Red hair like the Joker... how is this happening?

[WOOKINPANUB]

I contributed a sincere WAG because it seemed a sort of rational question, but now all I can hear, for the second time in as many weeks - sorry, I don't recall the other thread- is the OP being posited in Sheldon Cooper's voice.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Marley23

At least one person who knew the shooter in 2008 mentioned that he was a Batman fan. That doesn't mean there is a straight line between his fandom and the shooting, of course.

The quote I saw was: ' "There were times when he would talk about superheroes. He was really into that," she said. "Batman was one of them." ' Its not really clear from that quote if was really into Batman so much as comic books in general (he was a science PhD candidate, so an interest in comic books isn't exactly shocking). And its a quote from someone who already knew that Holmes shot up a Batman movie, so I'd presume the specific mention of Batman is because the person is trying to link what they knew of Holmes to the movie.

The other piece of evidence I saw a few places was that Holmes left a message at a gun range that was reported to be trying to imitate the Joker. But the actual quote from the gun range owner was that he'd left a bizarre message and that "“In hindsight, looking back -- and if I’d seen the movies -- maybe I’d say it was like the Joker -- I would have gotten the Joker out of it,” Rotkovich said. “It was like somebody was trying to be as weird as possible,”"

Again its someone stretching to connect Holmes to Batman after the fact, and in this case the person in question hasn't even seen the movie.

In general, I think most or all of the evidence that Holmes specifically targeted a Batman movie, as opposed to just a crowded movie with a lot of gun violence to cover up his own firing, is from people bending the details after the fact to connect stuff Holmes did prior to the shooting to the film franchise.

[Rune]

I don’t think The Joker is very well known in Europe. Darth Vader is of course, as a second I’d say the guy in James Bond with the white cat or the other one with steel teeth.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

...In general, I think most or all of the evidence that Holmes specifically targeted a Batman movie, as opposed to just a crowded movie with a lot of gun violence to cover up his own firing, is from people bending the details after the fact to connect stuff Holmes did prior to the shooting to the film franchise.

I would say that the main evidence is a police officer telling the press that the suspect said the words, "I am the Joker".

That is shaky evidence indeed. But I would say it is more evidence than all those other things you mentioned.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Nzinga, Seated

I would say that the main evidence is a police officer telling the press that the suspect said the words, "I am the Joker".

I mentioned upthread that was the only piece of "real" evidence.

But the only source for it appears to be a police commissioner in the NYPD who heard it third hand through the Feds. The Colorado PD won't verify it.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

The quote I saw was: ' "There were times when he would talk about superheroes. He was really into that," she said. "Batman was one of them." ' Its not really clear from that quote if was really into Batman so much as comic books in general

I cannot understand for the life of me why this would make a difference. The quote says he was into comic books including Batman.

And its a quote from someone who already knew that Holmes shot up a Batman movie, so I'd presume the specific mention of Batman is because the person is trying to link what they knew of Holmes to the movie.

Yes, true. But it sounds like there is a link. It doesn't indicate he was into Batman to some kind of crazy degree, but it does demonstrate a pre-existing interest.

I think most or all of the evidence that Holmes specifically targeted a Batman movie, as opposed to just a crowded movie with a lot of gun violence to cover up his own firing, is from people bending the details after the fact to connect stuff Holmes did prior to the shooting to the film franchise.

I think you're reaching a bit. There is some evidence he was a Batman fan and didn't just pick the movie at random. It might not be overwhelming and it doesn't justify a lot of the speculative nonsense in the coverage, but it's one factoid.

[Nzinga, Seated]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

I mentioned upthread that was the only piece of "real" evidence.

But the only source for it appears to be a police commissioner in the NYPD who heard it third hand through the Feds. The Colorado PD won't verify it.

Er..yeah. I know.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I cannot understand for the life of me why this would make a difference. The quote says he was into comic books including Batman.

Which is being reported as a "Batman fan", which isn't really what the quote said.

It doesn't really matter one way or another of course. Whether Holmes's particular paranoid delusion was focused on Batman or podpeople or whatever doesn't matter to anyone but him.

