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  #1  
Old 08-21-2012, 09:19 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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What is the difference between rape and incest?

In all this controversy surrounding Rep. Todd Akin's "forcible rape" comments, a certain question has arisen in my mind regarding definitions. It seems to be a belief among many in the Republican party that even pregnancies resulting from "rape or incest" cannot legally be aborted. My question is, what's the difference here? How is incestual sex not rape? I mean, if statutory rape is rape, then incest is rape. Differentiating between the two seems to do a disservice to the victims, IMO. However, I may be lacking some bit of knowledge that legitimizes (no pun) this distinction. So, what is the difference, if any, between rape and incest?
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  #2  
Old 08-21-2012, 09:20 PM
zombywoof zombywoof is offline
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While maybe all incest is rape, not all rape is incest, of course.
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  #3  
Old 08-21-2012, 09:21 PM
Eyebrows 0f Doom Eyebrows 0f Doom is offline
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Seriously?


Two related people of legal age have consensual sex. Incest, but not rape.

Two related people have sex, it is not consensual. Incest and rape.

Two related people have sex, one of whom is underage. Incest and rape.


Not sure what's hard to understand about that...

Last edited by Eyebrows 0f Doom; 08-21-2012 at 09:24 PM..
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  #4  
Old 08-21-2012, 09:24 PM
Farmer Jane Farmer Jane is offline
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Originally Posted by Eyebrows 0f Doom View Post
Seriously?

Two related people of legal age have consensual sex. Incest, not rape.
If it's consensual sex, then why do they care if one gets pregnant?

Oh, the ick factor! Yeah.

Also, two adults can have sex and one can still be charged with incest. See here. He was charged but his daughter wasn't.
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  #5  
Old 08-21-2012, 09:27 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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Originally Posted by Eyebrows 0f Doom View Post
Seriously?


Two related people of legal age have consensual sex. Incest, but not rape.

Two related people have sex, it is not consensual. Incest and rape.

Two related people have sex, one of whom is underage. Incest and rape.


Not sure what's hard to understand about that...
I guess I didn't know all that was needed to qualify as "incest" was for the participants to be related. It's why I put this in GQ; to be educated. How close does this relation need to be in order to qualify as being an incestual one?
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  #6  
Old 08-21-2012, 09:33 PM
aldiboronti aldiboronti is offline
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Rape is rape and incest is incest. Sometimes the two overlap, sometimes they don't. There's simply no way, legal or otherwise, that you can conflate the two. How could consensual sex between brother and sister, for example, both of legal age, be construed as rape?
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  #7  
Old 08-21-2012, 09:33 PM
Mr. Kobayashi Mr. Kobayashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
I guess I didn't know all that was needed to qualify as "incest" was for the participants to be related. It's why I put this in GQ; to be educated. How close does this relation need to be in order to qualify as being an incestual one?
Depends on the country. Or state. 1st cousin marriage is legal in some states but not others. In the United States.

As to why pregnancy is a taboo, well that's pretty obvious. Too much of it leads to problems. The gene pool needs to be deeper than a paddling pool to ensure healthy progeny.
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  #8  
Old 08-21-2012, 09:35 PM
Giles Giles is offline
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Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
How close does this relation need to be in order to qualify as being an incestual one?
That depends on the jurisdiction. I think parent and child, and brother and sister, would be incest everywhere; first cousins are incestuous in some places, and legal in others.
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  #9  
Old 08-21-2012, 09:37 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kobayashi View Post
Depends on the country. Or state. 1st cousin marriage is legal in some states but not others. In the United States.

As to why pregnancy is a taboo, well that's pretty obvious. Too much of it leads to problems. The gene pool needs to be deeper than a paddling pool to ensure healthy progeny.
Yes, I admit to some brain farts when posting this OP. Of course I understand the difference between a fully grown brother and sister having consentual sex and that sister being raped. I guess my question should have been what you were answering here: what defines "incest".
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  #10  
Old 08-21-2012, 09:44 PM
Mr. Kobayashi Mr. Kobayashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
Yes, I admit to some brain farts when posting this OP. Of course I understand the difference between a fully grown brother and sister having consentual sex and that sister being raped. I guess my question should have been what you were answering here: what defines "incest".
In law, over in England it's specifically defined as "sexual intercourse between a person and their parent, grandparent, child, grandchild, brother, sister, half-brother, half-sister, uncle, aunt, nephew or niece."
Those categories seem to be more-or-less shared across most cultures; the 1st cousin is the gray area. Legal to get married to your 1st cousin here, in Texas it's incest.

