The Walking Dead; 3.08 "Made to Suffer" (open spoilers)

[LurkerInNJ]

Andrea is turning into a blonde Lori. I hope the lights finally went on in her head when the Gov hauled Daryl out in front of the bloodthirsty crowd.

Michonne should have told Lori that the Gov sent his men after her to kill her after she left and that she had now hooked up with Rick and his group. And mentioning that Carl and Maggie had been taken hostage by Merle wouldn't have hurt either. Silence is your best option to a point, but she should have shown her hand.

I cannot figure out what is up with Maggie. She grew up on a farm, has been with Rick and the crew for close to a year in close quarters and is an efficient zombie killer but she still has trouble with her survival instinct. Glen has honed his just fine. Good job with taking out the zombie bones and using them as weapons.

Carol and the convict in the I thought you was a lesbian cause you got the short hair scene was funny.

They need to start telling people that they lock in the outer room at the prison a little bit more information. I know I would all out panic if I thought I was being helped and then suddenly found myself locked in like I was their prisoner. Just a little no offense, but we don't know you so to keep us safe until the rest of our group gets back you are going to be our guests in the 100% zombie secure area with food and water, please get some rest, no one is going to get hurt speech.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by LurkerInNJ

They need to start telling people that they lock in the outer room at the prison a little bit more information. I know I would all out panic if I thought I was being helped and then suddenly found myself locked in like I was their prisoner. Just a little no offense, but we don't know you so to keep us safe until the rest of our group gets back you are going to be our guests in the 100% zombie secure area with food and water, please get some rest, no one is going to get hurt speech.

That all happened off camera.

[SenorBeef]

Originally Posted by LurkerInNJ

They need to start telling people that they lock in the outer room at the prison a little bit more information. I know I would all out panic if I thought I was being helped and then suddenly found myself locked in like I was their prisoner. Just a little no offense, but we don't know you so to keep us safe until the rest of our group gets back you are going to be our guests in the 100% zombie secure area with food and water, please get some rest, no one is going to get hurt speech.

Lost proved that the key to a successful TV show is making sure your characters never communicate in any sort of vaguely reasonable way with other characters.

[obfusciatrist]

Originally Posted by LurkerInNJ

I cannot figure out what is up with Maggie. She grew up on a farm, has been with Rick and the crew for close to a year in close quarters and is an efficient zombie killer but she still has trouble with her survival instinct.

She showed absolutely no hesitation in putting her arm bones in the next of the red shirt.

She didn't shoot Merle because he is of narrative importance to the story (same reason zombies are invisible until just before they pause and let you know they're there before biting you, or always move slightly slower than whoever they're chasing).

As for an in-story reason, maybe it wasn't hesitation to shoot Merle but hesitation to shoot someone inches away from someone you don't want to shoot. But I'd have to watch that bit again to see if she had clear and safe opportunities to shoot him without risking Glenn.

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by obfusciatrist

As for an in-story reason, maybe it wasn't hesitation to shoot Merle but hesitation to shoot someone inches away from someone you don't want to shoot. But I'd have to watch that bit again to see if she had clear and safe opportunities to shoot him without risking Glenn.

This is a corner the show painted itself into. They show the characters as superhuman marksmen, capable of perfect headshots in all conditions. This is demonstrated by Carl in this very episode. So when they need Maggie to hesitate instead of firing, or to have a (realistically) confused and indecisive gunfight, it rings false because it contradicts what the show has established.

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

Lost proved that the key to a successful TV show is making sure your characters never communicate in any sort of vaguely reasonable way with other characters.

Yes, this is a tactic to clumsily manufacture drama. The downside is that it alienates the audience from the characters, by making them appear to be idiots.

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Merle said his brother was part of the group, and I suspect Daryl would have asked to see Merle when he was first captured.

Doesn't wash. The governor knew that Merle's brother was part of the other group, but had no idea what he looked like. If Merle knew his brother had been captured, why bring him in with a bag over his head? I think the writers just figured the drama of the scene would gloss over this rather inept bit of writing.

Andrea deserves to die more than ever. What a moron.

[Fubaya]

She knew Merle was Daryl's brother, killing the brother of the best member of the group might make you hesitate.

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Merle said his brother was part of the group, and I suspect Daryl would have asked to see Merle when he was first captured.

