Thought about Anne Hathaway and The Dark Knight Rises

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by tdn

Nolan seems unconstrained by canon.

How do you figure? Most of the stories in the Dark Knight movies were based on famous Batman comics, for example.

[muldoonthief]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

"These are the pearls my mother wore every day of her life because my father gave them to her as a symbol of his love for her. Now I would like to give them to you as a symbol of my love for you."

You're entitled to your (incorrect) opinion, but I still bet Selina's gonna flip if she ever finds out the full story on them.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by muldoonthief

You're entitled to your (incorrect) opinion, but I still bet Selina's gonna flip if she ever finds out the full story on them.

Who said Mom wore them every day of her life, anyway? They were at the opera - makes sense to wear pearls at the opera. Who wears the same pearls every day of their lives?

[Munch]

Originally Posted by Sister Vigilante

Which were supposed to have broken and sent pearls flying everywhere when she died.

Yes, it's entirely unreasonable to assume that they had been collected up and restrung at a later date.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Who said Mom wore them every day of her life, anyway? They were at the opera - makes sense to wear pearls at the opera. Who wears the same pearls every day of their lives?

Well, Marge and Lisa Simpson....

[pricciar]

In the comics Catwoman's alter ego was Selina Kyle. She was a loner who often robbed the super rich. Occasionally, she would do work for crime bosses. In spite of her criminal actions she had a heart of gold and looked out for doing the right thing. The relationship with Batman was often written as a flirtatious one. In fact, there was more than one story where they ended up together in the end.

In the movie Anne Hathaway plays a character named Selina Kyle. She was a loner who robbed pearls and finger prints from super rich Bruce Wayne for a crime boss who wanted to take over Wayne Industries. She ended up with Bruce Wayne in the end. She was never called The Catwoman, and rode the batcycle. Therefore, she was Batgirl in the movie.

Wait... I think I got mixed up somewhere.

I loved DKR and I thought the portrayal of Selina Kyle was one of the best things about it. There are a few different versions of Catwoman that you could choose from the comic (I mean the same character written differently, not different characters playing Catwoman). The version they used in the movie, thief with a heart of gold, is my favorite. I thought Hathaway was very good in the role.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by Munch

Yes, it's entirely unreasonable to assume that they had been collected up and restrung at a later date.

Who was collecting them? Bruce, as a little kid? The cops? Pearls go everywhere when they fly!

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by pricciar

I loved DKR and I thought the portrayal of Selina Kyle was one of the best things about it. There are a few different versions of Catwoman that you could choose from the comic (I mean the same character written differently, not different characters playing Catwoman). The version they used in the movie, thief with a heart of gold, is my favorite. I thought Hathaway was very good in the role.

Yeah, but she didn't make any cat-puns! "The only true Catwoman is Julie Newmar, Lee Meriwether, or Eartha Kitt. ... And why doesn't Batman dance anymore? Remember the Bat-tusi?"

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by muldoonthief

You're entitled to your (incorrect) opinion, but I still bet Selina's gonna flip if she ever finds out the full story on them.

:: shrugs ::

Anyone who dates Bruce Wayne in the full knowledge that he is Batman is just asking for trouble. Heartache at a minimum, being kidnapped by Mr. Freeze as an average, being eaten alive by Killer Croc at a maximum.

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Who was collecting [the pearls]? Bruce, as a little kid? The cops? Pearls go everywhere when they fly!

Are you not feeling well? Obviously it was Alfred.

[muldoonthief]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Yeah, but she didn't make any cat-puns! "The only true Catwoman is Julie Newmar, Lee Meriwether, or Eartha Kitt. ... And why doesn't Batman dance anymore? Remember the Bat-tusi?"

Yes she did - "What's the matter - cat got your tongue?" after she pinned Daggett to the wall with her bootheel.

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

:: shrugs ::

Anyone who dates Bruce Wayne in the full knowledge that he is Batman is just asking for trouble. Heartache at a minimum, being kidnapped by Mr. Freeze as an average, being eaten alive by Killer Croc at a maximum.

I'm not arguing that point - I'm just saying it's still objectively creepy for Bruce to give her the pearls, no matter how he spins it in his own head.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by muldoonthief

Yes she did - "What's the matter - cat got your tongue?" after she pinned Daggett to the wall with her bootheel.

Ok, there's one. In a typical Adam West Batman you'd get half a dozen of them in 22 minutes!