I just think its an interesting example of how the press, and people in general, come up with a narrative and then stretch stuff to fit that narrative. Red hair become a Joker costume, "into superheroes" becomes "Batman fan", a voicemail with "slurring words" becomes "trying to sound like the Joker".

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

Which is being reported as a "Batman fan", which isn't really what the quote said.

It's reasonable to interpret 'He was really into superheroes, including Batman' as 'Batman fan.'

a voicemail with "slurring words" becomes "trying to sound like the Joker".

That one doesn't work for me either. I doubt I'll ever heard the voicemail message but it sounds more like a description of Christian Bale's Batman voice than anything I remember Ledger doing.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Marley23

It's reasonable to interpret 'He was really into superheroes, including Batman' as 'Batman fan.'

"Batman fan" to me makes it sound like he had a specific thing for Batman. And maybe he did, but the actual quote makes it pretty clear that the "including Batman" thing was added because the speaker knew people were interested in linking Holmes to Batman, not that she knew he had any specific love of Batman as opposed to other Superheroes.

With the quote regarding the voicemail, its even more clear the gun-range guy is answering a question specifically aimed at trying to get him to link the voice to the Joker.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

"Batman fan" to me makes it sound like he had a specific thing for Batman.

I think we're at the hairsplitting stage now. Nobody asserted that he was a Batman fan to the exclusion of all other things or comic books or that he had no interests outside of Batman. There is an indication - not concrete proof, but an indication - that he picked the movie for a reason, and I think that's all it should be seen as.

And maybe he did, but the actual quote makes it pretty clear that the "including Batman" thing was added because the speaker knew people were interested in linking Holmes to Batman, not that she knew he had any specific love of Batman as opposed to other Superheroes.

You can't know that based on the quote.

With the quote regarding the voicemail, its even more clear the gun-range guy is answering a question specifically aimed at trying to get him to link the voice to the Joker.

Again, you're inferring something that is not clear based on the quote. The question could have been as simple as "What did the voicemail message sound like?" I agree it sounds like the Joker connection is something that has just occurred to the speaker and which didn't cross his mind at the time; I think it's unlikely that someone hearing it without knowing the source would think of the Joker unless there were some movie references in there.

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Other people have speculated that he was dressed as Bane based on his gas mask even though the mask was functional and not a costume choice. The angle is just too tempting for some people to ignore, which is unfortunate because it's really stupid and kind of childish. Even if he'd been in perfect Heath Ledger getup, the driving force behind his actions was the fact that he's a psycho. So what if he happened to latch onto the Batman franchise instead of blaming it on Jesus or his neighbor's dog? A sick brain - hell, a healthy one, too - can pluck meaning and messages out of anything.

What I find oddly scary about the whole thing and others find fascinating is that being driven to do horrible things because you're a psycho is very Joker-like. Since we don't know much yet the rational thing to do is wait but it's a scenario apt to letting the mind race and fill in scary details.

If someone dressed up like Darth Vader and shot up a Star Wars showing it'd be much easier to see him as the psycho he is - Darth Vader isn't supposed to be psycho. Or if we learned Holmes was ordered by god to kill devils, he'd become his own psycho.

But with no information except that he's a crazy person who kills innocent people and the connection to Batman, it just makes him seem very Joker-like. As an extremely casual batman fan I find it creepy to think of there being a real life Joker. Not to say any of that is rational or accurate, but I think it's natural.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop

What I find oddly scary about the whole thing and others find fascinating is that being driven to do horrible things because you're a psycho is very Joker-like. [...] As an extremely casual batman fan I find it creepy to think of there being a real life Joker. Not to say any of that is rational or accurate, but I think it's natural.

The Joker wouldn't do anything as pedestrian as shoot up a movie theater, but I understand what you're saying. Even people who are seriously mentally ill don't usually do things like this, and it's horrible to think of someone bringing this kind of character to life. It's hard avoid the idea even if we don't know that's what happened.

[Martini Enfield]

Originally Posted by Lasciel

I would really rather them repeat multiple times that he was dressed in kevlar, and that he told a police officer that he was the Joker, which is the actual truth, makes his mental state a bit more clear, and doesn't make everyone worried about harmless freaks like me who like dressing up in costume for fun events rather than for mayhem.

[...]

