Firefly&Serenity, where are the Chinese?

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

Ron Glass? Gina Torres?

Nine actors in the opening credits. Seven "white," two "black," colors in parentheses because I don't really believe in human races except as a hurtful delusion probably set up by Mephistopheles. Anyway, "almost all-white" sounds right to me.

[silenus]

Morena Baccarin is Brazilian.

[Inner Stickler]

Originally Posted by Ephemera

So? It still happenend.

A) One or two examples of ethnic actors getting roles that would normally go to a white actor is small potatoes given the innumerable number of roles given to whites that could just as easily be given to ethnic actors.
B)You think a studio will be willing to engage in colorblind casting if they were going to have to deal with fanboy racists every time?
C) This thread proves that regardless of her heritage, people aren't thinking of Alba as an ethnic actress.

[gonzoron]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

General attitudes towards sex work are different in the Firefly-versek, as opposed to 21st-century America. Malcolm's ostensible disdain for Inara's profession is the exception, not the rule.

True but irrelevant. We're talking about reaction to the show, not reaction to the character within the fictional 'verse. If 21st century American's find it objectionable that there are no Asians in the main cast when the fictional culture supposedly includes a Chinese influence, changing the actress playing prostitute character from Brazillian to Chinese doesn't really help matters much. That's all we're saying. Inara's a fine character, and not your typical depiction of a prostitute, but it still would be a probelematic choice, IMHO.

[Ephemera]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

A) One or two examples of ethnic actors getting roles that would normally go to a white actor is small potatoes given the innumerable number of roles given to whites that could just as easily be given to ethnic actors.
B)You think a studio will be willing to engage in colorblind casting if they were going to have to deal with fanboy racists every time?
C) This thread proves that regardless of her heritage, people aren't thinking of Alba as an ethnic actress.

You said you guessed minority actors never got roles intended to be played by white actors. I gave counter-examples proving it happens, if rarely. Uncommon ≠ never.

[Anaamika]

A couple of things. I don't like to participate in race-related questions as a rule because I know they're so loaded and I'm not exactly coming to them from a emotionless viewpoint. But here I am all the same. These aren't related or anything, they're just three separate thoughts.

1. I did say "almost all". And you know what, two black people don't count for me....not because I have any problem with blacks but these people are using Chinese and there's Chinese signs and Chinese everywhere...and we couldn't find one Chinese actor? Anywhere? Bull-fucking-shit. Not even for the bit roles? Is there ONE speaking part, anywhere, for a Chinese person? Is there anybody in the entire 13 episode run that is actually Chinese and talks?Why couldn't there be? How about that big guy who married/got engaged to Saffron? One of the people in that little village with the drugs? Someone on the train? If there is, please tell me, because I don't remember anyone.
2. There is no doubt white people consistently get picked over non-whites. There was an article not too long ago in...Vanity Fair? Somewhere? Where they were talking about the promiment upcoming actresses. Everyone of them were white.
3. Asian men do not, as a rule, get white women in movies or in tv shows. Hell, Will Smith is really popular - how many times has he been cast against a white woman and allowed to consumnate the relationship with her? Forget Asian men!


I think Inara could have also been Indian, or Pakistani. I think she would have been equally beautiful. And as I said before, I like the show. I watch a lot of sci-fi and fantasy shows and nearly all of them have all white people and I still love them. But there is no doubt in my mind that Hollywood is mostly racist and mysognistic. Not entirely, things are changing, just like things are changing in sexuality. Actually, this is one of the reasons I watch more British telly - Indians are common in their TV shows, and they are not special because they're Indian. They just happen to be brown Englishpeople.

It IS getting better though. I certainly hope that what's-his-face in Breakfast At Tiffany's would never happen again - Mickey Rooney, that's right. Ruined the movie for me, and I do love Miss Hepburn to death.

As for Thor. Come back and talk to me when Thor himself in Thor is cast by a non-white, not just most of the bad guys. Then maybe I'll acknowledge some color-blindness!

Oh, and lastly - I know Inara is not really a prostitute. It's actually the reason I forget. But that doesn't change the fact that it would be loaded to cast her as Asian, especially if she was the ONLY Asian in the cast. If you had more than one, then you might be able to do it.