I'm not arguing that point - I'm just saying it's still objectively creepy for Bruce to give her the pearls, no matter how he spins it in his own head.

I'm going to agree with Skald the Rhymer here. They were his mother's pearls and not just the ones she was wearing when she died. It's supposed to be a sign that he's letting go of his fixation on the murder of his parents and open to love again and whatnot. Plus she'd probably steal them anyway if he didn't give them to her.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

:: shrugs ::

Anyone who dates Bruce Wayne in the full knowledge that he is Batman is just asking for trouble. Heartache at a minimum, being kidnapped by Mr. Freeze as an average, being eaten alive by Killer Croc at a maximum.



Are you not feeling well? Obviously it was Alfred.

So....he ran down there afterwards, and ran areound the alley, picking up pearls.? Wow!

[muldoonthief]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I'm going to agree with Skald the Rhymer here. They were his mother's pearls and not just the ones she was wearing when she died. It's supposed to be a sign that he's letting go of his fixation on the murder of his parents and open to love again and whatnot. Plus she'd probably steal them anyway if he didn't give them to her.

"I've built dozens of bridges, but do they call me Ian the Bridge Builder?"

Your second point is well taken though.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by muldoonthief

Yes she did - "What's the matter - cat got your tongue?" after she pinned Daggett to the wall with her bootheel.



I'm not arguing that point - I'm just saying it's still objectively creepy for Bruce to give her the pearls, no matter how he spins it in his own head.

Well, of course it is. I just meant that if it's not this that creeps her out, it's going to be something else. Bruce is not a well man.

Originally Posted by Anaamika

So....he ran down there afterwards, and ran areound the alley, picking up pearls.? Wow!

We're talking about Alfred here: simultaneously the most superficially-well-adjusted person in the Batfamily, and the most irresponsible.

[Marley23]

Also his love interests keep dying.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Also his love interests keep dying.

Alfred's or Bruce's?

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Well, of course it is. I just meant that if it's not this that creeps her out, it's going to be something else. Bruce is not a well man.



We're talking about Alfred here: simultaneously the most superficially-well-adjusted person in the Batfamily, and the most irresponsible.

Well, what's he supposed to do? He did the only thing he really could do in DKR; he quit. This is why too much money is bad sometimes. A poor or middle class person could not hide inside their house for years and years easily; we have to go out to make a living and cannot just live off the interest of our money. Bruce can sit in his home for eight years. What's Alfred supposed to do, physically haul him out?

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Alfred's or Bruce's?

I meant Bruce's (Rachel and then Marion), unless there is a lot of subtext in the TDK movies that I missed.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Well, what's he supposed to do? He did the only thing he really could do in DKR; he quit. This is why too much money is bad sometimes. A poor or middle class person could not hide inside their house for years and years easily; we have to go out to make a living and cannot just live off the interest of our money. Bruce can sit in his home for eight years. What's Alfred supposed to do, physically haul him out?

I wasn't talking about anything that happened in DKR. I meant that he should have worked harder to get Bruce into therapy as a lad. Also (and outside the scope of the movies), I mean abetting the serial child endangerment.

Originally Posted by Marley23

I meant Bruce's (Rachel and then Marion), unless there is a lot of subtext in the TDK movies that I missed.

To be fair, Rachel was only Bruce's love interest in his mind. Her death had nothing to do with him or even Batman; it was because she was doing Harvey.

[Lobohan]

It seems obvious to me that the police collected the pearls during their investigation and returned them when they were done. I'm sure when two of the richest people in the city die they got the CSI treatment.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

I wasn't talking about anything that happened in DKR. I meant that he should have worked harder to get Bruce into therapy as a lad. Also (and outside the scope of the movies), I mean abetting the serial child endangerment.

Agreed...but honest question. In a universe where there are Jokers and the Scarecrow is a therapist*, is it even worth going to one?

*Wasn't he one? Or something like it?

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Agreed...but honest question. In a universe where there are Jokers and the Scarecrow is a therapist*, is it even worth going to one?

*Wasn't he one? Or something like it?

Take your facts back to Wales where they belong!

Yeah, Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow would be a bad choice for a therapist. But surely there are better ones. Of course, if Bruce had ever gotten drugs, couch time, and occasional electroshock he so clearly needs, none of the Bat-movies would ever have gotten made. Except possibly the Adam West one.