I understand that it's not going to happen, because the truth isn't a neat soundbyte that leads directly into a superficial examination of "violent movies" influencing behavior for their news show, but yes, it does bother me.

The thing that might be worth mentioning is that a typical journalist (myself included) knows, very approximately, bugger all about comic books. Does the Joker have red hair?* It sounds right. The Joker's basically like an Evil Clown, right? Clowns can have red hair.

Journalists do not have the time to go and start looking through endless wikis or discussion boards to work out if a comic book and movie character generally has red hair or not.

When you're on super-urgent-violating-the-laws-of-time-&-physics deadline and something as newsworthy as that event has taken place, it's really not a huge stretch for the suspect reportedly saying "I am the Joker" to police, having dyed hair, and having done something heinous to translate (for the journalist) as: "The Joker is the crazy evil bad guy in those Batman movies and comics they joke about on the Big Bang Theory, right? Perhaps The Joker did wear full Kevlar and shoot up a movie theatre in one of them. It sounds like something the villain in a superhero movie/comic would do. Right, need to get this story written and filed pretty much nowish..." which is one possible explanation for how the "Dressed as The Joker" thing got started.

And once one media outlet's reported it, the others pick up on it (look for phrases like "reportedly" or "was reported to"; this means the person writing the story is acknowleding the information came from another media story), and that's how you end up with the sort of thing being discussed in this thread.

Also, journalists are usually working on more than one thing at a time. I'd suggest for most journalists involved, the "Crazy Guy Shoots Up Movie Theatre; Claims To Be Batman's Nemesis" story is one of the possibly dozen or more other stories they're working on that week.

So, with that in mind, fact-checking the hair colour of the antagonist in a pop-culture series which has multiple incarnations isn't priority number one (or even in the top 20, I'd suggest) for most of the journalists filing stories on the subject. Disappointing to a lot of people? Possibly. But that's just how things work, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Loach

Unless you want to reinforce the stereotype that fanboys are living in their mother's basement completely divorced from reality.

"12 dead in Aurora Co." "OMG his hair should be GREEN!"

Not to pick on the person Loach was responding to here, but this is a valid point. To the average person (not SDMB members), comic books are extremely nerdy and generally read only by geeks who still live with their parents, socially maladjusted oddballs like the cast of The Big Bang Theory, or (maybe) kids. They're not something "normal" people obsess about, in other words.

I'd be willing to be the journalists writing those stories are thinking "For Fuck's Sake, who the fuck cares whether or not The Joker actually has red hair? Someone shot up a movie theatre full of people at a Batman screening and claimed to be The Joker" every time some comic book fan contacts them and says "FYI, The Joker has green hair, not red. Just sayin'."

Rhetorical question; I do actually know the answer

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by Martini Enfield

Not to pick on the person Loach was responding to here, but this is a valid point. To the average person (not SDMB members), comic books are extremely nerdy and generally read only by geeks who still live with their parents, socially maladjusted oddballs like the cast of The Big Bang Theory, or (maybe) kids. They're not something "normal" people obsess about, in other words.

2008's The Dark Knight made eleventy gillion dollars at the box office. The Avengers made eleventy gillion and one dollars earlier this year. The Dark Knight Rises is on its way to making a similar total to both of them.

The average person loves comic book characters (some love the comics themselves, but everyone loves the characters). Pretending they're still for nerds is the last refuge of a "cool class" that doesn't exist anymore. Everyone's a geek today.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Martini Enfield

Journalists do not have the time to go and start looking through endless wikis or discussion boards to work out if a comic book and movie character generally has red hair or not.

If it's relevant to the story, they have time to get it right. This isn't really a matter of factual dispute here: the Joker's hair is green. There is one scene in The Dark Knight where he wears a red wig, which may or may not have anything at all to do with the shooter's getup. And it's not like there are zero journalists who are into comic books. Certainly I would not expect a news story to contain a digression about the Joker's hair, but saying Holmes' hair is red like the character's is inaccurate.

Based on a little random Googling, I see some reports that Holmes' hair is red like the Joker's and others that just say he identified himself as the Joker and that his hair is red. The first is not accurate and the second one is. (Unless you doubt the whole "Joker" thing in the first place, which I do.) This may also be Ray Kelly's fault:

"He had his hair painted red, he said he was The Joker, obviously the enemy of Batman," Kelly said.

