The Walking Dead; 3.08 "Made to Suffer" (open spoilers)

[Folacin]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Human Action: even if we grant that promiscuity is a bad thing, how does having only two sexual partners (separated by at least nine months in time) make Andrea promiscuous? I just don't see it. How long must Andrea wait between partners to make her virtuous in your view?

I think that part of Human Action's issue is the speed with which Andrea hopped into bed. I'm not agreeing with that, but it's not a totally unreasonable stance.

[Folacin]

Originally Posted by Chefguy

So if I knew you and you told me your brother was in Scout Troop 54, I would be able to immediately pick him out? It's not logical, and it's sloppy writing/editing.

I don't know that you'd pick out me and my brothers, but I've got three sons (cue the saxophone!) that are pretty consistently mistaken for each other and or asked if they are twins (they aren't).

Of course, Merle and Daryl don't look that much alike - close enough to be acceptable as brothers from a casting viewpoint, but not pickable as such from a lineup.

[Scupper]

There's nothing sloppy about the Daryl thing. He wanted to see Merle anyway. He was captured. He said, "Merle is my brother" to anybody who'd listen, and somebody told the Governor. End of story.

As far as the battle over the word "promiscuous" goes, could we maybe just drop it, and not turn it into an extended discussion of what kind of crime rape is, etc? Human Action has a low opinion of the sexual behaviors of several characters in the show, including Andrea, because she slept with a guy a very short time after meeting him (and, incidentally, against the very firm advice of the person who's been looking out for her for months). I couldn't care less, but I don't think HA is wrong for thinking it's a negative character trait.

He's also right in pointing out that she is, in theory, a protagonist in this story, and is miserably written (and acted, IMO) for that role.

Speaking of miserably written, there is also Michonne and <insert whichever black guy has been allowed to live this episode, perpetually>.

[Fubaya]

I couldn't quite figure out why the gun battle happened to begin with. First, is there no other way out of town? Did that chick from Inception build this place in such a way that none of the back doors lead anywhere? I'm sure it's barricaded all around but go take your time climbing a barricade in back instead of attacking the only heavily guarded point in town. They got in secretly, did their entrance close up or something? Was it down a one way street?

Second, instead of coming out shooting, I don't see why they didn't walk down the sidewalk, staying in the shadows near the buildings until ready, or forced, to open fire. The front of those buildings looked awfully dark and had a lot of brick and concrete for cover, and the guards were looking outward. If they took a casual stroll down the sidewalk and someone did spot them, they'd probably assume they were friendlies until it was too late, but with a little luck they might have gotten out without firing a shot.

[bytheway]

Originally Posted by Meltdown

Here's a thought I had -- we don't see what transpired between The Governor and Merle after The Governor said "I was attacked" and the very last scene. Is it possible that The Governor came up with a plan so that it would look like he was about to execute Merle and Daryl, but then an "escape" would happen, such that Daryl brings Merle back to the prison, and now The Governor has a man on the inside?

This was my thought as well. In a previous episode didn't the Governor suggest Merle infiltrate the prison through his brother?

[theR]

Why did all the shooting and commotion not attract any zombies to Woodbury? It wasn't in the budget? Or the writers just didn't feel like dealing with making it more complex? Any other reasonable possibilities? It certainly wasn't consistent with noise attracting zombies, which is something we've seen as a story point.

[voltaire]

Originally Posted by Hentor the Barbarian

I didn't understand Michonne's reaction to hearing zombie noises from behind a locked grate. It would have made more sense for her to see a child and open the door.

That's the least part that bothered me about Michonne's reaction to Penny...

Oh noes, how dare you keep your zombie daughter chained up alive with a bag over her head?!? Everybody knows that you're supposed to keep them chained up with their bottom jaws removed!! What's this barbaric bag shit?!? Surely, I must kill her to put an end to her months-long indignity and misery.

Michonne is pretty much the last character who should have been the one to discover and kill Penny. If anything, it should have been Andrea - that is, if she's going to end up turning away from the Governor.