Last edited by Mr. Kobayashi; 08-21-2012 at 09:46 PM..
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  #11  
Old 08-21-2012, 09:57 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Rape is forcible sex. One partner is forced into sex. Non-consensual.

Statutory rape recognizes that underage persons are unable to give consent, so any sex is non-consensual.

Incest is sex between relatives that is illegal. It varies by legal jurisdiction, but can be consensual.

A lot of people infer that incest is a father or step-father forcing himself on an underaged girl. That can be both incest and rape.

But incest needn't be rape if it is between consenting adults who otherwise are not permitted by law to have sex.
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  #12  
Old 08-21-2012, 10:07 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
A lot of people infer that incest is a father or step-father forcing himself on an underaged girl.


Meekly raises hand. Guilty myself. Wasn't really thinking when composing the OP.
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  #13  
Old 08-21-2012, 10:12 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
Meekly raises hand. Guilty myself. Wasn't really thinking when composing the OP.
To be fair, I would suspect that the vast majority of cases are father/step-father* forces himself on underage daughter/step-daughter. I don't think anyone really cares (beyond "ick") if a 30 year old guy and his 32 year old sister have consensual sex.

*or uncle or brother or cousin...

Last edited by John Mace; 08-21-2012 at 10:13 PM..
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  #14  
Old 08-21-2012, 10:24 PM
Pai325 Pai325 is offline
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Originally Posted by Farmer Jane View Post
If it's consensual sex, then why do they care if one gets pregnant?
Two people don't have to be related to be upset about consensual sex resulting in a pregnancy.
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  #15  
Old 08-21-2012, 10:35 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Incest is not illegal in every state.
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  #16  
Old 08-21-2012, 11:06 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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Many sources refer to "victims" "rape or incest". How could one be a "victim" of incest but not be a victim of rape?
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  #17  
Old 08-21-2012, 11:21 PM
IvoryTowerDenizen IvoryTowerDenizen is offline
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Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
Many sources refer to "victims" "rape or incest". How could one be a "victim" of incest but not be a victim of rape?
In that case you can't, really. It's a phrasing to make the obvious need for an abortion palatable to ardent anti-choice folks.
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  #18  
Old 08-21-2012, 11:32 PM
Muffin Muffin is online now
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Originally Posted by Farmer Jane View Post
If it's consensual sex, then why do they care if one gets pregnant?

Oh, the ick factor! Yeah.

Also, two adults can have sex and one can still be charged with incest. See here. He was charged but his daughter wasn't.
Pled to misdemeanor incest. One year conditional discharge. Glad it wasn't urethritis and penis discharge.

Last edited by Muffin; 08-21-2012 at 11:33 PM..
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  #19  
Old 08-21-2012, 11:35 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
Incest is not illegal in every state.
Only RI. You'd think West Virginia would be more lenient...
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  #20  
Old 08-22-2012, 12:02 AM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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Presumably, too, if both are under the age of consent it may not be statutory rape. (I.e. siblings) Or, if they fall in the 16-18yo exception.

Incest, too, can be a crime with consent; many places the law makes an exception that it's statutory rape even if the person consented (IIRC, say she is between 16 and 18) if the person is a parent, step-parent, teacher, or similar person in authority over the victim - the asumption being there is some element of coercion. If the person is not someone in authority, but still related, that's just incest.

Just because she consented (assuming she did) and just because he was not in authority over her, does not mean she wanted to get pregnant or keep the child.

IMHO - The logic is unassailable however you may think it is wrong - if abortion is supposed to be "killing a human life", it is not allowed. A child of rape or incest is still an innocent child. To my mind, the "rape and incest exception" anti-abortion types are the worst hypocrites. Either you can abort a fetus for whatever reason you like, or you cannot abort for purely personal reasons no matter how reprehensible the conception. (Me, I think it's totally up to the mother)

So the guy may have been stupid (??) for somehow thinking that conception is a conscious choice - but at least his moral point of view was honest and consistent.
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  #21  
Old 08-22-2012, 03:45 AM
picunurse picunurse is offline
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How is a step-father/child incest? He isn't related. That, it seems to me, is rape, pure and simple.
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  #22  
Old 08-22-2012, 03:51 AM
Nava Nava is offline
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If the law defines it as incest, it's not incest biologically but it's incest legally. Many of those laws assume that incest will not be voluntary (same as you're assuming that step-father/child is not, while I'm hearing echoes of The Woody Allen Situation) and have higher penalties for incest than for statutory rape and for statutory rape than for non-statutory rape.
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  #23  
Old 08-22-2012, 07:49 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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IANAL, and I expect the answer is "it depends where you are", but is it even possible to legally consent to an act that is itself illegal? Is not all incest rape, by this virtue?