Originally Posted by Chefguy

Doesn't wash. The governor knew that Merle's brother was part of the other group, but had no idea what he looked like. If Merle knew his brother had been captured, why bring him in with a bag over his head? I think the writers just figured the drama of the scene would gloss over this rather inept bit of writing.

Not to speak for John Mace, but I believe he means that Daryl was captured, asked his guards if he could see Merle, and that this information was passed to The Governor, who kept it from Merle until the big reveal. This is probably the most plausible scenario.

Originally Posted by Chefguy

Andrea deserves to die more than ever. What a moron.

And a thoroughly unpleasant person: whiny, entitled, arrogant, demanding, promiscuous...

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by Human Action

Not to speak for John Mace, but I believe he means that Daryl was captured, asked his guards if he could see Merle, and that this information was passed to The Governor, who kept it from Merle until the big reveal. This is probably the most plausible scenario.

Okay, I can buy that, but I'll continue to grumble about it.

And a thoroughly unpleasant person: whiny, entitled, arrogant, demanding, promiscuous...

Boy, howdy. Promiscuous doesn't bother me, but the rest of it makes me a hater. Not having somebody to hate would make for boring TV, though.

[AngelSoft]

Originally Posted by Chefguy

Okay, I can buy that, but I'll continue to grumble about it.



Boy, howdy. Promiscuous doesn't bother me, but the rest of it makes me a hater. Not having somebody to hate would make for boring TV, though.

Yeah all those make me hate her but also because I've never really forgiven her for basically telling Beth to go ahead and kill herself. What a bitch.

[DigitalC]

I thought she kinda had a point on that one.

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by Chefguy

Okay, I can buy that, but I'll continue to grumble about it.

If you assume that once The Governor saw that Michonne was alive and well, after Merle assured him that he'd killed her, he quietly issued orders to the other security guys to keep Merle in the dark about Daryl, then it makes sense. When The Governor publicly excoriated Merle, the other security guys who moved to disarm him didn't seem taken aback, so it seems The Governor had told them that Merle couldn't be trusted and/or was a traitor.

I thought The Governor's, a despotic ruler with down-home folksy ways, use of "terrorists" to describe Woodbury's enemies was a bit on the nose.

Originally Posted by Chefguy

Boy, howdy. Promiscuous doesn't bother me, but the rest of it makes me a hater. Not having somebody to hate would make for boring TV, though.

There's "TV hate" where you have a villain who does evil things, and then is killed by the hero. Then you have characters like Andrea, who are just bad people, and no one ever calls them on it. It makes me hate her more than the actual villains.

Originally Posted by AngelSoft

Yeah all those make me hate her but also because I've never really forgiven her for basically telling Beth to go ahead and kill herself. What a bitch.

Originally Posted by DigitalC

I thought she kinda had a point on that one.

She didn't exactly tell her to kill herself, she said ""The pain doesn't go away, you just make room for it," and left her alone. I read that as "things are shitty, and will remain so, but you can adjust to it and carry on."

[Meltdown]

Here's a thought I had -- we don't see what transpired between The Governor and Merle after The Governor said "I was attacked" and the very last scene. Is it possible that The Governor came up with a plan so that it would look like he was about to execute Merle and Daryl, but then an "escape" would happen, such that Daryl brings Merle back to the prison, and now The Governor has a man on the inside?

[Hentor the Barbarian]

Penny was clearly not responding to any stimuli other than the meat in the bowl. That's why the governor got so angry at the end of that scene.

I didn't understand Michonne's reaction to hearing zombie noises from behind a locked grate. It would have made more sense for her to see a child and open the door.

Add me to those irritated by the quota on living black guys that exists for the show.

While I don't like Andrea, her annoyance with being detailed to doing bedchecks is at least consistent within the character. She was always really gung ho to learn to shoot, and even ended up shooting Daryl in her zeal to take out walkers.

I liked the small smile that Daryl started to show during the final scene with Merle. Made me feel like he knew something, had a plan, or was just looking forward to fighting his way out.

[BlueOhio]

Meltdown, you might be onto something - remember that the governor talked to Merle earlier in the episode about using him as a mole. Might just be a plan, with Merle doing a great job of acting surprised.