ETA:

But you know, when we say things like this, or dare to complain, we get accused of...well, all kinds of things. Like, "Don't watch the movies - no one's asking you to watch them!" Or "There's no white people in Bollywood movies!" (Actually there are.) I mean, there's really no way to win this. I accept I live in a predominantly white country, OK? I love it here! I love the movies and the TV and the culture. I just wish...well, wish in one hand and shit in another and see which gets full first, right?

[Inner Stickler]

Please point out where someone said they were going to give the roles to white actors but the ethnic actors were too good to pass up.

[Lemur866]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Nine actors in the opening credits. Seven "white," two "black," colors in parentheses because I don't really believe in human races except as a hurtful delusion probably set up by Mephistopheles. Anyway, "almost all-white" sounds right to me.

I suppose if there were two white guys and 7 black guys, it might sound OK to say the cast was almost all-black. But still, that's 22% white. Seems like that's not an insignificant percentage.

Anyway, back to the Chinamen. Firefly is a western, set in space. I suppose there's a bit of unconscious or semiconscous bias towards American-looking actors. Plus one half-chinese guy who wanders from town to town.

[Inner Stickler]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

I suppose if there were two white guys and 7 black guys, it might sound OK to say the cast was almost all-black. But still, that's 22% white. Seems like that's not an insignificant percentage.

And 1 out of 4 is 25% but if you had 4 apples and I took 3, I doubt you'd have any difficulty saying I took almost all your apples.

[silenus]

And east is east and west is west, and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.

[storyguide3]

My favourite explanation for the lack of Chinese people (that I read somewhere, perhaps on the Dope some time ago), was that they were all in happy, stable relationships. And this being a Joss Whedon show...

[Anaamika]

When it comes to stewed prunes, are four too many, and two not enough?

[Inner Stickler]

He's quoting Groucho Marx for reasons that are unclear to me.

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

Please point out where someone said they were going to give the roles to white actors but the ethnic actors were too good to pass up.

Michael Clarke Duncan as The Kingpin in Daredevil

Idris Elba as Heimdall in Thor.

These have been mentioned already.

[silenus]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

He's quoting Groucho Marx for reasons that are unclear to me.

Because arguing what percentages of ethnic make-up make an ensemble "black" or "white" is stupid and counter-productive.

Plus, Groucho Marx is always appropriate!

[Inner Stickler]

Originally Posted by Justin_Bailey

Michael Clarke Duncan as The Kingpin in Daredevil

Idris Elba as Heimdall in Thor.

These have been mentioned already.

And again, I repeat my request for a quote from someone involved in the movie who said the role was specifically meant for a white actor but the ethnic actor was too good to pass up, as opposed to a role specifically set aside by the casting director to be a minority.

[sachertorte]

Originally Posted by Justin_Bailey

Michael Clarke Duncan as The Kingpin in Daredevil

Idris Elba as Heimdall in Thor.

These have been mentioned already.

His point is these are not roles that were designated white that then got cast black due to the black actor having a crazy good audition. These roles were intentionally cast black to diversify the cast. One could argue that the movie role was always going to go to a minority despite the pigment of the comic book. If anything its tokenism.

At least thats what I think is going on.


Since I'm a good sport, I'll point to Much Ado about Nothing, where Denzel Washington plays a role that would make more sense if he were white, especially since he is European royalty and the half brother of Keanu.

[Ephemera]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

And again, I repeat my request for a quote from someone involved in the movie who said the role was specifically meant for a white actor but the ethnic actor was too good to pass up, as opposed to a role specifically set aside by the casting director to be a minority.

Wilson Morales: Many comic book fans know that Kingpin is portrayed by a 6’7 430 pound white guy. When the casting of Kingpin came about, how were you brought in the picture? Did you auditioned for the part or were you called?

Michael Clarke Duncan: They called me and offered me the role. The director called me and wanted to have lunch. I thought he was going to offer me something else, maybe a smaller role. When he said he wanted me to play Kingpin, I look at him and said “You know the guy is white, right?” He said yes and still thought I was the best actor for the job and the people at Fox thought I was the best actor for the job. After he told me that, I didn’t have a problem playing the role.

http://blackfilm.com/20030214/featur...keduncan.shtml

The actor himself thought the character should be white while the director and the studio executives thought a black man was the best person for the role.

