Jim Morrison oediphus complex?

[Simple Linctus]

I recall hearing that the indecipherable bit in "The End" about his mother (after the threat to kill his father) is that he wished to "make love" to her, but put more crudely.

Any truth?

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

You spelled edifice wrong.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Yes, it's true. He made it very clear in live performances.

[njtt]

I do not understand the question. Are you asking if he actually says "fuck" on the record? No, I don't think he does (he may have done so in concert). Is that what he meant? Obviously, yes, and that whole section of the song is very clearly a direct, conscious, and intentional allusion the Freudian theory of the Oedipus complex.

[R. P. McMurphy]

In "The End" he kills his father and rapes his mother. It's not indecipherable.

So, what is the question?

[Colibri]

Moved to Cafe Society.

[Krokodil]

I'm sure he loved his momma, but not as much as he loved pushing boundaries and buttons.

[ftg]

Since Jim Morrison did not kill his father, his attitude towards his mother is likely not so oedipal.

It's song lyrics, folks. People write songs where the characters do various things. This doesn't mean the writer wants to or is encouraging people to do those things.

Poe probably had no desire to wall people up, while we're at it. It's called fiction.

[Nunzio Tavulari]

And more to the point, how does that relate to your username?

[TreacherousCretin]

Originally Posted by ftg

Since Jim Morrison did not kill his father, his attitude towards his mother is likely not so oedipal.

It's song lyrics, folks. People write songs where the characters do various things. This doesn't mean the writer wants to or is encouraging people to do those things.

Poe probably had no desire to wall people up, while we're at it. It's called fiction.

On the nosey. It was a performance. For example, Morrison once said that "I am the lizard king", which was only one line in a poem/song, was delivered theatrically, but "apparently people thought I was crazy."
.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

Originally Posted by njtt

Are you asking if he actually says "fuck" on the record? No, I don't think he does (he may have done so in concert).

He did indeed say "fuck" on the record--in fact he used the word as a rhythmic chant--but it was rendered inaudible in the mix for the record as originally released. The remixed CD version released a few years ago restores that part of the recording, for what it's worth.

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by ftg

Since Jim Morrison did not kill his father, his attitude towards his mother is likely not so oedipal..

to be clear, though, Morrison had an estranged and bad relationship with his Navy Admiral father. And Morrison was a big enough artistic douchebag to rub his parents' faces in it in pursuit of "art." Lordy I hate that asshole...

Sorry, what were you saying?

[njtt]

Originally Posted by Biffy the Elephant Shrew

He did indeed say "fuck" on the record--in fact he used the word as a rhythmic chant--but it was rendered inaudible in the mix for the record as originally released. The remixed CD version released a few years ago restores that part of the recording, for what it's worth.

Well, OK, if you say so, but I think you must be talking about a different part of the song. I was talking about (and took the OP to be talking about) the spoken part where he says:
"Father."
Yes, son.
I want to kill you.
Mother,
I want to @#@!!€*!!!"
I hear what I have represented with the grawlix there as just an inatriculate roar, although it is possible that the word "fuck" is buried somewhere in the mix, and it is certainly clear that "fuck you" is the intended meaning. However, it ain't no rhythmic chant, inaudible or otherwise.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

Originally Posted by njtt

Well, OK, if you say so, but I think you must be talking about a different part of the song.

You're quite correct; at that specific point Morrison just screams. (Though in live performance he would instead exclaim something like "I want to...fuck you, Mama! Fuck you all night long!") But the chanting part, which comes later in the song, involves both the words "fuck" and "kill," making it explicit what Morrison's persona in the song wants to do to his mother and father, respectively. Part of the "kill" chant can be heard even on the original mix, at the instrumental climax before the return to the opening verse melody.

[Little Nemo]

My take is that Morrison was just trying to be shocking.

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

My take is that Morrison was just trying to be shocking.

Yep. Like an obnoxious 7 year old.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally Posted by WordMan

Yep. Like an obnoxious 7 year old.

Making him sooooooo very different from everybody else in rock.

[Nawth Chucka]

Originally Posted by WordMan

to be clear, though, Morrison had an estranged and bad relationship with his Navy Admiral father. And Morrison was a big enough artistic douchebag to rub his parents' faces in it in pursuit of "art." Lordy I hate that asshole...

Sorry, what were you saying?

If you get a chance to see the Jim Morrison exhibit in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum, you can read the pained letter his father wrote to the Florida Probation and Parole Commission District Office; it's paraphrased here but is quite moving in full. Several items in the exhibit make clear the conflicted relationship between the son and the father.
'Dressing down', indeed.

[Gatopescado]

Originally Posted by Nunzio Tavulari

And more to the point, how does that relate to your username?

Oh, Goddammit! I just wet my pants'a'laughin!

