Ellen Cherry, question about the jokes in the Dark Knight shooting thread.

[TubaDiva]

Hey, I have a friend who just sent me a picture of what remains of his mother's house -- an arsonist burned it down the other night.

How about I share a link with you so you can go crack wise about that? I'm sure it will help my friend cope better.

[elbows]

Hmm. I wonder if that is somehow some component of humor.

Carte Blanche to say any offensive thing, any time, on the pretext that it's humour, awesome!

[lorene]

Originally Posted by Una Persson

Huh. Given some of the names in the MPSIMS thread I was expecting far more tasteless, crude, stupid, and assholic things to be posted there. But even I, who tends to be more easily offended than most, didn't really see much wrong with the posts.

Talk about damning with faint praise.

Originally Posted by Una Persson

As I said, I expected much worse in the thread. I was pleasantly surprised with how restrained some folks who typically are over the top were. I'm sure when the off-board snark starts about me posting in here they'll be far less restrained.

News flash!! This situation is actually not about you.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Originally Posted by elbows

Carte Blanche to say any offensive thing, any time, on the pretext that it's humour, awesome!

You and Tubadiva are getting a bit silly. If you have to start pretending that folks are suggesting that we can say offensive things at any time on the pretext of humor, then you should just drop the argument altogether. No one is suggesting that I should walk into a funeral and start making knock knock jokes on the coffin. Why would I want to hurt the loved ones there in that way.

I mean, really. Nevertheless, I have made jokes at my own expense in life and death situations. So, my opinion of what is ok certainly differs from yours. I concede, though, that if dopers are hurt in the dark knight shooting thread, then it is a good idea not to add to their hurt with jokes.

[Blank Slate]

Originally Posted by TubaDiva

Hey, I have a friend who just sent me a picture of what remains of his mother's house -- an arsonist burned it down the other night.

How about I share a link with you so you can go crack wise about that? I'm sure it will help my friend cope better.

If you have a burning desire to share, go right ahead. Nobody will flame you.

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by Blank Slate

If you have a burning desire to share, go right ahead. Nobody will flame you.

F-

[Peremensoe]

Originally Posted by Una Persson

But that's a totally different situation - aren't you joking to sort of cope with having to work the scene that's right there in your face?

I don't know why it should be totally different for people who aren't physically present. You don't think that people can be shocked by what they see in news coverage, and have similar coping devices?

Which is not to say that shock and coping are behind all such joking, either in person or at a distance. But who are you to rule it out?

[C K Dexter Haven]

Originally Posted by Morgenstern

So the next time some poster posts about his wife being in the hospital fighting for her life, feel free to post jokes about it. Common sense should otherwise answer your question.

In the past, our policy (NOT rule, just common courtesy to other posters) has been that jokes about an individual poster's tragic situation are not appropriate. "My brother committed suicide last night" is not a thread for jokes. "Someone burned themselves protesting [government policy]" is OK for jokes, so long as the person involved isn't a close relative of a poster. Suicide bombers (as a general topic) are OK for jokes.

So, our bottom line in the past has always been that we should have some courtesy and respect for other posters. Having said that, we usually haven't needed to enforce that policy with anything more than a gentle reminder to please respect other posters. We also respect "free speech" and the right of people to act like an insensitive asshole if they want to. Ellen was following our tradition in politely asking people to hold it down for a while.

It seems to me that the "time limit" on jokes in tragic situations is enough time to be reasonably sure that none of our posters is personally affected. Yes, I'm a firm believer in "every man's death diminishes me," but the degree of diminishment certainly varies. If one of our posters had a loved one killed or injured in this horror, jokes would be rude, unnecessarily distressing, and irritating (at the least.) It's not a question of excruciatingly poor taste (although that's a sub-text), it's a matter of not being rude and insensitive to other posters.

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by C K Dexter Haven

If one of our posters had a loved one killed or injured in this horror, jokes would be rude, unnecessarily distressing, and irritating (at the least.) It's not a question of excruciatingly poor taste (although that's a sub-text), it's a matter of not being rude and insensitive to other posters.

But absent being told, there's no way for us to know that until somebody says something. We're back to a time frame question. Granted if jokes are flying and someone says "hey my sister died" the jokes should move to a different thread (preferably in the Pit). By absent that, is there a rule about how long we should wait to see if someone here was personally affected?

