Why do we flat out reject CT's? [Conspiracy Theories]

[FixMyIgnorance]

Batman: Pretty fishy what happened to me on that ladder.
Gordon: You mean, where there's a fish, there could be a Penguin.
Robin: But wait! It happened at sea! See? "C" for Catwoman!
Batman: Yet — that exploding shark was pulling my leg!
Gordon: The Joker!
O'Hara: It all adds up to a sinister riddle... Riddle-er. Riddler?
— Batman: The Movie

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BatDeduction

[Jackmannii]

It's tragic magic
There are no coincidences
But sometimes the pattern is more obvious

"Keynsham" - the Bonzo Dog Band

[GIGObuster]

Heh, I love that term of "Bat Deduction"

Commissioner Gordon [after that exchange with Batman and Robin from FixMyIgnorance]: "The sum of the angles of that rectangle [of evil] is too monstrous to contemplate!"

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

You then claim that that is evidence that the same groups still exist in a cabal to govern the entire world, themselves, in a way that is neither democratic nor republican.

Stink Fish Pot wrote:

Originally Posted by Stink Fish Pot

There are a number of events out there that I think prove that the US govt had manipulated events for its own good

I wrote:

Originally Posted by Kozmik

There are a number of events out there that I think prove that the Illuminati had manipulated governments for its own ends.

Control the governments of the world and control the world.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Control the governments of the world and control the world.

Except there's no evidence of that happening - particularly not by a group that was stamped out 200 years ago. Are you going to pony up at some point, or are you going to continue to insist these kinds of absurdities are "possible?"

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by Marley23

are you going to continue to insist these kinds of absurdities are "possible?"

Yes, because you claim this:

Originally Posted by Marley23

Whether it existed in secret after 1785 is another one and I think the answer to that is also no, although I think it was revived briefly a few decades later.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Yes, because you claim this:

I'm getting tired of the incomplete answers to questions nobody was asking, and I probably should have given up on this deliberately vague nudge-nudging several pages ago. I'm going to ask one more time before I quit: what is your specificevidence that the specific Illuminati existed after 1785 and that the NWO exists and that the two things are connected?

[XT]

Hey Marley...why DO we flat out reject CT's??

-XT

[DrFidelius]

Originally Posted by XT

Hey Marley...why DO we flat out reject CT's??

-XT

Becauses all the smoke and mirrors seen by the followers of Conspiracy Theory seems to be there to hide the fact that there are no smoke and mirrors. Every once in a while they do cry out that the emperor has no clothes, but only when everyone else can see that the emperor is actually naked as a jaybird and sitting in a bath.

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by Marley23

what is your specificevidence that the specific Illuminati existed after 1785

A letter by George Washington, a post by you, and a cite in the Encyclopaedia Britannica.

You think that the Illuminati did not exist after 1785 and you think that "it was revived briefly a few decades later". Well, which is it?!

In volume 22, page 226, Encyclopaedia Britannica:

The moderate and constitutional demands of the Masonic lodges began to be accompanied by more democratic demands, and there in Milan, Bologna, Rome, and Naples cells of Illuminati, republican freethinkers, after the pattern recently established in Bavaria by Adam Weishaupt.

The Elector of Bavaria banned the Illuminati, apparently in a March 2, 1785 edict. The Illuminati was banned in Bavaria; however, the Illuminati was not banned in Italy.

There is evidence that the Illuminati was banned in Bavaria in 1785 and that the Illuminati was revived a few decades later in Italy.

[XT]

So, you are just making a pedantic point about the Illuminati possibly existing (briefly) in Italy after the 1785 date then?

-XT

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

A letter by George Washington

Wasn't this dealt with already? He never said the organization still existed. He said the ideas did, and those ideas were not unique.

You think that the Illuminati did not exist after 1785 and you think that "it was revived briefly a few decades later". Well, which is it?!

You can't seriously be basing on argument on this - if you were, it wouldn't have taken you a week to ask me this. I said in my first post on the subject that I thought I remembered that they were revived later. I didn't repeat that comment and contradicted it repeatedly, and that should've been a hint that I'd figured out I was wrong.

the Illuminati was not banned in Italy.

The fact that they were not banned is not evidence they still existed after the bulk of the organization was suppressed. A much simpler conclusion is that they fell apart after the ban.

There is evidence that the Illuminati was banned in Bavaria in 1785 and that the Illuminati was revived a few decades later in Italy.

You must've accidentally hit "Submit" before the part where you posted the evidence they still existed in Italy, the evidence for the NWO, and the evidence that ties them together. I assume you'll be posting that in a minute.