Good call!

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

Making him sooooooo very different from everybody else in rock.

.

Johnny Rotten did it with more style and better snottiness.

[Maserschmidt]

Originally Posted by WordMan

.

Johnny Rotten did it with more style and better snottiness.

It's my instinct Johnny also skewed more toward provocation and less toward self-seriousness.

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by Maserschmidt

It's my instinct Johnny also skewed more toward provocation and less toward self-seriousness.

Exactly. He's obnoxious but not a douchebag.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally Posted by WordMan

Exactly. He's obnoxious but not a douchebag.

Johnny Rotten????

[Nawth Chucka]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

Johnny Rotten????

Being as Johnny Rotten's still alive, WordMan probably finds there are less consequences to insulting a dead guy.

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by Nawth Chucka

Being as Johnny Rotten's still alive, WordMan probably finds there are less consequences to insulting a dead guy.

Exactly; Johnny could have me in his sights.

'Xap, I hear you and am not gonna try to push back. Mr. Lydon is a huge pain in the ass on a number of levels. His obnoxiousness just feels different vs. Morrison, and better in the spirit of rock. I don't see Johnny claiming to be a poet, you know?

[Nawth Chucka]

Originally Posted by WordMan

Exactly; Johnny could have me in his sights.

'Xap, I hear you and am not gonna try to push back. Mr. Lydon is a huge pain in the ass on a number of levels. His obnoxiousness just feels different vs. Morrison, and better in the spirit of rock. I don't see Johnny claiming to be a poet, you know?

Geezopete, Wordie, did Morrison steal your girl 45 years ago or something? You're expending a lot of energy hating someone who's long gone. Like I'd tell Paul McCartney if he started his 'I should be named first on the Lennon/McCartney songwriting credits, wa wa wa' nonsense as he does where I could hear it, you're alive. You win!

Or was 'Morrison was a big enough artistic douchebag to rub his parents' faces in it in pursuit of "art." Lordy I hate that asshole...' merely hyperbole? It's sometimes hard for me to discern on the intarwebz.

[WordMan]

I don't have much respect for Morrison, no. For every good thing like People are Strange or Light My Fire, you have dreck like 20th Century Fox and Riders on the Storm. He was Sting before Sting was Sting but was a bigger dick to the people around him and didn't even play the lute. His type of pretension is the wrong kind for rock.

Yeah, it's an issue.

[Exapno Mapcase]

I'll publicly come out as a Doors fan. They were remarkably good from the start and they made albums that were strong all the way through in an era when that was unusual.

I never read Morrison's poetry, so I can't say anything about it. I admire his imagery and compactness as a rock lyricist, and he could write fine melodies. Sure he clunked at times - "Riders on the Storm" is particularly poor lyrically though it's a beautiful piece of music.

I've always hated, hated, hated the Sex Pistols for their pretentiousness. Worse, for their notion that attitude makes up for bad music. John Lydon did a lot better with PiL, but Johnny Rotten was a waste of good oxygen.

I guess we can just trade off one for the other. I'd be happy with that deal.

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

I guess we can just trade off one for the other. I'd be happy with that deal.

Done!

Carry on.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

I'll publicly come out as a Doors fan. They were remarkably good from the start and they made albums that were strong all the way through in an era when that was unusual.

I would have said that was the heyday of rock albums that were good from start to finish. You had the Beatles, Clash, Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix, Kinks, Zombies, Zeppelin, Who, Marvin Gaye, Van Morrison, etc. If you're into albums, I really can't think of a better era to choose from than then. And, yes, the Doors wrote tight albums that work if you're into that sort of thing, but I could never stand Ray Manazarek's keyboard (although, to his credit, his sound is his, and nobody else sounds like him.) Really liked Krieger's guitar work, though.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally Posted by pulykamell

I would have said that was the heyday of rock albums that were good from start to finish. You had the Beatles, Clash, Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix, Kinks, Zombies, Zeppelin, Who, Marvin Gaye, Van Morrison, etc. If you're into albums, I really can't think of a better era to choose from than then.

I'd say the Doors' work preceded the album periods of most of these groups. Their first album was released in January 1967. Astral Weeks didn't come out until 1968, same as Odessey and Oracle, with The Village Green Preservation Society in late 1968. Led Zeppelin wasn't until 1969, as was Tommy (The Who Sell Out never worked for me as an album). I won't even mention the Clash, since that's obviously a brain freeze moment. The rock world changed tremendously and tremendously rapidly over those few years. There were hardly any great rock albums until 1965, and few standouts other than the obvious pantheon level albums like Blonde on Blonde, Revolver, Aftermath, and Pet Sounds in 1966. The Doors were at the front of the wave.

