Are Transsexuals Mentally Ill?

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by stevenova

Do you really think that someone who has a penis can be female? . . .

Penis = male.

Leaving out transsexedness entirely, this view ignores ambiguous genitalia. It is entirely possible for a human to be XX, and be born with a penis.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by stevenova

Do you really think that someone who has a penis can be female?

These "laws" are trying to force other people to live in the sick mind of people who refuse to accept what they are.

The problem is that there is no cure for transexuality, and no really viable treatment for it that you will accept.

I said it some pages back, but when we can't cure someone then we should make an effort to alleviate their suffering. Right now, the only thing we can offer these people is sexual reassignment treatment. Allowing them to transition (whether you consider it a farce or not) does seem to improve their quality of life. If it eases the pain of a fellow human being for whom medical science has nothing else to offer I am completely at peace with changing the pronouns I use to refer to a particular person.

[Una Persson]

Originally Posted by stevenova

Do you really think that someone who has a penis can be female?

So by your own argument, a transsexual woman who has SRS is no longer male. You're sort of all over the map here.

These "laws" are trying to force other people to live in the sick mind of people who refuse to accept what they are.

Why is "laws" in quotes?

I mean doesn't it seem like a MOTHER F'ING huge clue that if you have a dick that you are male?

Please look up "gender" and "sex" in the dictionary, and observe why they are different.

What other scenario besides circumcision to people cut off perfectly working body parts,

People have breast reduction surgery, and both sexes have nose jobs, and a variety of other cosmetic surgical procedures.

then take drugs like hormones, which are proven to cause cancer and heart disease, to make them seem like the sex they weren't born as?

I'll wager you don't know at all, with respect to transsexuals, the relative risk of cancer and heart disease compared to the relative risk of not taking hormones. Please make sure you do at least as much due diligence as I showed on the first page.

I thought if these people really believe they are the other sex, why do they do the hormones and sex change operations (and no doubt, liberals will make taxpayers fund these surgeries in the future)???? To fool other people?

I was just wondering when you said earlier, that you feel bad for transsexuals...you were being ironic, right?

If they are hermaphrodites, that's a completely different story and can choose to be one or the other and have surgeries.

I'm sure intersex persons everywhere are relieved at your magnanimous gesture.

But in the case of just transgenders, it's criminal for doctors to do what they do. Unethetical, criminal to remove body parts that work fine, or to give drugs that have such consequences for a non medically necessary reason.

It is medically necessary. Perhaps you haven't read the thread.

[stevenova]

Originally Posted by Broomstick

The problem is that there is no cure for transexuality, and no really viable treatment for it that you will accept.

I said it some pages back, but when we can't cure someone then we should make an effort to alleviate their suffering. Right now, the only thing we can offer these people is sexual reassignment treatment. Allowing them to transition (whether you consider it a farce or not) does seem to improve their quality of life. If it eases the pain of a fellow human being for whom medical science has nothing else to offer I am completely at peace with changing the pronouns I use to refer to a particular person.

They can't cure lots of things. Should they just give bulemics laxatives in the cases where they can't do anything?

You might be fine with changing pronouns, but what happens when other people are FORCED to do that or face lawsuits and possible hate crimes charges for not denying reality?

Why should other people be forced to accept someone else's severe mental problems and play along?

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by stevenova

They can't cure lots of things. Should they just give bulemics laxatives in the cases where they can't do anything?

How is GID remotely like bulimia?

You might be fine with changing pronouns, but what happens when other people are FORCED to do that or face lawsuits and possible hate crimes charges for not denying reality?

Who is denying reality? Perhaps others ( who frankly seem to have done a lot more research on the subject than you) disagree on what the reality is. But nobody is "denying reality".

Why should other people be forced to accept someone else's severe mental problems and play along?

You hate transsexuals. We get it.

[Una Persson]

Originally Posted by stevenova

Why should other people be forced to accept someone else's severe mental problems and play along?

Naw...too easy.

[stevenova]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

How is GID remotely like bulimia?



Who is denying reality? Perhaps others ( who frankly seem to have done a lot more research on the subject than you) disagree on what the reality is. But nobody is "denying reality".



You hate transsexuals. We get it.

They are both body dismorphic type disorders. Bulemics think they are heavier than they actually are. Transgenders think they are a different sex than they actually are.

Calling someone with a penis a "her" is denying reality.

I hate trannsexuals? Proof of this? Do I hate bulemics too because I think they should get mental help instead of being enabled?

