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  #1  
Old 10-02-2012, 12:53 PM
robert_columbia robert_columbia is offline
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Is child pornography legal anywhere?

No, I do NOT want any. I agree that this type of material is very offensive but am genuinely curious as to whether or not banning it is a universal practice.

I was reading this thread where there is a discussion regarding the difficulty in catching perverted purveyors of potent and puerile prepubescent pornographies. One reason appears to be that the Internet is international and that there are jurisdictional issues in going after people who post stuff they oughtn't. I do understand that there are jurisdictions in the world where local law enforcement basically isn't interested in helping the FBI and other foreign agencies arrest local citizens, either because they just don't want to help or because they don't have any room in the budget for it.

Anyway, is there any jurisdiction anywhere in the world where child pornography, in the sense that it is generally defined in the US and other similar countries, is substantively legal, for example a small island country where you can actually walk down to the corner Pornomart and ask for the elementary school girl section and everything is 100% out in the open, legal, and no effort whatsoever is made to hide anything?
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  #2  
Old 10-02-2012, 12:57 PM
aldiboronti aldiboronti is offline
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Legal status of child pornography by country

The countries shaded red have no laws concerning child pornography. More than I would have thought.

Last edited by aldiboronti; 10-02-2012 at 12:58 PM..
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  #3  
Old 10-02-2012, 01:12 PM
Hershele Ostropoler Hershele Ostropoler is offline
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From May until September it was legal in New York to look at/watch CP on your computer as long as you didn't download it.

(The appellate judge made it clear she wasn't happy about this.)
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  #4  
Old 10-02-2012, 01:39 PM
grude grude is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aldiboronti View Post
Legal status of child pornography by country

The countries shaded red have no laws concerning child pornography. More than I would have thought.
That site is playing a bit of a trick though, they are listing countries that have no law specifically against child porn as it being legal, even if all porn is illegal.

Trinidad&Tobago

http://missingtrinbagonians.wordpres...d-pornography/

Quote:
V. CHILD PORNOGRAPHY

The legislation does not specifically pertain to child pornography, but to all pornographic material.

Section 46(g) of the Summery Offences Act Chapter 11:02

Any person who offers for sale or distribution or who exhibits to public view, any profane, indecent, or obscene book, paper, print, drawing, painting or representation, shall be liable to imprisonment for 2 months.

Section 104 Indecent pictures and writings

Any person who-

1. affixes to or inscribes an any land, building, wall, hoarding, gate, fence, pillar, post, board, tree or any other thing whatsoever, so as to be visible to any person being in or passing along any street or being in any house; or

2. delivers, sends or exhibits to any person being in or passing along any street; or

3. throws into any house, yard or premises; or

4. exhibits to public view in the window or any house or shop, any picture or printed or written matter which is of an indecent or obscene nature, is liable to a fine of 400 $.

There are no statutory provisions for the mere possession of child pornography materials.
If others have the time you could check out more of the legals on that page.
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  #5  
Old 10-02-2012, 02:02 PM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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I recall a discussion - I'm thinking it was Harlan Ellison - in musings about censorship mentioned that every politician always brings up the bugaboo about kiddie porn. Just as an experiment, in the days when the area near Times Square was noted for porn, he mentioned going into several of the shops and asking for child material. (Sounds like Harlan to have that nerve) He said even the guys selling the scuzziest material gave him dirty looks like he was dogshit they'd stepped in and had to scrape off their shoe.

His conclusion - if you couldn't get it in that area of NYC, there was no such material in North America on the open market.

I recall in some discussion too that the age limit for photography in Holland is/was(?) 16 not 18.

The map linked also categorizes whether the ISP cooperates. If the illegal activity is under investigation, then I seriously doubt there's anywhere in the first world that they will not cooperate. However, expecting the ISP to put in place any massive tracking, filtering, and other firewall software is just an added expense in an already marginal industry. All it does is increase the process of forcing out the little guys in favour of national telephone and cable providers, and then giving them an excuse to raise rates.