And even if I give you all of your examples, saying that their work compares well to some of the finest groups in rock history is an odd way of disparaging them. My argument is that they are good precisely because you can compare them to the greats - and they did it before most of them. If you can go out and find a dozen mediocre groups of the time who made a half dozen albums that were mostly fine from beginning to end then I'd say you have a case. But you can't do that because they don't exist.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

And even if I give you all of your examples, saying that their work compares well to some of the finest groups in rock history is an odd way of disparaging them.

I'm just saying that there's nothing particularly special about that era that it was "unusual" for albums to be strong all the way through. (And while I'll grant you that their debut was solid, their next few albums--Strange Days, Waiting for the Sun and especially The Soft Parade are patchy, IMHO.)

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

I'd say the Doors' work preceded the album periods of most of these groups. Their first album was released in January 1967. Astral Weeks didn't come out until 1968, same as Odessey and Oracle, with The Village Green Preservation Society in late 1968. Led Zeppelin wasn't until 1969, as was Tommy (The Who Sell Out never worked for me as an album). I won't even mention the Clash, since that's obviously a brain freeze moment.

And, just to clarify, I wasn't thinking of some of those albums.

For the Kinks, I was talking The Kink Kontroversy (1965), Face to Face (1966), and Something Else by the Kinks (1967), in addition to the later stuff like Village Green, Arthur, etc. For the Who I was thinking The Who Sings My Generation (1965), pretty much the only Who album I listen to.

The other ones, yeah, those are what I was thinking of.

[Esox Lucius]

I hear it as "rape you", in keeping with the violence at that point in the song, but it's impossible to say for sure.

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

"Riders on the Storm" is particularly poor lyrically though it's a beautiful piece of music.

It has its moments, though...

Like a dog without a bone,
An actor all alone.

As existential metaphors (okay, similes), those lines have been etched in my mind since I first heard them.

And overall, I'm a Doors fan, too, for the same reasons you gave, no matter what kind of dick Morrison was otherwise.

[Chefguy]

Even dicks can make beautiful music. I give you Stan Getz as a prime example.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally Posted by Esox Lucius

Like a dog without a bone,
An actor all alone.

As existential metaphors (okay, similes), those lines have been etched in my mind since I first heard them.

Yes, that would be a good image, if those were the right words. If it's any consolation, those are similar to the words I always heard. But they're not the right words.

If you have to trust anyone on the subject, I'd go with other band members. And here's what they have to say when you search in Google Books.

Riders on the Storm: My Life with Jim Morrison and the Doors
John Densmore - 2009

Riders on the storm Riders on the storm Into this house we're born Into this world we're thrown Like a dog without a bone An actor out on loan Riders on the storm. Now pull the track down. Perfect level for the next dialogue.

Light My Fire: My Life With the Doors
Ray Manzarek - 2000

A recording studio in the Doors' workshop. ... storm Riders on the storm Into this house we're born Into this world we're thrown Like a dog without a bone An actor out on loan Riders on the storm Then Jim would come in with a haunted, ...
More editions

An actor out on loan? WTF?

It has its defenders:

Blinded by the Lyrics: Behind the Lines of Rock and Roll's Most Baffling Songs By Brent Mann

An actor out on loan - such an imaginative way to describe a person whose life, to some degree, is not really his or her own, and what an ideal fit for "Riders on the Storm," a tune making the point that we're all thrust into a world controlled by forces over which we have very little control.

Not try, but no soap. You can say that about any actor, and those out on loan - an actual practice of the 30s studio system - suffered from no less control than their counterparts. None had any.

If you search for "Riders on the Storm" lyrics almost all the first page hits give the "actor out alone" version. I don't see any actor "all alone." I found one "actor out of role," which is another nice try. Apparently, the collective consciousness has decided to clean up the quote to make it better, just like a thousand other famous quotes that weren't quite said the way we remember them. ("Blood, sweat, and tears" to use another famous rock misquote.)

But the real lyrics are what they are, and not the best. Technically, the song is credited to all four Doors, but I don't know of anyone who thinks the lyrics weren't written by Morrison. If there is a Doors scholar in the crowd, please enlighten me.

[WordMan]

Impressive 'Xap - thanks.

The lyrics lost me at "Like a dog without a bone" - that's supposed to evoke sad, desolate feelings? Sorry, not feeling it; I just see Fido missing a dinner.

Heck, I am not a Sting fan, but at least he has described his soul as "a fossil that's trapped in a high cliff wall," or a "dead salmon frozen in a waterfall."

No wonder he's the King of Pain.

[cjepson]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

Technically, the song is credited to all four Doors, but I don't know of anyone who thinks the lyrics weren't written by Morrison. If there is a Doors scholar in the crowd, please enlighten me.