[Sam Stone]

I always thought the casting was right on, given that the people in the Serenity 'verse started from a small population and that there was therefore much cross-racial breeding going on. The marriage of Wash and Zoe shows that such relationships are considered absolutely normal.

If anything, Wash is the outlier being light haired and blue-eyed. Almost everyone else in the cast looks like a person who is of mixed-race heritage. Even Kaylee has some vaguely oriental features, and Morena Baccarin and Summer Glau have somewhat exotic features. The 'black' people on the show trend more towards mulatto.

Anthropologists will tell you that this is generally the fate of the races on Earth as well. Globalization brings cross-cultural contact and interbreeding, with the result that the human of the future will probably look more like the cast of Firefly than the cast of Baywatch.

[TBG]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Nine actors in the opening credits. Seven "white," two "black," colors in parentheses because I don't really believe in human races except as a hurtful delusion probably set up by Mephistopheles. Anyway, "almost all-white" sounds right to me.

If you don't believe in races, then what difference does it make if the cast is "almost all white"?

[Inner Stickler]

Originally Posted by Ephemera

The actor himself thought the character should be white while the director and the studio executives thought a black man was the best person for the role.

That's still not what I asked for. I'm tired of typing it out.

[Ephemera]

We're even then.

[Rysler]

Kim Fields got the part of "Tootie" in the Facts of Life. She was the only African American to audition among a sea of white girls.

And a dubious example... Sun-Hwa Kwon auditioned for Kate on Lost (a part that eventually went to a white woman), but they liked her as an actor enough to create a new character for her. Still a positive step for Asians on TV, right?

Wicked has famously race-blind casting: Joel Grey/Ben Vereen playing the same part, among others.

Michael Clarke Duncan's character in The Finder was also originally a white guy in the book. Guy gets around.

It does happen. Maybe not as much as it should. But it does.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Rysler

Wicked has famously race-blind casting: Joel Grey/Ben Vereen playing the same part, among others.
<snip>

I don't think Wicked counts for this discussion; that's Broadway, not Hollywood. Nor is it unprecedented. If I recall aright, Phylicia Rashad was the second actress to play the Witch in Sondheim's Into the Woods, the first being Bernadette Peters.

[Tapiotar]

Originally Posted by sachertorte

My nephews are half Chinese and half Caucasian. If you were judging purely on appearance, they appear Caucasian. This is pretty common for part-Asian people. For some reason, the features that look Asian are only prominent on fully Asian people. I have a friend who was something like 15/16 Japanese and he could pass for white if he wanted to.

Really? I doubt it. The two most devastatingly attractive men I ever met were half Asian, half caucasian, and the Asiatic features were very obvious and clear. A relative is half Korean, half caucasian, and her Korean heritage is clear in her looks.

I have relatives of purely northern European origins who look Asiatic, probably due to long distant Siberian origins showing up in the genetic shuffles.

[sachertorte]

Originally Posted by Tapiotar

Really? I doubt it.

What are you doubting? I have a pretty good understanding of what Asian people look like having grown up around them and being one myself. I also have a pretty good understanding of what my own nephews looks like.
I'm not saying that part Asian people CAN'T look Asian, only that part Asian people looking not very Asian at all is commonplace. The existence of a counter-example does not disprove this.

[MadTheSwine]

Cast a white woman as Storm in the next X-Men movie and there will be riots.

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

There were only 13 episodes made. Simplest explanation is just that we never got to them before the series got canned.

14, I think.

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

And again, I repeat my request for a quote from someone involved in the movie who said the role was specifically meant for a white actor but the ethnic actor was too good to pass up, as opposed to a role specifically set aside by the casting director to be a minority.

The characters were both originally white. How does that not fit your hypothetical?

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

Ron Glass? Gina Torres?

Hence the "almost all-white cast."

[Ibn Warraq]

The character "Red" from Stephen King's novella Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redepemption was a white guy who wound up being played by Morgan Freeman in the movie The Shawshank Redemption.