[Ephemera]

Originally Posted by Human Action

And a thoroughly unpleasant person: whiny, entitled, arrogant, demanding, promiscuous...

Oh, no! She's promiscuous. What a slut.

[Ephemera]

The rest are bad enough, but how dare she not have your emotional hang-ups about sex!

[enalzi]

Originally Posted by BlueOhio

Meltdown, you might be onto something - remember that the governor talked to Merle earlier in the episode about using him as a mole. Might just be a plan, with Merle doing a great job of acting surprised.

Yep, I think that's it. Honestly, Merle didn't even looked that shocked to me. He didn't really protest at all.

[DigitalC]

Originally Posted by Meltdown

Here's a thought I had -- we don't see what transpired between The Governor and Merle after The Governor said "I was attacked" and the very last scene. Is it possible that The Governor came up with a plan so that it would look like he was about to execute Merle and Daryl, but then an "escape" would happen, such that Daryl brings Merle back to the prison, and now The Governor has a man on the inside?

The Governor just lost his eye and his daughter to Michonne after Merle lied to him about having killed her. I seriously doubt he had any plan other than to kill Merle and make an escape goat out of him.

[Acsenray]

Hm ... autocorrect doesn't recognize "scapegoat"?

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by DigitalC

The Governor just lost his eye and his daughter to Michonne after Merle lied to him about having killed her. I seriously doubt he had any plan other than to kill Merle and make an escape goat out of him.

Nitpick: scapegoat. Please carry on.

[Quimby]

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian

I didn't understand Michonne's reaction to hearing zombie noises from behind a locked grate. It would have made more sense for her to see a child and open the door.

I liked the small smile that Daryl started to show during the final scene with Merle. Made me feel like he knew something, had a plan, or was just looking forward to fighting his way out.

Re: Michonne, she seemed to assume the Governor was a pedophile and she was freeing a child.

Re: The Dixon. One thing that is interesting (and may have been mentioned and I missed it), this is the first time in the series the two brothers were on screen together in reality.

[SenorBeef]

Escape goat.

[Bone]

This episode should have been incredibly intense as it's the first meeting of the two story lines but what could have been awesome drama and action fell flat for me. Overall it was a solid episode but I was taken out of it too much by stupid stuff.

Maggie should have easily killed Merle. If they wanted Merle to continue living they should have wrote it in such a way that she tried to shoot him and missed, or she was subdued before she could get the shot off. Either way that would have had the same result but less stupid.

What was the point of Rick hesitating? So we can show his hesitation cause the death of replacement token black guy?

The gunplay in the street shootout was ... well stupid. Maybe the smoke they deployed was wussy for TV so you could still see the actors, but I have a hard time that little smoke would make them unable to be seen as they walk along the street. And Rick's group could shoot just fine while engulfed in it, but somehow it created a cloud of invulnerability for them inside of it. Rick's group had, what 4 people shooting, Rick, Maggie, Oscar, and Daryl. Woodbury had at least a dozen or so? Shooting a target at what looked like 2-400 feet away with rifles was incredibly easy against the National Guard, but against Rick's group they suck balls. The gun fight totally took me out of it.

The Michone character is getting comically stupid. First, the Governor is disarmed and you kill the zombie daughter. Apparently she wasn't prepared to get attacked after that because while she was armed with her magical sword that can do no wrong, the Governor is somehow able to get the jump on her. That should have been the end of the Governor. If they wanted that scene to play out the way it did, maybe Michone puts down her sword to de-hood the zombie daughter and is surprised and without her sword. She uses an improvised blunt object weapon and while about to kill her the Governor walks in. As he does so, Michone is still without her sword as she put it down before. Still works, and she looks less stupid.

Next, face to face with Andrea, the girl you've protected and been with for the better part of 9 months, and you can't say a single word to explain. How about, "Merle kidnapped Glenn and Maggie and I'm here with Rick to save them."

I liked the show, but all the parts that could have been great drama were lessened by stupid.