Can a person, for example, legally consent to being murdered?
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  #24  
Old 08-22-2012, 07:58 AM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mangetout View Post
IANAL, and I expect the answer is "it depends where you are", but is it even possible to legally consent to an act that is itself illegal? Is not all incest rape, by this virtue?

Can a person, for example, legally consent to being murdered?
Rights like to not be assaulted are set by the state, and assault or murder is an offense against the state. However, many consenting acts (boxing, wresting, being checked in hockey) would be illegal if there was no consent. Others - actual serious injury, death - you cannot consent to, but consent may mitigate the guilt of the other party.

No, but if sex between two consenting adults is incest, technically the can both be charged. We're long past the point where "rape" is something done by men to women, especially if you read the news about quite a few female teachers.

The law usually defines statutory rape differently for people "in a position of authority" over the victim - parent, step-parent, teacher, doctor or therapist, etc. These are people whose position implies they already have control and a child is more likely to do what they say and obey orders to keep it quiet.

I suppose step-parent should be rape not incest....

Last edited by md2000; 08-22-2012 at 07:59 AM..
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  #25  
Old 08-22-2012, 08:38 AM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
Incest is not illegal in every state.
Is this technically true, or is it the case that certain relationships are not defined as incestual in certain states?
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  #26  
Old 08-22-2012, 08:53 AM
Max Torque Max Torque is offline
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
Only RI. You'd think West Virginia would be more lenient...
Which of course leads us to the joke: Why is police work so hard in West Virginia?

There are no dental records and all the DNA is the same.
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  #27  
Old 08-22-2012, 09:00 AM
Hampshire Hampshire is offline
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It seems to me that if they go through the trouble of seperating the two with 'or' when they mention "in cases of rape or incest" then the the 'incest' portion must mean concentual incest and not rape incest since rape incest would automatically fall under the term rape.
If this is indeed the case it seems like an odd pairing and that plenty of people would have various opinions on which combination of the two they are for or against.
I.e.:
Pro-abortion in cases or rape, pro-abortion in cases of concentual incest.
Pro-abortion in cases of tape, anti-abortion in cases of concentual incest.
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  #28  
Old 08-22-2012, 09:06 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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I have to wonder if most people think about it that much. Like I said above, I doubt they get beyond the "ick" factor and assume it would only occur between deviants or something.
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  #29  
Old 08-22-2012, 09:18 AM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
Is this technically true, or is it the case that certain relationships are not defined as incestual in certain states?
In New Jersey family relationships only come into play in the law when it comes to age of consent. It bumps it up to 18 instead of 16. Incest is not illegal if both are adults. And it's one of the states that 1st cousins can marry.

For other states you would have to check each one. As stated earlier Rhode Island repealed their statute.
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  #30  
Old 08-22-2012, 09:23 AM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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I think there are also some jurisdictions around the world where uncle-niece is an allowed pairing. I don't know about aunt-nephew, though: The sorts of places where uncle-niece is allowed tend not to be renowned for their gender parity.
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  #31  
Old 08-22-2012, 09:32 AM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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In Canada, uncle-niece and aunt-nephew marriage is permitted, as is cousin marriage.
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  #32  
Old 08-22-2012, 12:17 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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Would aborting a pregnancy that was a result of consentual incestual sex be no different, in the eyes of some, than aborting the pregnancy that was the result of a rape? If so, why?

Last edited by Ambivalid; 08-22-2012 at 12:22 PM..
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  #33  
Old 08-22-2012, 02:03 PM
gunnergoz gunnergoz is offline
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I'm simply amazed at the amount of ignorance in the general public about these topics. Not in this forum, but in the people that the media, pundits and political parties seem to deal with.
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  #34  
Old 08-22-2012, 02:07 PM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
Would aborting a pregnancy that was a result of consentual incestual sex be no different, in the eyes of some, than aborting the pregnancy that was the result of a rape? If so, why?
Of course, IIRC one law proposed along these lines in some state required that a charge of incest or rape be laid before an abortion was permitted. Not sure what happens if the perp is dead...

IMHO if a fetus is a human being with "right to life" then how it was conceived is irrelevant to the conversation. Either the only reason is "medical necessity - danger of loss of life" or anything goes.

