What's wrong with Canadian lawyers?

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

I've been intrigued by the probability that I have a legitimate claim to Canadian citizenship (LSS: my dad was born in Canada, emigrated to the US, and I was born here) and have written several query letters to various Canadian immigration lawyers, mainly in Hamilton, Ontario, where my dad was born, telling them I've got this stuff pretty well documented, and I'd like to hire a lawyer to help me with the immigration (to Canada) process.

I've been sending these letters from my university e-mail, with my name and title on the e-mail, not a Yahoo or hotmail address, to the official e-mails listed on their websites, and I haven't even gotten so much as an acknowledgement from any of the half-dozen lawyers I've sent these to over the past year.

You'd think I'd get at least a "Piss off, Yank, we don't need any more of you scum in our nice clean country" letter or two, wouldn't you, or at least one unethical scumbag thinking he can make a few bucks off this stupid Yank by pretending to deal with the immigration services. But I've literally gotten zero responses. What's up with that? Is there a code word I need to use?

[astro]

If I had to guess I would say you'd have better luck calling them directly. A random email to busy lawyer is not likely to get a response if he has work in front of him.

Plus I'm guessing they have might have gotten a belly full of angry US citizens ready to pull the trigger on changing countries only to cool down later and have the interaction be a huge waste of time. If they have bunch of motivated, paying immigrants from 2nd world countries on their plate a random inquiry by a US student or academic might be categorized as a likely time sink.

[jtur88]

I also have ties to Canada, and I've had, from time to time, occasion to seek the opinions of Canadian lawyers. They completely ignore me, and do not respond to my queries. So don't take it personally.

[md2000]

Theoretically, there is nothing wrong with Canadian lawyers.

Maybe there's some issues around unsolicited email clients, or clients in other locales than where they are licensed?

Are you sure these are real "IAAL" type lawyers? There's a whole class of "immigration consultants" with zero real credentials, who exist for the sole purpose of charging gullible third-world applicants huge fees for filling out simple government forms. If you are responding to their advertising, they probably couldn't be bothered with someone who doesn't fit the usual profile for a client/mark.

Finally, why don't you just apply for a citizenship certificate and passport from Canada?
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/departm...rn_outside.asp

The requirement to register a child born to a Canadian parent outside Canada was eliminated under the 1977 Citizenship Act, which took effect February 15, 1977. According to the 1977 act, children born outside of Canada to a Canadian parent after February 14, 1977, automatically became Canadian citizens.* It is recommended that they apply for a citizenship certificate in order to have proof of their Canadian citizenship when, for example, they apply for a passport.

A new law came into effect on April 17, 2009, amending the Citizenship Act. The new law gives Canadian citizenship to certain individuals who lost it and to others who are recognized as citizens for the first time. Citizenship is automatic and retroactive to the date of loss or the date of birth, depending on the situation. All individuals who were Canadian citizens at the time the law came into effect will keep their citizenship.

The law gives citizenship to border babies who were not registered as citizens and restores citizenship to border babies who lost it other than by renunciation, as long as they were born in the first generation outside Canada.

Download the online aplication forms, send in your request.

[Emtar KronJonDerSohn]

You mean to tell me that someone who has people lining up at their door to pay hundreds of dollars per hour for legal advice isn't responding to random emails from people they don't know asking for free legal advice? I'm shocked!

[Waenara]

Like md2000 said, why would you even need a lawyer? I'm Canadian (born and raised), but if I were in your shoes I'd just fill out the standard paperwork and see what happens. I would think that a lawyer would only be necessary if your application is denied or there are complications or very unusual circumstances.

ETA: Check out this page:

If you were born outside Canada:
You will get a citizenship certificate if you have successfully completed all the steps to become a Canadian citizen.
You can also apply for a citizenship certificate if you were born outside Canada to a Canadian parent and you meet certain requirements.
Use the self-assessment tool to find out if you are a Canadian citizen.
Get more information about who is considered a Canadian citizen under the new citizenship rules.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Originally Posted by Emtar KronJonDerSohn

You mean to tell me that someone who has people lining up at their door to pay hundreds of dollars per hour for legal advice isn't responding to random emails from people they don't know asking for free legal advice? I'm shocked!