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by stevenova

They can't cure lots of things. Should they just give bulemics laxatives in the cases where they can't do anything?

There actually are treatments for bulemia where it puts the problem into what is, essentially, remission. The person remains at risk for eating disorders in the future, but can learn to eat normally again.

Transsexuality is not like that.

You might be fine with changing pronouns, but what happens when other people are FORCED to do that or face lawsuits and possible hate crimes charges for not denying reality?

Well, gee, by that reasoning we shouldn't be able to outlaw ANY form of discrimination.

Why should other people be forced to accept someone else's severe mental problems and play along?

Because it is the kindest thing we can currently do to alleviate their suffering? Because forcing them to conform to your perception of reality leads to things like a 30% suicide rate? Does the phrase "needles cruelty" need to be defined for you?

[Ruby Slippers]

Originally Posted by stevenova

Calling someone with a penis a "her" is denying reality.

I'm just curious about one point here -- if you see a person who is dressed as a woman and in most respects looks like a woman, how do you know whether this person does or does not have a penis?

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by penumbrage

Just like homosexuals, there are undoubtedly transsexuals whose root causes are psychological issues generated due to sexual abuse or other severe mental traumas, for whom years or decades of appropriate therapy may (or may not) resolve their gender dysphoria.

You're (perhaps unintentionally) repeating Family Research Council talking points. Check this refutation out.

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by stevenova

I hate trannsexuals? Proof of this?

Your posts are my cite.

[grude]

What laws are being talked about exactly?

And for those that think reassignment surgery is wrong or should not be allowed, why do you care exactly? I mean how does it effect you?

[stevenova]

Originally Posted by grude

What laws are being talked about exactly?

And for those that think reassignment surgery is wrong or should not be allowed, why do you care exactly? I mean how does it effect you?

How does an bulemic making herself vomit affect me? Yet we still don't want to enable that, do we?

Lots of people want circumcision banned, but how does it really affect them? how does someone else circumcizing their son affect you?

People are having healthy body parts removed because they refuse to accept what they were born as.


Would you have no objections to people getting healthy limbs amputed ? If they feel like doing it, they should be allowed to, and doctors should do it? Funny, the same people who seem to support these unecessary surgeries are the same people who love running every aspect of other people's lives, like smoking, how big of a soda they can buy, etc...

And in the future, it WILL affect other people very directly beyond the deteroriation of medical ethics. THe cost will be on the taxpayers in a more socialized system. I'm going to have to pay for someone's needless surgery, their needless hormones.


The laws I'm referring to are the anti "discrimination" laws that protect trans people. So if you own property, have a public bathroom, you can have the hell sued out of you if you refuse to let someone with a penis use the woman's bathroom.

[stevenova]

Originally Posted by Ruby Slippers

I'm just curious about one point here -- if you see a person who is dressed as a woman and in most respects looks like a woman, how do you know whether this person does or does not have a penis?

Given most M to F trans people look and sound like men in wigs, it's not very hard to tell. The Adam's apple is a dead giveaway.

SO they can have surgery to reduce the adam's apple? Great, more unecessary elective surgery to remove more healthy body parts.

Nothing mentally defective about that at all

[ukdave]

Originally Posted by stevenova

Lots of people want circumcision banned, but how does it really affect them? how does someone else circumcizing their son affect you?

Someone circumcizing their son doesn't affect me/us, but it is a grievous and illogical alteration of "their" child's body and that concerns many of us.

[Una Persson]

Originally Posted by stevenova

I hate trannsexuals?

Could you be more obvious? It drips from every post you've made, and is demonstrable by the fact you refuse to address any refutation of your canned talking points.

Funny, the same people who seem to support these unecessary surgeries are the same people who love running every aspect of other people's lives, like smoking, how big of a soda they can buy, etc...

How very strange.

And in the future, it WILL affect other people very directly beyond the deteroriation of medical ethics. THe cost will be on the taxpayers in a more socialized system. I'm going to have to pay for someone's needless surgery, their needless hormones.

You're either just not getting it or on a crusade. It's already been demonstrated that regardless of the root cause, the best and most effective way to relieve the suffering of transsexuals is normally counseling, hormones, and SRS. Thus by definition they're not "needless." Since you categorically refuse to address that, and have ducked and weaved around telling us what is the more effective treatment in your World Order, it's clear that you're just someone who came here to spread their screed of hate. I can guess from where.