Some of the "no laws" countries have more important things to think about (like food) and typically have law enforcement that don't need details like explicit laws to chase someone doing objectionable work. However, they also do not have the sophistication to run an Internet Crimes unit in their police departments.

Last edited by md2000; 10-02-2012 at 02:04 PM..
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  #6  
Old 10-02-2012, 05:04 PM
dracoi dracoi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grude View Post
That site is playing a bit of a trick though, they are listing countries that have no law specifically against child porn as it being legal, even if all porn is illegal.

Trinidad&Tobago
http://missingtrinbagonians.wordpres...d-pornography/

If others have the time you could check out more of the legals on that page.
Is it such a trick, though? By my reading of that law, you can legally buy and own pornography of any kind, so long as you don't sell, distribute or display it. That meets my definition of legal.
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:33 PM
grude grude is offline
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Originally Posted by dracoi View Post
Is it such a trick, though? By my reading of that law, you can legally buy and own pornography of any kind, so long as you don't sell, distribute or display it. That meets my definition of legal.
I guess as long as it was not produced in the country, and you just possess it. You still couldn't run Bob's child porn emporium.
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  #8  
Old 10-02-2012, 06:03 PM
Iggy Iggy is online now
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Cayman is similar to Trinidad & Tobago... the law bans all porn. Not sure what the exact wording in the issue states but the below linked article refers to bans on importation and distribution. I'm not sure how possession or manufacture is addressed in the law for porn in general.

Nevertheless legislative efforts are underway to implement laws specific to child porn issues.
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  #9  
Old 10-02-2012, 06:05 PM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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I'm sure many of the third-world countries can stretch a charge like "Public Indecency" to cover whatever action completely offends their morality. Part of the problem may be that in countries where marriage at 14 is typical and legal, they may not see 14 or 15 year-olds as victims in the same way that, say, a 6-y-o victim may totally gross out the authorities. Of course, in a land where connections and power counts for a lot, your social standing and that of the victim's family may count as much as rule of law.

Afghanistan may not have had specific laws for example, but I doubt anyone during the Taliban era lasted long if they were caught...
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  #10  
Old 10-02-2012, 08:21 PM
coremelt coremelt is offline
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In Japan, possession is legal, while manufacturing and distribution is illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_p..._laws_in_Japan
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  #11  
Old 10-02-2012, 10:55 PM
Shamozzle Shamozzle is offline
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NM

Last edited by Shamozzle; 10-02-2012 at 10:57 PM..
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  #12  
Old 10-02-2012, 11:09 PM
alphaboi867 alphaboi867 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grude View Post
That site is playing a bit of a trick though, they are listing countries that have no law specifically against child porn as it being legal, even if all porn is illegal...
IIRC this is what happened in Russia after the Soviet Union fell. The USSR had an age of consent for sex of 14, and it had laws against making pornography and against prostitution. When the laws against pornography & prositution were repealed the government neglected to set a higher age of consent for those. That oversight wasn't corrected for several years.

Also sometimes older material get's grandfathered in as legal when new laws are passed. Traci Lords made dozens of pornos before she turned 18, and 1 afterward. That last film is the only one that's legal in the US, but several of her earlier films remain legal in European countries that have since made it illegal to make porn with under18s.
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  #13  
Old 10-03-2012, 12:41 AM
Indistinguishable Indistinguishable is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grude View Post
That site is playing a bit of a trick though, they are listing countries that have no law specifically against child porn as it being legal, even if all porn is illegal.
Huh? What trick? They specifically mark countries of that status with a special color (the lightest of the three shades of green), according to the key.
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  #14  
Old 10-03-2012, 02:01 AM
Hail Ants Hail Ants is offline
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When Europe decriminalized porn in the late 60s Denmark didn't exclude child pornography. A company called Color Climax (Wiki link, SFW) produced & sold hardcore kiddie porn all thru the 70s! They're still in the porn business today, but only 18+.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hershele Ostropoler
From May until September it was legal in New York to look at/watch CP on your computer as long as you didn't download it.

