LBJ - Most Versatile Defender Ever

[The Other Jeffrey Lebowski]

In the current series between his Miami Heat and the Boston Celtics, Lebron James has,at different times, matched up against Rajon Rondo and Kevin Garnett, and not as a result of a switch due to any screen. That is simply incredible - the ability to guard against the 1 or the 5. There are plenty of great defenders historically who were versatile enough to check 3 positions - someone like Michael Jordan, or Scottie Pippen could handle 1-3, but would not be able to check the bigs; a player like Robert Horry could check 3-5, but would be a liability against the backcourt.
The only other players that I could come up with that would come close would be Dennis Rodman and the artist formerly known as Ron Artest, though they would possibly struggle against the 5's.
Who else would be in the discussion?

[mkecane]

Rodman was the first to come to mind, but I don't think he ever went 1-5 by design. I think back in his Minnesota days, Garnett could go 2-5. Barkley, maybe, could have gone 2-5, though he would surely be limited on the 2 and 5.

Sorry to jack this immediately, but was I the only one yelling at Lebron near the end of game...3?...when he had the last shot of regulation, I think, and was guarded by Rondo, and took a fade-away 3?!

[G0sp3l]

LBJ failing to box out Oswald allowed Nixon to score the game winner

Originally Posted by mkecane

Sorry to jack this immediately, but was I the only one yelling at Lebron near the end of game...3?...when he had the last shot of regulation, I think, and was guarded by Rondo, and took a fade-away 3?!

I was screaming right with you.

[davidw]

Magic Johnson could play the 1-5 position offensively, so I imagine he could have done so defensively. But defense wasn't much of a priority for Magic.

[The Other Jeffrey Lebowski]

Garnett is one of the greatest interior defenders ever, but his length would seem to be a hinderance outside of the paint, and as such I can't imagine him having had much success were he to defend against a speedy 1 or 2.
Magic, as is pointed out, was not defensive minded, though he most certainly possessed the tools to check any spot. His greatest liability to achieve here, imho, would have been his lateral movement.
Barkley is an interesting suggestion. Early in his career, he likely could've checked 4 spots reasonably well, but, like Magic, had a game that was more offense focused.
How about Durant? He has matched up on Parker a few times, no?

[Marley23]

The first person I thought of was Magic, since the foundation of his legend is that finals game where he subbed for Kareem. The other one who comes to mind is Oscar Robertson since he's the guy LeBron is most often compared to anyway. I can't say how either of them was used on defense. For all the attention that gets focused on his flaws, LeBron is one of the most talented and versatile players in the history of the league, and physically he's almost without compare in terms of his strength, size, speed and passing ability.

[etv78]

The "Big O" was the 1st one I thought of.

[brickbacon]

Originally Posted by Marley23

The first person I thought of was Magic, since the foundation of his legend is that finals game where he subbed for Kareem. The other one who comes to mind is Oscar Robertson since he's the guy LeBron is most often compared to anyway. I can't say how either of them was used on defense. For all the attention that gets focused on his flaws, LeBron is one of the most talented and versatile players in the history of the league, and physically he's almost without compare in terms of his strength, size, speed and passing ability.

I agree. But it's worth noting that Lebron would not generally cover a true center in the mold of a Tim Duncan or Shaq. Covering Garnett, or Amare, or someone like that requires a different skill set.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by brickbacon

I agree. But it's worth noting that Lebron would not generally cover a true center in the mold of a Tim Duncan or Shaq. Covering Garnett, or Amare, or someone like that requires a different skill set.

I think that's true because you'd prefer to have LeBron playing more on the perimeter. For the record, though, let's note that Duncan and Garnett and Stoudemire are all basically the same size (about 6'11" and 250 to 260 pounds) and you could have LeBron guard any of them if you needed to.

[brickbacon]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I think that's true because you'd prefer to have LeBron playing more on the perimeter. For the record, though, let's note that Duncan and Garnett and Stoudemire are all basically the same size (about 6'11" and 250 to 260 pounds) and you could have LeBron guard any of them if you needed to.

True, though it's a better fit though on a player like Garnett than Duncan. Since you mentioned size, its also worth noting James is 6'8" 250. So while he gives up 3 inches on those guys, the contrast is not as stark as someone like Jordan doing it at 6'6", 215. In fact, James covering Garnett is easier in some respects than Garnett covering Bynum who has an inch and 35lbs on him.

It's also worth noting that James is often covering these guys out of necessity as the Heat lack size.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by brickbacon

True, though it's a better fit though on a player like Garnett than Duncan. Since you mentioned size, its also worth noting James is 6'8" 250. So while he gives up 3 inches on those guys, the contrast is not as stark as someone like Jordan doing it at 6'6", 215. In fact, James covering Garnett is easier in some respects than Garnett covering Bynum who has an inch and 35lbs on him.

It's also worth noting that James is often covering these guys out of necessity as the Heat lack size.

