Sons of Anarchy 9/11

[HazelNutCoffee]

I hope not. That would be too weird.

Maybe the forbidden nature of what happened with Otto turned her on or something. Oh well. I'm sure we'll find out more next week.

[azraiel]

Question for those commenting on the most recent episode: how long was it when you watched?

I ask because of this announcement. I watched the most recent episode (Ep9) on amazon Wednesday, and it was the usual 45 minute length.

I watched it again today and it was 53 minutes long. Differences include a scene in the graveyard with Nero and Gemma (absent in the shorter cut) and extended scenes at the cabin (with the club) and at the prison (with Tara and Otto).

In short, I wonder if we're all watching the same thing. I was mighty confused about Tara's final scene on initial watch. I was much less so after watching the extended cut.

ETA: length is without commercials.

[Amateur Barbarian]

Originally Posted by mhendo

The Latina woman who helps him run his business in the show is Smits' real-life partner Wanda de Jesus. They've been together over 25 years. I remember when she did a guest spot in an early season of NYPD Blue.

Ah, that explains a lot. The woman can't act her way out of a paper bag - pompous, stiff, bitchy, delivers lines like she learned them phonetically.

She did a turn back in B5 and was hilariously bad; too bad being in the aura of such a gifted actor/partner hasn't rubbed off on her in all that time.

Which, neither here nor there, we were slack-jawed at realizing a minor but compelling character late in Season 3 of B5 was none other than Brian Cranston.

[The Second Stone]

I thought that she did really well as the madam/half-sister.

[Amateur Barbarian]

Originally Posted by The Second Stone

I thought that she did really well as the madam/half-sister.

Well, she was well cast for the role. But I kept seeing her lock her jaw and glare instead of act... that being her entire range.

[The Second Stone]

It nailed that part.

Some of the best acting I have ever seen was Agent Stahl from the first few seasons.

[Bambro]

I'm kinda digging the "I got this" theme going on this season. You hear that and you know shit is about to go down.

So what are your thoughts on Tara being an accessory to murder? Would she really be charged in real life with that? I admit to being law ignorant, so I don't know for sure. I had assumed it would have had to have been intentional/premeditated. Obviously Otto had it planned out, but Tara was just a patzy in the whole thing.

[azraiel]

Originally Posted by Bambro

So what are your thoughts on Tara being an accessory to murder? Would she really be charged in real life with that? I admit to being law ignorant, so I don't know for sure. I had assumed it would have had to have been intentional/premeditated. Obviously Otto had it planned out, but Tara was just a patzy in the whole thing.

I am also wholly ignorant of the law.

Dramatically, the concern is that she intentionally committed an illegal act that precipitated murder. That is: she knew the crucifix was contraband and brought it into the prison anyway, committing a felony. She gave the crucifix to Otto knowing it was contraband, perhaps also a felony. Otto used the contraband to commit murder (kinda certain that's a felony). It's not that she knew Otto's intent, but that she willingly committed a felony that precipitated another felony. Hence the 'accessory' charge.

Again, IANAL. Then again, fuck lawyers. This is a soap opera.

[voltaire]

IANAL, either, but:

Intent is a biggie, and she can't be proven to have intent to help him kill someone. All she really has to say is that he asked her for a crucifix so he could pray, and since he was restrained, she saw no problem with it. She wasn't the one who released his restraints, and since she wasn't done with him, wasn't expecting anyone else to do so. He could have just as easily grabbed any other loose object in that room when his restraints were released, or else just used his bare hands. It's nowhere near entirely her fault that he killed someone with such lax security precautions.

I'd think the worst that would realistically happen is that she'd no longer be allowed in the prison. The show might not go the realistic way, though.

[Typo Negative]

I'm a little tired (a little??) of the need for concrete proof of Clay's guilt. If someone put a bullet in his head 2 seasons ago, everyone's lives would be better.

[drastic_quench]

Originally Posted by Typo Negative

I'm a little tired (a little??) of the need for concrete proof of Clay's guilt. If someone put a bullet in his head 2 seasons ago, everyone's lives would be better.

I think this episode reflected that sentiment from the fanbase. From Pope to Jax to Juice, the entire theme was soon.

Not soon enough, in my book.

[The Second Stone]

Soon. That gets back to Hamlet on bikes. Hamlet wants a ghost to give him proof. He dawdles and waits. It all goes to shit.

Jax and Chibbs kill the mook who was the tool that killed Opie, but Jax cozies up to Pope, the guy who ordered it, who informed Jax he ordered it before it happened and crowed about it afterwards.

[Typo Negative]

Originally Posted by The Second Stone

Jax and Chibbs kill the mook who was the tool that killed Opie, but Jax cozies up to Pope, the guy who ordered it, who informed Jax he ordered it before it happened and crowed about it afterwards.