(The appellate judge made it clear she wasn't happy about this.)
Ok, I give up. What is this referring to?
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  #15  
Old 10-03-2012, 09:58 AM
Donnerwetter Donnerwetter is online now
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Originally Posted by Hail Ants View Post
When Europe decriminalized porn in the late 60s Denmark didn't exclude child pornography. A company called Color Climax (Wiki link, SFW) produced & sold hardcore kiddie porn all thru the 70s! They're still in the porn business today, but only 18+.
I've read about this too and find it extremely disturbing. The production of child porn by definition involves serious child abuse. How could that company get away with it and operate in full daylight as a legit business in Denmark which is after all a civilized country in the Western World?

The Wikipedia article talks about children younger than 7.
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  #16  
Old 10-10-2012, 10:26 AM
Hershele Ostropoler Hershele Ostropoler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hershele Ostropoler View Post
From May until September it was legal in New York to look at/watch CP on your computer as long as you didn't download it.

(The appellate judge made it clear she wasn't happy about this.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail Ants View Post
Ok, I give up. What is this referring to?
This. About three months when child pornography was partly legal in New York state.
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  #17  
Old 10-10-2012, 06:26 PM
janeslogin janeslogin is offline
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Among the several good French movies that have a lot of Algerian themes, plots etc. there is one with scenes in a female bath house. Young boys are allowed in the female bath. There is one with a scene where a young adult woman is playing with a boys penis. It can be rented in the US. So, is that porn? Is it legal?

Last edited by janeslogin; 10-10-2012 at 06:27 PM..
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  #18  
Old 10-10-2012, 10:12 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnerwetter View Post
I've read about this too and find it extremely disturbing. The production of child porn by definition involves serious child abuse. How could that company get away with it and operate in full daylight as a legit business in Denmark which is after all a civilized country in the Western World?

The Wikipedia article talks about children younger than 7.
It was only towards the mid-70s that "civilized countries in the Western world" barely began really taking child sex abuse seriously and bothering to follow up aggressively rather than sweep it under the table to "avoid scandal". That's when specific laws explicitly against CP began passing.

As the article said, 1969-79 even if sale and distribution were legal, creation of the CC CP material itself was still unlawful under Danish AoC laws. So it may have been a matter of poor enforcement. You would need someone to actually go to a police station or DA-equivalent's office with some porn and say, hey, look at this, WTF? And I have a WAG that if the particular photograph or 8mm film clip could not be proven to have been created IN Denmark, and CC claimed that their CP division operated as a packager (the negatives being mailed to them from wherever), there would have been no jurisdiction.

It took a lot longer in many countries to go for an explicit ban than one would have thought, partly because of societies being in denial or in failure-of-imagination mode (as in, "oh, come on, who'd be so twisted as to actually put such a thing out openly for commercial sale") and that in turn partly because it probably was not THAT widespread (no Internet, remember? Had to get yourself a real photo studio and a real commercial print shop and drop actual physical magazines or reels in the post in plain brown packages).

"Holy smack, that's sick" without a law to enforce it, may keep the porn shops at old 42nd St. from carrying the material, but is nothing to the mail-order (or fileshare) customer.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 10-10-2012 at 10:14 PM..
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  #19  
Old 10-11-2012, 05:39 AM
gracer gracer is offline
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Originally Posted by md2000 View Post

I recall in some discussion too that the age limit for photography in Holland is/was(?) 16 not 18.
It is 16, but there are some ifs and buts. It is only nude photography, they aren't allowed to be paid, it can't be in any place accesible to the public (?) and they can't be performing anything that might be construed as a sexual act.

Considering that nudity is really not a big deal at all here, and that the legal age to have sex is also 16 I think the law makes sense. It would be stranger if you weren't allowed to do that.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:53 AM
Nava Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by aldiboronti View Post
Legal status of child pornography by country

The countries shaded red have no laws concerning child pornography. More than I would have thought.
And what the frak is "inadequate laws" supposed to mean? Inadequate according to whom?
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  #21  
Old 10-11-2012, 06:27 AM
BigT BigT is offline
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
And what the frak is "inadequate laws" supposed to mean? Inadequate according to whom?
Click the "Read More" button and it will tell you what the requirements are. A country rated as "inadequate" doesn't meet 2 or more requirements.

