Cumberdale]

I left out that it was obviously a take on the Abraham and Isaac story.

[Saint Cad]

The perpetual loser that fate always pisses on. Think Al from Married with Children or Alan from Two and a Half Men. In fact, 2 1/2 Men is virtually unwatchable for me because the situation Alan is in with an $4000/mo alimony and losing his condo after his new wife spent the rest of the money and a second alimony for a 4 month marriage is unbelievable to the point of not being entertaining.