[SenorBeef]

It also didn't make a ton of sense for them to have smoke. What do you need smoke grenades for in a prison? Now teargas would make sense. In fact, our group taking gas masks from the prison armory and using tear gas to cover their infiltration of Woodbury would make way more sense than that big firefight. Would've been more clever and just as dramatic with less stupid.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by Human Action

Not to speak for John Mace, but I believe he means that Daryl was captured, asked his guards if he could see Merle, and that this information was passed to The Governor, who kept it from Merle until the big reveal. This is probably the most plausible scenario.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

[MeanJoe]

Originally Posted by Meltdown

Here's a thought I had -- we don't see what transpired between The Governor and Merle after The Governor said "I was attacked" and the very last scene. Is it possible that The Governor came up with a plan so that it would look like he was about to execute Merle and Daryl, but then an "escape" would happen, such that Daryl brings Merle back to the prison, and now The Governor has a man on the inside?

This was my thinking exactly, the whole thing felt like a set-up to me to get Daryl to trust Merle and end-up with a man on the inside. Didn't they discuss earlier in the episode about getting a man inside?

The only thing against this is what was mentioned earlier - Merle did tell the Gov that Michonne was dead. Clearly the Gov now knows Merle lied. Not a large leap to conspiracy for the Gov in that situation.

Gonna be a long wait until February!

[DigitalC]

There was one shot of one of the defenders looking right down at Daryl and firing off a burst from a machine gun at him and missing completely from about no further than ten feet that drove me crazy. Also the Shane lookalike completely ignoring Rick who was RIGHT THERE to take out token black guy who was much further away with a shot gun.

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally Posted by LurkerInNJ

Andrea is turning into a blonde Lori. I hope the lights finally went on in her head when the Gov hauled Daryl out in front of the bloodthirsty crowd. <snip>

Yup. She's seriously getting on my nerves.

They need to start telling people that they lock in the outer room at the prison a little bit more information. I know I would all out panic if I thought I was being helped and then suddenly found myself locked in like I was their prisoner. Just a little no offense, but we don't know you so to keep us safe until the rest of our group gets back you are going to be our guests in the 100% zombie secure area with food and water, please get some rest, no one is going to get hurt speech.

Yup. "You understand - we don't know you, and we've had some bad experiences with strangers before, so please don't take it too personally."

Originally Posted by Meltdown

Here's a thought I had -- we don't see what transpired between The Governor and Merle after The Governor said "I was attacked" and the very last scene. Is it possible that The Governor came up with a plan so that it would look like he was about to execute Merle and Daryl, but then an "escape" would happen, such that Daryl brings Merle back to the prison, and now The Governor has a man on the inside?

I don't think that would work, though - Glen would kill Merle the first chance he has.

[Cat Whisperer]

Has anyone mentioned yet how irritating it was that Rick didn't pick up the gun he walked right past when he shot the Shane look-alike? Another gun would never be amiss in the Zombie Apocalypse. I guess we have to put that one down to him being rattled by feeling his cheese sliding off his cracker.

[AngelSoft]

Originally Posted by Cat Whisperer

Yup. She's seriously getting on my nerves.
Yup. "You understand - we don't know you, and we've had some bad experiences with strangers before, so please don't take it too personally."

I don't think that would work, though - Glen would kill Merle the first chance he has.

Yes, but if you saw the previews for next season, it has a clip of Glenn running up to someone and yelling something like "What is he doing here?!". I'd assume, given his rage, it's Merle.

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

Lost proved that the key to a successful TV show is making sure your characters never communicate in any sort of vaguely reasonable way with other characters.

According to Alan Sepinwall, "Glen Mazzara has talked in the past about his fondness for "Lost" and how parts of "The Walking Dead" are modeled on it."

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian

I didn't understand Michonne's reaction to hearing zombie noises from behind a locked grate. It would have made more sense for her to see a child and open the door.

Agreed, that scene was sloppy, in that they cranked up the zombie-sounds, then had Michonne be surprised to find a zombie. It made her look pretty stupid.

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian

While I don't like Andrea, her annoyance with being detailed to doing bedchecks is at least consistent within the character. She was always really gung ho to learn to shoot, and even ended up shooting Daryl in her zeal to take out walkers.

Very consistent, yes: Overestimating her own abilities, desperate to prove herself, and heedless of a team or command structure in a time of crisis.

Originally Posted by Ephemera

The rest are bad enough, but how dare she not have your emotional hang-ups about sex!

So you are upset that I was too inclusive in a list of negative character traits possessed by a fictional character? My mistake.

