I love this artist. I also hate him. Here's why.

[Skald the Rhymer]

In general, I love Joss Whedon. Angel is probably in my top five tv series of all time; Buffy the Vampire Slayer isn't quite as wonderful, but still superior to 97% every other tV show ever made. The Avengers needed more horses, but it had Gwyneth Paltrow in short shorts so I give it thumbs up. I can't think of a Whedon-helmed production I've ever seriously disliked.

That said, I also hate Joss Whedon. Why? Because he hates happiness. Specifically, he hates happy couples and likeable supporting. Being merrily in love with your wife is a ticket to Hades in the Whedonverse; being beloved by the fans is a guarantee of authorially-mandated suffering. Fred Burkle. Hoban Wash. Shepherd Book. Fred. Phil Coulson. FRED!

:: sobs ::

But that's just me. What writer or director do you love and hate at the same time, and why?

[kaylasdad99]

I love and hate Joss Whedon as well.

Why? Because Buffy the Vampire Slayer was perfect, just as it was. A single movie about an unusually-talented high school cheerleader, the mysterious stranger who trains her, the slacker/drifter who loves her, and the Master Vampire whom she has hunted through the ages.

There was no need to screw it up with a freakin' TV show that went on for so many years that it wasn't even plausible to have her remain a high school cheerleader.

In my mind,

SPOILER:

PeeWee Herman

is still not finished with

SPOILER:

his death throes,

twenty years later.

[Anaamika]

Robin Hobb. When I read her books I generally put all of my own writing aside. She moves me so much, and her writing moves me so much that I look at my own writing and know it to be mediocre at best. She is so good it hurts to read.

But man, she likes to grind her protagonist down. My favorite series of books by her is the Assassin trilogy, and I love Fitz up and down and sideways but my god, by the end of the trilogy, he has been through so goddamn much.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by kaylasdad99

I love and hate Joss Whedon as well.

Why? Because Buffy the Vampire Slayer was perfect, just as it was. A single movie about an unusually-talented high school cheerleader, the mysterious stranger who trains her, the slacker/drifter who loves her, and the Master Vampire whom she has hunted through the ages.

There was no need to screw it up with a freakin' TV show that went on for so many years that it wasn't even plausible to have her remain a high school cheerleader.

:: slaps kaylasdad99 with dry sturgeon ::

Fool of a Vampire! Buffy wasn't a cheerleader in the series, with the exception of one episode. She also was in highschool for less than half the series.

On the other hand, BtVS the series is in large part responsible for Twilight, so Whedon has much to answer for.

[Ethilrist]

Mercedes Lackey has written a series of novels set in the fantasy world of Valdemar. She's done a great job of filling out the history and culture of the world, but she has, unfortunately, gone to the Anne McCaffrey Well of Bad Romance Plots a few too many times:

Male lead: She must never find out how much I love her.
Female lead: He must never find out how much I live him.
Angst ensues.
They find out.

[mage-girl]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

In general, I love Joss Whedon. Angel is probably in my top five tv series of all time; Buffy the Vampire Slayer isn't quite as wonderful, but still superior to 97% every other tV show ever made. The Avengers needed more horses, but it had Gwyneth Paltrow in short shorts so I give it thumbs up. I can't think of a Whedon-helmed production I've ever seriously disliked.

That said, I also hate Joss Whedon. Why? Because he hates happiness. Specifically, he hates happy couples and likeable supporting. Being merrily in love with your wife is a ticket to Hades in the Whedonverse; being beloved by the fans is a guarantee of authorially-mandated suffering. Fred Burkle. Hoban Wash. Shepherd Book. Fred. Phil Coulson. FRED!

:: sobs ::

But that's just me. What writer or director do you love and hate at the same time, and why?

Just had to say I agree with you here, Skald. A few of my RL friends have a bad case of Whedon-worship. I have to remind them from time to time that he's not perfect, which generally brings us to the brink of serious argument. They hold The Avengers up as an example of his greatness; er, the only reason it was so good was because they weren't his characters, so there were limits as to how much he could screw them up. I swear, he gets some sort of sick enjoyment out of it. It would be disturbing if--Hell yes, it's disturbing!