First cousins, according to a recent thread, share approximately 3% same DNA (assuming only 1 cousin connection). This is significantly less than siblings (about 50%), half-siblings (25%) or parent-child (50%). Uncle-niece etc. would be about 13%.
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  #35  
Old 08-22-2012, 02:12 PM
robert_columbia robert_columbia is offline
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
In Canada, uncle-niece and aunt-nephew marriage is permitted, as is cousin marriage.
I tend to think of first cousin marriage as kind of squicky, though I understand that some cultures permit it. For me (guy), my only girl cousin is much younger than me and I can't emotionally see her as not a little girl. She belongs in my lap, not my bed, lol.
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  #36  
Old 08-22-2012, 02:24 PM
Skald the Rhymer Skald the Rhymer is offline
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
To be fair, I would suspect that the vast majority of cases are father/step-father* forces himself on underage daughter/step-daughter. I don't think anyone really cares (beyond "ick") if a 30 year old guy and his 32 year old sister have consensual sex.

*or uncle or brother or cousin...
Here's a case from 2005 of adult siblings being arrested for incest.

Here's a 2010 case of a 48-year-old man being arrested for having an affair with his adult daughter, said affair having begun when the daughter was of age.
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  #37  
Old 08-22-2012, 02:31 PM
SpoilerVirgin SpoilerVirgin is offline
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Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
Would aborting a pregnancy that was a result of consentual incestual sex be no different, in the eyes of some, than aborting the pregnancy that was the result of a rape? If so, why?
Not "no different," but also a special case, because of the genetic implications. That is, some people who oppose abortion in general might say that in certain special cases such as rape (because you wouldn't want to impose additional trauma on the victim) or incest (because of the possibilities of genetic abnormalities in the child), they would allow abortion.
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  #38  
Old 08-22-2012, 05:25 PM
Muffin Muffin is online now
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Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer View Post
This one wins the trifecta: southern state, trailer home, drunken sibling sex.
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  #39  
Old 08-22-2012, 06:01 PM
jtgain jtgain is offline
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Originally Posted by Max Torque View Post
Which of course leads us to the joke: Why is police work so hard in West Virginia?

There are no dental records and all the DNA is the same.
Haha! And all niggers love watermelons and fried chicken! How is this shit allowed on this board? Are there mods here or do they only moderate slams against gay people?
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  #40  
Old 08-22-2012, 06:21 PM
Farmer Jane Farmer Jane is offline
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Originally Posted by Pai325 View Post
Two people don't have to be related to be upset about consensual sex resulting in a pregnancy.
But I'm wondering why some want a policy exemption for "incest".
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  #41  
Old 08-22-2012, 06:23 PM
Farmer Jane Farmer Jane is offline
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Not "no different," but also a special case, because of the genetic implications. That is, some people who oppose abortion in general might say that in certain special cases such as rape (because you wouldn't want to impose additional trauma on the victim) or incest (because of the possibilities of genetic abnormalities in the child), they would allow abortion.
I doubt that. Those are the same people who object to aborting fetuses that could have Down Syndrome.
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  #42  
Old 08-22-2012, 06:27 PM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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Originally Posted by SpoilerVirgin View Post
Not "no different," but also a special case, because of the genetic implications. That is, some people who oppose abortion in general might say that in certain special cases such as rape (because you wouldn't want to impose additional trauma on the victim) or incest (because of the possibilities of genetic abnormalities in the child), they would allow abortion.
I don't think that is the basis for the incest exception. If it's simply the possibility of genetic abnormalities that justifies abortion, then that same principle should allow abortions if amniotic testing shows the foetus has an actual genetic abnormality, such as Downs. Yet pro-lifers don't usually agree with abortion in those cases, do they?
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  #43  
Old 08-22-2012, 06:40 PM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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I think there are also some jurisdictions around the world where uncle-niece is an allowed pairing. I don't know about aunt-nephew, though: The sorts of places where uncle-niece is allowed tend not to be renowned for their gender parity.
Theoretically, an uncle/niece or aunt/nephew marriage is possible in France, but it requires a presidential dispense. I guess this was probably originally intended in case of pregnancy, but I've no clue how often such a dispense is granted nowadays or even if it's ever done.