[Loach]

Originally Posted by Una Persson

But that's a totally different situation - aren't you joking to sort of cope with having to work the scene that's right there in your face? I can respect that. However, most all of the rest of the folks being tastelessly crude don't have that excuse.
:

Mostly because it's a job like any other and after the initial excitement it's just another day at work.

Originally Posted by TubaDiva

Hey, I have a friend who just sent me a picture of what remains of his mother's house -- an arsonist burned it down the other night.

How about I share a link with you so you can go crack wise about that? I'm sure it will help my friend cope better.

I don't have any good arson material but I'll give it a shot.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by cmyk

Speaking of, how do you get seven astronauts to fit in one car?

Originally Posted by cmyk

SPOILER:

Three in the front, three in the back, one in the ash tray

Too soon?

Nope. Too late.


mmm

[PlainJain]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

F-

Grading fail.

[BigT]

This sort of thing has been board policy for a while. You did not overstep your authority. People who want gallows humor can open up their own thread where they won't be offending people. I've seen various RIP threads where people making jokes were warned.

There's been exactly one thread where I've seen this stuff accepted, and that was the 9/11 thread, and even there the mods said they'd normally not allow such a thread.

And it's not a coping mechanism if you found it actually funny. The entire point of a coping mechanism is that it helps you cope. If you had nothing to do with it and just laughed because it was unexpected, you were not using it as a coping mechanism, so that defense is invalid

And, frankly, it's rather selfish of you to cope with something by cracking jokes to people who have indicated they are offended by such and are already hurting. Just because you are actually using it as a coping mechanism doesn't mean it's a good one.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Exactly ONE poster has claimed they used the humor as a coping mechanism. ONE. Every single other reference to 'coping' has been made by posters on the other side of the debate. I think it's time to stop clinging to that to make your point. It's getting a bit crazy.

How about a dose of sheer honesty. Those making the jokes will admit it has fuck all to do with a coping mechanism and everything to do with just loving to laugh and not finding sensationalistic news stories out of bounds of joke fodder. These same jokers should be sweet and check that all dopers are safe and sound and accounted for before the jokes begin. That may feel a bit weird to us, but it's a sweet thing to do for a community we care about.

The other side should be honest about their reasoning. If your gripe is honestly that you want to make sure that no dopers have loved ones or are themselves victims of these kinds of events, then that is valid. If your gripe is just that you don't think gallows humor is ok when the event is still very fresh and new, then you should admit to that and not hide behind the 'what if dopers know someone who was hurt' banner. Without that banner to stand behind, you may have to accept that some dopers humor is different from yours and that they may cross you since there are no rules against black humor in those kinds of threads. A dose of raw honesty on both sides can go a long way.

[Becky2844]

Had to think about this... I'm always a day late and a dollar short.

Ellen Cherry reacted like a human being. From the gut.

Horror is subjective. We perceive it and react to it in different ways.

At the risk of sounding like a cliche (and I've already lost some of y'all,) (and what are stereotypes anyway, if not easy-to-point-to examples?)...if you've never held/cared for/lost a loved one, you may not want to feel that heaviness of loss.

I understand that oomph! to the belly/I survived! outbreak of laughter. It's a gift, really. Mostly held by the young. A precious (if that means fleeting) thing.

I don't begrudge anybody a laugh. I love humor, both dark and white meat. Sometimes I've continued to try it even after the music's stopped, the lights have gone up and it's time to go home.

Try not to judge those of us who feel the shadows. And we'll try not to judge those of you who need to laugh.

[Becky2844]

Originally Posted by Nzinga, Seated

You and Tubadiva are getting a bit silly. If you have to start pretending that folks are suggesting that we can say offensive things at any time on the pretext of humor, then you should just drop the argument altogether. No one is suggesting that I should walk into a funeral and start making knock knock jokes on the coffin. Why would I want to hurt the loved ones there in that way.

I mean, really. Nevertheless, I have made jokes at my own expense in life and death situations. So, my opinion of what is ok certainly differs from yours. I concede, though, that if dopers are hurt in the dark knight shooting thread, then it is a good idea not to add to their hurt with jokes.