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

:: slaps kaylasdad99 with dry sturgeon ::

Fool of a Vampire! Buffy wasn't a cheerleader in the series, with the exception of one episode. She also was in highschool for less than half the series.

My apologies. I clumsily failed to get across my point that there should have been no series.

*sniff* *sniff*

Is that a beluga sturgeon? Can I have a bite?

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by kaylasdad99

My apologies. I clumsily failed to get across my point that there should have been no series.

*sniff* *sniff*

Is that a beluga sturgeon? Can I have a bite?

:: smack ::

Without BtVS, we would not have Alyson Hannigan. Probably no Doctor Horrible either. Avengers would have been directed by Michael Bay.

:: smack ::

Why do you force me to hurt you?

[StGermain]

Wash's first name was Hoban?? What was Joss thinking?

StG

I'm a leaf in the wind...watch me soar

[Loach]

Whedon is an amateur. George R.R. Martin knows how to make his characters suffer.

[John DiFool]

Neil Gaiman, for almost all of the same reasons. I adored Sandman, understand. But the last anthology of his I simply gave up on, because every single short story finished on a nihilistic down note.

[Cinnamon Imp]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Robin Hobb. When I read her books I generally put all of my own writing aside. She moves me so much, and her writing moves me so much that I look at my own writing and know it to be mediocre at best. She is so good it hurts to read.

But man, she likes to grind her protagonist down. My favorite series of books by her is the Assassin trilogy, and I love Fitz up and down and sideways but my god, by the end of the trilogy, he has been through so goddamn much.

And then he loses the Fool! *sobs*

[EmilyG]

I feel that way about Charles Dickens sometimes. In general, I love his books - his writing, characters, plots, etc. But sometimes his style is so unneccessarily wordy that it bothers me a little.

[Baal Houtham]

Heinlein. The "Dean" of science fiction writers. Good science, abundant ideas, fascinatingly self-assured. But, damn, that same self-assurance made him an asshole, most regrettably in the incest fantasies of his old age.

[Justin_Bailey]

He doesn't qualify as much anymore, but pretend I wrote this in 2008:

I love and hate MC Lars, the nerdcore rapper of "Download This Song"

I love him because his songs are catchy and nerdy and fun. But I hate him because he posts on his Facebook page everyday calling other nerdcore rappers idiots, saying his fans are delusional if they think they can become a nerdcore rapper like him, and how hard it is to be a semi-famous performer when you have to perform semi-famously at least once a week.

He's since calmed down, but he was an insufferable prick in 2008 and I think it tainted how I feel about all his subsequent albums.

[Ephemera]

Joss killing off his characters doesn't bother me. I actually like it, even though most of the characters he has killed have been some of my favorites. They're warriors. Warriors should occasionally die.

[Mosier]

At least with Wash, it was less than 30 seconds of being dragged around thinking "There must be some mistake" before finally accepting he was gone.

With Winifred Burkle, it took every second of the two-part episode. Joss strung us along for an hour and a half, thinking the good guys were SO GODDAMN CLOSE to curing her. She dies slowly, in pain, terrified, and most of the crew doesn't even make it back in time to see her one last time. Whedon pulled every manipulative trick he could think of, to make her death hurt as much as possible. May his feet be nibbled by swarms of hungry gnats for all eternity.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by Cinnamon Imp

And then he loses the Fool! *sobs*

I know. I cried so much.

Ephemera, you're not wrong, in that warriors should occasionally die. However, the way Joss kills his characters feels like a cheat and a copout to me. "Let's see, we need to kill someone now." Feels like he picks out of a hat! I don't mind angst or drama or sadness, if it's properly justified. For example, if Mal had died, fighting the Operative, I feel it would have made more sense to the story. Instead he just does it for cheap tears. And it makes me resent him all the more.