[alphaboi867]

Originally Posted by Chefguy

Okay, so how did the Governor know that Darryl was Merle's brother? They just captured him, and you know he wouldn't have said shit, so short of having a photo of him, the guv couldn't have known who he was.

Merle told them about his brother and that he's with the group. Even if Daryl didn't talk I could see him slipping up and responding if the Gov or one of his guards called out "Daryl".

Originally Posted by Human Action

...I thought The Governor's, a despotic ruler with down-home folksy ways, use of "terrorists" to describe Woodbury's enemies was a bit on the nose...

Eh, it's a post-9/11 world. "Terrorist" is just the first word that would come to mind; it sounds much more natural that vagabonds or brigands. One of which is very obviously an "escaped convict" what with being in a prison uniform. It'll certainly help the governor with his propoganda.

[lost4life]

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian

...She was always really gung ho to learn to shoot, and even ended up shooting Daryl in her zeal to take out walkers...

Don't be too hard on yourself. We've all wanted to shoot Daryl.

[Folacin]

Originally Posted by LurkerInNJ

They need to start telling people that they lock in the outer room at the prison a little bit more information. I know I would all out panic if I thought I was being helped and then suddenly found myself locked in like I was their prisoner. Just a little no offense, but we don't know you so to keep us safe until the rest of our group gets back you are going to be our guests in the 100% zombie secure area with food and water, please get some rest, no one is going to get hurt speech.

Well, they've only locked up two groups. I think if Rick had been there, he would have explained it more fully. Carl is just taking the actions that he thinks his dad would; having a 12-14 year old (how old is Carl?) not explain his action seems real to me. And he did tell them they were secure, with food and water.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by Ephemera

Oh, no! She's promiscuous. What a slut.

Right? I found the inclusion of "promscuous" on that list as jarring as you did.

Originally Posted by Human Action

So you are upset that I was too inclusive in a list of negative character traits possessed by a fictional character? My mistake.

No, it was probably more about the overt sexism.

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by alphaboi867

Eh, it's a post-9/11 world. "Terrorist" is just the first word that would come to mind; it sounds much more natural that vagabonds or brigands. One of which is very obviously an "escaped convict" what with being in a prison uniform. It'll certainly help the governor with his propoganda.

Right, which is why I found it a bit jarring, having a leader rally his people with fears of "terrorists", who were actually only retaliating for the policies and actions of the leader, seemed like a political statement by the show itself.

Originally Posted by Folacin

I think if Rick had been there, he would have explained it more fully. Carl is just taking the actions that he thinks his dad would; having a 12-14 year old (how old is Carl?) not explain his action seems real to me. And he did tell them they were secure, with food and water.

And Tyreese got his people to settle down pretty quickly; Carl might have told them more if the situation demanded it. But I think he was just waiting for Rick to return to talk to the newcomers.

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

Right? I found the inclusion of "promscuous" on that list as jarring as you did.

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

No, it was probably more about the overt sexism.

You're going to have to clarify here. Are you saying that promiscuity is not a negative character trait, that the term is "overtly" sexist, what?

[Ellis Dee]

Yes, being promiscuous is not a negative character trait. Thinking that it is a negative trait for women is sexist.

EDIT: And even if it were, good grief, she's been celibate for like 10 months. Your promiscuous bar is set super low, as in backwoods southern preacher low.

[Sam Stone]

Count me in as someone who really hated the gunfight. They really need to get someone on this show who can choreograph a proper battle. So they pop smoke to obscure their run across the compound, then they stop in the middle and hunker down with no cover and start trading shots with men who are shooting down on them from high cover? And Rick comes out of that completely unscathed? They were in the middle of a bloody shooting gallery. The proper thing to do would have been to pop the smoke then RUN LIKE HELL until you're under cover.

I'm also really, really sick of characters who won't say what they know, for no reason other than that the writers couldn't come up with another way to maintain the tension. Yes, they did that a lot on LOST, and that was also one of the worst parts of that show. It makes you want to throw things at the television. All Michonne had to say to Andrea was, "Governor tried to kill me. He killed the National Guard people. He had a zombie daughter and a room full of zombie heads in fish tanks. He's EVIL!". In fact, she could have saved them all a lot of grief if she'd just showed Andrea the bullet holes in the National Guard vehicles many episodes ago. But no... That kind of sloppy writing takes me right out of the story when it happens.