You also don't seem in the least bit upset about the fact that insurance and government-funded health care already cover the results of unnecessary behaviors such as failure to exercise, smoking, overeating, drug abuse, and risky athletic behavior. But you have this serious woody about gender dysphoria, which I think most would agree is a more serious and less in-control situation than most, if not all, of the aforementioned.

Huh.

The laws I'm referring to are the anti "discrimination" laws that protect trans people. So if you own property, have a public bathroom, you can have the hell sued out of you if you refuse to let someone with a penis use the woman's bathroom.

Good. To quote John McLaughlin, "ISSUE 2! ..."

And what the holy fuck do you think happens in women's toilets? There aren't any urinals in there; no prizes for guessing why not...women sit...in...wait for it...stalls. With doors and everything! Where no one can see anything outside of ankles. And here's the funny thing about us women, when we're done with our business and we leave the stall, we already have our clothing back on! I reckon this must be very different than the gents' toilets you frequent, where men apparently cavort and caper around with their tighty-whiteys about their ankles and their penises at half-mast (or full; I don't judge), but guess what, that doesn't happen in women's toilets.

So how do these scandalized phallophobic women you put on airs that you're protecting know who does and doesn't have a penis?

Given most M to F trans people look and sound like men in wigs, it's not very hard to tell. The Adam's apple is a dead giveaway.

I'll wager you've never met a transsexual outside of net porn. I also find it odd you're fixated exclusively on transwomen in your inflammatory posts. You seem completely ignorant of or are deliberately excluding the fact that transmen also have surgery to "remove perfectly working body parts."

SO they can have surgery to reduce the adam's apple? Great, more unecessary elective surgery to remove more healthy body parts.

You refused to address the point earlier about other cosmetic surgery.

You seem to be a person who is very fixated on genitalia. I don't think anyone here has the time nor the professional qualifications to figure out why, nor does anyone here know if they should be waving and exclaiming "hi, nonnies!" at this point. Perhaps things will develop as we go on.

[stevenova]

Originally Posted by ukdave

Someone circumcizing their son doesn't affect me/us, but it is a grievous and illogical alteration of "their" child's body and that concerns many of us.

Like gender reassignment surgery? except far far less extreme?

[stevenova]

Do I have to do the whole hormones and dressing like a woman thing to be considered transgender, or can I just say I'm transgender, and go about business as usual? There are plenty of non transgender women who look manly and dress like men, but they are women and are called women. Does one have to play the role? Or can I force people to accept I'm a woman, but still go about my business like I always have? So to use a woman's bathroom as a transperson, do I have to dress in a dress? If so, why are women who wear pants allowed in a woman's bathroom?

How much do you have to do to be transgendered?

[ukdave]

Originally Posted by stevenova

Like gender reassignment surgery? except far far less extreme?

I'm sorry; I didn't make myself clear. The decision should be the individual's.

Each time one of us is born we are a little different from the rest. This use to be necessary for our development as a species.

If the difference was significant and "undesirable", we were naturally programmed to avoid the individual so they didn't have the opportunity to affect the gene pool. The difference may have been a physical defect or behaviour unacceptable to the rest of the community.

This safeguard has been frustrated, however as we have become "civilized" and more compassionate towards those we see as less fortunate than or different to us.

The important thing is, not that they conform to our idea of normal, but that they should be able to enjoy their lives as they see fit.

The decisions they make will only affect them and they should be free to make them.

I'm puzzled by your name. Is it Steve Nova or Steven Ova? The latter would make things very intriguing...

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by stevenova

Like gender reassignment surgery? except far far less extreme?

Are you differentiating between that which is with that person's consent, and that which is without?

[Broomstick]

The ignorance, it burns.

stevenova, you obviously have confused tranvestitism with transsexualism (look them up), don't know the difference between gender and social norms regarding clothing, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I'm not sure I care to take the time to chip away at your mountain of ignorance. You are operating from a position of unwarranted assumptions and show no signs of desiring to actually learn something.

And, since you seem to be a man, please STFU about who is and isn't allowed to use to women's public bathrooms as you have no personal interest in the matter and thus should not be allowed to dictate the rules. Although I agree you are also woefully ignorant about the toilet activities which, not too surprisingly, concern pissing and shitting rather than inspecting other peoples' genitals (though I hear that occasionally goes on in certain men's toilets, which may be where you're getting this from. I suggest you avoid airport and rest stop toilets containing Congressmen and you'll be OK).

I mean, heavens, I have been in close promixity to a human penis before, I didn't faint or anything. For Og's sake, next you'll be suggesting that my spouse and I use separate toilets at home, lest we get cross-gender cooties or something.