Interesting point about the heights: Garnett is really 7 feet tall but insists on being listed at 6'11" for whatever weird psychological reason. I think he wants to be seen as an underdog trying to keep up with bigger guys and has to stay out of that Seven Footer category for that to work. Anyway it's working for him. I think Duncan is also taller than his listed height, but I'm not positive. In any case, yes, you'd prefer to have LeBron in more of a perimeter position because he can be so disruptive out there instead of down in the post, but he can guard taller guys if necessary. He's a bit shorter than they are, but he has that kind of build and he's very strong.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

I also think he's closer to 280 than 250. I wouldn't be shocked to find out that if you lined up Lebron and Ben Wallace, you'd find Lebron was taller and heavier. So he could defend in the post all the time if you really wanted him to, except that he handles the ball too much on offense. He'd have a stroke trying to defend the post and still be a primary ballhandler on offense.

He's the most versatile everything ever, is basically my opinion. I don't want to highjack the thread into a discussion about his popularity/reputation, but I think the fact that the weakest facet of his game is one-on-one halfcourt scoring obscures the mindboggling things he's constantly doing, his defense included. I think in terms of aggregate contributions over the course of a season he's the most valuable player that ever played.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Chitwood

I also think he's closer to 280 than 250.

Yeah, that seemed off to me, too. I'm seeing an SI story from 2009 that puts him at more like 270, and not that I can really judge the difference between 250 pounds and 270, but the bigger number feels more credible. Garnett and Duncan and the others may weigh more than the press guides say they do, too - certainly Shaq's listed weight was often a joke late in his career. But LeBron is built like a truck and if he's giving up less weight against a Garnett or Duncan or Stoudemire than the press guides say he is, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by G0sp3l

LBJ failing to box out Oswald allowed Nixon to score the game winner

You're joking but I'm reading Robert Caro's new book and I really did think the OP was talking about the President.

[brickbacon]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Chitwood

He's the most versatile everything ever, is basically my opinion.

I would probably agree, but the odd part is that the parts of his game that are the weakest are things you would think would be strengths. Notably, lack of finishing power, and weak post game against smaller weaker guards. His end of regulation one on one vs. Rondo in (I think) Game 2 was pathetic. He settled for a 20-foot jumper for no reason.

Originally Posted by Jimmy Chitwood

I think in terms of aggregate contributions over the course of a season he's the most valuable player that ever played.

Eh. I don't think he's in the top 10 right now, given that he doesn't get in done during crunch time.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

Like I said, I don't want to turn somebody else's thread into an argument about that, but I think it's nonsense that he doesn't get "it done" in crunch time, and it's funny, where I specified "over the course of a season" to avoid this argument it's still an argument about it. He's not primarily a scorer and he's 4th all-time in postseason scoring. He's had fewer than 27 twice this postseason and leads everybody in the 4th quarter. I think he's doing OK in crunch time.

[Marley23]

His reputation for failing in the clutch is overstated, yes. Kobe's clutch states are surprisingly bad, nobody says that kind of stuff about him. Sometimes a guy's reputation takes on a life of its own. If you take LeBron's contributions in aggregate rather than isolating particular moments, there are not a lot of guys who can compete with him.

[The Other Jeffrey Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Chitwood

Like I said, I don't want to turn somebody else's thread into an argument about that, but I think it's nonsense that he doesn't get "it done" in crunch time, and it's funny, where I specified "over the course of a season" to avoid this argument it's still an argument about it. He's not primarily a scorer and he's 4th all-time in postseason scoring. He's had fewer than 27 twice this postseason and leads everybody in the 4th quarter. I think he's doing OK in crunch time.

Have at it, JC - I know that you know your hoops, and if this thread should turn into something not expressed in the OP, so be it.

[brickbacon]

Originally Posted by Marley23

His reputation for failing in the clutch is overstated, yes. Kobe's clutch states are surprisingly bad, nobody says that kind of stuff about him. Sometimes a guy's reputation takes on a life of its own. If you take LeBron's contributions in aggregate rather than isolating particular moments, there are not a lot of guys who can compete with him.

I am not a Lebron hater, but let's get real here. His failings aren't captured primarily in his stats. It's that his teams lose when it matters. I would largely give him a pass during his time in Cleveland, as those teams were generally overachievers. But I question whether Lebron wants to be the man. Whether he really has the all-encompassing selfish desire to embarrass his opponents on the road to winning. Jordan had it, Kobe has it, Lebron doesn't seem to IMO.

[Blkshp]

He'll have that rap till he earns a ring

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by brickbacon

His failings aren't captured primarily in his stats.

I'm tempted to translate "aren't captured primarily in his stats" as "pretty much don't exist." I won't because I understand that in the '10-'11 finals he was frustrated by Dallas' defense, was not aggressive enough, and came up small, but even so it indicates that people's view of LeBron is based more on how they feel about him than what he does.

It's that his teams lose when it matters.

That's an indication of selective focus by his critics, not a failing by LeBron. Not to deny that his flaws exist, but this is pretty much the same as the increasingly discredited nonsense you get about clutch baseball players: people focus on particular moments in defining somebody and blow them out of proportion because it feels like they tell a meaningful story. Sometimes they don't, and the focus on those stories can expand to the exclusion of reality.