[DrFidelius]

But the Illuminati who became the NWO are not the same Illuminati who were banned, but rather another group who adopted the name of the Illuminati to hide their actual origins as the New World Order.

[JohnT]

It was the 18th-century version of Identity Theft.

Damn... they are good!

[tomndebb]

Probably because CTs are proposed and defended by people who are incapable of putting together a rational thought, seeing all opposing evidence as proof that the "conspiracy" was successful.

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by Marley23

The fact that they were not banned is not evidence they still existed after the bulk of the organization was suppressed

in Bavaria.

Originally Posted by Stink Fish Pot

There are a number of events out there that I think prove that the US govt had manipulated events for its own good

Because there are a number of events out there that prove that the US government had manipulated events for its own good, there are a number of events out there that I think prove that the Illuminati had manipulated governments for its own ends.

[Jackmannii]

Why do we flat out dismiss the idea that governments have manipulated the Illuminati for their own ends? Such a convenient scapegoat.

You have to admit that it's possible, or else prove me wrong.

[GIGObuster]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

in Bavaria.

Because there are a number of events out there that prove that the US government had manipulated events for its own good, there are a number of events out there that I think prove that the Illuminati had manipulated governments for its own ends.

Uh, no, many of those events actually make the situations worse for the rulers of the day, not to mention that for several of them there is plenty of evidence that those conspiracies are based on retarded ideas (like the Clinton body count)

Just looking at history I do remember that there is evidence that the assassin of Archduke Ferdinand that precipitated WWI was helped by the local secret intelligence in Sarajevo, and yet the results are with us to this day, the rulers of the day lost power and even the winners of the wars of the 20th century are now having trouble keeping everything together. Point being is that all glory is fleeting. The idea that a single group can influence all important events to a goal that benefits them forever ignores that even dynasties die out.

[Jackmannii]

***absolutely true story follows***

Exactly 29 minutes after I last posted, I was driving down the Interstate* when I saw two unmarked black helicopters passing overhead. Not only that, there were chemtrails in the sky at the time.

Coincidence? I think not.

*not safe to provide the exact location.

[DrFidelius]

29 minutes? 29 minutes is 1740 seconds, and 1740 was only 8 years before Adam Weishaupt was born!

[FinnAgain]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

*not safe to provide the exact location.

Jack, don't play dumb.
The Illuminati^tm brand fillings in your teeth already let us track you by GPS, among other things.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

It is possible that there is a conspiracy involving the development of weapons technologies (Manhattan Project). One example is HAARP.

Really?

The High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) is a scientific research program designed to study the ionosphere of the earth and its effects on communication. HAARP is essentially a large ELF radio wave generator in Alaska funded by the Department of Defense in conjunction with the University of Alaska. It was started in 1993 and is scheduled to run at least 20 years.

Some scientists criticized HAARP, since they worried that a similar device using more energy could be used as a weapon and that the true purpose of the experiment has not been fully revealed. It has also been criticized as a boondoggle costing many times more than its initial budget. But mostly, HAARP is a popular target for conspiracy theorists who believe that ELFs can be used for mind control and weather control - it's even been blamed for the 2008 Chinese, 2010 Haitian and March 2011 Japanese earthquakes.

Its attraction to conspiracists, its overextended budget and its sweeping scope make HAARP very similar to the Large Hadron Collider.

Originally Posted by Kozmik

That Jesus had a wife and had children is possible and there could be a conspiracy around this possibility.

Not a 2,000-year-old conspiracy, there couldn't. And the only known real one turned out to be a hoax.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Veneriable Slacks

Yes, CT's are very scary indeed for the masses. Human sheople are genetically geared for following what "authority" says along with staying inside their comfort zones. In 1st grade, I refused to play checkers on the black squares, and would try to convince others to play on the red squares. Reactions varied from confusion to shaking in fear over breaking the rule of playing on the black squares.

I shudder to think what aliens must say about us humans when they email back to their mother planet.

Do not wake the sheeple.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Orwell comes to mind.

Orwell was not a conspiracy theorist and had nothing good to say about such.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

From Wikipedia, List of conspiracy theories:

New World Order - possible

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

But why does anybody have anything against it?! Serious question. Anything that might eventually produce a real world government falls under the heading of "best-case scenario."

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Because it is a conspiracy. Glib answer. A full and considered answer forthcoming.

Still waiting.

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

Just looking at history I do remember that there is evidence that the assassin of Archduke Ferdinand that precipitated WWI was helped by the local secret intelligence in Sarajevo, and yet the results are with us to this day, the rulers of the day lost power and even the winners of the wars of the 20th century are now having trouble keeping everything together. Point being is that all glory is fleeting. The idea that a single group can influence all important events to a goal that benefits them forever ignores that even dynasties die out.