[stevenova]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

Are you differentiating between that which is with that person's consent, and that which is without?

So no doubt you are opposed to mandatory vaccinations, right?

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by stevenova

So no doubt you are opposed to mandatory vaccinations, right?

Different topic entirely-nice try, though. Comparing giving a vaccination to an unconcenting child to an adult seeking out gender reassignment surgery is akin to comparing apples and an orange-coloured F-16.

edited to add: Just so's you know, these arguments you are parroting have been done to death here. We've been to those websites and read the literature, so if your goal here is to trip us up with wordgames just stop wasting your time-it ain't gonna work.

[grude]

What does everyone think about hormone therapy starting before puberty?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=90273278

Robert and Danielle soon came to find out about a new, highly controversial, treatment for preteen kids with gender identity issues. The treatment allows kids to postpone puberty and avoid developing the physical attributes of the sex they were born with.

The treatment has been offered in the United States only for around four years. Essentially, kids who meet the criteria for gender identity disorder are given monthly injections of a medication that blocks their bodies from releasing sex hormones. This means that while the children continue to grow taller, for the three or four years they are on the medication, they are kept from maturing sexually.

Norman Spack, an endocrinologist at Children's Hospital in Boston, was one of the earliest practitioners of this treatment in the United States. He explains that doctors have actually been able to block sex hormones for decades — the technique has been used to treat everything from prostate cancer to fibroids — but it was only about 10 years ago that a medical group in the Netherlands decided to use it on kids like Armand.

"They had the idea. ... They decided to see what would happen if they took such a child that was in such distress over their body, [and stopped their body from] taking the form that they feared," he says.

To put off puberty, children –- usually between 10 and 13 — are injected with hormone blockers once a month. Spack explains that the blockers only affect the gonads, the organs responsible for turning boys into men and girls into women.

"If you can block the gonads, that is the ovary [in women] or the testis [in men], from making its sex steroids, that being estrogen or testosterone, then you can literally prevent ... almost all the physical differences between the genders," Spack explains.

Without testosterone, boys will not grow facial or body hair. Their voices will not deepen. There will be no Adams apple, and height growth will slow. Without estrogen, girls will not develop breasts, fat at the hip, or menstrual periods. And since most growth happens before puberty, if you block estrogen — and therefore puberty — girls will grow taller, closer to a typical male height.

I have to admit this makes me uneasy, I could easily see some kid permanently changed because of Munchausen by proxy etc. I imagine there are plenty of children who changed their mind later on too about gender identity.

[DocCathode]

I wouldn't use the term hormone therapy. That generally describes hormone replacement therapy. I'd call this hormone blocking. I think care should be used before it is started. However, it does no lasting harm. If the patient decides 'golly gee! I was wrong about having GID' then you take them off the blockers and they undergo puberty.

[Una Persson]

Originally Posted by grude

What does everyone think about hormone therapy starting before puberty?

...

I have to admit this makes me uneasy, I could easily see some kid permanently changed because of Munchausen by proxy etc. I imagine there are plenty of children who changed their mind later on too about gender identity.

It's a controversial subject even among transsexuals and the transgendered. On the one hand, adequately recognizing gender dysphoria before puberty starts can seriously improve the quality of life of a trans youth, often setting them up for being able to fully transition and "pass" seamlessly. Every result I've seen has been phenomenal.

On the other hand, there are legitimate concerns about being able to adequately diagnose serious and real gender dysphoria in youth. I believe that the chance of regrets and reversals is significantly higher than for adult transsexuals, but it has not been an area of focus for me (yet).

[John W. Kennedy]

The last I heard, Munchhausen By Proxy isn’t really a danger here, because the gatekeeping is quite strict.

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by stevenova

THe cost will be on the taxpayers in a more socialized system.

Assuming you live in the US, every other country has far lower per capita costs for medicine anyway (the cost in taxation plus the cost of full coverage with no copay on Bupa amounts to less than the per capita cost in the US). You could do with a more socialist attitude to medicine.

[stevenova]

Now taxpayers get to pay for it

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...nmate#comments

[Irishman]

Hurray for taxes?

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by stevenova

Now taxpayers get to pay for it

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...nmate#comments

Thanx for the newsclipping service.

Care to converse?

[stevenova]

Originally Posted by gamerunknown

Assuming you live in the US, every other country has far lower per capita costs for medicine anyway (the cost in taxation plus the cost of full coverage with no copay on Bupa amounts to less than the per capita cost in the US). You could do with a more socialist attitude to medicine.