Similarly, Freeman's character Ned Logan in the original script for Unforgiven was white, or at least presumably white and they never adapted the screenplay when Eastwood chose Freeman for the role. That's why you had the odd scenes in the movie where when describing the characters to men trying to track them down references are made to "an old guy on a gray horse and a young guy on a white horse" instead of referring to "an old black guy and a young white guy" and why none of the white rednecks in the whorehouse blink when Ned goes upstairs with a white woman under each arm.

That said, generally Hollywood clearly prefers it the other way around.

The movie 21, about the MIT black jack team, where a bunch of Asian-Americans were turned into white guys was a perfect example(admittedly the movie bore little relation at all to the real story).

[Inner Stickler]

Originally Posted by Justin_Bailey

The characters were both originally white. How does that not fit your hypothetical?

Because the hypothetical is not name white comic book characters who are played by minorities in a movie.

It's name characters who were originally and specifically set out by the artistic staff to be white and then in the middle of the casting process, they find a minority actor who's too good to pass up. Capiche?

[Alan Smithee]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

Because the hypothetical is not name white comic book characters who are played by minorities in a movie.

It's name characters who were originally and specifically set out by the artistic staff to be white and then in the middle of the casting process, they find a minority actor who's too good to pass up. Capiche?

That's a ridiculously narrow standard. No producer or casting director is ever going to say "We wanted a white person for this role." Ever. The closest you will get is "This character wasn't originally conceived as being a minority, but we decided we wanted what this actor brought to the role." You've been given several examples of that, but you aren't happy because you don't have a quote of the exact words you want. Rysler gave you the example of Tootie inThe Facts of Life, which is pretty clear cut: they wouldn't have had a sea of white actresses show up for the role if they hadn't expected to cast a white girl, but they went with Kim Fields. Of course, it's both possible and likely that Tootie hadn't been "specifically set out by the artistic staff to be white," but that's an element of the racism involved--white is considered the default.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by silenus

Morena Baccarin is Brazilian.

So?

Brazil has plenty of people who consider themselves "white", though they'd say "blanco" or, in her case "blanca".

Morena Baccarin is almost certainly one of them.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

Because the hypothetical is not name white comic book characters who are played by minorities in a movie.

It's name characters who were originally and specifically set out by the artistic staff to be white and then in the middle of the casting process, they find a minority actor who's too good to pass up. Capiche?

You mean like Morgan Freeman in Unforgiven and The Shawshank Redemption? As Eastwood said, Freeman is "the world's greatest actor" and he clearly likes putting him movies.

Look, as a rule, I think you're basically correct they Hollywood should do more race blind casting but to pretend you never have non-white actors chosen for parts that were originally conceived of as being white is ridiculous.

[Elendil's Heir]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

...As for Thor. Come back and talk to me when Thor himself in Thor is cast by a non-white, not just most of the bad guys. Then maybe I'll acknowledge some color-blindness! ....

One of Thor's posse was played a Japanese samurai-looking dude, wasn't he?

[Raguleader]

Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir

One of Thor's posse was played a Japanese samurai-looking dude, wasn't he?

I'm still trying to figure out which bad guy in that movie wasn't white. Since there's only one bad guy in the movie, I can only conclude that Tom Hiddleston is in fact black and I need to get a better TV set.

EDIT: And yeah, Morgan Freeman in The Shawshank redemption playing Red, so named because he's Irish.

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by Sam Stone

The 'black' people on the show trend more towards mulatto.

I wouldn't call Chiwetel Ejiofor or Richard Brooks "mulatto" in the slightest.

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by Raguleader

I'm still trying to figure out which bad guy in that movie wasn't white.

The blue ones? I know, that's smurfist...

[Inner Stickler]

Originally Posted by Alan Smithee

That's a ridiculously narrow standard.

Come back when you've read the whole conversation. (Although it hasn't helped Ephemera or Justin Bailey.)

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

Come back when you've read the whole conversation. (Although it hasn't helped Ephemera or Justin Bailey.)

Because what you're asking for is next to impossible. Holding up characters who were conceived as white, but played by minority actors on film, is the best any of us can do.

[Quercus]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

I agree, and it did bother me a lot. I never thought Firefly was the end-all be-all of shows, though I do like it OK. But the almost all-white cast really bothered me.

Originally Posted by Lemur866

Ron Glass? Gina Torres?

If we include the movie, then I can add, Chiwetel Ejiofor?

