The coldest a human can tolerate for lengthy periods

[snailboy]

I'm wondering how cold it can get and people who are acclimated to it and prepared can go outside for at least, say, a half hour at a time. They can be wearing any clothing that one would typically wear in such conditions. It does have to be something that's done regularly though, not a one-off case where someone did it to set a record or survived a plane crash or such. I see that the coldest town on Earth is Oymyakon, Russia, but there's probably a point at which they quit going outside except very briefly.

I saw previous threads about this but they required that the person be naked. I'm just looking at typical circumstances.

[Telemark]

Folks in northern Alaska go out regularly when it's -40 to -50 F for extended periods. If they didn't they wouldn't be able to get much done in the winter when it can remain at those temps for a week or more.

[dracoi]

People can spend whole days outside in sub-zero temperatures with clothing that one would "typically wear" in sub-zero temperatures.

If you are willing to go so far as to say that a space suit meets that definition for typical clothing while walking on the moon, then there's no temperature so low that humans can't survive it for at least half an hour in our typical clothing.

Maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean, though.

[Annie-Xmas]

I lived in Bemidji, Minnesota for three years, where the winter temperatures were 20 to 40 below, with wind chills of 40 to 80 below for weeks on end. We got along outside with sweatshirt, heavy coat, hats, scarf, mittens, pants, two pair socks and sneakers for an hour or two will no ill effects.

[snailboy]

Originally Posted by dracoi

If you are willing to go so far as to say that a space suit meets that definition for typical clothing while walking on the moon, then there's no temperature so low that humans can't survive it for at least half an hour in our typical clothing.

I almost specifically said that space suits are not allowed. By typical clothing, I mean something you'd likely find in someone's closet in a cold place on Earth: a parka, ski suit, etc. It must be something a typical person can afford.

What I'm asking is at what temperature, if any, does the temperature prevent people in Oymyakon, Barrow, Alert, McMurdo, etc, from spending more than a few minutes outside. I find it hard to picture someone going for a walk or chopping firewood when it's -80 F but I'm from Texas so I don't know much about it.

[This_Just_In...]

Read about some early polar explorers to see what the body can endure. For starters check out "The Worst Journey in the World" by Apsley Cherry-Garrard.

From Wiki:"With Wilson and Lieutenant Henry 'Birdie' Bowers, Cherry made a trip to Cape Crozier in July 1911 during the austral winter in order to secure an unhatched Emperor penguin egg. Cherry suffered from high degree myopia, seeing little without the spectacles that he could not wear while sledging. In almost total darkness, and with temperatures ranging from −40 °F (−40 °C) to −77.5 °F (−60.8 °C), they man-hauled their sledge 60 miles (97 km) from Scott's base at Cape Evans to the far side of Ross Island. Frozen and exhausted, they reached their goal only to be pinned down by a blizzard. Their tent was ripped away and carried off by the wind, leaving the men in their sleeping bags under a thickening drift of snow, singing hymns above the sounds of the storm. When the winds subsided however, by great fortune they found their tent lodged nearby in rocks. Cherry-Garrard suffered such cold that he shattered most of his teeth due to chattering in the frigid temperatures. Having successfully collected three eggs and desperately exhausted they began their return journey. Only progressing a mile and a half some days, they eventually arrived back at Cape Evans on 1 August 1911."

[purplehorseshoe]

"... shattered most of his teeth due to chattering... "

[Gray Ghost]

There's always the 300 Club. (Scroll down to Winter Culture) FTA:

Perhaps the most uniquely Antarctican winter ritual (apart from the Polar Plunge) is joining the 200 or 300 Club. In McMurdo, unfortunately (!) it only gets cold enough to have a 200 club. To join the club, people must subject themselves to a 200° F change in temperature. They wait for a really cold night (say, -40° F), then crank up the sauna. Once they're good and cooked, they run outside and dash, naked and steaming, around the building. Winter- overs at South Pole join the 300 club in the same way--from a 200° F sauna to -100° F outside. They try to dash the 100 yards or so to the ceremonial pole and back without incurring frostbite on essential reproductory equipment. Not all are successful.