You'd need to reform tort law for that to have any chance here, and how much money will it save people to have medically unecessary surgeries that are incredibly expensive like sex change operations?

[Broomstick]

How much do repeated hospitalizations from repeated suicide attempts and self-harm episodes cost, Stevenova? Because for about 1/3 to 1/2 (or maybe more) of these people that's the alternative, not "they don't need care at all". Have you considered that perhaps a treatment, however objectionable you might find it, that puts a stop to suicide/self harm might, in the long run, actually be cheaper?

I had a friend once who was a "cutter". She regularly racked up six-digit hospital bills from her propensity to not only cut herself and swallow razor blades, but also to create third degree burns, all of it paid by taxpayers over the course of about 15 years where this was an almost annual circus (do the math). Yes, a seriously messed up individual, definitely mentally ill, but the answer wasn't to deny her treatment but to try different things until something was found that WORKED. I'm happy to say that something was, eventually, found and she's hasn't been a medical patient for about a quarter century, yay for psychiatry when it actually works. She wasn't a transsexual, but maybe she's one of the reasons I put "relieve suffering" ahead of "make me comfortable with this".

When someone is unhappy enough - regardless of cause - they are actively hurting themselves to that point any discomfort I might feel at an effective course of treatment is nothing compared to alleviating the abyss of suffering that person is living in. I do understand that if you have never confronted such a thing in real life you might not understand it - and if you haven't, I sincerely wish you don't have to confront the unvarnished reality of that sort of situation. I do, however, wish that more people would have empathy for the suffering rather than condemnation.

[stevenova]

Originally Posted by Broomstick

How much do repeated hospitalizations from repeated suicide attempts and self-harm episodes cost, Stevenova? Because for about 1/3 to 1/2 (or maybe more) of these people that's the alternative, not "they don't need care at all". Have you considered that perhaps a treatment, however objectionable you might find it, that puts a stop to suicide/self harm might, in the long run, actually be cheaper?

I had a friend once who was a "cutter". She regularly racked up six-digit hospital bills from her propensity to not only cut herself and swallow razor blades, but also to create third degree burns, all of it paid by taxpayers over the course of about 15 years where this was an almost annual circus (do the math). Yes, a seriously messed up individual, definitely mentally ill, but the answer wasn't to deny her treatment but to try different things until something was found that WORKED. I'm happy to say that something was, eventually, found and she's hasn't been a medical patient for about a quarter century, yay for psychiatry when it actually works. She wasn't a transsexual, but maybe she's one of the reasons I put "relieve suffering" ahead of "make me comfortable with this".

When someone is unhappy enough - regardless of cause - they are actively hurting themselves to that point any discomfort I might feel at an effective course of treatment is nothing compared to alleviating the abyss of suffering that person is living in. I do understand that if you have never confronted such a thing in real life you might not understand it - and if you haven't, I sincerely wish you don't have to confront the unvarnished reality of that sort of situation. I do, however, wish that more people would have empathy for the suffering rather than condemnation.

A person who cuts themself with a blade is mentally ill, but a person who wants to cut off their genitalia, perfectly fine, working, healthy genitalia is not mentally ill?

If a doctor gave cutting techniques to a cutter, to minimize scarring, the doctor would be enabling the patient just like doctors do with transgendered folks.

[Una Persson]

Originally Posted by stevenova

A person who cuts themself with a blade is mentally ill, but a person who wants to cut off their genitalia, perfectly fine, working, healthy genitalia is not mentally ill?

If a doctor gave cutting techniques to a cutter, to minimize scarring, the doctor would be enabling the patient just like doctors do with transgendered folks.

Start answering the questions people have been putting to you, stop setting up false dilemmas, learn the foundations of logic, and at least attempt to back up your bombastic assertions. You can start back on Page 3 and work your way forward at your own pace.

[John W. Kennedy]

Originally Posted by stevenova

A person who cuts themself with a blade is mentally ill, but a person who wants to cut off their genitalia, perfectly fine, working, healthy genitalia is not mentally ill?

If a doctor gave cutting techniques to a cutter, to minimize scarring, the doctor would be enabling the patient just like doctors do with transgendered folks.