Also, "painted?" His hair is dyed. But Kelly appears to be drawing a connection between the red hair and the Joker thing even though there may not be one. I think a lot of reporters have relied on that.

[Martini Enfield]

Originally Posted by Justin_Bailey

The average person loves comic book characters (some love the comics themselves, but everyone loves the characters). Pretending they're still for nerds is the last refuge of a "cool class" that doesn't exist anymore. Everyone's a geek today.

You'll note I said "Comic books", not "Comic book characters". I think pretty much everyone agrees that Batman, Superman, Spiderman et al are both cool and awesome. But there's still a stigma, at least IMHO, against people who are seriously into the comics.

Originally Posted by Marley23

If it's relevant to the story, they have time to get it right. This isn't really a matter of factual dispute here: the Joker's hair is green.

Firstly, no they don't, unfortunately, especially if it's not a core element to the story (core element of the story is "Crazy person allegedly claiming to be The Joker shoots dozens of people in a movie theatre.

As I understand it, there's a huge number of "alternate universes" within the various comic book franchises and it would seem extraordinarily reasonable to me that, in one of them, The Joker has red hair. And possibly dons Kevlar and shoots up a movie theatre. I'm saying that journalists don't have time to go and look for this sort of stuff.

And it's not like there are zero journalists who are into comic books.

Obviously it's not zero, but it's a pretty low number. And it doesn't mean a great deal if those journalists aren't in a position to use that knowledge effectively.

Certainly I would not expect a news story to contain a digression about the Joker's hair, but saying Holmes' hair is red like the character's is inaccurate.

I'm not arguing it's inaccurate, but I'm saying that, in the grand scheme of things, it's not really a big deal considering the main focus of the news story is someone shooting up a movie theatre.

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by Martini Enfield

You'll note I said "Comic books", not "Comic book characters". I think pretty much everyone agrees that Batman, Superman, Spiderman et al are both cool and awesome. But there's still a stigma, at least IMHO, against people who are seriously into the comics.

There's a stigma against people who are seriously into anything. Coins, stamps, baseball cards, baseball, sports in general, cars, tech gadgets, you name it. Anyone who is too into fandom of any kind is looked down as a loser by somebody else.

But beyond that, we're discussing the character of The Joker, which is totally divorced from his comic book origins. Holmes grew up in a world with Batman: The Animated Series, which every kid during his childhood watched religiously. It was followed by a string of Justice League cartoons in which Batman played a huge role. And then there's Batman Begins/Dark Knight/Rises. Even if he never read a single comic book, The Joker (and the whole Batman mythos) is familiar to him and the public at large.

[cmyk]

Just think how embarrassed Holmes must be to get this glaring detail wrong!

Seriously, whether or not he thought he was the Joker, or was looking to just shoot up a large public crowd and chose The Dark Knight Rises on happenstance is besides the point. The media connecting his primary-hair color to the Joker-like massacre at a Batman film screening is just too tantalizing to ignore, wrong color or not.

Also, whether or not the theater employees thought he was just a über fan in costume, with fake gear, or they noticed he was carrying real weapons, other then create pandemonium or get shot themselves, I doubt it would've changed the outcome much.

I don't give a shit if theaters start banning costumes, but i know some do for fun or whatever; most just want to not look silly or be uncomfortable, wearing casual clothes and enjoy the damn movie.

Either way, if some psycho wants to shoot up a theater, a mall, a comicon, or a McDonalds, chances are very likely he'll succeed. And depending on circumstances, or very tenuous connections exaggerated by handwringing zealots, there'll be no shortage of soapboxes.

[cmyk]

Had he shot up a midnight screening of Brave, Pixar fans would start screaming he got the gender wrong. And ninnies and parents from all over would be lamenting about the girl wielding a bow and arrow, despite his use of an assault rifle, demanding animated or family films should ban depicting weapon use.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Martini Enfield

Firstly, no they don't, unfortunately, especially if it's not a core element to the story (core element of the story is "Crazy person allegedly claiming to be The Joker shoots dozens of people in a movie theatre.