By my count the core cast of the series was about 77% white. (Though I guess the rest of the universe was generally pretty palefaced)

[Alan Smithee]

Originally Posted by Justin_Bailey

Because what you're asking for is next to impossible. Holding up characters who were conceived as white, but played by minority actors on film, is the best any of us can do.

Which means he wins! Woo hoo! Inner Stickler! Inner Stickler! In your face, Straight Dope Message Board!

[grude]

Originally Posted by Quercus

If we include the movie, then I can add, Chiwetel Ejiofor?

By my count the core cast of the series was about 77% white. (Though I guess the rest of the universe was generally pretty palefaced)

The complaint was not that the cast lacks racial diversity, the complaint was how Chinese language and culture has managed to permeate the reality shown with not one visible person of Chinese descent. It really makes no sense, and made me wonder if it was plot relevant but it appears not. Joss had an interesting concept but didn't care enough about it to expand on it, so while it adds flavor to the show it does seem inexplicable.

Wait it is canon that the capital planet is called Sihnon

[Peremensoe]

Originally Posted by grude

The complaint was not that the cast lacks racial diversity, the complaint was how Chinese language and culture has managed to permeate the reality shown with not one visible person of Chinese descent. It really makes no sense, and made me wonder if it was plot relevant but it appears not. Joss had an interesting concept but didn't care enough about it to expand on it, so while it adds flavor to the show it does seem inexplicable.

That is a complaint about casting.

The most sensible in-universe interpretation of the facts we're given leads to the conclusion that the people you see on screen in the show are the characters of Chinese descent.

If they don't look Chinese, that's a production decision. If it had been important to illustrate that aspect of the back story, they could have searched high and low for actors of more visibly Chinese ancestry. Or they could have used makeup to make their American actors look more Chinese. Or they could have not worried about it, since ethnicity never seems to be a plot point or relevant to the characters themselves anyway. Obviously they decided that other characteristics of their actors--their acting, their availability, their price--were more important for the production.

[Alan Smithee]

Originally Posted by grude

Joss had an interesting concept but didn't care enough about it to expand on it, so while it adds flavor to the show it does seem inexplicable.

Or, as I mentioned, he may not have had the clout to make the network paying for the show care enough about it.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Oh, and lastly - I know Inara is not really a prostitute.

Sure, she is. We're just negotiating the rice.

[Alan Smithee]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Sure, she is. We're just negotiating the rice.

Ouch.

[grude]

Originally Posted by Peremensoe

The most sensible in-universe interpretation of the facts we're given leads to the conclusion that the people you see on screen in the show are the characters of Chinese descent.

If they don't look Chinese, that's a production decision. If it had been important to illustrate that aspect of the back story, they could have searched high and low for actors of more visibly Chinese ancestry. Or they could have used makeup to make their American actors look more Chinese. Or they could have not worried about it, since ethnicity never seems to be a plot point or relevant to the characters themselves anyway. Obviously they decided that other characteristics of their actors--their acting, their availability, their price--were more important for the production.

Well they could at least have had a few bit players or extras walking around in spaceports and cities, I mean what about the film Blade Runner? How did they manage to find extras?

I just read something where Joss said it was not his intention to make a space western really, but that budget constraints led to every other planet being rural California shooting locations. He said they considered doing stuff to make it look more exotic but they had neither the time or money to bother. I'm guessing you are right.

[sachertorte]

Originally Posted by Peremensoe

Or they could have used makeup to make their American actors look more Chinese.

I assume you mean caucasian actors. Probably not a good idea.

[Grestarian]

Originally Posted by Quercus

If we include the movie, then I can add, Chiwetel Ejiofor?

Definitely a stand-out non-white actor/character! Great looks, great screen presence, great charisma, a very educated and self-aware character....quite awesome.

And, if we included the movie (why else include Serenity in the title?) then I seem to (vaguely) recall that River's teacher and several of her classmates in the introductory dream sequence were Asiatic descendants.

Originally Posted by Grude

Well they could at least have had a few bit players or extras walking around in spaceports and cities, I mean what about the film Blade Runner? How did they manage to find extras?

With a Ridley Scott movie budget and a Phillip Jose Farmer script.
See also Mr. Smithee's comment way up above....

---G!