Do you really think it’s all about what’s between the legs? Are you so devoid of any sexual identity of your own that you have to look at yourself nude in a mirror every morning before you remember whether you’re more comfortable in a skirt or in pants? Do you need to reach down and give yourself a feel before you ask a woman out, to remind you of whether you actually want to date her or her brother? If that’s what life is like for you, it must be really frustrating. Me, I know what I am: I’m a straight male with the usual male plumbing, and I gotta say it’s convenient to have everything match. But I’d rather have a mixed-up self-image than no self-image at all.

[Learjeff]

Originally Posted by John W. Kennedy

Do you really think it’s all about what’s between the legs? Are you so devoid of any sexual identity of your own that you have to look at yourself nude in a mirror every morning before you remember whether you’re more comfortable in a skirt or in pants? Do you need to reach down and give yourself a feel before you ask a woman out, to remind you of whether you actually want to date her or her brother? If that’s what life is like for you, it must be really frustrating. Me, I know what I am: I’m a straight male with the usual male plumbing, and I gotta say it’s convenient to have everything match. But I’d rather have a mixed-up self-image than no self-image at all.

Good one!

[Irishman]

Just ran across this interesting story about a study on monkeys about sex and toy choice.

The researchers gave toy options to monkeys. Male monkeys picked trucks and balls, female monkeys picked dolls. These are monkeys, not human children, so human social influences are not a factor. There is a sex-related factor in toy type preferences.

How does it relate to this topic of transgender people? The results of the above studies indicates that there are differences in the two brain biochemistries between the sexes. If the brain biochemistries can show a difference based upon hormones, and hormones can get out of synch between the genetalia and the brain, then brain biochemistries can get out of synch with the genetalia. Ergo, evidence that supports that gender is more than your gonads.

[John W. Kennedy]

Originally Posted by Irishman

Just ran across this interesting story about a study on monkeys about sex and toy choice.

The researchers gave toy options to monkeys. Male monkeys picked trucks and balls, female monkeys picked dolls. These are monkeys, not human children, so human social influences are not a factor. There is a sex-related factor in toy type preferences.

How does it relate to this topic of transgender people? The results of the above studies indicates that there are differences in the two brain biochemistries between the sexes. If the brain biochemistries can show a difference based upon hormones, and hormones can get out of synch between the genetalia and the brain, then brain biochemistries can get out of synch with the genetalia. Ergo, evidence that supports that gender is more than your gonads.

Yeah, the toy test has been frustrating the hell out of certain types of doctrinaire feminist for nearly a century now. I hadn’t heard that it had been extended to monkeys, though.

[gamerunknown]

If anyone has access to the study ("Sex differences in response to children's toys in nonhuman primates" was the 2002 study), did the researchers account for demand characteristics? For monkeys I imagine it would take the form of food rewards for appropriately sex differentiated play, or even something subtle like smiling.

[Una Persson]

Originally Posted by gamerunknown

If anyone has access to the study ("Sex differences in response to children's toys in nonhuman primates" was the 2002 study), did the researchers account for demand characteristics? For monkeys I imagine it would take the form of food rewards for appropriately sex differentiated play, or even something subtle like smiling.

I downloaded it. The Procedures section says:

Three groups of animals were tested in the autumn and four the following spring. Each group received two or three toy preference trials separated by intervals of 1 week. (For 32 animals, torrential rains prevented the third trial.) The first trial was used to accustom the animals to the presence of the experimenter and the procedure (introductory trial). Data were collected on the subsequent trial or trials (test trials). For each trial, six toys were placed in the group cage, one at a time, in a random order. Each toy remained in the enclosure for 5 min. The six toys were a ball, a police car, a soft doll, a cooking pot, a picture book and a stuffed dog. These toys were categorized as ‘‘masculine’’ toys, ‘‘feminine’’ toys, or ‘‘neutral’’ toys on the basis of evidence that boys are more interested than girls in balls and cars (the ‘‘masculine’’ toy set), girls are more interested than boys in dolls and pots (the ‘‘feminine’’ toy set), and boys and girls are approximately equally interested in books and stuffed animals (the ‘‘neutral’’ toy set) (Berenbaum & Hines, 1992; Connor & Serbin, 1977; Maccoby & Jacklin, 1974). The six toys were selected because children in a broad age range categorize them as ‘‘masculine,’’ ‘‘feminine,’’ or ‘‘neutral’’ and, for those toys categorized as ‘‘masculine’’ or ‘‘feminine,’’ the sex difference in toy preferences is reliable and relatively large in children.