They do, and while it's not a core element of the story, the shooting was also more than a week ago. They don't need to explain the Joker's hair color, but any comment to the effect of 'he has red hair like the Joker' is wrong. Even a brief glance at a film still or a biography of the character would resolve that. Nobody's demanding they start leafing through back issues of obscure Batman titles. I think the error here is attributable to Kelly, who did not say flat-out that Holmes dyed his hair like the Joker, but who implied it.

As I understand it, there's a huge number of "alternate universes" within the various comic book franchises and it would seem extraordinarily reasonable to me that, in one of them, The Joker has red hair.

Who cares if it seems reasonable? We're talking about what the case is, not what it might be.

I'm saying that journalists don't have time to go and look for this sort of stuff.

They found the connection between Homles' movie theater shooting and a similar scene in the 1986 The Dark Knight Returns comic within a couple of hours.

I'm not arguing it's inaccurate, but I'm saying that, in the grand scheme of things, it's not really a big deal considering the main focus of the news story is someone shooting up a movie theatre.

No, it's not a big deal. I think the only thing that matters to the people covering this story is that they can attribute the "I am the Joker" claim and the red hair thing to a source - Ray Kelly. If Kelly said those things (which he sort of did), that's good enough. However from a factual standpoint they're wrong and I think that eventually we'll find it's not clear that Holmes ever called himself the Joker. So if he didn't dye his hair like the Joker and didn't call himself the Joker, there's no link between Holmes and the character.

[Zebra]

Maybe the shooter is colorblind and he just picked up the wrong box of hair color.

[garygnu]

Trying for the Joker, ended up with Beaker. If only he had emulated the poor Muppet and only blown himself up.

[Voluble]

Well, if the Joker looked like you expected him to look he wouldn't be a very good Joker would he?

A couple of other things --- apparently he didn't have body armor, just a vest with pockets for ammo. Also, he didn't enter the theater in full regalia but left and propped the door open or had someone let him back in. So in that case the costume ban would have no real effect.

When he was taken into custody they put evidence bags over his hands to preserve any gunshot residue. He reportedly used them as hand-puppets and made them talk to each other. He also is supposedly acting like he remembers none of what happened and is asking why he is in jail. All of the jailors think he is pretending but those actions seem sort of Jokeresque. As do the bombs he planted around his apartment. I am not a big fan but didn't the Joker plant a lot of bombs in his last movie? I think it is fairly unusual for someone who goes on a shooting spree to also rig his apartment to explode. It may have happened in the past but I don't recall it.

So yeah the evidence is weak but the only part that matters is if Holmes really said he was the Joker. He is crazy, but he is also the world's most renowned authority on what James Holmes is thinking at any point in time so who ya gonna believe?

Oh, and it is conceivable he just came up with the Joker comment on the spot seeing as how the movie that was on at the time suggested it to him. He may not have planned things with that specific movie in mind. Given he didn't know how long any of this would take and had been preparing for months that might not be too far out of the realm of plausibility even if he made the comment.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Voluble

Well, if the Joker looked like you expected him to look he wouldn't be a very good Joker would he?

We're now leaving fact land. The guy either looked like the Joker or he didn't and the answer appears to be that he didn't.

A couple of other things --- apparently he didn't have body armor, just a vest with pockets for ammo.

Wikipedia says he had "wore a gas mask, a load-bearing vest, a ballistic helmet, bullet resistant leggings, a throat protector, a groin protector and tactical gloves." I am not sure if those load bearing vests are bullet resistant, but from my layman's perspective that sounds like more than enough to be described as body armor.

All of the jailors think he is pretending but those actions seem sort of Jokeresque.

Once you know he's homicidal and crazy, any crazy thing he does seems "Jokeresque." He'll be examined by psychiatrists eventually. Everybody else is just speculating.

So yeah the evidence is weak but the only part that matters is if Holmes really said he was the Joker.

And we don't know that he did. Ray Kelly says he did, but he got the information secondhand at best. The Aurora police haven't confirmed it. If the statement is discussed during his trial we may find that it was not all that clear-cut.

[Alan Smithee]

Originally Posted by Martini Enfield

I'm not arguing it's inaccurate, but I'm saying that, in the grand scheme of things, it's not really a big deal considering the main focus of the news story is someone shooting up a movie theatre.