Popular Mechanics had an issue on construction workers building the new Amundsen Scott Station at the South Pole, and what it was like to work outside in those conditions. I forget what the outside temps were like, but -50 F and worse comes to mind.

This scientist for NOAA claims the average temp at the South Pole is -40. (He then claims extreme temps of -140F, so I'm not sure how much credence to give the rest of his account.) Maybe he's talking about wind chill?

[Chefguy]

Born/raised in Alaska here. When you say "clothes that one would typically wear in such conditions", that covers a wide range. In extreme cold (say 50-60 below), I'd wear something much different than at zero. For an extended period in that kind of cold, I'd wear long johns, quilted pants, arctic mittens, some layered top-wear, a heavy down parka, ski mask and bunny boots with wool socks. As long as you don't stay still for a long time, you can stay out all day.

[snailboy]

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost

There's always the 300 Club.

I read about that but that's discounted because they're only in it for a few minutes and because it's similar to going for a record, not just a normal activity.

Originally Posted by Chefguy

Born/raised in Alaska here. When you say "clothes that one would typically wear in such conditions", that covers a wide range. In extreme cold (say 50-60 below), I'd wear something much different than at zero. For an extended period in that kind of cold, I'd wear long johns, quilted pants, arctic mittens, some layered top-wear, a heavy down parka, ski mask and bunny boots with wool socks. As long as you don't stay still for a long time, you can stay out all day.

So -60 is the coldest you'd go out in? The clothing requirement is meant to exclude space suits and other extraordinary "clothing" that you wouldn't see someone walking around Anchorage wearing. I'm looking more for what people commonly go out in, not what they are capable of surviving in extraordinary circumstances with extraordinary gear.

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by snailboy

I read about that but that's discounted because they're only in it for a few minutes and because it's similar to going for a record, not just a normal activity.



So -60 is the coldest you'd go out in? The clothing requirement is meant to exclude space suits and other extraordinary "clothing" that you wouldn't see someone walking around Anchorage wearing. I'm looking more for what people commonly go out in, not what they are capable of surviving in extraordinary circumstances with extraordinary gear.

Commonly go out in what? Summer sun? You're not being terribly clear.

[Procrustus]

I was married for 10 years to a really cold woman.

[snailboy]

Originally Posted by Chefguy

Commonly go out in what? Summer sun? You're not being terribly clear.

Go outside. I'm not sure what's unclear.

[sco3tt]

Originally Posted by This_Just_In...

"Having successfully collected three eggs and desperately exhausted they began their return journey. Only progressing a mile and a half some days, they eventually arrived back at Cape Evans on 1 August 1911."

It must have been one kick-ass omelette to be worth all that trouble.

[astro]

Re "a human" there are people who can control their metabolisms and who can withstand absolutely insane levels of cold that would quickly kill ordinary people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by snailboy

Go outside. I'm not sure what's unclear.

Go outside in winter wearing summer clothes? Winter clothes? "Normal" clothing depends on the weather, not the other way around. "Normal" clothing at -60F is as I described it above. Are you asking how long someone can stay out at extremely low temps wearing jeans and a t-shirt?

[FuzzyOgre]

I was outside for 27 hours at around -30 to -40(it varied, obviously, because of night fall). We were X-raying pipe at an oil lease, examining them for hairline fractures.

The nature of the work was such that we were busy, but not really active, standing on one place for long minutes.

When we began I had already been up for a full day, since that was my first day on the job. The nature of the work is that you are on call day and night. I was dressed in winterized coveralls, gloves, winter boots, and a knit balaclava.

My hands and feet were fairly frost bitten most of that time, because I was standing in one place and handling ice cold steel pipe. Even with gloves on, that will leach the warmth out of you. Being dead tired didnt help either.

Taking rest breaks did not make any sense(to my boss), but neither did continuing to completion(to me). We shoved unheated(but not frozen) food in our mouths every few hours and went back at it.

Except for that, it was completely sustainable. I could have stayed outside for days if I had been active enough, was able to gain rest, and if I had enough to eat. It doesnt have to be hot food, but of course that helps.