During test trials, animals were videotaped from outside the enclosure. An observer provided a concurrent narrative of the animals’ identifying markings and behaviors to aid thescoring of the videotapes by independent raters. Reliability between raters was good (Cohen’s Kappa = .84, average of 15 animals). Videotapes were coded for the duration of each of the two behavioral responses (contact and approach) to each of the toys. Contact was coded when an animal (or animals) approached a toy and made physical contact with it. Approach was coded only when an animal moved within 2 m of a toy without contacting it physically—but not coded in instances when the toy was moved towards an animal. For example, if one animal picked up the toy and moved near a second animal, a contact was coded for the first animal but an approach was not coded for the second animal. Each animal received two scores (contact and approach), ranging from 0 to 300 s, for each toy on each trial.

[Powers]

Originally Posted by stevenova

Do you really think that someone who has a penis can be female?

A person with a penis is (for the sake of argument) indeed physically male. But that person (assuming an adult) may or may not be a man; that person may be a woman. Gender (man vs woman) is a mental construct, not a physical one (i.e., sex: male vs female).

How many times do we have to repeat this simple concept?


Powers &8^]

[Ají de Gallina]

Originally Posted by Powers

A person with a penis is (for the sake of argument) indeed physically male. But that person (assuming an adult) may or may not be a man; that person may be a woman. Gender (man vs woman) is a mental construct, not a physical one (i.e., sex: male vs female).

How many times do we have to repeat this simple concept?


Powers &8^]

As many times as you want, but it doesn't make it true. Because even if one belived the whole gender/sex dichotomy, we still get the same range
man----woman and that is only rooted in biology.

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by Una Persson

I downloaded it.

Thanks for the information, sounds like a solid method. Perhaps they could have put their characterisations on a slightly firmer ground by operationalising their gender scale, perhaps by asking a sample whether certain toys were masculine, feminine or neutral and using whichever toys were rated highest in each category.

[SarahDot]

I am a transsexual woman, and I find this thread horribly depressing. Most people haven't met a transsexual person, and that puts us at a severe disadvantage when it comes to acceptance and understanding. There aren't even any real transsexuals on television that aren't the son of Cher. I'm a comedian, and with a lot of luck, I may be able to change that a bit.

I consider transsexuality a birth defect. My mind is wired to be female. My body, to be male. The problem is that my mind is everything that makes me who I am--my soul if you will. My body is just the fleshy bit that keeps my mind alive. So if there is something to be changed, it is the body.

Don't give me some crap about why can't people want to be sharks. Humans are born with instincts that control how they act and who they emulate. My instincts demand that I am female. I really have no choice in the matter. If I did, I would probably choose the road without the horrible internal and external strife. In fact, I tried to for 30 years. Didn't stick.

Unfortunately, we don't get the same sympathy as other people with birth defects. Surely, if God meant me to be male by giving me a penis, he also meant Joaquin Phoenix to have a cleft palate, and the surgery to correct it was an abomination unto the Lord.

I know I won't change anyone's mind about people like me here. People who think they are experts after getting a B- in Mrs. O'Mally's 8th grade biology class aren't the type of people that can be reasoned with. I just wanted to chime in, because I'm tired of people discussing transsexuals without talking to any actual transsexuals.

If anyone wants to see my work including a YouTube series I call Ask A Tranny, visit my website: http://www.sarahmaywalt.com

Sarah

[Una Persson]

Originally Posted by SarahDot

I am a transsexual woman, and I find this thread horribly depressing.

...

I know I won't change anyone's mind about people like me here. People who think they are experts after getting a B- in Mrs. O'Mally's 8th grade biology class aren't the type of people that can be reasoned with. I just wanted to chime in, because I'm tired of people discussing transsexuals without talking to any actual transsexuals.

With respect, you probably find it depressing because you didn't read all of it. You didn't see at all the lengthy and spirited defense put on by myself and others? You missed the times I and other spoke of knowing and even working to help counsel transsexuals?

Good grief, in the next week not only am I meeting a transwoman tomorrow to talk, but I'm playing pool with another and have a bowling date with a couple of others. I have talked, lived, played, and danced with more transwomen IRL than I can easily count, and 10 times that number online. Please don't throw out blanket statements that no one here has "talked" to any "actual transsexuals."

[Ají de Gallina]

Originally Posted by SarahDot

I am a transsexual woman, and I find this thread horribly depressing. Most people haven't met a transsexual person, and that puts us at a severe disadvantage when it comes to acceptance and understanding. There aren't even any real transsexuals on television that aren't the son of Cher. I'm a comedian, and with a lot of luck, I may be able to change that a bit.

