Should (and would) the West intervene if the Pyramids were in danger?

[aldiboronti]

More calls for the destruction of Egypt's 'pagan' monuments such as the Pyramids.

Hopefully this is still fringe Islamist opinion but with Islamists coming to power in Egypt the possibility at least exists that it will one day become government policy. The question is that if that event ever arises should the West intervene to prevent their destruction? And would it be likely to?

[Kinthalis]

Religion strikes again.

First it wastes precious billions of man hours building silly monuments to some afterlife mumbo jumbo, and now that these relics are of enormous cultural and historical significance, it wants to destroy them because it's an affront to some other god.

Can we remove fanatical religious leaders as the affront to rational thought that they are instead?

It Occurs to me that I didn't answer the question. Should we intervene? Yes. Will we? Hells no.

[Sicks Ate]

My initial reaction was 'yes, we should.' But how would we accomplish that, assuming they can't be talked or bribed out of it.

All it would take is a flight of Egyption bombers crewed by fundamentalist muslims, and the pyramids are history. Barring the establishment of a no-fly zone, I think if some religious-asshole-in-charge decides the pyramids are history, we can kiss them goodbye.

[John Mace]

The OP's article says the fanatics want to cover the pyramids with wax.

Maybe Egypt needs some better tourist attraction, and "World's Largest Candle" sounds like a good idea!

[Ike Witt]

Many people complained when the Taliban set out to destroy all the Buddha statues in Afghanistan. No action was taken, however.

[Jas09]

I'm really not sure how to frame an argument that leads to the conclusion that we should do anything about it. The pyramids are pretty clearly Egyptian, both physically and culturally. We don't really have any sort of legitimate claim to be their protector. And the current government in Egypt is (at least ostensibly) democratically elected. If the Egyptian people want to blow up their greatest monument I'm not sure why or how we would stop them.

[carnivorousplant]

If anyone tries it, Zahi Hawass will kick their ass!

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

If anyone tries it, Zahi Hawass will kick their ass!

Anyway, to the OP: Not gonna happen. We'd see a military coup first. The Buddhist statues in Afghanistan are a bad analogy. How much money did they generate for the Afghan economy?

[Sicks Ate]

Originally Posted by Jas09

I'm really not sure how to frame an argument that leads to the conclusion that we should do anything about it. The pyramids are pretty clearly Egyptian, both physically and culturally. We don't really have any sort of legitimate claim to be their protector. And the current government in Egypt is (at least ostensibly) democratically elected. If the Egyptian people want to blow up their greatest monument I'm not sure why or how we would stop them.

Well, we're still in Afghanistan in order to make it safe for christian missionaries and further womens rights, so...the bar is set pretty low.

[XT]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

If anyone tries it, Zahi Hawass will kick their ass!

Isn't he in jail? Maybe my memory is faulty there, but I seem to recall something about him going to jail.


Anyway, I don't think we could do much if the Egyptians really wanted to destroy the temples. Maybe bribe them to bury them instead, if they are some sort of affront to Islam. It would be just like when the Taliban took it in their idiotic heads to dynamite those Buddhist images and icons in Afghanistan.

(btw, I don't think this is a likely possibility for a number of reasons...just some fringe lunatics in Egypt spouting off. I think that if someone actually tried to do it the Egyptians themselves would revolt, as they put a lot of stock in their cultural heritage...plus, they bring in huge tourist dollars that are badly needed by the Egyptian economy)

-XT

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Ike Witt

Many people complained when the Taliban set out to destroy all the Buddha statues in Afghanistan. No action was taken, however.

Most people in the US didn't even know those Buddha statues existed until the Taliban blew them up, though, so I'm not sure how relevant an example that is.

[Shagnasty]

We already have our own pyramids and Sphinx copies in Las Vegas. I don't think it matters if the Egyptians want to destroy the old ones now.

[XT]

Maybe we could buy them from the Egyptians and move them, sort of like Scotties Castle.