Finally I threw a bit of a fit, refused to continue to work, and we went a service camp. We ate a hot meal, slept 7 hours or so(the best sleep ever), and returned to finish in the morning. My boss was pissed off because he was paid by the job, and the sooner we finished, the sooner he could accept more work.

He would have worked 30-40 hours to finish(and thats after we drove to the site), then drove home, hoping someone else would call. If he had to endure down time, then he'd sleep.

I quit. I'm sure that facilitated his work ethic.

[al27052]

Google "Wim Hof".

It's that simple.

[JackieLikesVariety]

chefguy answered your question: he described typical clothing to wear when it's 50 degrees below zero and that you can stay out all day.

[snailboy]

Originally Posted by Chefguy

Go outside in winter wearing summer clothes? Winter clothes? "Normal" clothing depends on the weather, not the other way around. "Normal" clothing at -60F is as I described it above. Are you asking how long someone can stay out at extremely low temps wearing jeans and a t-shirt?

No. Normal clothing means clothing that one would normally wear under those conditions, ie a parka, thermal underwear, but not something you have to get from NASA.

Originally Posted by JackieLikesVariety

chefguy answered your question: he described typical clothing to wear when it's 50 degrees below zero and that you can stay out all day.

That doesn't answer my question but just tells me that the limit is below that.

To make the question a bit more specific, if you really wanted to walk 30 minutes to get somewhere, were acclimated to the climate, had typical polar climate clothing (no spacesuit), and there are no other adverse weather conditions like high winds or snow, at what point do even several layers of clothing fail to keep it from being very unpleasant and/or unsafe.

[FuzzyOgre]

Originally Posted by snailboy

No. Normal clothing means clothing that one would normally wear under those conditions, ie a parka, thermal underwear, but not something you have to get from NASA.



That doesn't answer my question but just tells me that the limit is below that.

To make the question a bit more specific, if you really wanted to walk 30 minutes to get somewhere, were acclimated to the climate, had typical polar climate clothing (no spacesuit), and there are no other adverse weather conditions like high winds or snow, at what point do even several layers of clothing fail to keep it from being very unpleasant and/or unsafe.

Go back and read my response: The answer is all day, every day, for weeks or months on end. As long as you are active, well fed, rested and hydrated, you can basically go all winter. You can be comfortable.

The danger point comes when those points are not maintained.

The situation is a little different near the ocean, as you have to stay dry. For work we would keep several sets of gloves and boot liners and trade them out as they moistened from sweat. We had spare clothes too, just in case.

It really comes down to food and rest. If you dont have enough energy, your body cannot maintain its core temperature, and you will get hypothermia.

[coremelt]

Originally Posted by snailboy

at what point do even several layers of clothing fail to keep it from being very unpleasant and/or unsafe.

I'm going to say -45 celsius and below as the point where your standard gear that you can buy an any outdoor trekking shop won't do and you need specialized gear.

-40 Celsius is the coldest ever recorded at Anchorage, fits what people say above. Below that you get serious problems with any exposed skin, any amount of air breathed in, even very experienced and well equipped teams report injuries and fatalities when temperatures go much below -40 C. Read the preparations for the Ranulph Fiennes Winter South Pole trek attempt.

-60 celsius is the average winter temperature at the south pole, -80 celsius is the lowest recorded anywhere (at Vostok). So you can't get really very much colder on the planet.

[t-bonham@scc.net]

Originally Posted by snailboy

NTo make the question a bit more specific, if you really wanted to walk 30 minutes to get somewhere,

Note that in this kind of weather, you wouldn't really do that. Places that far away you would drive to get to (automobile, snowmobile, dogsled, etc.) -- you wouldn't walk. Most of the communities are small enough that you can walk anywhere in town in less than a half hour. To walk that long, you'd have to be walking out in the open, unpopulated country -- that's not a smart thing to do.

[snailboy]

Originally Posted by FuzzyOgre

Go back and read my response: The answer is all day, every day, for weeks or months on end.

The question was what's the lowest temperature that one can be safely exposed to for at least half an hour under the given circumstances. How is "all day" an answer to that?

Originally Posted by coremelt

I'm going to say -45 celsius and below as the point where your standard gear that you can buy an any outdoor trekking shop won't do and you need specialized gear.