Well, they DO advertise that they're eager to discuss cases with potential clients, and they DO provide e-mail addresses (and promises to return all e-mails promptly). It's certainly standard for U.S. lawyers to offer a brief session in which you explain your case, and they explain how they work (flat fee, hourly rate, retainer, etc.). How else can they get clients?

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Originally Posted by Waenara

Like md2000 said, why would you even need a lawyer? I'm Canadian (born and raised), but if I were in your shoes I'd just fill out the standard paperwork and see what happens. I would think that a lawyer would only be necessary if your application is denied or there are complications or very unusual circumstances.

ETA: Check out this page:

I imagine someone trained in immigration law would be better able to decide how to fill out an immigration form successfully than a rank amateur would. If I'm willing to pay someone to help me fill out a form, why would someone be unwilling his terms for doing so? Seems like easy money to me.

[jtur88]

Originally Posted by Emtar KronJonDerSohn

You mean to tell me that someone who has people lining up at their door to pay hundreds of dollars per hour for legal advice isn't responding to random emails from people they don't know asking for free legal advice? I'm shocked!

I didn't ask for free legql advice. I wrote to a lawyer in the relevant jurisdiction to ask if, in his opinion, retaining legal counsel would be to my benefit in proceeding with a matter. Specifically, it related to assets that I own in Canada, and I asked if a Canadian estate lawyer would be helpful in correctly bequeathing that property to my heirs, or in fact, whether assets in Canada would need to be probated separately by Canadian courts.

[Eva Luna]

Why don't you call and at least talk to the receptionist about setting up a phone consult? It may not be free, but at least you'd get some info. I may be able to dig up a name or two of Canadian immigraiton lawyers - we have occasion to deal with them now and again.

Eva Luna, U.S. Immigration Paralegal

[Malthus]

Call rather than email.

Lawyers here are the target of numerous fake-client scams of various sorts and so are leery of replying to cold-call emails from outside of their province however legitimate they appear. Most likely they were culled out unread.

These scams are often considerably more sophisticated than your usual laughable Nigerian type scam. They are intended to set up a real-seeming client relationship with someone conveniently out of the jurisdiction. Here are some examples from the Alberta Law Society:

http://www.lawsociety.ab.ca/lawyers/...ud_alerts.aspx

Be prepared to answer a lot of questions about who you are. In most Canadian jurisdictions there are now all sorts of "know your client" rules in effect, partly to avoid exactly this problem.

[md2000]

Plus, the ones that overcharge immigrants and immigrant wannabees (usually not real lawyers, just deceptive advertising) want to prey on naiive third-world types, not educated North Americans with good english, an awareness of their rights and knowledge of what things cost and how government works - and is not afraid of police. An educated North American knocking on their email door screams trouble and especially possible legal trouble, I'm sure.

if you are raised in the USA, but can't fill out the forms yourself, maybe you shouldn't come to Canada. (But we have no literacy requirement if you are already a citizen).

Seriously, I doubt the form is confusing. But, immigration of non-citizens to Canada is totally messed up, with years-long backlogs, allegations of visa scams in embassies, recent changes in qualiication requirements etc. It's easier to charge some Asian thousands and claim it's because of legal issues, they know the right contacts, and bribes that are needed, than to deal with a very different case.

[D18]

I suspect that immigration lawyers in Canada have no problems getting clients and so aren't necessarily needing to provide a high level of customer service. (I live in an area of suburban Toronto that is very attractive to new immigrants, and there are immigration lawyers all over the place.) So it is probably a simple matter of the bird in hand (the full waiting room) versus that one in the bush (you).

In Ontario at least, if you call the law society you can get the name of a lawyer (drawn at random from those with your area of need) and that gets you a free telephone consult to go over your case. In my experience when I've done this, they've been very good about getting back to me quickly. They may tell you, as someone suggested up-thread, you don't really need a lawyer and you just need to fill out the forms. Otherwise, the purpose of the call is to tell you how long it will take and how much it will cost.