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by Acsenray

What's bad about being a rapist has nothing to do with promiscuity.

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Also, as the redoubtable* Acsenray has already noted, the problem with rape is not that rapists are behaving promiscuously. If it were, a man who repeatedly forced sex onto a single unwilling victim has not done anything wrong. The problem with rape is that by definition it si a violation of the victim's right to control his or her own body. Do you disagree? If so, what would you say makes rape immoral?

First off, I apologize to Acsenray for bungling the quote coding on his/her replies in consecutive posts.

Secondly, I was replying to this remark:

Originally Posted by Acsenray

It's singling out the sexual behavior of a woman for scrutiny when her sexual behavior hasn't been any worse than anyone else's on the show.

I was trying to point out that I didn't hold up Andrea as some sort of sexual degenerate, the worst such the show has depicted. By way of illustration, I pointed out that two of the male characters had attempted or approached forcible rape. This was meant to place Andrea's actions in context, as minor grousing directed at a character I already disliked. I did not mean to link rape and promiscuity in any way beyond being on a spectrum that could be labeled "negative sexual behavior."

Originally Posted by Folacin

I think that part of Human Action's issue is the speed with which Andrea hopped into bed. I'm not agreeing with that, but it's not a totally unreasonable stance.

This is, in fact, what I was referring to. "Promiscuous" is probably not the ideal word for that, but it was the last item in a list of negative character traits, a bit of an afterthought, so I didn't take the extra effort to search for a better term. That's my mistake.

Originally Posted by Scupper

As far as the battle over the word "promiscuous" goes, could we maybe just drop it, and not turn it into an extended discussion of what kind of crime rape is, etc? Human Action has a low opinion of the sexual behaviors of several characters in the show, including Andrea, because she slept with a guy a very short time after meeting him (and, incidentally, against the very firm advice of the person who's been looking out for her for months). I couldn't care less, but I don't think HA is wrong for thinking it's a negative character trait.

I'm fine with dropping it, and you've summed up my position better than I did myself in my initial post on this topic. I will address anyone who wants to further discuss it, though. It's not something I care deeply about either, it's perhaps the 5th worst aspect of Andrea's character's morality.

Originally Posted by Scupper

He's also right in pointing out that she is, in theory, a protagonist in this story, and is miserably written (and acted, IMO) for that role.

I think we can all agree on this point.

Originally Posted by Cat Whisperer

I thought the use of the word "terrorist" was odd, too. "Intruders" would have been the one that came to my mind.

Glad I'm not the only one, but I do try to read subtext into most any work of fiction.

Originally Posted by Scupper

There's nothing sloppy about the Daryl thing. He wanted to see Merle anyway. He was captured. He said, "Merle is my brother" to anybody who'd listen, and somebody told the Governor. End of story.

Having thought about it more, this is almost certainly what occurred. The whole reason for Daryl to head off on his own was to locate Merle, after all. Perhaps he even allowed himself to be captured (the first thing I thought when they revealed the captured Daryl was that I didn't think he'd let himself be taken alive) to facilitate the meeting, unaware that Merle's lie about Michonne had just soured Merle's relationship with The Governor. Assuming, of course, that it isn't a mole-planting operation on the part of The Governor, which I consider possible but unlikely, the white-hot rage coming from The Governor's one good eye and directed at Merle in the infirmary scene felt very real and immediate.

[wheresmymind]

I'm a day late watching the show. My first impressions (haven't read the thread yet):

What was Zombiedaughter looking at when the Gov let her out of her cage? It looked like a huge bowl of strawberry sherbet?

Seriously Michonne, would it hurt you to say "I'll go take a look around?" before ducking off into the night?

"Maggie's with Glenn, and you're a lesbian..." Bwwaahahahaha!

Holy shit, Maggie stabbed a guy in the throat with a human bone!