-40 Celsius is the coldest ever recorded at Anchorage, fits what people say above. Below that you get serious problems with any exposed skin, any amount of air breathed in, even very experienced and well equipped teams report injuries and fatalities when temperatures go much below -40 C. Read the preparations for the Ranulph Fiennes Winter South Pole trek attempt.

-60 celsius is the average winter temperature at the south pole, -80 celsius is the lowest recorded anywhere (at Vostok). So you can't get really very much colder on the planet.

Now that's just the kind of answer I was looking for. So you say -45 C is the minimum practical limit for normal gear. Let me ask about this story then. The guy walks for hours in -75 F weather. Granted he did end up dying but only when he fell in water. Was he just lucky up to that point, is the story unrealistic, or what? What do you make of it?

Originally Posted by t-bonham@scc.net

Note that in this kind of weather, you wouldn't really do that. Places that far away you would drive to get to (automobile, snowmobile, dogsled, etc.) -- you wouldn't walk. Most of the communities are small enough that you can walk anywhere in town in less than a half hour. To walk that long, you'd have to be walking out in the open, unpopulated country -- that's not a smart thing to do.

Well okay, let's say he is walking in open country like in the above story but ignore the danger of falling in water.

[coremelt]

Originally Posted by snailboy

The guy walks for hours in -75 F weather.

Well in the story it's claimed " The old-timer had been very serious in laying down the law that no man must travel alone in the Klondike after fifty below".. which is approx -45 celsius. Which is the limit I claimed you would need extraordinary gear and precautions.

Granted he did end up dying

Kind of proves the point.

[FluffyBob]

Just wanted to jump in and say a space suit is going to be pretty crappy in significant terrestrial cold.

Space suits are designed to get rid of body heat not keep it in.

[Kenm]

Wind chill, mentioned by a couple of posters, is important to keep in mind.

The link goes to a Wikipedia article with a wind-chill table in Fahrenheit degrees. Clicking on it will enlarge it.

The article also discusses discrepencies in wind-chill calculations.

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by Kenm

Wind chill, mentioned by a couple of posters, is important to keep in mind.

At those temperatures you have no exposed skin anyway so it's not a major part of the equation.

[Kenm]

Originally Posted by Telemark

At those temperatures you have no exposed skin anyway so it's not a major part of the equation.

What temperatures do you mean? All of them?

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by Kenm

What temperatures do you mean? All of them?

Anything under 20 below F you don't really want any skin exposed no matter what the wind speed. So it doesn't have much impact on the coldest temps humans can tolerate with the proper clothing.

[FuzzyOgre]

Originally Posted by snailboy

The question was what's the lowest temperature that one can be safely exposed to for at least half an hour under the given circumstances. How is "all day" an answer to that?

It is an answer in the sense that there is realistically no where on the surface of earth where it is so cold that you couldnt endure 30 minutes dressed to your specifications.

You'll note that I specified that we changed our clothes at -40. If I could endure -40 in a t-shirt and jeans for a minute (remove gloves/mask/snow suit, take off sweaty hooded shirt, put new shirt on, snow suit, new mask, new gloves), then you could endure -80 for 30 minutes dressed as I was.

You mentioned comfort. I mentioned sweating at -40. Your gloves and boots eventually become saturated and your body cant keep that moisture warm. So your gloves start to freeze and pretty soon you have ice very close to your skin.

In my case I was doing dexterous work handing very cold objects. My hands got cold. If I had just been walking, that could be staved off pretty much indefinitely.

The purpose of clothing -for any season- is to regulate your energy consumption, so that your bodies mechanisms can maintain you at a optimal(and hopefully comfortable) temperature. It is when that consumption is too high that you feel cold.

Case in point: How long can you comfortably endure a cold rainy day while naked? Depends on what you are doing. When will it kill you? When you starve to death.

I have some data points for you:

Winter joggers. I'm sure someone will chip in that its actually quite nice to run when its just below freezing. Other than slippery ice, you can be quite comfortable. They dress with mobility in mind. Activity keeps them warm.

Dog sledders: We dressed about equivalent to these race officials at 2:00 minutes. http://youtu.be/UUyXKAKCpkE?t=2m. They might have endured hours of that weather. Heh. Those dogs sure were anxious to start running again.