But you know Jax is planning on killing him. He will NOT give up Tig.

[The Second Stone]

I'd give up Tig. And Pope ought to know damn well that he is targeted.

[HazelNutCoffee]

I think Jax killed the big dude not because he killed Op per se, but because he took so much pleasure in doing so. He might have let him live if the dude had been regretful about it, or even neutral, but he was pretty happy about beating Op to death. Maybe that's harder to forgive than Pope's cold-blooded decision.

Also I kind of hope Jax gives up Tig.

[azraiel]

Originally Posted by voltaire

IANAL, either, but:

Intent is a biggie, and she can't be proven to have intent to help him kill someone. All she really has to say is that he asked her for a crucifix so he could pray, and since he was restrained, she saw no problem with it. She wasn't the one who released his restraints, and since she wasn't done with him, wasn't expecting anyone else to do so. He could have just as easily grabbed any other loose object in that room when his restraints were released, or else just used his bare hands. It's nowhere near entirely her fault that he killed someone with such lax security precautions.

I'd think the worst that would realistically happen is that she'd no longer be allowed in the prison. The show might not go the realistic way, though.

Going to have to disagree. It doesn't matter what her intent was concerning the homicide. What matters is her intent regarding the felony she committed. Since she intentionally committed a felony that precipitated a death, she is guilty of felony murder. As alluded to in the link, Tara might be on the hook for felony murder if it was Otto killed in the altercation, even if a guard lawfully shot him.

Again, IANAL. But I have read enough news accounts of a get-away driver (who never left the car) charged with murder when someone dies during a robbery to know that it's a real thing in the US.

[Meatros]

Originally Posted by HazelNutCoffee

I think Jax killed the big dude not because he killed Op per se, but because he took so much pleasure in doing so. He might have let him live if the dude had been regretful about it, or even neutral, but he was pretty happy about beating Op to death. Maybe that's harder to forgive than Pope's cold-blooded decision.

Also I kind of hope Jax gives up Tig.

I'm thinking that Jax somehow stages a Tig v. Pope fight and then Jax takes out Tig, pockets the 5 million as his escape plan.

[Zeldar]

True fans, of which I count myself, might enjoy discussing points raised in 'Sons of Anarchy': Making a case for TV violence

As for Tig's future, I can only hope for Kim Coates's sake that Pope is the one who gets his Final Reward, by fire maybe.

Recently I rewatched Open Range (2003) where Coates meets an unglamorous end to one of his typical roles as a baddie with few if any redeeming qualities.

But I like Tig and feel his karma deserves a break. With duplicity and lying the keywords in the script-writing department, I sense that Sutter won't give another Opie-styled departure to a major character this season. Maybe later. But Pope is another incarnation of the Stahl model of evil-incarnate that needs to be replaced.

[Bambro]

I am looking for a link to possibly corroborate this a little, but the scuttlebutt that I've heard about last night's episode is that the guy who beat the shit out of Otto and was following Tara may be John Teller.

That would be some wild and crazy shit.

[Bambro]

Ehhh....never mind.

http://screencrush.com/sons-of-anarc...5-donal-logue/

Appearing in the final three installments, Logue will play “brilliant and dangerous” U.S. Marshal Lee Toric, who is forced into retirement because of his history of violence.

I think he's going to have some sort of connection to the nurse that Otto killed. Maybe her husband or brother.

[ryan]

Well the actors are brother and sister...

[Bambro]

Although I wish like hell he had died last night, I was smiling ear to fucking ear while Happy was blacking out Clay's reapers last night.

[drastic_quench]

Can anyone ID the song from the end of S05E12? It contains the phrases "well I came to get it all" "don't go down town" and "Jesus watch over me" -- no google results.

[Bob Ducca]

Originally Posted by drastic_quench

Can anyone ID the song from the end of S05E12? It contains the phrases "well I came to get it all" "don't go down town" and "Jesus watch over me" -- no google results.

Over in the Hitfix recap comments, they ID it as "The Whistler" by The White Buffalo.

[drastic_quench]

Thanks.

[andrewbub]

on the topic of music, the show consistently has the worst selection of music out of any tv show i've watched. i really do enjoy the show though. i really thought the scene towards the end with clay and tig at the barn was going to be both of their deaths.

[MeanJoe]

Man-oh-man do I hope Jax has an out for Tig. I love that psychotic little pervert and don't want to see him go.

[Zeldar]

Originally Posted by MeanJoe

Man-oh-man do I hope Jax has an out for Tig. I love that psychotic little pervert and don't want to see him go.

Right there with you. In fact, all the guys still around are like dear friends. Tig's my favorite, then Chibs. And I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop on Juice.