...aaaand Oscar's down. I guess with the introduction of two new black people it was inevitable. Lord knows they couldn't possibly have THREE of them on the show at once

Andrew Lincoln needs to either do some wrist exercises or get a lighter prop gun. His limp-wristed, can't-lift-the-barrel grip on his revolver is getting distracting.

Aww, Carl is trying to act all grown-up and jaded. Or maybe the trauma of watching his mother deliver a baby and then die has taken it's toll. Either way, I still can't stand him.

Terrorists? Come on, that's so 2000's.

You can see Andrea starting to put things together when the Gov unveils Daryl. It's starting to dawn on her that A) her boyfriend isn't the boy scout she thinks he is, and B) the invaders weren't what she thought they were either.

Who predicted the Daryl/Merle showdown last week?

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by wheresmymind

What was Zombiedaughter looking at when the Gov let her out of her cage? It looked like a huge bowl of strawberry sherbet?

Raw meat/flesh of some kind.

Originally Posted by wheresmymind

Seriously Michonne, would it hurt you to say "I'll go take a look around?" before ducking off into the night?

Or "Andrea, the reason I'm about to kill The Governor is..." Michonne is seriously committed to the idea that Andrea should trust her on principle and without evidence.

Originally Posted by wheresmymind

...aaaand Oscar's down. I guess with the introduction of two new black people it was inevitable. Lord knows they couldn't possibly have THREE of them on the show at once.

Of course not. Whenever they show two of them at the same time, we get scared.

Originally Posted by wheresmymind

Terrorists? Come on, that's so 2000's.

Agreed, they may be attempting some lame political allegory, which these writers are in no way equipped to handle.

Originally Posted by voltaire

That's the least part that bothered me about Michonne's reaction to Penny...

Oh noes, how dare you keep your zombie daughter chained up alive with a bag over her head?!? Everybody knows that you're supposed to keep them chained up with their bottom jaws removed!! What's this barbaric bag shit?!? Surely, I must kill her to put an end to her months-long indignity and misery.

Michonne is pretty much the last character who should have been the one to discover and kill Penny.

That's a good point, but on re-watch, she raises her sword to kill Penny, as she kills every zombie she can, then The Governor yells "Stop!". Michonne ends up killing her anyway, but presumably to spite The Governor, rather than out of a desire to end indignity and misery. "She doesn't have needs" sounds pretty dismissive of zombies as victims.

Speaking of that scene, after 8 episodes, Michonne got a non-scowling line! Her delivery of "It's ok, I'm not going to hurt you" was positively warm and human.

[wheresmymind]

Originally Posted by Human Action

Raw meat/flesh of some kind.

Ohhh! Haha ok that makes so much sense. I'm embarrassed to admit, I read that scene completely opposite of how it was intended. I literally thought it was some kind of ice cream/sherbet, and that her fixation on it rather than on the living prey right in front of her (the Gov) was evidence that zombies do retain some trace of their former selves. After all, a zombie would have no use for a big bowl of ice cream, but a little girl would.

Originally Posted by voltaire

Oh noes, how dare you keep your zombie daughter chained up alive with a bag over her head?!? Everybody knows that you're supposed to keep them chained up with their bottom jaws removed!! What's this barbaric bag shit?!? Surely, I must kill her to put an end to her months-long indignity and misery.

This scene almost had me yelling at the screen. In one of the few times we see Michonne break from her usual glowering, simmering expression, she displays a look that shows her shock, horror, and disgust at the thought of keeping a captive zombie. "You mutilated and kept two zombies as pets for months! What is so shocking about this to you?!?"

Like many, I disagree with the notion that Andrea is particularly "promiscuous," however one defines that word. When she shacked up with the Governor it didn't seem like she was jumping into bed particularly quickly, but what did strike me was that she managed to jump into bed with the ruler of the whole town, who also appeared to already have a girlfriend. If you ask me, her love life has proven her to be opportunistic and ambitious more than promiscuous. I've been waiting for the Gov's old girlfriend (the tour guide from their first day in Woodbury) to make another appearance. She can't be too happy about being kicked out of bed by the new girl!