Personally, I think the lyrics sound like they were written mostly by Robby Krieger (who also wrote the lyrics to "Light My Fire", "Love Her Madly", and "Touch Me"). But I have no evidence for that other than my own subjective impression.

[Lemur866]

To stir up the "who's the doucheiest?" conversation a bit more, Johnny Rotten seems like less of an asshole because he knows he's a collosal asshole. Jim Morrison didn't seem to realize he was a collosal asshole, which made him an even bigger asshole.

I guess I can't understand how the Sex Pistols were pretentious. They were about as pretentious as The Monkeys. I mean, they were pretend, but they weren't pretentious. They knew they were pretend.

[Leaffan]

Originally Posted by cjepson

Personally, I think the lyrics sound like they were written mostly by Robby Krieger (who also wrote the lyrics to "Light My Fire", "Love Her Madly", and "Touch Me"). But I have no evidence for that other than my own subjective impression.

No, Morrison wrote the lyrics. It was part of a film he did called HWY.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally Posted by Leaffan

No, Morrison wrote the lyrics. It was part of a film he did called HWY.

Cool. I thought somebody here would know.

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

To stir up the "who's the doucheiest?" conversation a bit more, Johnny Rotten seems like less of an asshole because he knows he's a collosal asshole. Jim Morrison didn't seem to realize he was a collosal asshole, which made him an even bigger asshole.

I guess I can't understand how the Sex Pistols were pretentious. They were about as pretentious as The Monkeys. I mean, they were pretend, but they weren't pretentious. They knew they were pretend.

That's where I was coming from, yes. Well articulated.

[Leaffan]

Originally Posted by Nunzio Tavulari

And more to the point, how does that relate to your username?

I'm going to take a wild stab and say the the OP's username is an anagram of his real name à la Mr. Mojo Risin/Jim Morrison.

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by Leaffan

à la Mr. Mojo Risin/Jim Morrison.

Since we are openly discussing likes and dislikes about the guy, can I just add that "Mr. Mojo Risin" is so silly. I could dig "I am the Lizard King" - that was cool and dangerous - but Mr. Mojo...just oy.

But I can't deal with Jay-Z calling himself HOVA either, and "H to the Izzo, V to the Izzay" just makes me giggle.

I think both should've just referred to themselves as something really dangerous and menacing...like Black Adder

[Leaffan]

Love him, or hate him, I believe he was responsible for bringing performance art into rock concerts; he inspired Alice Cooper and Kiss and the like.

His alcoholism progressed as The Doors gained notoriety. I'm not defending him, but from most accounts he was a pretty decent, albeit maturely-stunted, individual most of the time. Over a five year period of fame and fortune he never bought a house, put down roots or did anything a normal adult would have done. But that was hardly the exception in the late 1960s.

I don't see how he's significantly different than quite a few other "artists" from the era.

[Esox Lucius]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

Yes, that would be a good image, if those were the right words. If it's any consolation, those are similar to the words I always heard. But they're not the right words....

Thanks for the thorough correction, disappointing as it is. I guess every writer needs an editor.

Now I suppose you'll tell me that "Slow walkin' Walter, fire engine guy" aren't the lyrics to the iconic Deep Purple song (called Smoke On The Water for some reason).

(Heard that on a phone-in radio show asking for listeners' incorrectly heard lyrics.)

[scabpicker]

The Doors as a whole were hit and miss. Some of Robby Krieger's guitar work is very memorable. If you can get into or get around the lyrics to L.A. Woman, his playing there is easily the match for most of his contemporaries. But, the records of theirs that I bought in my teens don't get pulled out very often. If they come on the radio, it depends on my mood (and the song) if I change the station or not.

My gauge on Mr. Morrison in particular, before reading what he said about the Lizard King line above, was the same thing I'll say about Glen Danzig: I can't take him seriously, because he does. But then again, I thought he bought into his own mystique.

After reading what he said about the Lizard King line, I may have to reconsider a little. If he didn't take himself so seriously, then I guess he's no worse than 1/2 the over-dramatic singers from the era. TreacherousCretin, do you know where you read/saw that?

Either way, I was given a collection of his poems as a present when I was 16. He was a poet, but not one anyone would have published if he hadn't been the singer for the Doors. For instance, he's the type who would put Oedipal references into his poems to emphasize how deep his teen angst was.

[TreacherousCretin]

Originally Posted by scabpicker

TreacherousCretin, do you know where you read/saw that?

No, unfortunately. It was an interview in a magazine, but would have been at least 35 years ago.

[Measure for Measure]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

My take is that Morrison was just trying to be shocking.

I thought that the referenced part of The End was a jokey reference to Freud. I'd say Lenny Bruce was trying to be shocking. Jim Morrison just aimed for trippiness. Pseudo intellectual- but in a good way!

Yes I like the Doors and the Sex Pistols.