As to whats "wrong" with Canadian lawyers? The half-dozen I've had direct dealings with over the years have been pleasant, competent, and helpful. So I'm going to say, "nothing"!

[Malthus]

If there is any question as to whether they are a real lawyer or not, the Law Society of Upper Canada has a list or real, licenced lawyers.

[Spoons]

As a member of the Law Society of Alberta, I constantly get notices (ironically, via e-mail) from the Law Society similar to the page that Malthus linked to, above. Heck, I once received an e-mail similar to the "Dan Nagasaki" one reported on that page. I ignored it, as I do all e-mails that do not come from an established client (note established, not potential), or another lawyer or law firm, or from some other familiar source, such as a court clerk. To the best of my knowledge, my colleagues tend to do the same.

But calling always gets my attention, so I'd add another vote for telephoning, and perhaps setting up a phone appointment. Many lawyers offer a half-hour free consult, or at least one at low cost. Or, you can get in touch with the Law Society of a province--some of them offer a referral service; which, if used, will get you a half-hour of the referred lawyer's time at no charge.

As far as immigration goes, most immigrants to Canada of my acquaintance, never used an immigration lawyer. They did it themselves. This is reflected by what one of my colleagues, who practices solely in immigration law, does: his clients are foreign companies who want to send their foreign employees to work in Canada as quickly as possible. He knows how to fast-track things so that the proper paperwork can be issued to allow these people (and their families) to live and work in Canada for whatever period of time is necessary--a year, perhaps two, or even more. But he doesn't deal with people who want to immigrate to Canada because they think they'd like to move here. When someone calls to ask about that, he refers them to the Canadian government web sites that explain how to do it on their own.

[Colibri]

Without knowledge of the specific lawyers involved, this is probably better suited to IMHO than GQ.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

No big deal, I can telephone, but it strikes me as peculiar that they so prominently put an e-mail addy on their contact page, with all the usual "We will IMMEDIATELY get back to you..." boilerplate on it.

[Amasia]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

No big deal, I can telephone, but it strikes me as peculiar that they so prominently put an e-mail addy on their contact page, with all the usual "We will IMMEDIATELY get back to you..." boilerplate on it.

They're not getting back to you because there's nothing they can do for you. From what others have said in this thread, it sounds like all you need is to fill out a form. They want complex cases which actually require their skills and time be used.

[Loach]

Maybe PM Northern Piper and ask why he is ignoring you.

[elbows]

Lots of places set up web presences with great intentions, but they lose interest quickly, are overwhelmed with nonsense, and can't be bothered to really maintain it/tend to it.

Also there is a huge immigration foul up, in Canada, at the moment. Literally thousands of people paid $800, non refundable fee, + lawyers costs, over 2-3 yrs, only to have a huge chunk of the enormous backlog simply wiped away by a change in policy by a stupid government.

There are currently, immigration lawyers suing on behalf of these and those, etc. The whole thing is a huge muck up.

All this to say, the current stupid government is both intent on reshaping immigration, to their liking, without regard for even those already invested in outcomes. I don't see this trend reversing, to be honest. It's not getting easier, for anyone.

All this to say, if you're in earnest, find a referral (immigration attorneys that advertise are often suspect to some, it's a little industry of it's own, stringing people along, taking their money, telling them lies, etc.), and pick up a phone.

I would act now, without delay.

[Steophan]

Originally Posted by Malthus

If there is any question as to whether they are a real lawyer or not, the Law Society of Upper Canada has a list or real, licenced lawyers.

UPPER Canada? What's Lower Canada, the US?

[elbows]

Our country, in it's infancy, was once divided into Upper and Lower Canada.

This society dates to those times.

(You really are only taught American history, aren't you?)

[StephenG]

Originally Posted by Steophan

UPPER Canada? What's Lower Canada, the US?

Quebec and Labrador: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Canada

[Steophan]

Originally Posted by elbows

Our country, in it's infancy, was once divided into Upper and Lower Canada.