[DianaG]

Originally Posted by bytheway

In a previous episode didn't the Governor suggest Merle infiltrate the prison through his brother?

He did, but that was before the woman that Merle claimed to have dutifully killed led an assault on his town, broke into his house, killed his zombie daughter and poked his eye out.

I won't rule out the MerleMole thing (because I won't rule out anything) but it seems like a lot of trust to place in a guy that fucked him over (even unwittingly), and if that is still the plan, it seems needlessly complicated and awfully risky to first subject Merle and Darryl to the wrath of Woodbury.

On the other hand, this show isn't about people behaving rationally and the Governor is, of course, extra-extra crazy, so who knows?

Originally Posted by theR

Why did all the shooting and commotion not attract any zombies to Woodbury? It wasn't in the budget? Or the writers just didn't feel like dealing with making it more complex? Any other reasonable possibilities? It certainly wasn't consistent with noise attracting zombies, which is something we've seen as a story point.

I'm hoping that the impending influx of zombies is what allows Daryl and Merle to escape.


Oh, and Andrea has had sex with two guys in a year. That's downright modest in my world, and my world isn't one where you can't expect to be alive from hour to hour. In Andrea's world, sex certainly wouldn't be one's top priority, but there's absolutely no reason to engage The Rules when the opportunity presents itself.

[obfusciatrist]

If Andrea is promiscuous for how quickly she fell into bed with the Governor then it is no more promiscuous than Maggie and Glenn for how quickly they were going at it (only a couple days in the timeline of last season) and not a lot more promiscuous than Lori in moving to Shane's bed after thinking Rick had died.

Or T Dog and Herschel (though their love remained off camera since they knew T Dog would be dead as soon as a fresh token black person was found).

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by wheresmymind

Ohhh! Haha ok that makes so much sense. I'm embarrassed to admit, I read that scene completely opposite of how it was intended. I literally thought it was some kind of ice cream/sherbet, and that her fixation on it rather than on the living prey right in front of her (the Gov) was evidence that zombies do retain some trace of their former selves. After all, a zombie would have no use for a big bowl of ice cream, but a little girl would.

I read it that zombie Penny did respond to the music and/or her father's voice, but once she noticed the meat, she was a mindless zombie again. But I am eager for signs of sentience from the zombies, so I need to rewatch that scene to make sure my take can be justified.

Originally Posted by DianaG

I won't rule out the MerleMole thing (because I won't rule out anything) but it seems like a lot of trust to place in a guy that fucked him over (even unwittingly), and if that is still the plan, it seems needlessly complicated and awfully risky to first subject Merle and Darryl to the wrath of Woodbury.

On the other hand, this show isn't about people behaving rationally and the Governor is, of course, extra-extra crazy, so who knows?

Agreed, it might happen, but it won't strike me as believeable if it does. And if The Governor has no intention of moving Woodbury to the prison, why is he so fixated on it? Just stamping out potential competition? I had thought he might take a chosen handful of residents and abandon the rest of Woodbury to move to the prison full-time, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Originally Posted by wheresmymind

I've been waiting for the Gov's old girlfriend (the tour guide from their first day in Woodbury) to make another appearance. She can't be too happy about being kicked out of bed by the new girl!

That's one of the problems with the show, the "world" feels very small. There's a clear delineation between Characters and characters; people who matter and influence the story, and people who are just there to fill space. It feels artificial, compared to a show like Justified that etches out memorable supporting characters on a weekly basis, and has a big, lived-in, living world.

Originally Posted by wheresmymind

When she shacked up with the Governor it didn't seem like she was jumping into bed particularly quickly, but what did strike me was that she managed to jump into bed with the ruler of the whole town, who also appeared to already have a girlfriend. If you ask me, her love life has proven her to be opportunistic and ambitious more than promiscuous.

That's a good point, she certainly has a thing for powerful, immoral men. "Opportunistic and ambitious" is about right. The show does spend a fair amount of time on the characters' sexual lives, so they are fair game for analysis. I think Andrea's speaks to being a bad person, when accompanied by her other flaws.