This is why people don't trust "traditional" news media. If accuracy in the details isn't a big deal, why should I trust you about things that are a big deal? And frankly, this is a big deal. for over a week, people have been discussing the possible motives of a mass murder, based in large part on this faulty piece of reporting. Major social campaigns have been launched regularly in the past to put a stop to violent video games, television shows, comic books, etc., often on the basis of such reporting, and these things in total have an enormous impact on the culture. On a blog or a website not owned by a news dinosaur, these errors get picked up on and corrected almost immediately, but the old-school media just reporting on themselves in a massive "Chinese whispers" game. Here's a radical suggestion for the media: if you don't have time to fact-check whether the perp was actually dressed like the Joker, don't report that he was. If all you know is that he had red hair and said something about the Joker, then that's all you report.

[Sam A. Robrin]

"You'll never understand, Bat-Brain! He dyed his hair red so when he ran from the cops, they wouldn't chase him because they'd be waiting for his hair to turn green. Hahahahahahah!"

[Martini Enfield]

Originally Posted by Alan Smithee

This is why people don't trust "traditional" news media. If accuracy in the details isn't a big deal, why should I trust you about things that are a big deal? And frankly, this is a big deal. for over a week, people have been discussing the possible motives of a mass murder, based in large part on this faulty piece of reporting. Major social campaigns have been launched regularly in the past to put a stop to violent video games, television shows, comic books, etc., often on the basis of such reporting, and these things in total have an enormous impact on the culture. On a blog or a website not owned by a news dinosaur, these errors get picked up on and corrected almost immediately, but the old-school media just reporting on themselves in a massive "Chinese whispers" game. Here's a radical suggestion for the media: if you don't have time to fact-check whether the perp was actually dressed like the Joker, don't report that he was. If all you know is that he had red hair and said something about the Joker, then that's all you report.

Much of what you say is true. I can't comment too specifically on the way the US media works because I'm not involved with it (and I'm not following the Aurora case too closely because I've got news closer to this corner of the world I need to be focusing on), but I would say that I don't believe the general public understand the pressures journalists work under - and/or journalism is one of those careers where random people quite frequently try to tell you how to do your job.

Personally - and I stress the personally aspect of this - I don't put anything in a story I can't either attribute to someone on the record, another established media outlet or that I've satisfied myself through research is correct to the best of my knowledge. Obviously it's impossible to be 100% right 100% of the time but that's what I aim for.

I guess the point I'm making (quite possibly badly, from the looks of it) is that I completely understand how "Crazy person with dyed red hair reportedly shoots up a movie theatre during a Batman film screening" + "Reportedly claims to be The Joker when apprehended" = "The suspect has 'Red hair like The Joker'" reporting. I don't agree with the fact it's happened, but I do think someone needs to say "Look, it's not an deliberate plot by The Media™ to malign the things you like or purposefully misrepresent the facts, OK?"

[Alan Smithee]

I don't think anyone thinks it is a plot by the media, or is even really confused about how it happened. It was sloppy, lazy reporting by people who think that it isn't a big deal whether the things they report are accurate or not. We seem to agree on that, you just happen to also agree with the reporters that it isn't a big deal.

Sure there is a bit of personal concern that what *I* like isn't being taken seriously by the media, but that's no different than scientists getting upset at how science is nearly always misreported. Everyone wants their interests to be reported on accurately, and the media should strive to report everything accurately. Saying a piece of misreporting is not a big deal not only insults the people who take the thing being reported on seriously, it insults journalists by implying that they just can't do a better job.

[mlees]

Originally Posted by Zebra

Maybe the shooter is colorblind and he just picked up the wrong box of hair color.

Maybe "mint green" was out of stock that day.

[Leaper]

Originally Posted by Martini Enfield

I guess the point I'm making (quite possibly badly, from the looks of it) is that I completely understand how "Crazy person with dyed red hair reportedly shoots up a movie theatre during a Batman film screening" + "Reportedly claims to be The Joker when apprehended" = "The suspect has 'Red hair like The Joker'" reporting. I don't agree with the fact it's happened, but I do think someone needs to say "Look, it's not an deliberate plot by The Media™ to malign the things you like or purposefully misrepresent the facts, OK?"