Also count me as an Andrea hater. I've disliked that character from the moment her sister died. Since then she's just been an annoying pain in the ass who can be counted on to do the stupid thing every time, while the writers are trying to convince us that she's smart and competent.

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by Human Action

You're going to have to clarify here. Are you saying that promiscuity is not a negative character trait, that the term is "overtly" sexist, what?

There's no reason to apply any negative label to Andrea's sexuality. That's the point.

[Neverender]

Can someone clue me in as to what the point of a mid season break is? As far as I know they don't really do them here in the UK. What is it being replaced with in the downtime?

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

Yes, being promiscuous is not a negative character trait.

Well, we fundamentally disagree then. I think it is, regardless of gender.

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

And even if it were, good grief, she's been celibate for like 10 months. Your promiscuous bar is set super low, as in backwoods southern preacher low.

I was referring to her sexual relationship with The Governor starting about 36 hours after meeting him. So, "promiscuous", in the sense of many partners, might not be the correct term.

[quote=Acrenray]There's no reason to apply any negative label to Andrea's sexuality. That's the point. [/quote.]

Eh. As written, she's a pretty terrible person, so I don't mind affixing any label that sticks, since I already dislike the character. Hope that makes sense.

Originally Posted by Sam Stone

Count me in as someone who really hated the gunfight. They really need to get someone on this show who can choreograph a proper battle. So they pop smoke to obscure their run across the compound, then they stop in the middle and hunker down with no cover and start trading shots with men who are shooting down on them from high cover? And Rick comes out of that completely unscathed? They were in the middle of a bloody shooting gallery. The proper thing to do would have been to pop the smoke then RUN LIKE HELL until you're under cover.

Yes. If they had to have a big gunfight, it should have been a running affair, with the rescue team falling back quickly behind smoke while the Woodbury guards struggled to locate them, then pin them down or encircle them. Perhaps some friendly fire on both sides, the group getting split up...I think that'd actually be more exciting to watch as well as more logical.

One thing I did like: the poor Woodbury guards atop the buses, silhouetted against the night sky. About the worst possible way to position yourself in a gunfight, but they were up there as part of the anti-zombie force, where visibility and mobility are king, and cover doesn't matter at all. The precautions and tactics developed to fight zombies left them vulnerable to humans, which serves the theme of the season, "fight the dead, fear the living."

Originally Posted by Sam Stone

Also count me as an Andrea hater. I've disliked that character from the moment her sister died. Since then she's just been an annoying pain in the ass who can be counted on to do the stupid thing every time, while the writers are trying to convince us that she's smart and competent.

She's easy to hate on two levels. As you say, her principal use is to make stupid decisions to drive the plot. Also, she has been defined almost entirely through her relationships with men: first Dale, then Shane, then The Governor. The latter two of whom were also her lovers, the former was implied to desire her as well. She takes on the outlook of each new man in her life, which obscures any real will of her own, other than to whine and complain. She and Lori are exhibits 1 and 2 in how poorly the show writes for women.

[Airbeck]

Originally Posted by Acsenray

There's no reason to apply any negative label to Andrea's sexuality. That's the point.

And if it's still hard to see, try imagining that the character we're talking about is male. Would the word promiscuous come to mind given the same circumstances and set of behaviors for a male character? For example, do you consider the Governor to be promiscuous? I mean we've seen him with two different women so far. Isn't that the same number for Andrea? You shouldn't have different views on these situations depending on the gender of the person in question.

edit after you posted right before this:

So you would also consider the Governor to be a promiscuous person then? Is that correct?

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by Human Action

Eh. As written, she's a pretty terrible person, so I don't mind affixing any label that sticks, since I already dislike the character. Hope that makes sense.

No, it doesn't. It's singling out the sexual behavior of a woman for scrutiny when her sexual behavior hasn't been any worse than anyone else's on the show. And also, the whole concept of promiscuity is a suspect one.

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by Airbeck

And if it's still hard to see, try imagining that the character we're talking about is male. Would the word promiscuous come to mind given the same circumstances and set of behaviors for a male character?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Airbeck

For example, do you consider the Governor to be promiscuous? I mean we've seen him with two different women so far. Isn't that the same number for Andrea?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Airbeck

You shouldn't have different views on these situations depending on the gender of the person in question.