Originally Posted by obfusciatrist

If Andrea is promiscuous for how quickly she fell into bed with the Governor then it is no more promiscuous than Maggie and Glenn for how quickly they were going at it (only a couple days in the timeline of last season) and not a lot more promiscuous than Lori in moving to Shane's bed after thinking Rick had died.

You are correct on Glenn and Maggie; I think it was about 2 days. That said, I think the show served them better. Maggie initiated the sex after Glenn had comforted her over the loss of Otis, afterwards she dismissed it as a one-time thing, probably a distraction from her grief, to Glenn's dismay The two slowly, fitfully, came to realize a full, real, loving relationship.

Andrea's relationship with The Governor, by way of contrast, is tainted by his having a different lover immediately beforehand, by the benefits and power Andrea gained by it, by her choosing The Governor over her close companion and ally Michonne (twice!), and by their mutual awfulness. In contrast, Glenn and Maggie seem much more "pure."

Lori and Shane's relationship is harder to analyze, because it occured almost entirely offscreen.

[Bryan Ekers]

So any bets on how long V-Dog will last?

[SenorBeef]

Originally Posted by theR

Why did all the shooting and commotion not attract any zombies to Woodbury? It wasn't in the budget? Or the writers just didn't feel like dealing with making it more complex? Any other reasonable possibilities? It certainly wasn't consistent with noise attracting zombies, which is something we've seen as a story point.

It would make sense if woodbury ran patrols that killed the closest zombies on a regular basis. So maybe zombies on the outer edge of the sound range for the gunshots did start coming, but it'll take them 30-90 minutes to get there. Not implausible.

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by Human Action

In contrast, Glenn and Maggie seem much more "pure."

Purity, huh? Interesting.

[chinchalinchin]

Just as a sidebar; I've noticed all over the internet people up in arms about killing Oscar as soon as Tyrese was introduced. I'm not sure I understand the sentiment. The show is rather even handed with its deaths of all races, i.e. white people are killed off at the same rate. The fact the show CAN'T kill off a black character without an uproar (albeit one in the form of a muted, unimportant internet forum uproar) seems, I dunno, just as racist as people who allege the showrunners are lopsided in their portrayal of black characters.

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by Acsenray

Purity, huh? Interesting.

Pure as in genuine, lacking in ulterior motives.

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

It would make sense if woodbury ran patrols that killed the closest zombies on a regular basis. So maybe zombies on the outer edge of the sound range for the gunshots did start coming, but it'll take them 30-90 minutes to get there. Not implausible.

That's what I figured; gunshots, particularly from rifles, do carry quite a ways, and zombies are slow, so a large group of zombies might shuffle in after a few hours and menace Woodbury. If they send off an expeditionary force to attack the prison before the zombies arrive, Woodbury might fall, motivating The Governor to try drive out Rick's group and occupy the prison himself.

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by chinchalinchin

Just as a sidebar; I've noticed all over the internet people up in arms about killing Oscar as soon as Tyrese was introduced. I'm not sure I understand the sentiment. The show is rather even handed with its deaths of all races, i.e. white people are killed off at the same rate. The fact the show CAN'T kill off a black character without an uproar (albeit one in the form of a muted, unimportant internet forum uproar) seems, I dunno, just as racist as people who allege the showrunners are lopsided in their portrayal of black characters.

The details are where I find problems with the show's treatment of African-American males. T-Dog was resigned to background status; the only time he voiced a real opinion about the a decision the group made was right before he was killed, and that opinion was to sympathize with the convicts.

Oscar, who was just as mute and passive as T-Dog, was introduced in episode 302. The prison group didn't feature in episode 303. T-Dog died in episode 304.

Tyreese was introduced in episode 308. Oscar died in episode 308.

It's not black people dying that's the problem, it's the apparent quota of one such character allowed at a time, and how marginalized they are when they are alive.