Knock knock jokes on a coffin? I think you'd only do that if your Letter (you might have to have been brought up religious in a southern Christian church to understand this reference) resided at the Westboro Baptist Church. And I don't believe that's where you're coming from.

[C K Dexter Haven]

Originally Posted by C K Dexter Haven

If one of our posters had a loved one killed or injured in this horror, jokes would be rude, unnecessarily distressing, and irritating (at the least.) It's not a question of excruciatingly poor taste (although that's a sub-text), it's a matter of not being rude and insensitive to other posters.

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

But absent being told, there's no way for us to know that until somebody says something. We're back to a time frame question. Granted if jokes are flying and someone says "hey my sister died" the jokes should move to a different thread (preferably in the Pit). By absent that, is there a rule about how long we should wait to see if someone here was personally affected?

There's no particular guidelines except common sense. In most situations, a day seems not unreasonable. I grant you, if some poster did lose a loved one, going to post on a message board would not seem to be a high priority to me. The trick is to balance between respect for our fellow Dopers and allowing people to be tasteless assholes if they wish. A short time frame doesn't seem unreasonable. Might we find out in two weeks that someone on our boards was tragically affected? Sure. I'm not trying to argue for a perfect system, I'm just trying to ask that we try for reasonable balance.

And please note, we don't need an exact timeframe if we're not issuing warnings. We're just politely asking people to please be considerate for a while.

So, in this as in all things, it's a matter of individual situations -- remembering that our goal is the creation of an online "community" with reasonable degrees of courtesy and respect for each other.

[RaftPeople]

I propose the following unambiguous formula for determining waiting time before jokes:

(log(initial body count) * 20 minutes)
+
((number of babies confirmed dead ^ .5) * 7 minutes)
-
(distance from USA * 3 minutes)

[elbows]

Is no one going to address the elephant in the room?

Fine I'll do it! Why, oh why, is the offensive inserted joke, never, ever actually funny? Why is it always lame, lame, lame? Unfailingly, it seems to me.

Even if you believe passionately in the principle, you don't find it a little coincidental that it's always unsophisticated, cheap, lame humour, you're defending?

[RaftPeople]

Originally Posted by elbows

Is no one going to address the elephant in the room?

Fine I'll do it! Why, oh why, is the offensive inserted joke, never, ever actually funny? Why is it always lame, lame, lame? Unfailingly, it seems to me.

Even if you believe passionately in the principle, you don't find it a little coincidental that it's always unsophisticated, cheap, lame humour, you're defending?

Uh, so you think you can judge humor on an objective scale? That your analysis of what is funny is the scale that applies to all humans?

[Beastly Rotter]

Originally Posted by RaftPeople

I propose the following unambiguous formula for determining waiting time before jokes:

(log(initial body count) * 20 minutes)
+
((number of babies confirmed dead ^ .5) * 7 minutes)
-
(distance from USA * 3 minutes)

Good, but it needs a line to include colour of victims' skin. 145 dead in last week's ferry sinking in Tanzania = not a peep ; twelve Batman fans = OMG I SAW A BOB DENVER CHRISTMAS SPECIAL ONCE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN ME

[elbows]

Uh, so you think you can judge humor on an objective scale? That your analysis of what is funny is the scale that applies to all humans?

I neither think that, nor said that, in fact.

But I do think it's telling that it's always inanely stupid humor. Just an observation, not a tsar like wish to rule all humor, sorry to disappoint.

[stpauler]

Originally Posted by elbows

Is no one going to address the elephant in the room?

Fine I'll do it! Why, oh why, is the offensive inserted joke, never, ever actually funny? Why is it always lame, lame, lame? Unfailingly, it seems to me.

Even if you believe passionately in the principle, you don't find it a little coincidental that it's always unsophisticated, cheap, lame humour, you're defending?

Lemme guess. Your parents were wealthy socialites of Gotham City. You were eight at the time and were out together for the screening of "The Mask of Zorro" until a gang of clowns came in and told jokes. Your parents, being uptight folks, tried to stifle their laughs and ended up dying of brain embolisms. From then on you were determined to set an injustice right and clean up all areas of funny things.