But doesn't this detail go directly to the issue of whether Batman had a role in the shooter's motives? IE either he didn't actually think he was the Joker, or he wasn't as big a fan of the comics/franchise as everyone thinks, therefore it had nothing to do with his insanity?

[Barkis is Willin']

The man in court has red hair because he's not the shooter!

http://now.msn.com/conspiracy-theory...l-james-holmes

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by Leaper

But doesn't this detail go directly to the issue of whether Batman had a role in the shooter's motives? IE either he didn't actually think he was the Joker, or he wasn't as big a fan of the comics/franchise as everyone thinks, therefore it had nothing to do with his insanity?

This is my problem with the "He had red hair... like The Joker!" line of reporting.

If he was really trying to be The Joker, getting something as iconic as the hair color wrong probably wouldn't have happened. If the voices in his head are saying, "You're The Joker," he should get that part right.

Basically, we've had this discussion (the movies made him do it!) before. Before, only geeks stood up and said, "that doesn't sound right." Now, a lot more people are going

Case in point... my wife loved The Dark Knight (and BB and TDKR) but has no real interest in the rest of Batman's adventures. She noticed the red/green thing before I did.

[mlees]

Originally Posted by Barkis is Willin'

The man in court has red hair because he's not the shooter!

http://now.msn.com/conspiracy-theory...l-james-holmes

http://now.msn.com/westboro-baptist-...urora-memorial

[Ogre]

Jesus, one does not need to look like the canonical Joker in order to "want to watch the world burn." No, he may not have all his geek cred intact, but he apparently shared the Joker's yen for chaos and destruction.

That's close enough for me.

[phreesh]

Martini Enfield nailed it upthread. It's an inconsequential detail that journalists don't fact check.

Some dude shot up a theater?! He had red hair?! He claimed to be the Joker?!


"Up next, shooter with red hair like the Joker kills 12 in Colorado!"

Basically laziness around a fact that doesn't really matter to the story anyway.

That said, I too find it annoying.

[Inner Stickler]

Based on a sample size of myself, I think you are all overestimating just how likely it is that the average person knows what color the joker's hair canonically is.

[Malthus]

Obviously, this guy isn't the real Joker wannabe. That's the shadowy person who put him up to it. The Joker isn't the sort who would just walk into a theatre and shoot the place up. He's more subtle than that.

The red hair is the clue! Beware the REAL Joker wannabe, who is still out there! [/conspiracy]

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by phreesh

Martini Enfield nailed it upthread. It's an inconsequential detail that journalists don't fact check.

Particularly since they have it from a source. Still, not everybody is doing the red hair = Joker thing.

Originally Posted by Malthus

Obviously, this guy isn't the real Joker wannabe.

You think you're kidding, but Barkis is Willin' already posted an example of people who are saying this for real.

[TBG]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Well, yes, but at the risk of making a bunch of people feel old, Jack Nicholson played the character in 1989. The shooter is 24, so if he is talking about the Joker, he is probably talking about Heath Ledger. That's not so much because Ledger was great (although I think he was) as because that would be this guy's pop culture frame of reference.

Because VHS and cable airings of Batman (89) never existed, nor did any of the several Batman cartoons that he would've been the right age to have been spending his afternoons watching as a kid? I can understand someone might not have been exposed to the comic versions, as comics were going more and more direct market only in this asshole's lifetime, but there's no way I can see it more likely than not that his only frame of reference for Joker was in TDK.

I wasn't even born yet when the original Planet of the Apes came out, but if I think of PotA, I think of that, not the Marky Mark one that I saw in a theater in my 20's.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by TBG

there's no way I can see it more likely than not that his only frame of reference for Joker was in TDK.

I didn't say "only." I'm not proposing that he wouldn't know any other versions of the character. I said (in response to a comment that Ledger defined the role for a generation) that Ledger would probably be this guy's frame of reference based on his age because Ledger is the guy who played the Joker on the big screen for that generation of movie viewers.