[Anaamika]

"Surely there are better ones"....again, I refer you to Joker, Riddler, Harley Quinn, and Arkham Asylum. Arkham alone should rest my case. Clearly the shrinks in Gotham City are only sane because the rules say they are.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

"Surely there are better ones"....again, I refer you to Joker, Riddler, Harley Quinn, and Arkham Asylum. Arkham alone should rest my case. Clearly the shrinks in Gotham City are only sane because the rules say they are.

What did I just say about bothering me with your facts? Do you WANT me to beat some scapegoat with a wet sturgeon in youur place?

Honestly, though, Alfred should have gotten young Bruce the fuck out of Gotham. Take the kid to Metropolis for Athena's sake.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

What did I just say about bothering me with your facts? Do you WANT me to beat some scapegoat with a wet sturgeon in youur place?

Honestly, though, Alfred should have gotten young Bruce the fuck out of Gotham. Take the kid to Metropolis for Athena's sake.

I just realized, I totally, totally disgregarded your comment about facts. I just scanned over it and my mind said "Who cares, move on. SHRINKS!"

That was a bit silly of me! But if there is sturgeon-beating, sure, I will bug you with more facts.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by Marley23

How do you figure? Most of the stories in the Dark Knight movies were based on famous Batman comics, for example.

I will admit that I'm about as far from a Batman expert as possible. When I was a kid I watched the TV show every chance I got, and I've seen all of the movies, but I have never read a single comic book, nor have I ever really watched any Batman cartoon. (Maybe Super Friends a few times.)

But looking at threads with people who are such experts, it seems that Nolan deviated from canon a good deal. Nicholson's and Ledger's Jokers are quite different, as are Pfieffer's and Hathaway's Catwoman. And the two versions of Two Face are very different.

I don't know which versions of these characters are closer to the comic books, but clearly someone is not being 100% faithful to them.

So to suggest that Nolan may have had one character be both Catwoman and Batgirl doesn't seem all that outrageous to me. Not any more outrageous then Edward Nigma having a brain-sucking device, anyway.

[Anaamika]

Ok, in that sense I guess she's not "Catwoman, hear me roar". She's "The Cat", a very good cat burglar who breaks into Bruce Wayne's safe because he's rich and it's a challenge and why the fuck not? She's very close to Catwoman but not 100% but she is far further from Batgirl than that. She doesn't share many aspects with Batgirl.

Come to think of it, have any of the Batman movies ever included Batgirl? I mean, isn't Batgirl Gordon's daughter (or niece)? Sometimes at least?

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Ok, in that sense I guess she's not "Catwoman, hear me roar". She's "The Cat", a very good cat burglar who breaks into Bruce Wayne's safe because he's rich and it's a challenge and why the fuck not? She's very close to Catwoman but not 100% but she is far further from Batgirl than that. She doesn't share many aspects with Batgirl.

Come to think of it, have any of the Batman movies ever included Batgirl? I mean, isn't Batgirl Gordon's daughter (or niece)? Sometimes at least?

Batman & Robin includes Batgirl. If you haven't seen it, I urge you not to watch rectify that. If you absolutely must watch it because, I dunno, you convert to Catholicism and go to confession and the priest tells you to do it ti as absolution for causing people to be beaten with wet sturgeons, then just watch the first sequence, when the title characters foil the museum heist.

But really, just skip it.

ETA: Your "hear me roar" remark reminds that that Michelle Pfeiffer's character in Batman Returns, while called both Selina Kyle & Catwoman, was pretty far from the comics--much further than Hathaway. She wasn't a jewel thief, for one thing, and was fixated on revenge on a particular person, for another. Comics Catwoman doesn't have time for revenge quests. There are museums to rob, pimps to beat up, vigilantes to fuck. If you piss her off, she'll claw your eyes out immediately, and then she's done.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Batman & Robin includes Batgirl. If you haven't seen it, I urge you not to watch rectify that. If you absolutely must watch it because, I dunno, you convert to Catholicism and go to confession and the priest tells you to do it ti as absolution for causing people to be beaten with wet sturgeons, then just watch the first sequence, when the title characters foil the museum heist.

But really, just skip it.

Haven't seen it. Is that the one with Mr. Freeze? I was thinking about watching it just for the camp. It's the great thing about Netflix; I don't have to go to any extra lengths to get movies at home.