-XT

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by Sicks Ate

My initial reaction was 'yes, we should.' But how would we accomplish that, assuming they can't be talked or bribed out of it.

All it would take is a flight of Egyption bombers crewed by fundamentalist muslims, and the pyramids are history. Barring the establishment of a no-fly zone, I think if some religious-asshole-in-charge decides the pyramids are history, we can kiss them goodbye.

Given that the pyramids are already the shape of a giant pile of rubble, i'm not sure that dropping anything smaller than a nuclear bomb on them would do much to the structure.

In the event that some future Egyptian government actually tried to destroy them, or other ancient sites? UNESCO would raise a stink, and it'd cost Egypt a lot of tourist revenue, but I don't see how "the west" would have any claim to start a war and risk the lives of our soldiers over some old statues.

[carnivorousplant]

I'd want to stop them, but I don't see that we would have any more right than to stop the English from tearing down St. Paul's Cathedral.

[Gorsnak]

Is this even remotely plausible? I was under the impression that most Egyptians whatever their religion were immensely proud of the ancient heritage of their country.

[Marley23]

It was terrible when the Bamiyan Buddhas were destroyed and it would be terrible if something similar happened to the pyramids- just an incalculable loss to world culture. I don't believe a regime or a population has the right to destroy something like that. But it's very for me to imagine a large scale military operation being launched on behalf of preserving artwork or historical sites.

[Mr. Kobayashi]

It's hard to see how any Egyptian government could even consider it; the Pyramids are a great source of income and employment. If push comes to shove they'd probably just stick a star and crescent on the top; converting sites to Islamic sites of worship has many precedents (the Hagia Sofia, for example).

[Odesio]

Most Egyptians are quite proud of their ancient past so I don't see any real danger of them destroying their monuments. Plus, as has been pointed out, tourism is such an important part of their economy I just don't see them cutting their own throats. If it does happen, no, we should not intervene. As tragic a loss it would be to the entire world for the pyramids to be destroyed I don't think it'd be a good idea to send an army to stop them.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Sicks Ate

All it would take is a flight of Egyption bombers crewed by fundamentalist muslims, and the pyramids are history.

I seriously doubt any conventional bombs could do much more than dent the pyramids.

[Nunzio Tavulari]

How reliable is this report anyway? The idea that this would have any support beton a handful of people seems ridiculous. This looks like the tripe that the Tea Party puts out. More fear-mongering about the Muslim Menace.

[John Mace]

It's from the Tea Party's official news mag: The Assyrian International News Agency.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by John Mace

It's from the Tea Party's official news mag: The Assyrian International News Agency.

The article seems to have come from Frontpage magazine, which is run by David Horowitz. So not exactly tea party, but close.

[foolsguinea]

The OP's cite has a whiff of the paranoid. Muslims lack nationalism? Really?

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

The article seems to have come from Frontpage magazine, which is run by David Horowitz. So not exactly tea party, but close.

How are you getting that? From the first sentence in the link in the OP:

According to several reports in the Arabic media...

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Nunzio Tavulari

How reliable is this report anyway? The idea that this would have any support beton a handful of people seems ridiculous. This looks like the tripe that the Tea Party puts out. More fear-mongering about the Muslim Menace.

The follow-up: "Jews to report to Egypt to resume pyramid-building duties".

Oh wait, that was the Onion.

[XT]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

I seriously doubt any conventional bombs could do much more than dent the pyramids.

A couple of bunker busters and you'd shatter the interior space, if nothing else...and create a hell of a mess. I think you could basically destroy the pyramids with bombs if you really wanted to...though it would probably be easier to just use conventional explosives (even better would be to use magical nano-thermite, since it can do anything) and regular earth moving equipment.

Wonder what the contract would pay to demolish the pyramids...

-XT

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by John Mace

How are you getting that? From the first sentence in the link in the OP:

I mean the actual article came from Frontpage. Its linked at the bottom.