From the 1994 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 29, Page 961:

With Serbia already much aggrandized by the two Balkan Wars (1912-13, 1913), Serbian nationalists turned their attention back to the idea of "liberating" the South Slavs of Austria-Hungary. Colonel Dragutin Dimitrijevic, head of Serbia's military intelligence, was also, under the alias "Apis", head of the secret society Union or Death, pledged to the pursuit of this pan-Serbian ambition. Believing that the Serbs' cause would be served by the death of the Austrian archduke Francis Ferdinand, heir presumptive to the Austrian emperor, Francis Joseph, and learning that the Archduke was about to visit Bosnia on a tour of military inspection, Apis plotted his assassination.

So here we have Colonel Dimitrijevic head of Serbia's military intelligence and also head of the secret society Union or Death plotting the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand. Colonel Dimitrijevic does not carry out the assassination - Gavrillo Princip does that - but from his unique position he is able to know the details about the Archduke that allow the assassination to be successful.

And his alias is Apis. I know at least one other secret society that uses aliases.

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Still waiting.

Other than the assassinations and the wars and the like, they are a nice group of folks.

[GIGObuster]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

From the 1994 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 29, Page 961:



So here we have Colonel Dimitrijevic head of Serbia's military intelligence and also head of the secret society Union or Death plotting the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand. Colonel Dimitrijevic does not carry out the assassination - Gavrillo Princip does that - but from his unique position he is able to know the details about the Archduke that allow the assassination to be successful.

And his alias is Apis. I know at least one other secret society that uses aliases.


Other than the assassinations and the wars and the like, they are a nice group of folks.

And you just repeated what I said, minus the observation that they did not endure nor got what they wanted, Serbia had even less independence after the wars and then they had to endure Slobodan Miloševic.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Other than the assassinations and the wars and the like, they are a nice group of folks.

Still waiting.

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by FinnAgain

Jack, don't play dumb.
The Illuminati^tm brand fillings in your teeth already let us track you by GPS, among other things.

Your naivete astounds me.

Non-sheeple have already had their horribly toxic amalgam fillings removed by trustworthy Biological Dentists. And the recommended twice-weekly bentonite clay detox baths are known to block GPS rays.

Ron Paul in 2012!!!

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

And you just repeated what I said, minus the observation that they did not endure nor got what they wanted, Serbia had even less independence after the wars and then they had to endure Slobodan Miloševic.

I'm going to add to the list of conspiracy theories that I got from Wikipedia.

I reject conspiracy theories involving the assassination of President John F. Kennedy; however, I do not reject conspiracy theories involving the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand. Perhaps now you can see why I do not reject conspiracy theories involving the New World Order. And the Federal Reserve System? Nothing to worry about. It's just a bank.


From Wikipedia, List of conspiracy theories:

World War I - conspiracy involving the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand -- real
New World Order - possible
Federal Reserve System - possible
False flag operations - 9/11 -- rejected
Wars - FDR having full knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack -- rejected
Coup d'etat - Operation Ajax -- real
Assassinations - JFK -- rejected
Clinton body count - rejected by Snopes
Barack Obama birth conspiracy theories - rejected by SDMB
Anti-semetic conspiracy theories - The Protocols of the Elders of Zion -- rejected as a forgery
Armenian International Conspiracy - rejected
"Babylon" - Haile Selassie did not die -- rejected
Eurabia - rejected
Arab fascist axis - Martin Bormann did not die - rejected
Baha'i - rejected
Apocalyptic prophecies - rejected
Bible conspiracy theory - Jesus had a wife -- possible
Catholicism as a veiled continuation of Babylonian paganism - rejected
Suppression of technologies - possible
Development of weapons technologies - Manhattan Project -- real
Weapons testing - possible
Surveillance, espionage and intelligence agencies - real
DTV transition - possible
Medicine - AIDS was "invented" -- rejected
Drug legalization - hemp competing with pulp paper -- rejected
Diet - rejected
Creation of diseases - AIDS is a man-made disease -- rejected
Water fluoridation - rejected
Traditional, natural and alternative medicines -- possible
Peak oil - possible
Real groups said to be involved in conspiracies - possible
Alleged groups associated with conspiracy theories - rejected
The Plan - rejected
Extraterrestrials - Roswell UFO incident -- rejected
Evil aliens - reptilians -- rejected
Miscellaneous - rejected
Moon landing conspiracy theories - rejected

Originally Posted by Telemark

Yup, that Wiki entry convinced me all right. It's possible according to random strangers on the internet.