[csupp]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Ok, in that sense I guess she's not "Catwoman, hear me roar". She's "The Cat", a very good cat burglar who breaks into Bruce Wayne's safe because he's rich and it's a challenge and why the fuck not? She's very close to Catwoman but not 100% but she is far further from Batgirl than that. She doesn't share many aspects with Batgirl.

Come to think of it, have any of the Batman movies ever included Batgirl? I mean, isn't Batgirl Gordon's daughter (or niece)? Sometimes at least?

The first Batgirl is Barbara Gordon, James Gordon's daughter. She later became Oracle when Joker shot her and put her in a wheelchair.

Alicia Silverstone played Batgirl in one of the most awful films ever made, Batman & Robin. She pre-chewed all of the scenery in every shot she was in.

[tdn]

Agreed, miss it at all costs. But in that version, she's Alfred's niece.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by csupp

She pre-chewed all of the scenery in every shot she was in.

Agreed, she fit right in.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by csupp

The first Batgirl is Barbara Gordon, James Gordon's daughter. She later became Oracle when Joker shot her and put her in a wheelchair.

Silly Gothamite. The first Batgirl -- well, Bat-Girl -- was Betty Kane ,also known known as Bat-Woman's niece, Bat-Woman being "the only superheroine to regularly carry a purse" and "Bruce Wayne's beard."

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by csupp

The first Batgirl is Barbara Gordon, James Gordon's daughter. She later became Oracle when Joker shot her and put her in a wheelchair.

Alicia Silverstone played Batgirl in one of the most awful films ever made, Batman & Robin. She pre-chewed all of the scenery in every shot she was in.

I've seen her in the Killing Joke, and she's in the Batman: Arkham Asylum game I've just bought (but haven't played too much; been too busy with Lego: Pirates with my SO).

[csupp]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Silly Gothamite. The first Batgirl -- well, Bat-Girl -- was Betty Kane ,also known known as Bat-Woman's niece, Bat-Woman being "the only superheroine to regularly carry a purse" and "Bruce Wayne's beard."

Referencing pre-Crisis continuity is like digging into the Old Testament, my friend.

But I appreciate the education. Cheers.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by csupp

Referencing pre-Crisis continuity is like digging into the Old Testament, my friend.

But I appreciate the education. Cheers.

The same is true of post-Crisis continuity. Do not tempt me to mention Donna Troy, Hawkman, or the Legion of Super-Heroes.

Originally Posted by Anaamika

I've seen her in the Killing Joke, and she's in the Batman: Arkham Asylum game I've just bought (but haven't played too much; been too busy with Lego: Pirates with my SO).

Are you talking about the Killing Joke graphic novel from the early 90s, or some video game?

[csupp]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

The same is true of post-Crisis continuity. Do not tempt me to mention Donna Troy, Hawkman, or the Legion of Super-Heroes.

Going through the Hawkman continuity is the wildest ride in comics. Been that way with a lot of the DC universe. Which is why, when I hear comments like the OP, about how a character is not portrayed consistent with character continuity, I'm compelled to ask - Which character? Which continuity?

For the record, I thought the Nolan films contained an abundant amount of key modern Batman continuity with a lot of Knightfall and No Man's Land stuff in this finale.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Are you talking about the Killing Joke graphic novel from the early 90s, or some video game?

The comic book. I just read it, actually, less than a month ago, for the first time. I was just sort of musing and agreeing.

[ftg]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Come to think of it, have any of the Batman movies ever included Batgirl? I mean, isn't Batgirl Gordon's daughter (or niece)? Sometimes at least?

Forgetting completely about Batman & Robin? I envy you.

[Duke of Rat]

Originally Posted by Acid Lamp

I thought her an unneccesary distraction honestly. She wasn't needed in the script, and we could have done the whole film without her.

Two words:

Tit ties

[digs]

Originally Posted by ftg

Forgetting completely about Batman & Robin? I envy you.

Me, too. Forgetting Alicia Silverstone as 'Clueless Batgirl'? Nice trick!

Can you help me forget Bruce Clooney Wayne? And the fact that Kim Basinger and Jerri Hall and Danny DeVito were in a Batman movie?

[cochrane]

Originally Posted by Munch

Huh? Not in the movies. And actually, not even in the comics. Catwoman is a pretty neutral character, out only for herself. There are plenty of comic arcs where she develops a conscience and works with Bruce. There seems to be a pretty heavy misunderstanding that Catwoman=villain (it probably stems from the 60s TV show).