Mountain climbers: They camp on Everest overnight in little tents, making their final push at dawn. Their little heaters dont warm them that much. They do have pretty fancy clothes, but you cannot wear a survival suit and climb mountains.

Polar swimmers! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MpaSrJeEMs See how scantly dressed they are?

A quote from http://polarplunge.com/View/Page/FAQs#3:

How does the Plunge occur?
Just prior to the actual Plunge, all the plungers enter the fenced in plunger-only area. Our water rescue dive team supervisor then briefs everyone on how to plunge safely. After the briefing, our Special Olympics athletes will be the first to Plunge. For their protection, we ask that everyone else hold back until they are safely out of the water. Then, we’ll signal to the rest of the crowd that it’s time to plunge. How far out you go and how long you stay in are up to you, as long as you are following the direction of the EMS team. Eventually, the dive team will escort the remaining plungers out of the water (there are always some who try to stay in the longest!).

How long do you think some of those people have stand, dressed like that, waiting their turn? Well, if you have 200 plungers, and they each stay in 5 seconds, that is 500 seconds or 8.3 minutes(two people at a time), plus their run to the pool, plus the time of the briefing(a minute?), plus any complications like someone needing help getting out.

Its conceivable that someone could end up standing there in an bikini for 10 minutes or more.

Originally Posted by snailboy

The question was what's the lowest temperature that one can be safely exposed to for at least half an hour under the given circumstances. How is "all day" an answer to that?

Cold weather doesnt cause immediate medical distress. Even hypothermia doesnt kill you in 30 minutes.

[Molesworth 2]

Sir Ranulph Fiennes is going to try to cross the Antarctic continent on foot during the next southern winter, apparently. Temperatures during the trip are expected to consistently get down to around -60F.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19609293

I've read some of his books, and I think the guy is an absolute beast, but he's 68 years old now and I highly doubt that he'll succeed, even though he won't actually be manhauling his own supplies this time.

Apparently he and one other guy will only have to pull behind their skis a radar unit designed to detect upcoming crevasses. All of their tents and fuel, food, etc will be pulled by motorised vehicles that will be following them. I still don't think that it will end well.

Mind you, if I was a sadistic mad scientist I'd like to make a few clones of Henry "Birdie" Bowers from Scott's party a century ago, and see what a bunch of them could achieve in extremely cold conditions. During the six week long "Worst Journey in the World", where he and two others gathered Emperor penguin eggs during the Antarctic winter, he didn't even have any problems sleeping when it was -60F. When Scott's party was approaching the South Pole the five of them only had four pairs of skis, so Bowers just went on foot.

Read up on him. That guy was an absolute f***ing freak of nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Robertson_Bowers

[FuzzyOgre]

Originally Posted by Molesworth 2

Read up on him. That guy was an absolute f***ing freak of nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Robertson_Bowers

Incredible human being!

But I'll one up you, twice. Read up on "The mad trapper of Rat River". Find the book(its a short but good read) if you can.

Harder to find is stuff on Jerry Potts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Potts The wikipedia reference doesnt discuss him unerringly finding a destination in a snow storm.

[snailboy]

Originally Posted by FuzzyOgre

It is an answer in the sense that there is realistically no where on the surface of earth where it is so cold that you couldnt endure 30 minutes dressed to your specifications.

A very informative post, but just to be sure, you're saying that even at the South Pole when it's -120 F, one could dress up in the type of clothing you'd expect someone at the South Pole to have, go for at least a 30 minute walk around the base (assuming the weather is otherwise nice), and return with no health problems? That's very surprising to me if so.

[Baron Greenback]

Originally Posted by snailboy

A very informative post, but just to be sure, you're saying that even at the South Pole when it's -120 F, one could dress up in the type of clothing you'd expect someone at the South Pole to have, go for at least a 30 minute walk around the base (assuming the weather is otherwise nice), and return with no health problems? That's very surprising to me if so.

Why is that so surprising? The folk who spend the winter at the South Pole, and even more so Vostok, are wearing appropriate clothing outside when they have to go out. They'd be dead if they didn't. Why is your 30 minute outside exposure significant? Indeed, what do you think is nice weather on a high plateau close to the southern pole?