[Mauvaise]

Originally Posted by EmilyG

I feel that way about Charles Dickens sometimes. In general, I love his books - his writing, characters, plots, etc. But sometimes his style is so unneccessarily wordy that it bothers me a little.

You may already know this (and this might be apocryphal) but I believe the reason he is so wordy is that his novels originally appeared in serial form weekly (monthly?) where he was paid by the word.

Originally Posted by Ephemera

Joss killing off his characters doesn't bother me. I actually like it, even though most of the characters he has killed have been some of my favorites. They're warriors. Warriors should occasionally die.

Exactly. Plus, once you know that he has no qualms about killing off popular & loved main characters then it ups the anxiety because you feel that no one is safe. That's a plus!

[JSexton]

I appreciate it when creators are willing to do hard things to beloved characters. It makes for good drama. And sometimes good people die for lousy reasons. That's life.

[edwards_beard]

Michael Jackson - obvious reasons

[Daddypants]

George Lucas, obviously.

[Finagle]

Originally Posted by Loach

Whedon is an amateur. George R.R. Martin knows how to make his characters suffer.

Yes, but also his readers.

[FlyingDragonFan]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

For example, if Mal had died, fighting the Operative, I feel it would have made more sense to the story.

But that would have also ended the story of Serenity and her crew. Mal was the driving force behind everything they did, so killing him would have cut short any future possibilities. Sure, Zoe could have taken over the ship or whatever, but it wouldn't have been the same underlying dynamic in any meaningful way.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by FlyingDragonFan

But that would have also ended the story of Serenity and her crew. Mal was the driving force behind everything they did, so killing him would have cut short any future possibilities. Sure, Zoe could have taken over the ship or whatever, but it wouldn't have been the same underlying dynamic in any meaningful way.

? The show and the movie was over?

[GargoyleWB]

Originally Posted by Loach

Whedon is an amateur. George R.R. Martin knows how to make his characters suffer.

China Mieville laughs at their joyful optimistic sparkle 'n rainbow worlds...

[astorian]

Robert Fripp.

The love is easy to explain- he's made some amazingly good music, over the years.

But the hate is NOT just because he's such an off-putting, nonsense-spouting dweeb. It's because EVERY time a band he's in does some promising work and seems to be on the verge of sustained brilliance, he either gets tired of the people he's working with and breaks up the band... or he alienates everyone else, until they all quit.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by GargoyleWB

China Mieville laughs at their joyful optimistic sparkle 'n rainbow worlds...

Indeed. Spoiler ahead for Perdido Street Station:

SPOILER:

There's a great trivia question: "Who has the happy ending in Perdido Street Station?

The answer is a character who, midway through the book, says, "Screw this, I'm outta here," and leaves. Now, they're probably captured by some sort of termite-people and used as a living fungus-farm for the next thirty years, but we don't see that happen, so we can imagine that, unlike every other character in the book, their life isn't a protracted negation of every hope and dream they'll ever have.

But I like that kind of thing. Whedon's willingness to kill characters off arbitrarily and almost whimsically is, in my opinion, one of his great strengths as a storyteller. Deaths change the story in his works, but they don't necessarily serve the story; rather, the story responds to death. That makes it hit home much more powerfully than deaths that seem to be in service to the story, dramatically-appropriate deaths where the tragic hero goes out with a bang.

[EmilyG]

Originally Posted by Mauvaise

You may already know this (and this might be apocryphal) but I believe the reason he is so wordy is that his novels originally appeared in serial form weekly (monthly?) where he was paid by the word.

That is, in fact, untrue. It's just a popular legend that he was paid by the word. My theory is that he had a certain amount of space weekly/monthly to write a chapter, and tried to fill up that space as much as possible.

[awldune]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

Robin Hobb.

She does seem to be particularly sadistic towards her protagonists. Nevare in the Soldier Son series has it even worse than Fitz IMHO. This is different from various authors who go out of their way to create a grim world where *everyone* is miserable.

[Kamino Neko]

Alan Moore.