Even on the TV show, there was sexual tension between The Catwoman as portrayed by Julie Newmar and the Batman. She declared her love for him on many occasions and the Caped Crusader responded. They both expressed regret that they were on opposite sides of the law. That's something that kids watching at the time probably didn't pick up on, but rewatching the episodes as an adult, it's clear to me.

[Kamino Neko]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

I mean, isn't Batgirl Gordon's daughter (or niece)?

Depending at which point in her history, Babs has been both daughter and niece-who-was-adopted-and-treated-like-a-daughter (and may well have been his actual daughter, due to an affair that Jim had with his sister-in-law).

Currently, it's daughter, no adoption necessary.

(The various Batgirls -

Betty Kane. No longer in-continuity, although her aunt Kathy (Bat-Woman) is (and a separate set of character from Kate Kane (Batwoman) and her cousin Bette (Flamebird), who headline Batwoman).

Barbara Gordon.

Helena Bertinelli (very briefly). AKA Huntress, she no longer exists. (The Helena Wayne Huntress is back.)

Cassandra Caine (wore the same costume as Hel).

Stephanie Brown (FKA Spoiler, and had a brief stint as Robin).

Cass and Steph's current status is unknown.)

[Bryan Ekers]

You wanna see a good Batman movie? Here's a good (potential) Batman movie.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by tdn

But looking at threads with people who are such experts, it seems that Nolan deviated from canon a good deal. Nicholson's and Ledger's Jokers are quite different, as are Pfieffer's and Hathaway's Catwoman. And the two versions of Two Face are very different.

The bottom line here is that these characters have been around for a couple of generations and there are many ways to interpret them, so different filmmakers are going to go in different directions. I'm more familiar with the movies than the comics, but I'd say that in general the '80s/'90s Batman series relied on older versions of these characters and the Dark Knight series is based on more recent versions. But in both cases the generalities and a lot of the specifics came from the comics. Besides, I don't see why Nicholson gets to be canon and Ledger doesn't. I'm not sure that Nolan debated from the canonical stuff more than Burton did, but that's at least debatable and it's certainly not true that he was "unrestrained" by canon. Like I was saying, the Nolan movies share a lot of major points with famous recent-ish Batman comics, and some of the characters are different in tone, but they're recognizably the same people. Ok, they didn't call Selina Catwoman, but she was a cat burglar who spent much of the movie wearing cat ears (her night-vision goggles) who had a complicated and romantic relationship with Batman. That pretty well screams Catwoman.

[Jragon]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Are you not feeling well? Obviously it was Alfred.

Yeah, but he had to burn down the opera house to find the thief that picked up some of them before he got there.

[Bryan Ekers]

Heck, I don't have the slightest problem with "canon" variations. When I read Batman as a kid, Bruce Wayne hadn't gone to Asia to train before becoming Batman. Alfred hadn't been a lifelong servant to the Wayne family who'd known Bruce in infancy. Earth-2 Batman and Earth-2 Catwoman were married (I actually have this issue)... so, fine, whatever...

I have, however, objections to stupid movies, where antagonist motivation is nonsensical and inconsistent and plot holes are gaping and absurd contrivances are rampant. Same deal with the new Star Trek movie. I didn't care that they reworked the characters - I cared that they put them in such a determinedly stupid situation.

[muldoonthief]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

I've seen her in the Killing Joke, and she's in the Batman: Arkham Asylum game I've just bought (but haven't played too much; been too busy with Lego: Pirates with my SO).

(my bolding) Didn't you post a thread a while back about how nervous you were about playing Bioshock, because you get so terrified playing horror games? You may just want to avoid playing Arkham Asylum in the middle of the night during a thunderstorm then.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by muldoonthief

(my bolding) Didn't you post a thread a while back about how nervous you were about playing Bioshock, because you get so terrified playing horror games? You may just want to avoid playing Arkham Asylum in the middle of the night during a thunderstorm then.

Arkham Asylum isn't scary. At all. I've been playing it for a while now, off and on, and while it's certainly moody, and dark, it hasn't scared me once. I take it it is supposed to?

[tdn]

Originally Posted by Marley23

That pretty well screams Catwoman.

Of course it does. I'm not denying that she was Catwoman. But I was also getting whispers of Batgirl. It is entirely possible that she's both.