[SenorBeef]

Originally Posted by chinchalinchin

Just as a sidebar; I've noticed all over the internet people up in arms about killing Oscar as soon as Tyrese was introduced. I'm not sure I understand the sentiment. The show is rather even handed with its deaths of all races, i.e. white people are killed off at the same rate. The fact the show CAN'T kill off a black character without an uproar (albeit one in the form of a muted, unimportant internet forum uproar) seems, I dunno, just as racist as people who allege the showrunners are lopsided in their portrayal of black characters.

It's not the deaths so much as the timing. An old black character must be killed as soon as a new one is introduced so that we always keep to our quota.



The more I think about it, the more I think the Epic Climactic Mid-season finale battle could've been great but ended up being stupid. It's like they spend 5 minutes figuring out the fight choreography. I mean, there are dozens of writers, stunt choreographers, armorers, etc. and they came spend some time to come up with a better execution of the big battle? It was almost nonsensical.

They should've either emphasized the previous theme of our group = hardened, woodbury = soft, or at least had our people come up with a clever plan using their initiatve. The smoke grenades were on the right track, except smoke grenades make no sense (why would a prison have those?), and they weren't even used correctly (you don't stand on the middle of a street in the middle of the smoke and fire away). They would've showed our group to be both clever, explained how a small group could take on bigger numbers, and used their environment better if instead of smoke grenades they used teargas, and they used the gas masks from the prison. It could've even been fairly organized and planned rather than the ad-hoc "throw smoke on the road and stand on it" plan that we actually saw.

We had a chance to make our group look badass, make the situation more plausible, and make a more interesting fight, but instead we got basically violence vomit all over the town.

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

It's not the deaths so much as the timing. An old black character must be killed as soon as a new one is introduced so that we always keep to our quota.

Tokenism.

[Soylent Juicy]

Originally Posted by Bone

Next, face to face with Andrea, the girl you've protected and been with for the better part of 9 months, and you can't say a single word to explain. How about, "Merle kidnapped Glenn and Maggie and I'm here with Rick to save them."

That scene drove me nuts. You'd think that Michonne would WANT Andrea on her side and against The Governer and that she'd want to expose Andrea to what a psycho the Gov. really is. Instead she just scowled and took off. What the hell.

I actually liked that prisoner until he started leering on Beth, now I'm all skeeved out by him.

Did anybody else notice Andrea accidentally refer to Penny as "Patty"?

[SenorBeef]

They make Beth seem like she's a 14 year old, and the guy has a natural skeeviness about him, so it definitely skews skeevy, but the idea of a 17 year old in a post apocalyptic world where you might only encounter a handful of women being off limits is kind of silly. I mean from an audience reaction standpoint - if the group wants to use social pressure on skeevy mcskeeverson, that's fine.

[gytalf2000]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

They make Beth seem like she's a 14 year old, and the guy has a natural skeeviness about him, so it definitely skews skeevy, but the idea of a 17 year old in a post apocalyptic world where you might only encounter a handful of women being off limits is kind of silly. I mean from an audience reaction standpoint - if the group wants to use social pressure on skeevy mcskeeverson, that's fine.

I hope that they don't kill "Mr. Skeevy" off too soon. I find him amusing!

[Elmer J. Fudd]

I don't think Axle came off as skeevy. He was very honest with Carol about what his motivation was. If he denied a sexual interest and tried to camoflage it with some bogus "just want to make friends" defense; that would be skeevy.

[Elmer J. Fudd]

Another thing that occurs to me about the Axle character is that he's been written to be an ironic counterpoint to Carl.

Carl (the child) is a dangerous cold blooded fellow with prolonged exposure to violence and a clear understanding of the new world around him.

Axle (the criminal) is naive to both the situation outside the safety of the prison and to even pre-apocalyptic social mores.