[Smapti]

This article is the first time i've ever heard the allegation that Muslims destroyed the Library of Alexandria (which i'm pretty sure happened a couple hundred years before there was any such thing as Islam) or "de-nosed" the Sphinx with cannon fire (which i'm pretty sure was the victim of natural erosion). I'm not sure the "let's blow up the pyramids" people quoted in this article are any more well-known in the Muslim world than any random Tom or Dick or Abdullah, and I doubt they have much pull in the new government.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

I seriously doubt any conventional bombs could do much more than dent the pyramids.

It would be pretty rough on the sandstone.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Malthus

The follow-up: "Jews to report to Egypt to resume pyramid-building duties".

Oh wait, that was the Onion.

I believe our gig was after they were built...or maybe before...

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

It would be pretty rough on the sandstone.

The Great Pyramid is made chiefly of limestone.

[The Tao's Revenge]

You know, it strikes me this might not be the easiest war to win. We attack, they bomb pyramids, now why are we there?

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by XT

A couple of bunker busters and you'd shatter the interior space, if nothing else...and create a hell of a mess.

Where are Islamic extremists going to get bunker-buster bombs?

[XT]

I'm assuming it would be the Egyptian government...they are a nation state, so they would have access to something along those lines, or could buy or fabricate them if they really wanted to. If we are just talking about terrorists, then no...I'm not seeing them being able to destroy all the various Egyptian 'pagan' temples, pyramids and such.

-XT

[clairobscur]

Islamists are currently destroying Timbuktu's mausoleums (or already have finished destroying them) and I don't see any foreign army there. And they aren't even a rightful government, just rebels.

[Esox Lucius]

The Muslims are at it again!

In a related story that's all too depressingly real, an Islamic group that has taken control of northern Mali is showing its displeasure with the West by......wait for it......destroying Muslim tombs at an ancient mosque:

Armed with hoes, pick-axes and chisels, members of Ansar Dine (Defenders of Faith) hammered away at the two earthen tombs until they were completely destroyed, witnesses told AFP.

...

On Tuesday a source in Ansar Dine told AFP that "from now on, as soon as foreigners speak of Timbuktu" they would attack anything referred to as a World Heritage site.

"There is no world heritage, it doesn't exist. The infidels must not get involved in our business," said a Tunisian jihadist who gave his name only as Ahmed and said he was part of Ansar Dine's "media committee."

They ain't the pyramids, but Jeez Louise, where are their fucking brains?

[Sateryn76]

You know, I'm not one for cultural relativism, but I don't usually get too worked up about the horrific things the Taliban does to women, etc. I hate it, and hate them for it, but it doesn't ping my outrage on a constant basis.

The thought of them destroying the Pyramids...well, fuck them. Hard. In the face with a nuke. I don't know exactly why this makes me so extremely angry, but I'm really pissed off that this would even be considered. I mean, it was obvious that they were total jackholes, but this blows my mind. The Pyramids may be located in Crazy Town in an accident of history, but I truly believe that they belong to humans as a whole.

I would fully support even military intervention and bloody murder to prevent this. I hope that attention is being paid to the actions of the radicals in relation to these statements, and something is done swiftly if it is discovered that destruction is in the works.

We'll be damned if we let a johnny-come-lately group of religious zealots destroy our human heritage.

[Scholar Beardpig]

The Pyramids belong to Egypt; the civilization that created them has gone wholly extinct, and the Egyptian government and people own the soil on which they sit. National determination is a bitch, sometimes, and I think there are no compelling reasons to ever do this, but if the locals can think of one and broadly accept it, then - shit, go for it. It's your property, you can do what you like with it.

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by Sateryn76

The Pyramids may be located in Crazy Town in an accident of history, but I truly believe that they belong to humans as a whole.