With Wikipedia being the wave of the future and all, replacing Britannica, I figured Wikipedia would be the best reference source.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Perhaps now you can see why I do not reject conspiracy theories involving the New World Order.

But, once again, why are you against it? Even if by hook or by crook, anything that leads to world government is a good thing.

Originally Posted by Kozmik

And the Federal Reserve System? Nothing to worry about. It's just a bank.

It is not a conspiracy, at any rate. Neither were the First nor the Second Banks of the United States. Andrew Jackson was an idiot.

[GIGObuster]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

I'm going to add to the list of conspiracy theories that I got from Wikipedia.

I reject conspiracy theories involving the assassination of President John F. Kennedy; however, I do not reject conspiracy theories involving the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand. Perhaps now you can see why I do not reject conspiracy theories involving the New World Order. And the Federal Reserve System? Nothing to worry about. It's just a bank.

I do reject them because of the big elephant in the room, besides not having evidence beyond a local plot, when I look at history blown up conspiracy theories like that are the first propaganda tool for demagogues to take power, like in Germany when it became gospel that someone did back-stab them after the first world war, guess who they blamed as the ones that controlled everything (and the banks)?

No, even if you want to ignore it there are more plausible and limited explanations for assassination plots and manipulative conspiracy theories, many times the result of the ones that attempt them is so convoluted and the opposite of what the plotters intended, that one has to conclude that the truth is what we see: powerful men that also are incompetent and not as far seeing as you want them to be.

[FixMyIgnorance]

I honestly don't know why you guys are bothering. You absolutely cannot change one's mind once they've adopted this ridiculous CT mindset. They can't put together a consistent argument, let alone understand how to interpret the merits of evidence.

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

With Wikipedia being the wave of the future and all, replacing Britannica, I figured Wikipedia would be the best reference source.

A source without data isn't a source.

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Even if by hook or by crook, anything that leads to world government is a good thing.

Why is it always assumed that world government necessarily leads to pacifism? As if all the solutions to the problems of the 242 countries of the world are to be found in world government.

Originally Posted by Telemark

A source without data isn't a source.

Duly noted.

Originally Posted by FixMyIgnorance

I honestly don't know why you guys are bothering. You absolutely cannot change one's mind once they've adopted this ridiculous CT mindset. They can't put together a consistent argument, let alone understand how to interpret the merits of evidence.

I will have a consistent argument once I reply to this post:

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

I do reject them because of the big elephant in the room, besides not having evidence beyond a local plot, when I look at history blown up conspiracy theories like that are the first propaganda tool for demagogues to take power, like in Germany when it became gospel that someone did back-stab them after the first world war, guess who they blamed as the ones that controlled everything (and the banks)?

No, even if you want to ignore it there are more plausible and limited explanations for assassination plots and manipulative conspiracy theories, many times the result of the ones that attempt them is so convoluted and the opposite of what the plotters intended, that one has to conclude that the truth is what we see: powerful men that also are incompetent and not as far seeing as you want them to be.

[GIGObuster]

And while you are at it, don't forget to read about the harm many do suffer for swallowing conspiracies like that when they follow them against all evidence:

http://whatstheharm.net/conspiracytheories.html

The point here is that until there is no chaos, conspiracies will only affect a few clueless people, but once disaster strikes history shows that then many conspiracy theories are used very effectively by demagogues to mobilize thousands if not millions that can be misled easily when very difficult times come.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Why is it always assumed that world government necessarily leads to pacifism?

Pacifism or not, it leads to peace. And environmental problems do not respect political boundaries -- the world is like a spiderweb where whatever happens at location A has some effect at location B -- we need some kind of global EPA with real teeth. Once again, why do you have anything against this "New World Order," if it exists?

[GIGObuster]

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

The point here is that until there is no chaos

Dang, change that to "until there is chaos"

[GIGObuster]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Pacifism or not, it leads to peace. And environmental problems do not respect political boundaries -- the world is like a spiderweb where whatever happens at location A has some effect at location B -- we need some kind of global EPA with real teeth. Once again, why do you have anything against this "New World Order," if it exists?

I would make the point also that it will not be the countries governments the reason that could cause a world government to be formed, but it will be because many corporations are doing such unsavory stuff at a global level that the governments and even other corporations that will be affected negatively will unite to reign the rogue companies in.

[XT]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Pacifism or not, it leads to peace. And environmental problems do not respect political boundaries -- the world is like a spiderweb where whatever happens at location A has some effect at location B -- we need some kind of global EPA with real teeth. Once again, why do you have anything against this "New World Order," if it exists?