After losing Opie in that horrible fashion, I can't see Sutter doing Tig, too. Just how they solve the Pope problem will be the highlight of the season, I predict.

I have a hunch the enforcer for Pope (forgetting his name at the moment) may want to step up after 17 years and claim his place in the organization. Just a thought.

[SykoSkotty]

I'm thinking the out for Tig is to head to Belfast with Clay, then Jax will lie to Pope and say that Tig's dead.

[azraiel]

Originally Posted by Zeldar

I have a hunch the enforcer for Pope (forgetting his name at the moment) may want to step up after 17 years and claim his place in the organization. Just a thought.

I think Jax shares your hunch. His dialog with August Marks and the look on Marks' face afterwards suggest strongly to me that Jax is going to try to leverage Marks against Pope.

[Typo Negative]

Originally Posted by azraiel

I think Jax shares your hunch. His dialog with August Marks and the look on Marks' face afterwards suggest strongly to me that Jax is going to try to leverage Marks against Pope.

That is Tig's out. Jax has to kill Pope. And Pope has to know this, so it will be tricky. They may be expecting this play.

[Enright3]

Originally Posted by SykoSkotty

I'm thinking the out for Tig is to head to Belfast with Clay, then Jax will lie to Pope and say that Tig's dead.

Then Pope would likely kill Jax or demand someone else's head.

I'm thinking they're going to cut it close, but find a way to kill Pope. If Jax had to kill the prisoner who killed Opie, the guard who set up killing Opie, he's certainly going to go after the man that ordered Opie to be killed.

With the fail-safe bounty I'm thinking Tig should be the one that kills Pope. Since he's getting his life back he should be the one to take the risk.

[Hockey Monkey]

Anybody catch the Sons crossover on Raising Hope?

And Dave Navarro on last week? I watch Ink Master just so I can ogle Dave Navarro. He's so dirty hot. *tounge lolling*

[voltaire]

Originally Posted by Hockey Monkey

And Dave Navarro on last week?

He was on tonight's ep, too. I was wondering if they'd work in a Jane's Addiction song, and yup, the end song sure did sound like Perry Farrell singing a cover of "Sympathy for the Devil."

[Hockey Monkey]

I'm watching tonight's ep. right now.

Lot's of shit going down tonight!

[HazelNutCoffee]

AHHH when is Gemma going to get what's coming to her?

[D_Odds]

Originally Posted by Hockey Monkey

Anybody catch the Sons crossover on Raising Hope?

I thought that whole scene was great. Best show on FOX right now.

[HazelNutCoffee]

I have to add that I was really annoyed with the Korean van placed next to the dead dogs, implying that they were going to cart them away and use them for food. It was so deliberate and so unnecessary. The name of the company sounded so fake as well, literally "Korean Distributors: Food and Drink." WTF? I thought we were past these erroneous racial stereotypes.

[Bambro]

Otto is fucking HARDCORE!

This finale was great. Last season was kind of a let down as far as the finale went, but they really made up for it last night IMO.

[Zeldar]

While the Tig-Pope encounter went just the way I had hoped it would, the other events were something of a surprise. Sutter has left himself a lot of wiggle room for how the next season can go.

One of the main things about this show is how so much is underplayed and undershown. Take the thing with Bobby removing his VP tag from his cut. Not overly dramatized, but enough to make you wonder where he will fit in next season. I was almost ready to see him commit suicide, but that would have been way out of character.

My biggest hope for next year is a lot more of Donal Logue. Ever since the untimely demise of Terriers I have been wanting to see some more Logue. Maybe he can be the featured nemesis or at least a major player. It would appear there's more to Smits's character as well. Can Otto still be the menace he has been, or is that the end of that character? And Juice lives to see another episode.

The women's roles look to be expanding and the tension, at least for a while, may focus more action on them.

All together it was a well-done finale.

[Hockey Monkey]

Just saw the music guide online - Katey Sagal and the Forest Rangers sang To Sir With Love. Listening to it again, you can hear it's her voice. I thought it was a beautifully done cover when I first heard it. I have even more respect for Sagal now.

Link to page.

[SykoSkotty]

I'm none too thrilled with the finale. I thought it left way too much undecided. My thoughts:

1. Gemma overhearing Jax and Jimmy Smits. She was afraid they'd leave so she ratted on Tara? So now Tara's in jail and Jax is going to kill Gemma when he finds out, right? Now that Tara's been arrested, that job in Oregon is gone (I would think) so when / if Tara gets out, she's going to tell Jax about Gemma. It seems like Gemma could've found a much better way to keep her grandsons around.

2. Otto biting his tongue off. Seriously, what was the point?? He can't talk now......but he sure as shit can WRITE!! I hate what they did here, the storyline is so bogus. He could just write up a confession and sign it, which it what you usually see criminals so when they confess anyway.