Love him:
He's created some incredible stories. He's well read and intelligent, and at his best brings that to his comics work. He's wonderfully WEIRD in his public persona.

Hate him:
He hasn't created any of those incredible stories in near-on a decade at this point. He's also obnoxiously CRANKY in his public persona. He constantly decries the darkening trend in mainstream comics, while producing stuff that's 10 times worse than any of it. (At this point, there's a certain part of fandom who hears Moore's name, and immediately wonders which character got raped, since he goes to that well so consistently.*) On that note, he also nominally accepts his 'blame' for being part of creating the trend, while spinning history so that he's not the bad guy. (eg: The Killing Joke 'It wasn't meant to be in-continuity' and 'I asked if I could have Barbara paralyzed and the editor said "Cripple the bitch".') He constantly blames people for wrongs against him that they never committed - either legitimate gripes about previous publishing regimes, still visited upon the current gang (eg, Marvel and DC ripping him off in the 80s), or whiny moments about unrelated entities (like demanding DC apologize for something the Wachowskis said concerning the V for Vendetta movie, instead of the Wachowskis and Warner Brothers' film division). He doesn't seem to understand how a shared world works, and thinks that building upon the stories that he wrote is 'creatively bankrupt'.

* The most mindblowing recent example (at least that I have subjected myself to) was Neonomicon - the heroine is gangraped over the course of two issues, then given to a Deep One to rape so that she could be the mother of Cthulhu. Yah.

[Gukumatz]

Stephen King.

He writes fantastic journies and I should have learned by now to leave the last chapters alone. But I haven't. Damnit.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Ephemera

Joss killing off his characters doesn't bother me. I actually like it, even though most of the characters he has killed have been some of my favorites. They're warriors. Warriors should occasionally die.

Tara was not a warrior, Athena damn it! Neither was Fred. They were both too sweet to die, and anyone who says different is a Welshman.

Wesley died a fine death, though.

[Lakai]

Aaron Sorkin.

When it comes to his political views, I think he's a pretentious ass-twat. Especially on "The Newsroom."

I enjoy his writing because it's about intelligent people who are unapologetically intelligent. When his characters are confronted with stupidity, they deal with it using Sorkin's elegant and concise dialogue. That never gets boring.

When it comes to The Newsroom, however, the dialogue that comes out from these characters almost always undercuts their message and intelligence. It's hard to take someone seriously when they think calling the Tea Party the American Taliban is an example of good news reporting. When I think of the stories that "The Newsroom" is so proud of, I imagine the ramblings of a bunch of neckbeards around a college coffee stand, rather than the reporting of respectable news organization.

I love his dialogue though, and will probably stick around for season two.

[Lemur866]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Tara was not a warrior, Athena damn it! Neither was Fred. They were both too sweet to die, and anyone who says different is a Welshman.

Wesley died a fine death, though.

Of course they didn't deserve to die. Their deaths were not heroic. They died pointlessly for no reason. And that's the point.

I don't know a single person in real life who died heroicly, or who died for reason, or who died trying to serve the greater good. Instead they got cancer and died. Or they got hit by a random car and died. Or they got old and lost their faculties and died.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

Of course they didn't deserve to die. Their deaths were not heroic. They died pointlessly for no reason. And that's the point.

I don't know a single person in real life who died heroicly, or who died for reason, or who died trying to serve the greater good. Instead they got cancer and died. Or they got hit by a random car and died. Or they got old and lost their faculties and died.

If I want real life, I'll read the newspaper, thankyouverymuch.

Whedon is capable of doing realistic deaths very well; we all know what episode I'm talking about. I'm merely bitching about his propensity to kill off likeable characters -- hell, characters far, far more likeable than his protagonists, in Tara & Fred's cases -- in ways that break my black little heart.

[Gangster Octopus]

Originally Posted by Daddypants

George Lucas, obviously.

My first thought.

[mbh]

Any spectacularly talented artist who becomes an addict, dies, and stops making great art.