(And there's no law against any kind of incest if neither participant is a minor)
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  #44  
Old 08-22-2012, 07:08 PM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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I've no clue how often such a dispense is granted nowadays or even if it's ever done.
I couldn't find any recent figures (the most recent dating back from the late 50s). There were about 10-20 dispenses granted each year during the 90s, but they include other types of relatives, like a father in law marrying his daughter in law. No clue about uncle-aunt/niece-nephew specifically.

However I discovered two things :

-Germany and Netherlands have both lifted their bans on these marriages (uncle/niece, I mean).

-Not really related, a procedure I was aware of apparently only exists in France (I had assumed it was done in other countries as well) : post-mortem marriages.
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  #45  
Old 08-22-2012, 07:41 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Quoth md2000:

First cousins, according to a recent thread, share approximately 3% same DNA (assuming only 1 cousin connection). This is significantly less than siblings (about 50%), half-siblings (25%) or parent-child (50%). Uncle-niece etc. would be about 13%.
Actually, first cousins are 1/8 (12.5%) consanguineous, and uncle-niece etc. is 1/4 (25%).

And to be strictly nitpicky, the vast majority of our DNA is shared among all humans, but I know that's not what you meant there.
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  #46  
Old 08-22-2012, 07:54 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is offline
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Originally Posted by SpoilerVirgin View Post
Not "no different," but also a special case, because of the genetic implications. That is, some people who oppose abortion in general might say that in certain special cases such as rape (because you wouldn't want to impose additional trauma on the victim) or incest (because of the possibilities of genetic abnormalities in the child), they would allow abortion.
But in one instance, the sex was a choice for both parties. If concerns for genetic abnormalities were so paramount, then the sex that allowed that pregnancy wouldn't have occurred in the first place, would it? The same can't be said of the sex that took place for the pregnancy resulting from the rape. That was involuntary sex, on the part of the woman (in this instance). So how can they even be on the same level of "special case"?
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  #47  
Old 08-22-2012, 08:42 PM
Bookkeeper Bookkeeper is offline
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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
-Not really related, a procedure I was aware of apparently only exists in France (I had assumed it was done in other countries as well) : post-mortem marriages.
OK, now, you can't just leave this dangling in front of us with no further explanation!
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  #48  
Old 08-22-2012, 09:30 PM
Colibri Colibri is offline
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Haha! And all niggers love watermelons and fried chicken! How is this shit allowed on this board? Are there mods here or do they only moderate slams against gay people?
Moderator Warning

jtgain, you've been here long enough to know that this kind or gratuitous use of racial slurs is out of place in GQ. If you were so offended by the posts, you should have reported them. This is an official warning. Do not do this again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
Only RI. You'd think West Virginia would be more lenient...
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Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
This one wins the trifecta: southern state, trailer home, drunken sibling sex.
Moderator Note

Let's keep the regional slurs out of GQ too, even if intended as a joke. I'm making this a note instead of a warning because the language is not over the top as in jtgain's.

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Last edited by Colibri; 08-22-2012 at 09:33 PM..
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  #49  
Old 08-22-2012, 10:02 PM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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I don't think that is the basis for the incest exception. If it's simply the possibility of genetic abnormalities that justifies abortion, then that same principle should allow abortions if amniotic testing shows the foetus has an actual genetic abnormality, such as Downs. Yet pro-lifers don't usually agree with abortion in those cases, do they?
I think it's a calculated convenience. It allows the extremists to get support lot of people who find abortion somewhat disagreeable but not horrible, and certainly think it's OK for "poor innocent victims".

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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Actually, first cousins are 1/8 (12.5%) consanguineous, and uncle-niece etc. is 1/4 (25%).

And to be strictly nitpicky, the vast majority of our DNA is shared among all humans, but I know that's not what you meant there.
Oops sorry, the 3% was second cousins.
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Old 08-23-2012, 03:45 PM
SpoilerVirgin SpoilerVirgin is offline
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Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
But in one instance, the sex was a choice for both parties. If concerns for genetic abnormalities were so paramount, then the sex that allowed that pregnancy wouldn't have occurred in the first place, would it? The same can't be said of the sex that took place for the pregnancy resulting from the rape. That was involuntary sex, on the part of the woman (in this instance). So how can they even be on the same level of "special case"?
I think that religious people who would make the exception for incest would see it as something morally repugnant and totally against God's law -- even more so than adultery or sex outside of marriage. Like rape, they would see it as so deviant that they would be willing to make an exception. The people who engaged in consensual incest would essentially be the equivalent of the rapist -- violating a powerful moral taboo. I'm strongly pro-choice, but I can see why someone who was against abortion might make an exception in the case of incest.
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