[Lemur866]

It's hardly ever close to -120F in Antarctica. That's record cold. It's usually much warmer even in the dead of winter.

I grew up in Fairbanks Alaska, where we got to 60 below a couple of times every winter.

It is perfectly safe to go outside at 60 below with normal cold weather clothing for an hour or two. What makes it dangerous is if you get damp, or disoriented, or tired or hungry. If you are hiking there is absolutely no margin for error, a simple mistake can cost you your life. There are two dangers, frostbite and hypothermia. Ironically, because you are wearing warm clothes hypothermia isn't the biggest danger. Much more likely is frostbite, where the tissue of your extremities literally freezes. Your core temperatures can be fine but your fingers, toes, ears and nose can be literally frozen.

You can lose fingers and toes and ears to frostbite in a very short time if you aren't dressed appropriately. But since the OP specified that the test subject could wear appropriate "normal" cold weather gear, that's not a danger for the short times he's talking about. People tend to spend an absolute minimum amount of time outdoors when it gets colder than 40 below. That's damn cold and not any fun, and 60 below seems three times colder.

At 60 below it starts to feel like you're on an alien planet. Sounds are distorted, the air is absolutely still, ice fog as thick as peanut butter, and you can feel the cold punching you in the face as you walk. Also, cars left outside won't start even if they're plugged in, metal and plastic items become extremely brittle. Nothing more embarrassing than going to open your car door and having the handle snap off in your hand.

[Robb]

Some of the indigenous peoples of the southern end of South America lived in the cold in little to no clothing. They were nomadic and didn't really build shelters.

[snailboy]

Originally Posted by Baron Greenback

Why is that so surprising? The folk who spend the winter at the South Pole, and even more so Vostok, are wearing appropriate clothing outside when they have to go out. They'd be dead if they didn't. Why is your 30 minute outside exposure significant? Indeed, what do you think is nice weather on a high plateau close to the southern pole?

I'm from Texas. It's strange to even think that it has hit -120 anywhere on Earth. I figured they just didn't go outside when it hit such extreme temperatures.

And I do know that -120 is (almost) the record temperature, not the winter average. Still, if you stay at South Pole or Vostok Station through the winter, you're going to see temperatures close to that at some point.

[pabstist]

I work at a high school, and one day that was about 20 degrees out, I saw kid get dropped off out front.

"Hey Earl, aren't you kinda cold wearing shorts today?"
"Nope, my family is 6th generation Vermonters, so we don't get cold."

Ah, I did not know that the human body could adapt like that over a few generations!

[Telemark]

Real Vermonters have disdain for the weather.

[fiddlesticks]

Luxury! Try cryogenic chamber therapy. Guess this doesn't qualify under "lengthy periods" but it sounds pretty "interesting".

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The chamber is cooled, typically with liquid nitrogen, usually to a temperature of −120 °C (−184 °F)—although temperatures of −140 °C (−220 °F) or even −160 °C (−256 °F) have been used.[3] The patient is protected from acute frostbite with socks, gloves and mouth and ear protection, but in addition to that, wears nothing but a bathing suit. The patient spends a few minutes in the chamber. During treatment the average skin temperature drops to 12 °C (54 °F), while the coldest skin temperature can be 5 °C (41 °F). The core body temperature remains unchanged during the treatment, however it may drop slightly afterwards. Therapy triggers the release of endorphins which induce analgesia (immediate pain relief).

[snailboy]

Originally Posted by fiddlesticks

Luxury! Try cryogenic chamber therapy. Guess this doesn't qualify under "lengthy periods" but it sounds pretty "interesting".

Interesting, but it sounds like a really expensive alternative to opioids.

[Kenm]

Originally Posted by snailboy

Interesting, but it sounds like a really expensive alternative to opioids.

And a really expensive alternative to shovelling my front walk.

[astro]

There a study done decades ago with Asian (Japanese possibly) children who were raised in an mainly unheated winter household environment, and were not bundled up in heavy clothing. Their rates of colds and flu etc was substantially lower than that of kids in heated houses who were bundled up.