Robert Downey, Jr. appears to have been clean for the past few years. I hope it sticks.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

Of course they didn't deserve to die. Their deaths were not heroic. They died pointlessly for no reason. And that's the point.

I don't know a single person in real life who died heroicly, or who died for reason, or who died trying to serve the greater good. Instead they got cancer and died. Or they got hit by a random car and died. Or they got old and lost their faculties and died.

And what does real life have to do with escapist fiction? The part about people dying for no reason is part of the reason real life sucks. You're a fiction writer doing fantasy. Make it better.

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally Posted by JSexton

I appreciate it when creators are willing to do hard things to beloved characters. It makes for good drama. And sometimes good people die for lousy reasons. That's life.

Agreed. My favorite Whedon death was Ballard's end on Dollhouse. He's on the fringe of a firefight, and he catches a bullet. Unlikely it was even aimed at him, and he never saw it coming. That's how people die, all the time.

[Ephemera]

Originally Posted by BigT

And what does real life have to do with escapist fiction? The part about people dying for no reason is part of the reason real life sucks. You're a fiction writer doing fantasy. Make it better.

I and plenty of others enjoy pathos in our fiction, and do not need or want a happy ending. Nor do we necessarily use it for escapism.

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Tara was not a warrior, Athena damn it! Neither was Fred. They were both too sweet to die, and anyone who says different is a Welshman.

Wesley died a fine death, though.

Fred's close enough to fit my definition. In the same episode she died in, she and Wesley torched a nest of demons. I don't remember any specifics of Tara being violent, but she knew the risks by being involved with the Scoobies.

[Rachellelogram]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

But man, she likes to grind her protagonist down. My favorite series of books by her is the Assassin trilogy, and I love Fitz up and down and sideways but my god, by the end of the trilogy, he has been through so goddamn much.

I have a similar relationship to Stephen King's protagonists. I like his stuff, but it's so goddamn depressing. I sometimes indulge in a stiff drink or 2 after finishing a book of his. Thinner, Dolores Claiborne, Gerald's Game... holymotherfuck. I still can't work up the courage to read It.

Maybe I'll tackle It this weekend... D:

[Battle Pope]

J. Michael Straczynski.

When Babylon 5 hit its stride it (S2 - S4) was some of the best SF TV ever but he seems to have screwed up almost all of the follow-up/expanded stories.

Seriously, killing of Marcus in that way........cold.

[digs]

Originally Posted by Gukumatz

Stephen King.

He writes fantastic journies and I should have learned by now to leave the last chapters alone. But I haven't. Damnit.

I always picture him (and Patricia Cornwell and Dean Koontz) getting to the last quarter of a book, and just sitting in front of their computer, crying "What now? Do I have to finish it? Can't I just give up?"

[Evil Captor]

John Norman. He had this brilliant idea -- combine softcore sex slavery porn with sword and sandal adventures set on another planet (ala Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom series). It worked, beautifully.

Then he had to go and advocate that the sex slavery was the result of the natural order between the sexes, that maledom/femsub was what human being are all about, and that women were naturally the slaves of men.

And thus what could have been some delightful, fun romps in a fantasy land became this heavy, ideological crap. Just because Norman couldn't figure out that his personal sexual predilections didn't necessarily make for a good basis for ordering human society.

Fortunately, I and about 50,000 others rewrite the Gor novels daily in Second Life Gor, so all was not lost.

(To be fair, William Moulton Marston, the creator of Wonder Woman, had the same problem ... both men seem unaccountably naive about sexual fantasy vs. reality by modern standards ... but Moulton's femdom/malesub and femdom/femsub fantasies were not so threatening, and MUCH better timed, socially speaking. Strange that these putatively adult, sophisticated men, one a professor of philosophy and the other a pyschologist, should have been so naive by modern standards. Products of their times, perhaps.)

[Cayuga]

Originally Posted by kaylasdad99

I love and hate Joss Whedon as well.