Which is all well and good in an abstract sense, but in terms of real estate they're the property of the Egyptian government, and "humans as a whole" possess no means by which to compel them to do or not do anything with them. In the unlikely hypothetical that Cairo decides to drop tactical nukes on some old stone landmarks right outside its own front door, what would you have the international community do? Start a war to defend the tombs of some 4,000-year-old kings? Slap sanctions on a country that nobody will want to visit anyway because it's now radioactive and has no pyramids? Demand that they build new pyramids? There's not much the international community can do besides send a firm but polite letter asking them please to make nice with the old landmarks.

In the end, the new Egyptian government may be further to the right than its predecessor, but they've got enough issues on their plate to make "destroying the pyramids" a low priority, and they're surely savvy enough of their value as national symbols and sources of tourist revenue that the idea would never fly with the general public even if radical Islamists took power.

[Acid Lamp]

Egypt relies fairly heavily on tourism. I doubt very much that they are going to be that stupid.

[clairobscur]

Originally Posted by Esox Lucius

The Muslims are at it again!

In a related story that's all too depressingly real, an Islamic group that has taken control of northern Mali is showing its displeasure with the West by......wait for it......destroying Muslim tombs at an ancient mosque:



They ain't the pyramids, but Jeez Louise, where are their fucking brains?

They are not showing their displeasure with the west. They're showing their displeasure with practices common in northern Africa that they deem heretical : namely the veneration of "saints" supposed to be buried there.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

I believe our gig was after they were built...or maybe before...

It was long after, around 1000 years after (assuming it wasn't totally mythological). The great pyramids where build during Egypt's Old Kingdom - the Pyramid of Giza was build aprox. 2500 BC, while the events of Exodus happened (or are alleged to have happened) around 1500 BC. The great pyramids were already antique.

I'm refering to a specific Onion article though:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/jew...id-duty,20447/

[Marley23]

Leaving aside the issue of who owns the pyramids - and like I said, I think they belong to humanity, not whoever runs Egypt at the moment - it's hard to justify killing people or spending people to die over artwork or historic buildings. That's what would probably keep the West (or anyone) from intervening if for some reason the Egyptian government were dead set on doing this. I am sure there would be a great deal of diplomatic pressure, but a real military intervention would be unlikely, I think. I don't expect that this is going to happen in any event.

[Bryan Ekers]

Let them do it. Then they'll starve when they lose the granary benefit.

[TriPolar]

So in March of 2001 the Taliban destroyed the 1500 year old Buddhas of Bamiyan. The west criticized them, but did nothing otherwise, and as mentioned, few had even heard of them up to that point. The world didn't end. It's not like the disrespect for other cultures is a slippery slope leading to worse things, or some kind of indication of their true desires. So yeah, let them blow up the Pyramids, what's the worst that could happen.

[kayaker]

They aren't the least bit concerned about the curse?

[blondebear]

Originally Posted by XT

Maybe we could buy them from the Egyptians and move them, sort of like Scotties Castle.

You know, I've been on three tours of Scotty's Castle, and the docents never mentioned that it was moved from Egypt. Why are they hiding the truth?

[Steken]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Let them do it. Then they'll starve when they lose the granary benefit.

You, good sir, are now my new favourite Doper.

[Esox Lucius]

Originally Posted by clairobscur

They are not showing their displeasure with the west. They're showing their displeasure with practices common in northern Africa that they deem heretical : namely the veneration of "saints" supposed to be buried there.

They might be unhappy with venerating saints, but destroying the tombs was a direct reaction to "foreigners and infidels".

On Tuesday a source in Ansar Dine told AFP that "from now on, as soon as foreigners speak of Timbuktu" they would attack anything referred to as a World Heritage site.

"There is no world heritage, it doesn't exist. The infidels must not get involved in our business," said a Tunisian jihadist who gave his name only as Ahmed and said he was part of Ansar Dine's "media committee.

"

(Also, I see now that I didn't read "Olive The Thread" before posting.)