[RaftPeople]

Originally Posted by Beastly Rotter

Good, but it needs a line to include colour of victims' skin. 145 dead in last week's ferry sinking in Tanzania = not a peep ; twelve Batman fans = OMG I SAW A BOB DENVER CHRISTMAS SPECIAL ONCE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN ME

True, formula to be revised as follows:
-(distance from white of average victim skin color * 6.5 minutes)


But in my defense, the original formula did account for distance from USA, which partially handles the Tanzania incident.

[RaftPeople]

Originally Posted by elbows

I neither think that, nor said that, in fact.

But I do think it's telling that it's always inanely stupid humor. Just an observation, not a tsar like wish to rule all humor, sorry to disappoint.

Ok, then how do you know whether the jokes are funny or not to most on the board?

To you they may not be and to others they may be hilarious and to others somewhere in between.

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by C K Dexter Haven

In most situations, a day seems not unreasonable.

And please note, we don't need an exact timeframe if we're not issuing warnings. We're just politely asking people to please be considerate for a while.

So, in this as in all things, it's a matter of individual situations -- remembering that our goal is the creation of an online "community" with reasonable degrees of courtesy and respect for each other.

First, please let me know that I really do appreciate the reasonable tone taken so far. Would that all mod-member interactions could be handled this way.

However, one of the aspects of dark humor is that it almost always has to come "too soon". Once people are reconciled to an event, the humor either fades (assuming, unlike elbows, you thought there was humor there to begin with) or becomes predictable.

It's been mentioned earlier in the thread, but to me, the difference here is location:
MPSIMS - No crass jokes for at least a day (if ever)
The Pit - Free-fire zone from minute one to eternity

Personally I could live with that as a general guideline...

[cmyk]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

Nope. Too late.


mmm

Dammit! But that's the only "tragedy" joke I remember when I was in the 6th grade.

[cmyk]

Originally Posted by PlainJain

Grading fail.

F+?

[elbows]

Ok, then how do you know whether the jokes are funny or not to most on the board?

I never claimed to 'know whether the jokes are funny or not to most of the board'.

I was simply making an observation. Sincerely. No ulterior motive, I promise. I'm not trying to decide any thing, speak for anyone else, or any other sinister thing you're imagining.

I simply made the observation that it seems to be always, lame, sophomoric and not funny, when it does happen.

You may feel otherwise. I am okay with that, truly.

[Una Persson]

Originally Posted by Peremensoe

I don't know why it should be totally different for people who aren't physically present. You don't think that people can be shocked by what they see in news coverage, and have similar coping devices?

Which is not to say that shock and coping are behind all such joking, either in person or at a distance. But who are you to rule it out?

Upon thinking it over some, I see your point and agree with you.

[Boyo Jim]

I'd like to think that if I were in the theater at the time I'd try to talk the guy into shooting older, fatter, uglier people than me. But if I were at the movie, odds are good I would be the oldest fattest, ugliest target there.

So I'd like to think my last words would be telling him that his mama's so fat she needs an assault rifle to scratch her ass.

I'd like to think that, but I'd probably be huddled down pissing my pants.

I agree with the OP. There is no too soon here. And if I was there outside the theater, I would have been asking, "Where the FUCK was Batman?" Then we would find out if any of the survivors were carrying concealed weapons.

[bengangmo]

Originally Posted by Blank Slate

If you have a burning desire to share, go right ahead. Nobody will flame you.

You sir, are an evil bastard. And I'm laughing like a loon

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by Nzinga, Seated

Really? Because I have a baby in my hand that JUST DIED!!!!

Note to self: do NOT go to see Nzinga's ventriloquist act.

Still too soon?

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by Zakalwe

It's been mentioned earlier in the thread, but to me, the difference here is location:
MPSIMS - No crass jokes for at least a day (if ever)
The Pit - Free-fire zone from minute one to eternity

Personally I could live with that as a general guideline...

Me too.

[Cartooniverse]

Originally Posted by Ellen Cherry

Now stop that!

Oh god, you're hot.

[Ellen Cherry]

I'm going to pretend that you posted that after seeing a real photo of me, so I can feel all worshiped and everything.

[oxpictus]

I think it is a matter of taste. Dark humor about the general state of woe of the human race seems acceptable. Gallows humor has always been around, but making light of a blatant massacre is in poor taste, IMHO. Unsuspecting people were murdered. Families were changed horribly, forever. Imagine one of your loved ones being in the line of fire. Devastating.