This society dates to those times.

(You really are only taught American history, aren't you?)

No, I'm not American, and it was a joke. Clearly a bad one, but meh.

[Loach]

Originally Posted by elbows

Our country, in it's infancy, was once divided into Upper and Lower Canada.

This society dates to those times.

(You really are only taught American history, aren't you?)

Why would we be taught the minutia of Canadian history? I mean really, a tidbit like that is just a trivia question to anyone outside of Canada.

[Northern Piper]

Me, I always think of North Dakota as Lower Saskatchewan. .

[Northern Piper]

To get back to the OP - I would suggest you call the Law Society of Upper Canada and ask for contact info for lawyers working in the area of immigration and citizenship.

Then, I would start calling lawyers on that list. I agree with previous posts by Canadian lawyers. I get so many spam e-mails, particularly from abroad, that I just ignore them. Actual phone calls, possibly with a follow-up personal meeting, will likely get you better results. And be prepared to prove who you are - there have been a lot of scams targeting Canadian lawyers, particularly cross-border.

If you might want to drive up to Canada to meet a lawyer, one option might be to look for a lawyer in Kingston, which is closer to NYC than Toronto is.

Good luck !

[Northern Piper]

By the way, pseudotriton ruber ruber, although I don't know anything about the intricacies of Canadian citizenship law, it sounds to me like you're not looking at an immigration issue, but a citizenship one. If you can prove you are a Canadian citizen, then you have the constitutional right to come to Canada to live; you don't have to go through immigration:

Originally Posted by Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms

6. (1) Every citizen of Canada has the right to enter, remain in and leave Canada.

(2) Every citizen of Canada and every person who has the status of a permanent resident of Canada has the right

a) to move to and take up residence in any province; and

b) to pursue the gaining of a livelihood in any province.

Not intended as legal advice, of course - as I say, I don't know very much at all about citizenship law.

You might want to check out this video and the links it mentions:

Waking Up Canadian.

[Blackberry]

It's the wigs.

[Spoons]

Originally Posted by Blackberry

It's the wigs.

No wigs on lawyers or judges in Canada. Fancy robes, yes (aren't the robes of the Supreme Court justices referred to as "Santa Claus suits"?). But no wigs.

[Kenm]

No gavels, either.

[Dr. Drake]

I filed for Canadian citizenship myself, based on having one Canadian-born parent. It was a piece of cake: take the forms, photos, documents, and the fee to the Consulate; wait a couple of weeks for my shiny new citizenship card. Eleven years later, I really DID immigrate to Canada, sponsoring my partner at the same time. No problems.

Honestly, look at the form before you go consulting a lawyer. It is merely a matter of registering your birth abroad a few decades late. A phrase that might be useful for googling is "Canadian born abroad," which is you. And me!

[The Flying Dutchman]

I've e-mailed several Canadian law firms, several times , involved in a class action lawsuit that my deceased father is part of inquiring as to the status of the claim, but I never get a reply.

[elbows]

Lots of places set up web presences with great intentions, but they lose interest quickly, are overwhelmed with nonsense, and can't be bothered to really maintain it/tend to it.

Apparently this cannot be said often enough. I contact companies on the web regularly who I never hear from again. So I've given up on that and now I phone. Y'all should try it, really.

[Blackberry]

Originally Posted by Spoons

No wigs on lawyers or judges in Canada. Fancy robes, yes (aren't the robes of the Supreme Court justices referred to as "Santa Claus suits"?). But no wigs.

Really? But that would mean the made-for-TV movie I once saw wasn't accurate, and that can't be it.

[Hari Seldon]

Just for the record. Upper and lower refer to the St. Lawrence River. So Upper Canada meant roughly what we now call Ontario and Lower Canada to Quebec. I never hard Newfoundland called that but it would be reasonable to include Labrador.

[Quercus]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

Me, I always think of North Dakota as Lower Saskatchewan. .

Well, sure, so do most of us from the U.S.