EDIT: Here's a quick list in case there's something wrong with your browser:
  1. Are there existing laws criminalizing child pornography?
  2. Does existing law include a legal definition of child pornography?
  3. Is the possession of child pornography a crime?
  4. Is the distribution of child pornography via computer and the Internet a crime?
  5. Are Internet Service Providers (ISPs) required to report suspected child pornography to law enforcement?

Last edited by BigT; 10-11-2012 at 06:31 AM..
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  #22  
Old 10-11-2012, 06:35 AM
Nava Nava is offline
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Well, under Spanish law:

1. Making, 3. posessing, 4. distributing and obtaining child pornography is illegal,
2. Porn involving people under age 18 (I just checked, in case the age was lower and that was what the mapmaker considered inadequate)
5. Yes, under the general requirement to report suspected illegal activity.

So I know of at least one country that's painted the wrong color.
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  #23  
Old 10-11-2012, 08:05 AM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
So I know of at least one country that's painted the wrong color.
ISTM that they prefer every item complied with by a special law specifically addressing CP, as opposed to as part of a broader law; and similarly they may want a law specifically saying computer/Internet as opposed to generally saying distributing or transmitting.

Have no idea if they may also be making a judgement of satisfactory compliance based on how strict or harsh the specific statute is for other criteria. Things like jurisdictional conditions, provisions for drawings or simulated representations, etc.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 10-11-2012 at 08:08 AM..
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  #24  
Old 10-11-2012, 08:50 AM
bienville bienville is offline
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Originally Posted by gracer View Post
It is 16, but there are some ifs and buts. It is only nude photography, they aren't allowed to be paid, it can't be in any place accesible to the public (?) and they can't be performing anything that might be construed as a sexual act.
In the U.S. it has been (somewhat) well established that nudity does not automatically equal pornography. Nude photography that is not pornographic is o.k. even if photographs include persons who are younger than 18. I don't know the specific laws, but every 5 years are so someone puiblishes an art photography book that features nude children/adolescents. Step 2: someone screams "KIDDIE PORN! KIDDIE PORN!" Step 3: some judge says "No, it's not."

Are you describing something different in The Netherlands? Kinda sounds like you're describing the same thing.
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Old 10-11-2012, 07:01 PM
gracer gracer is offline
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Originally Posted by bienville View Post
Are you describing something different in The Netherlands? Kinda sounds like you're describing the same thing.
Dunno. I think in the Netherlands under 16 the parents can give permission. From 16 the person themselves gives permission, the parents have no say. In both cases no sexual acts etc. The law is pretty clear I think, no grey areas that I'm aware of.

Maybe it is the same...
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  #26  
Old 10-12-2012, 10:13 AM
Lungfish Lungfish is offline
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There is an article in today's The Independent that says that in Japan that child porn is legal "unless there is proven intent to sell or distribute." : Japan's child porn addiction
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  #27  
Old 10-12-2012, 01:51 PM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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What the map also demostrates is how specific the law needs to get. I assume a lot of third world countries don't have RICO statutes, consumer fraud laws, "corrupting a minor", illegal use of a computer system, making inappropriate jokes in an airport, or vehicular homicide laws. Maybe some don't even have DUI laws. However, they probably ahve judges who are willing to extend the definitions of existing alws to cover actions that the government finds offensive. (Like "public indecency").

The problem with the first world is this massive body of laws keeps growing and being added to, but rarely shrinks. The laws cover things that were probably illegal anyway, but either refines the definition to be sure, or adds to the sentence for what is considered a more despicable act. (CP falls into both categories, I assume)

So just because the laws don't cover child pornography in some country, does not mean you will get away with possessing or making it.
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