Why? Because Buffy the Vampire Slayer was perfect, just as it was. A single movie about an unusually-talented high school cheerleader, the mysterious stranger who trains her, the slacker/drifter who loves her, and the Master Vampire whom she has hunted through the ages.

There was no need to screw it up with a freakin' TV show

As I understand it, Whedon had no creative control over the movie and absolutely hated it. One article I read described him sitting in the back of the theatre and crying during the premiere. The series was his chance to tell the story the way he wanted it to be told.

(In addition, he'd originally planned it as a series, but no one would buy a series from a newbie, so he rewrote it as a movie.)

Now, I liked the movie too. But it doesn't sound as if you love and hate Whedon. It sounds as if you love the people who made the movie and hate Whedon.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[SecretaryofEvil]

Originally Posted by Anaamika

I know. I cried so much.

Ephemera, you're not wrong, in that warriors should occasionally die. However, the way Joss kills his characters feels like a cheat and a copout to me. "Let's see, we need to kill someone now." Feels like he picks out of a hat! I don't mind angst or drama or sadness, if it's properly justified. For example, if Mal had died, fighting the Operative, I feel it would have made more sense to the story. Instead he just does it for cheap tears. And it makes me resent him all the more.

I disagree because that's the way death works in real life. 20 year old dudes with pregnant wives are more likely to get hit by some artillery fire than tough mentor figures who want one last shot at redemption for past failings are to go down in a blaze of glory surrounded by slain foes.

By making death more "realistic" Whedon makes it easier to relate to his characters dealing with death. One of the reasons I love Buffy is that despite being set in a ridiculous fantasy world, it is incredibly easy to relate to the characters and their struggles.

I feel similarly about Harry Potter. On the other hand, Rowling is an artist I can both love and hate. I love her stories for many of the same reasons I love Whedon's, but on the other hand I hate them just a tiny little bit because Rowling overuses deus ex machina to resolve plots and she leaves some pretty giant glaring plot holes.

[Busy Scissors]

I'm going to roll out the Boss for this category - Bruce Springsteen.

Bruce invites superlatives that will be familiar to most people - he's a truly superb songwriter, also a great singer IMO for his material. He's a great performer and has had a fantastically durable and long-lived career. Artistically he's had his ups and downs but he's always tried to keep things moving forward with his music.
Never once taken the piss out of his audience that I've heard of - which is in dramatic counterpoint to his contemporaries who've been phoning it in for decades. He's a legend, basically, and is a touchstone for authenticity in a way that no other mainstream US artist can match AFAICT.

What I hate about Bruce is his appallingly shite taste in music. The E-street band are a paradoxical bunch - it's like listening to a pub band made up of technically outstanding musicians. Dishing up precisely flabby rock band arrangements that just suck the energy out of music. Sonic boredom incarnate. The sax it doth sux bad - sry Big Man (RIP).
I give the Boss some credit for just not giving a fuck about rock music - it's clear he hasn't listened to a contemporary rock record in 40 years, which is impressive in its own way. The results, however, speak for themselves. Bruce + guitar + just singing his songs and I'm feeling the love. Could anyone argue that Nebraska isn't his best album? An album of Bruce-rock, though, and i'm feeling the hate.

[boozilu]

J. Michael Straczynski.

When Babylon 5 hit its stride it (S2 - S4) was some of the best SF TV ever but he seems to have screwed up almost all of the follow-up/expanded stories.

Seriously, killing of Marcus in that way........cold.

Forget Marcus . . . . . . . .KOSH!!!!!!!

[Harborwolf]

Originally Posted by Loach

Whedon is an amateur. George R.R. Martin knows how to make his characters suffer.

Speaking of artists you love/hate. Martin has killed off so many damn characters that I'm honestly a bit numb to the whole thing. Even more so if they weren't actually killed and are revealed to still be alive later. The writing is solid and I enjoy the characters (when I'm not looking for their inevitable demise that is). He's just removed the impact of the death of a character. Like that issue of Radioactive Man where he and Fallout Boy get killed on every page.