3. When Gemma lied to the cops about Clay's whereabouts, he didn't say a word. No denial, nothing. What about Juice? He was right there, and Clay didn't ask him to vouch for him? That makes zero sense to me.

4. The very end when Gemma puts her hand on Jax. Totally hokey. It was just like last years season finale when Tara did the same thing, and then they flashed back to the picture of John Teller with Gemma......so what now.....Gemma's supposed to be Jax's old lady? I know they weren't implying that but I think it could've been done so much better.

I'm really starting to believe this show has jumped the shark, only they used a motorcycle instead of water skis.

[MeanJoe]

Originally Posted by SykoSkotty

I'm none too thrilled with the finale. I thought it left way too much undecided. My thoughts:

1. Gemma overhearing Jax and Jimmy Smits. She was afraid they'd leave so she ratted on Tara? So now Tara's in jail and Jax is going to kill Gemma when he finds out, right? Now that Tara's been arrested, that job in Oregon is gone (I would think) so when / if Tara gets out, she's going to tell Jax about Gemma. It seems like Gemma could've found a much better way to keep her grandsons around.

2. Otto biting his tongue off. Seriously, what was the point?? He can't talk now......but he sure as shit can WRITE!! I hate what they did here, the storyline is so bogus. He could just write up a confession and sign it, which it what you usually see criminals so when they confess anyway.

3. When Gemma lied to the cops about Clay's whereabouts, he didn't say a word. No denial, nothing. What about Juice? He was right there, and Clay didn't ask him to vouch for him? That makes zero sense to me.

4. The very end when Gemma puts her hand on Jax. Totally hokey. It was just like last years season finale when Tara did the same thing, and then they flashed back to the picture of John Teller with Gemma......so what now.....Gemma's supposed to be Jax's old lady? I know they weren't implying that but I think it could've been done so much better.

I'm really starting to believe this show has jumped the shark, only they used a motorcycle instead of water skis.

1. Tara can tell Jax at any point, there is no need to wait until she gets out. I'm not 100% sold that Gemma is the one behind this. I suspect this is the writers setting us up.
2. I read that as a "I'm far more bad-ass and harder than you" shot at the former U.S. Marshal.
3. Clay didn't say anything because in that moment he realized he had been completely and totally outplayed. He realized even his wife was in on the payback he was due for all his bad deeds.
4. I think that imagery was very intentional. Gemma/Teller, last season with Jax and Tara, and now Jax and Gemma. History repeats itself, you never leave the life/club, the futility of trying to escape.

[azraiel]

Originally Posted by MeanJoe

[4]I think that imagery was very intentional. Gemma/Teller, last season with Jax and Tara, and now Jax and Gemma. History repeats itself, you never leave the life/club, the futility of trying to escape.

Even more--the last image was of Jax, Gemma, and Abel. Gemma was resting a hand on both Jax and Abel. Couple that with Tara's comment about the boys being doomed to repeat Jax and Tara's mistakes if they stay in Charming, and you have a foreboding of the future.

[snailboy]

Originally Posted by SykoSkotty

2. Otto biting his tongue off. Seriously, what was the point?? He can't talk now......but he sure as shit can WRITE!! I hate what they did here, the storyline is so bogus. He could just write up a confession and sign it, which it what you usually see criminals so when they confess anyway.

Otto is effectively blind, so he'd have trouble writing as well.

[SykoSkotty]

Originally Posted by snailboy

Otto is effectively blind, so he'd have trouble writing as well.

Nah, sorry, you gotta do better than that. He could still sign a confession. And if he's so blind, then his aim was pretty damn good when he threw his tongue at the wall.....

[drastic_quench]

Biting the his tongue off and Gemma standing with Jax are both symbolic. You can't judge those things literally as that's not how they're clearly meant to be interpreted.

[The Second Stone]

Finally saw it last night.

Did no one else notice that Nero was going to blow his own brains out with the sawed-off shotgun on the nightstand after taking off his rings and going to be alone?

[Oogly Woogly]

Otto is nuts. He would probably stab himself in the hand with the pencil if they tried to get him to write a confession. Either that or he would chew off his fingers.

I'm glad Tig was saved. I am probably the only one who thinks this but his death would have bothered me more than Opie's did.

[Typo Negative]

Originally Posted by SykoSkotty

Nah, sorry, you gotta do better than that. He could still sign a confession. And if he's so blind, then his aim was pretty damn good when he threw his tongue at the wall.....

That confession could easily be challenged on a number of grounds. He didn't know what he was signing because he couldn't read it. He couldn't give a verbal acknowledgment because he had no tongue. And the biggy.......biting off your own tongue and throwing it at a window might be seen as sign that a person is a little mentally unbalanced. His confession, even if he could read and sign it, would be worthless.