The simple answer is that if a NWO type organization exists (which it doesn't), then they are working behind the scenes and in the shadows, and are doing so for their own ends and using distasteful methods to accomplish those ends. We aren't talking about nations (and their citizens) engaged in wanting to form a world government, but a few (supposed) shadowy and extremely powerful people trying to do this for their own gain and pretty much against the interests and certainly without the knowledge of the vast majority of the citizens in the countries being bonded together by fiat and the will of a powerful few. If you don't see why this is a Bad Idea(tm) then I'm not sure what more to tell you.

Thankfully, it's a load of horseshit, so not something we need to fret about.

-XT

[Jackmannii]

We flat out reject Conspiracy Theories because we are in the pay of They Who Do Not Want You To Know.

You'll just have to accept it.

[XT]

They have been slow in their payments to me, then, so not sure if I can continue to go along. I might have to come out with real evidence demonstrating that many of the more popular Conspiracy Theories are, in fact, real and....

...

Is that a helicopter I hear in the distance? I'll get back to you guys later...

-XT

[FixMyIgnorance]

I think ultimately the point is that if a conspiracy is so secret that its effect on the world is indistinguishable from not having that conspiracy in the first place, why bother assuming it exists?

Same logic applies to Santa Claus, God, etc.

Unfortunately, God happens to be a crazy exception to this sort of mindset.

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by XT

The simple answer is that if a NWO type organization exists (which it doesn't), then they are working behind the scenes and in the shadows, and are doing so for their own ends and using distasteful methods to accomplish those ends. We aren't talking about nations (and their citizens) engaged in wanting to form a world government, but a few (supposed) shadowy and extremely powerful people trying to do this for their own gain and pretty much against the interests and certainly without the knowledge of the vast majority of the citizens in the countries being bonded together by fiat and the will of a powerful few. If you don't see why this is a Bad Idea(tm) then I'm not sure what more to tell you.

Thankfully, it's a load of horseshit, so not something we need to fret about.

-XT

Originally Posted by Stink Fish Pot

There are a number of events out there that I think prove that the US govt had manipulated events for its own good

Originally Posted by Kozmik

There are a number of events out there that I think prove that the Illuminati had manipulated governments for its own ends.

At the lowest level is governments, at a higher level is the Illuminati, and at the highest level is someone - known to no one - manipulating the Illuminati for their own design.

[FixMyIgnorance]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

At the lowest level is governments, at a higher level is the Illuminati, and at the highest level is someone - known to no one - manipulating the Illuminati for their own design.

Sorry, but now you're just making me laugh out loud

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

At the lowest level is governments, at a higher level is the Illuminati, and at the highest level is someone - known to no one - manipulating the Illuminati for their own design.

I am curious as to why you even bother believing this sort of thing.

[JohnT]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

I am curious as to why you even bother believing this sort of thing.

But below us, it's turtles, all the way down!

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

I do reject them because of the big elephant in the room,

Ok.

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

besides not having evidence beyond a local plot,

Ok.

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

when I look at history blown up conspiracy theories like that are the first propaganda tool for demagogues to take power,

There's propaganda for the people and then there's even propaganda for the propagandists.

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

like in Germany when it became gospel that someone did back-stab them after the first world war, guess who they blamed as the ones that controlled everything (and the banks)?

Who controlled them?

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

No, even if you want to ignore it there are more plausible and limited explanations for assassination plots and manipulative conspiracy theories, many times the result of the ones that attempt them is so convoluted and the opposite of what the plotters intended,

Gavrillo Princip was the assassin. Dragutin Dimitrijevic was the plotter. Who do you suppose was behind the plotter?

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

that one has to conclude that the truth is what we see:

Which is?

Originally Posted by GIGObuster

powerful men that also are incompetent and not as far seeing as you want them to be.

At the highest level, they are neither powerful nor competent.

[JohnT]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

At the lowest level is governments, at a higher level is the Illuminati, and at the highest level is someone - known to no one - manipulating the Illuminati for their own design.

But...

When this someone dies, who replaces him? How is this person notified that "The Ruler of Earth died and you're now in charge"? Certified mail? Western Union? Text message?

Are the Illuminati notified that they have a new master, or does this guy just secretly take over the reins?

I'm really interested in the succession issues these someones have dealt with for the past 200-odd years, and so secretly, too.

Enquiring minds want to know!

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

At the highest level, they are neither powerful nor competent.

So, based on the juxtaposition of this statement and the one to which you linked, someone totally unknown to the entire world, who is neither intelligent nor competent, has managed to acquire the power to direct all the world's activities, yet remain totally hidden from everyone including his (or her?) minions, despite the incompetence that he has displayed.

With that level of brilliant logic, I am beginning to see just why and how you have been holding on to your beliefs.