[Sam A. Robrin]

When editing true crime books, I needed to check facts about role-playing games, so I went to a local shop and asked the clerk. He so overwhelmed me with detail that he insisted absolutely had to be included for accuracy, that I'd have had to expand a few references into three or four paragraphs. I needed to know that the game used a twelve-sided die, not that when you go into dead heat a six-sided one is added, and all the rest. It made me sorry I'd bothered.
So when the news media get a detail like that wrong, I can understand it.

[Enigma42]

Looks like at least one journalist cares about this little detail. I just stumbled across this story , attributed to Terri Pous, which includes:

"Holmes is unmissable, currently sporting a head of bright-orange dyed hair — which he reportedly told authorities he dyed to look like the Joker villain in Batman films, even though the Joker’s hair is typically green."

I thought it was interesting to read this shortly after I finished reading this thread. Maybe Terri Pous is a doper?

[Hail Ants]

I hate to be a troll, but Get a life fanboys! Nobody, and I mean nobody outside of comic book geeks knows or gives a shit what color hair the Joker had, has, or ever will have. Are you kidding me?! Twelve freakin' people were gunned down in cold blood by a lunatic. How does this matter in even the tiniest way?

I know this isn't GD, but what is the issue? Did anyone here really believe that the Joker's hair color was common knowledge? Like Superman's cape? It is every bit an esoteric piece of geek minutia fandom as what color is the bad kryptonite!

"...so move out of your parent's basements, get your own apartments, and live!!!!"

[Peremensoe]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop

What I find oddly scary about the whole thing and others find fascinating is that being driven to do horrible things because you're a psycho is very Joker-like.

Maybe that's what he meant.

Everybody is stuck on the question of him (not) looking like Joker--maybe he had something deeper in mind.

[Ellen Cherry]

Originally Posted by Hail Ants

I hate to be a troll, but Get a life fanboys! Nobody, and I mean nobody outside of comic book geeks knows or gives a shit what color hair the Joker had, has, or ever will have. Are you kidding me?! Twelve freakin' people were gunned down in cold blood by a lunatic. How does this matter in even the tiniest way?

I know this isn't GD, but what is the issue? Did anyone here really believe that the Joker's hair color was common knowledge? Like Superman's cape? It is every bit an esoteric piece of geek minutia fandom as what color is the bad kryptonite!

"...so move out of your parent's basements, get your own apartments, and live!!!!"

Hail Ants, you knew when you posted this you were overstepping. At the very least you're threadshitting; trolling "fanboys" is a bit nastier and most definitely against the rules. Yes, I see the smiley and no, that doesn't make it all right. Cool it.

[Leaper]

Originally Posted by Hail Ants

I hate to be a troll, but Get a life fanboys! Nobody, and I mean nobody outside of comic book geeks knows or gives a shit what color hair the Joker had, has, or ever will have. Are you kidding me?! Twelve freakin' people were gunned down in cold blood by a lunatic. How does this matter in even the tiniest way?

Because, as I said earlier, it goes directly to the question of whether a specific pop culture icon (or the [entertainment] medium in general) had a role in the shooter's motivations, as some newscasters, pundits, and politicians (whom, as you may recall, have the power to pass laws) claim.

[Hail Ants]

Ok, so you're saying that because he dyed his hair red he wasn't actually trying to impersonate The Joker? He just wanted to look weird? Maybe, but didn't he say something like, "I'm the Joker" to the cops? Or did the media get that wrong too? I'm not being sarcastic, I haven't followed the case too closely because, well, it's just a mentally ill guy who killed people. Regardless of what he was wearing or what he may have said he was just crazy, he had no rational agenda. The Batman franchise had nothing to do with it. To me that's the thing that should be common knowledge.

Either way, I still say that the Joker's red/green hair color is so not common knowledge, that even if the crazy guy did want to dress like him he could have easily just gotten it wrong!

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Hail Ants

Ok, so you're saying that because he dyed his hair red he wasn't actually trying to impersonate The Joker? He just wanted to look weird? Maybe, but didn't he say something like, "I'm the Joker" to the cops? Or did the media get that wrong too? I'm not being sarcastic, I haven't followed the case too closely because, well, it's just a mentally ill guy who killed people

Have you considered actually reading the thread you're posting to?

[Hail Ants]

Apparently I've made a terrible mistake. Boy is my face red. I mean hair. I mean green. I mean, I'll be leaving now...