Whether he really has the all-encompassing selfish desire to embarrass his opponents on the road to winning. Jordan had it, Kobe has it, Lebron doesn't seem to IMO.

Probably not, and it makes some people crazy. Of course, Kobe's selfish desire is so selfish that it often hurts his own team - something he was constantly bashed for between the Shaq trade and the Paul Gasol trade and which has increasingly popped up again as the Lakers have declined. This season he was very good overall and not all that good in clutch moments. Meanwhile the stats said LeBron was about as good as Kevin Durant in those kinds of situations this season. But of course Kobe's teams have won championships, which buries all flaws.

[brickbacon]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I'm tempted to translate "aren't captured primarily in his stats" as "pretty much don't exist."

As much as I can appreciate where you are coming from, I think we both know that stats do not always capture what happens on the floor.

Originally Posted by Marley23

That's an indication of selective focus by his critics, not a failing by LeBron.

Most critiques will have a "selective focus" to some extent.

Originally Posted by Marley23

Probably not, and it makes some people crazy. Of course, Kobe's selfish desire is so selfish that it often hurts his own team - something he was constantly bashed for between the Shaq trade and the Paul Gasol trade and which has increasingly popped up again as the Lakers have declined. This season he was very good overall and not all that good in clutch moments. Meanwhile the stats said LeBron was about as good as Kevin Durant in those kinds of situations this season. But of course Kobe's teams have won championships, which buries all flaws.

It doesn't bury all his flaws. It does show the mentality he has for basketball. I think Kobe's problem is less selfishness, and more self-destructiveness (eg. the Colorado sexual assault incident, running Phil out of town). But that said, when you are trying to differentiate between guys at that level talent-wise, the things that separates them most often is that intangible will to win. Kobe is not a better player (talent-wise) than Lebron, but he seems to view himself as someone who is destined to make history, and willing to put his ass on the line to do it. Kobe plays like he is playing against Jordan, Magic and Bird. His current competition is beneath him; all that matters is what the history books say. Maybe James can develop that mentality, but he hasn't yet. And the fact that he hasn't means any discussion of him being a top 10 player are a little premature.

To prove my point. If Kobe were magically 27 again, would you take Lebron over him if you are trying to win a championship? Who do you give the ball to with 10 seconds left?

And screw you for making me praise Kobe Bryant.

[The Other Jeffrey Lebowski]

Here are LeBron's playoff stats (first is current series, second is total playoff numbers)
Minutes - 45.6; 41.9
FG% - .500; .496
3P% - .273; .267
FT% - .648; .728
REB - 10.0; 9.1
ASST - 4.0; 5.3
STL - 1.4; 2.1
BLK - 1.6; 0.8
TO - 3.4; 3.4
PTS - 31.8; 29.9
Those are pretty monster numbers. I agree that "clutch" is oftentimes tied to a narrative that may not hold water when the actual statistics are examined; yet I also agree (to a much lesser extent) that there have been instances, when the stage was set, so to speak, where he didn't make a signature play in dramatic fashion - Jordan switching hands on a layup, Magic's skyhook on the parquet, for example.
To me, he is joy to watch, ever since I saw him play in a televised game from his Soph or Jr year. Truly a transcendent, generational player. However, his game lacks a je ne sais quoi (grace? a touch of the sublime?); and the back to back gaffes of "the decision" and "not one, not 2..." remain hanging over him, his lasting legacy to this point.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by brickbacon

Most critiques will have a "selective focus" to some extent.

Yup. And when that focus is not sensibly chosen and it distorts the critiques, the critiques are not credible. We're drifting away from the original defense topic here, so I will say that last night LeBron shut down Pierce defensively and destroyed the Celtics on offense. There's not too much else you can ask the guy to do in one game. He should do it again in game 7, and if he does they'll very likely win. He's had other huge games in the playoffs over the years, of course, but they don't always get as much attention as his failures the last few years - and Kobe's awful game 7 from a couple of seasons ago doesn't get much attention either because his team won anyway. I'm not hearing a lot of talk about the fact that Wade has had four bad games in a row in this series either. But maybe this belongs in the more general NBA thread rather than a thread about versatility on defense.

[Enuma Elish]

As to the OP: Back in the day when Don Nelson coached the Milwaukee Bucks, they were rather successful playing 'small ball'. One big reason for this was the ability of Junior Bridgeman (a 6-5 guard/forward) to defend all 5 spots on the floor. While he was not a 'shut down' defender at the 4 or 5, he had the ability to get under the balance point of centers and power forwards to keep them from using their weight to back him out of his defensive position, along with the quickness to get into the passing lanes and deny ball entry.

Bridgeman was a good shooter and scorer so the net result of his defense on bigger players and the fact that they would get quickly fatigued trying to chase him around on the offensive end (remember - these were pre-zone days), usually ended up in Bridgeman outscoring them and helped to make Don Nelson's small ball a winning strategy.