I consider transsexuality a birth defect. My mind is wired to be female. My body, to be male. The problem is that my mind is everything that makes me who I am--my soul if you will. My body is just the fleshy bit that keeps my mind alive. So if there is something to be changed, it is the body.

Don't give me some crap about why can't people want to be sharks. Humans are born with instincts that control how they act and who they emulate. My instincts demand that I am female. I really have no choice in the matter. If I did, I would probably choose the road without the horrible internal and external strife. In fact, I tried to for 30 years. Didn't stick.

Unfortunately, we don't get the same sympathy as other people with birth defects. Surely, if God meant me to be male by giving me a penis, he also meant Joaquin Phoenix to have a cleft palate, and the surgery to correct it was an abomination unto the Lord.

I know I won't change anyone's mind about people like me here. People who think they are experts after getting a B- in Mrs. O'Mally's 8th grade biology class aren't the type of people that can be reasoned with. I just wanted to chime in, because I'm tired of people discussing transsexuals without talking to any actual transsexuals.

If anyone wants to see my work including a YouTube series I call Ask A Tranny, visit my website: http://www.sarahmaywalt.com

Sarah

It is interesting that you yourself call it a defect.
how can you decided if it's your body or your mind that is the "wrong" one?
How is transexuality different from other dismorphic defects (using your own term)?

[SarahDot]

Originally Posted by Una Persson

With respect, you probably find it depressing because you didn't read all of it. You didn't see at all the lengthy and spirited defense put on by myself and others? You missed the times I and other spoke of knowing and even working to help counsel transsexuals?

Good grief, in the next week not only am I meeting a transwoman tomorrow to talk, but I'm playing pool with another and have a bowling date with a couple of others. I have talked, lived, played, and danced with more transwomen IRL than I can easily count, and 10 times that number online. Please don't throw out blanket statements that no one here has "talked" to any "actual transsexuals."

It is depressing, because it has to be defended, and that people and a columnist on a site that is supposed to be about fighting ignorance choose to be so ignorant.

The people defending are great! I have no problem with you, Una. It is depressing that myself and others have to argue for my mere existence.

You are awesome, Una. Carry on! ^_^

[SarahDot]

Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina

It is interesting that you yourself call it a defect.
how can you decided if it's your body or your mind that is the "wrong" one?
How is transexuality different from other dismorphic defects (using your own term)?

The question isn't which one is "the wrong one." The question is how are we going to treat the defect while A) reaching the best outcome possible and B) preserving the human consiousness under it all.

What do you suggest? A lobotomy? Whatever happened in utero, my mind is me. I could call it a "defect" or a "problem" or a "disorder" or an "anomaly" or even "a point on a spectrum," but the issue is clear trans people have a great and unchangeable aversion to living as the gender suggested by their genitals.

The really sick thing is that life doesn't have to be hard for us. It is people like you who try to trap us and pin us to a gender, often times going so far as to have us committed, that cause our great pain. If people could *let us be ourselves* and treat us like *human beings*, a grand majority of our problems would be solved. We wouldn't feel the need to ask honestly and logically if suicide might be the better option.

The other dismorphic events? Anorexia/bulimia is based on fear for instance. Treat the fear, fix the patient. Duh. No trauma caused me to be trans. In fact, most of my life's trauma pushed me not to be. Didn't work, and I wish people would stop trying.

Sarah

[Una Persson]

Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina

It is interesting that you yourself call it a defect.
how can you decided if it's your body or your mind that is the "wrong" one?

The question is partially academic, but the answer is evidenced by the fact that both historically and today, attempting to change the "mind" of transsexuals has a lower success rate - in some cases, abominably lower - than the path of hormone treatment and potentially SRS. Treating the body has a high rate of success for improving the self-image, emotions, mental abilities, depression, and other negative outcomes from gender dysphoria. Psychoanalysis and drug approaches can work with some, but are not nearly as effective in general.

From a personal experience, for nearly all transwomen I have known, starting hormone therapy has an enormous impact on their happiness and self-satisfaction, all for a $10/month Wal-Mart prescription which has very few negative side effects (even the risk of DVT is recently being found to be diminishing with the greater use of sub-lingual and trans-dermal 17B-estradiol.) In some cases the effect has been profound and lasting, like an entirely new person stepped out who is suddenly happy and full of life. This is an improvement in mood and patient health which I have never witnessed among those who choose to try antidepressants and psychological help. Hard statistics on the efficacy of treatments were presented by myself on Page 1.