[antonio107]

Originally Posted by Spoons

No wigs on lawyers or judges in Canada. Fancy robes, yes (aren't the robes of the Supreme Court justices referred to as "Santa Claus suits"?). But no wigs.

My torts professor told me I could wear a wig if I wanted to, but a judge might think I was being extremely disrespectful.

Also, he mentioned that, through watching the English lawyers fumble with them in ICJ and ICC work he's done, that they look very uncomfortable. But I still want one.

[Kenm]

Originally Posted by antonio107

Also, he mentioned that, through watching the English lawyers fumble with them in ICJ and ICC work he's done, that they look very uncomfortable. But I still want one.

Start saving up.

[antonio107]

Originally Posted by Kenm

Start saving up.

[matt_mcl]

Originally Posted by Hari Seldon

Just for the record. Upper and lower refer to the St. Lawrence River. So Upper Canada meant roughly what we now call Ontario and Lower Canada to Quebec. I never hard Newfoundland called that but it would be reasonable to include Labrador.

Labrador was transferred from the colony of Lower Canada to the colony of Newfoundland in 1809; the boundary of Labrador was set by the British Privy Council in 1927, a result Quebec has never formally accepted.

Following the Conquest in 1763, the colony of Quebec (covering the St. Lawrence watershed and Labrador) was divided into Upper and Lower Canada in 1791. The two were re-merged into one colony, the Province of Canada, in 1841, and referred to as Canada East and Canada West; they were split apart again into the provinces of Ontario and Quebec upon Confederation in 1867.

[Muffin]

Think of it this way. You are competing against other potential clients for a lawyer's time, and odds are that the lawyer is much more willing to spend time conversing with your competitors who use the telephone rather than you who uses email. The reasons for the lawyer's telephone preference, and the problem of the lawyer advertising email availability but not responding, are not relevant to your problem. What is relevant is that the lawyer will only spend a limited amount of time communicating with potential clients, so you need to be more competitive in your appoach by getting referred and using the phone.

Your best option is to have your lawyer contact a Canadian lawyer with whom he or she has some personal or professional connection. If you do not have a lawyer, or if your lawyer does not have Canadian contacts, then your next best bet is to call a Canadian lawyer who specializes in citizenship/immigration and state right up front: "I wish to retain a lawyer for a citizenship matter. What is your retainer and what is your hourly rate? Would you kindly return my call so that we can discuss the matter?" Those are the magic words, provided that they are made over the phone.

As far as the reasons for lawyers prefering initial telephone contact, I can can only speak for myself.

Most of my clients are referred to me by other lawyers or by other clients. I take these referrals seriously, for the odds are that they are not tire kickers. A lot of people call a lawyer without either the intention or the funds to hire the lawyer, so if the lawyer knows that the caller is not a tire kicker, that caller goes to the front of the line.

A few folks call after coming across me in the Yellow Pages or on the internet. I can get a lot of information out of them, and get a good feel for them (the sniff test), by speaking with them over the telephone.

Occasionally, someone will intitiate contact by email. If the email originated from a local ISP, I'll usually reply, but if it is from out of the country, I'll probably put it on the back burner, for it takes time to sort out the occasional legit emails from the scams that I receive daily. Once the many scammers are filtered out, there still remains the problem of folks who initiate contact via email more often than not wanting to have a conversation by email, which takes far more of my time than a telephone conversation. Since I earn by the minute, I don't want to waste my time typing away in email chains, so my responses are usually quite short, and I try to set up an appointment for a brief telelephone conversation.

[Spoons]

Muffin, I'm going to have to remember the term "tire kicker." I meet enough of them, and now I know what to call them!

[md2000]

Originally Posted by Hari Seldon

Just for the record. Upper and lower refer to the St. Lawrence River. So Upper Canada meant roughly what we now call Ontario and Lower Canada to Quebec. I never hard Newfoundland called that but it would be reasonable to include Labrador.

IIRC, Quebec still has not accepted the boundary drawn in the 1920's for Labrador, and insists a large chunk of Newfoundland territory is theirs.