I don't; that was your assumption.

Originally Posted by Airbeck

So you would also consider the Governor to be a promiscuous person then? Is that correct?

Absolutely. If I were listing The Governor's negative traits, it'd be something like: murderous, irrational, duplicitious, perfidious, obsessive, promiscuous. Makes Andrea look better, of course. But then, The Governor is a Villain, who exists solely to provide antagonism for the protagonist(s). Andrea is meant to be a more nuanced character, probably with an arc, but all the show has found for her to do is to complain and be wrong.

[quote=Ascenray]No, it doesn't. It's singling out the sexual behavior of a woman for scrutiny when her sexual behavior hasn't been any worse than anyone else's on the show.

I was singling her behavior out because I was talking about her. Her sexual behavior has been "better" than Shane's (attempted rape) or The Governor's (threated rape, sexual assault, even more promiscuous), I'll grant you.

Originally Posted by Ascenray

And also, the whole concept of promiscuity is a suspect one.

Concept as in worthy of moral judgement, or concept period? Because it is most certainly a concept, with a pretty clear meaning.

[Airbeck]

Are you from that town in Footloose by chance? You know the one with the town elders that think dancing is akin to fornication? She's slept with two people in the 3 seasons of the show so far. Should she be saving herself for marriage in case she meets another survivor of the zombie apocalypse that is perfect for her? What would you consider an acceptable amount of sexual behavior from one of our survivors? One person? Total celibacy?

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by Human Action

I was singling her behavior out because I was talking about her. Her sexual behavior has been "better" than Shane's (attempted rape) or The Governor's (threated rape, sexual assault, even more promiscuous), I'll grant you.

What's bad about being a rapist has nothing to do with promiscuity.

Concept as in worthy of moral judgement, or concept period? Because it is most certainly a concept, with a pretty clear meaning.

The first.

In addition to that, even if you accept promiscuity as a valid arena for moral judgment, she's not promiscuous. She's a young, single woman. In that context, her having had sexual contact with two different people over the course of a year is not even close to being promiscuous, and that's not even considering that she's living through a zombie apocalypse.

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally Posted by AngelSoft

Yes, but if you saw the previews for next season, it has a clip of Glenn running up to someone and yelling something like "What is he doing here?!". I'd assume, given his rage, it's Merle.

And then he kills him.

Originally Posted by alphaboi867

<snip>Eh, it's a post-9/11 world. "Terrorist" is just the first word that would come to mind; it sounds much more natural that vagabonds or brigands. One of which is very obviously an "escaped convict" what with being in a prison uniform. It'll certainly help the governor with his propoganda.

I thought the use of the word "terrorist" was odd, too. "Intruders" would have been the one that came to my mind.

Originally Posted by Airbeck

Are you from that town in Footloose by chance? You know the one with the town elders that think dancing is akin to fornication? She's slept with two people in the 3 seasons of the show so far. Should she be saving herself for marriage in case she meets another survivor of the zombie apocalypse that is perfect for her? What would you consider an acceptable amount of sexual behavior from one of our survivors? One person? Total celibacy?

I think Andrea is stepping up and being responsible - they have to repopulate the world, you know.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Human Action: even if we grant that promiscuity is a bad thing, how does having only two sexual partners (separated by at least nine months in time) make Andrea promiscuous? I just don't see it. How long must Andrea wait between partners to make her virtuous in your view?

Also, as the redoubtable* Acsenray has already noted, the problem with rape is not that rapists are behaving promiscuously. If it were, a man who repeatedly forced sex onto a single unwilling victim has not done anything wrong. The problem with rape is that by definition it si a violation of the victim's right to control his or her own body. Do you disagree? If so, what would you say makes rape immoral?

* I've decided to use the word redoubtable once a day every day until someone shoots me. No special reason.

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by alphaboi867

Merle told them about his brother and that he's with the group. Even if Daryl didn't talk I could see him slipping up and responding if the Gov or one of his guards called out "Daryl".

So if I knew you and you told me your brother was in Scout Troop 54, I would be able to immediately pick him out? It's not logical, and it's sloppy writing/editing.