[Sister Vigilante]

Originally Posted by wheresmymind

This scene almost had me yelling at the screen. In one of the few times we see Michonne break from her usual glowering, simmering expression, she displays a look that shows her shock, horror, and disgust at the thought of keeping a captive zombie. "You mutilated and kept two zombies as pets for months! What is so shocking about this to you?!?"

I don't think Michonne knew it was a zombie girl until she took the mask off. If she had, she wouldn't have bothered even taking it off, and she especially wouldn't have freed the child or put her sword down. She's have just killed it.

[AngelSoft]

Originally Posted by Sister Vigilante

I don't think Michonne knew it was a zombie girl until she took the mask off. If she had, she wouldn't have bothered even taking it off, and she especially wouldn't have freed the child or put her sword down. She's have just killed it.

Yes, and despite the zombie like sounds she heard, the girl was wearing immaculate clothing. That's just not something you see on a zombie, ever. So I assumed that's what made her think it was a normal child.

[SenorBeef]

She could've interpreted the girl, I suppose, as feral - like if she were a real girl locked up by the evil governor for some reason. But yeah, kind of ridiculous.

I'm not sure if it's written that way. It seems to me sometimes that sound guys go off on their owns to add elements to a scene that would betray the writers intent. The scene would make a lot more sense without the zombie noises, and it's plausible that the girl/zombie would keep quiet for a few moments, so why not portray it that way?

[Acsenray]

It seems obvious to me that Michonne thought that Penny was an imprisoned, living girl until she yanked off the hood. I'm not sure why that's ridiculous.

[SenorBeef]

It's ridiculous because of the obvious zombie sounds playing when that happened, which is why it makes the character look stupid. The scene clearly called for silence. I have a hard time believing the writer actually called for the zombie sound (which ruins the suspense, since we're expecting Michone to figure it out before she gets in danger), so I suspect the sound guys were being dumb.

[Sam Stone]

As for some zombies retaining a hint of their former selves, wasn't that established in the very first episode of the series? Rick was taken in by a man and his son, and the man's wife was zombified and wandering around outside. She wouldn't leave the area because she was somehow drawn to the house, and when he went to shoot her she stopped and stared quizzically at the house as if trying to remember something.

On the other hand, the doctor at CDC showed them the MRI that indicated that the entire brain was dead except for the tiny part that regulates a few base instincts like moving and eating. So it's a contradiction. But I'm sure they at least hinted that some zombies retain a part of themselves right from the beginning.

[Sam Stone]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

She could've interpreted the girl, I suppose, as feral - like if she were a real girl locked up by the evil governor for some reason. But yeah, kind of ridiculous.

I'm not sure if it's written that way. It seems to me sometimes that sound guys go off on their owns to add elements to a scene that would betray the writers intent. The scene would make a lot more sense without the zombie noises, and it's plausible that the girl/zombie would keep quiet for a few moments, so why not portray it that way?

I think you're right. I'd chalk that up to a production error. It's clear the writers wanted Michonne to think that it was a live little girl in there, and the zombie noises totally worked against that. I'll bet the script just said something like "Michonne hears scraping noises and investigates", and in post someone said, "okay, scene with little zombie girl. Needs some noise for Michonne. Cue our standard zombie breathing and grunting!"

[Human Action]

Originally Posted by Sam Stone

As for some zombies retaining a hint of their former selves, wasn't that established in the very first episode of the series? Rick was taken in by a man and his son, and the man's wife was zombified and wandering around outside. She wouldn't leave the area because she was somehow drawn to the house, and when he went to shoot her she stopped and stared quizzically at the house as if trying to remember something.

She went further than that, actually coming to the door and turning the knob. There are other indications like that, but all but one are from the Frank Darabont era of the the show. Under the Glen Mazzara regime, the only occurance like that was a walker trying to avoid Rick's revolver in "18 Miles Out", which was much more ambiguous than the other instances. I'd like for the idea to be portrayed on the show going forward.

Originally Posted by Sam Stone

On the other hand, the doctor at CDC showed them the MRI that indicated that the entire brain was dead except for the tiny part that regulates a few base instincts like moving and eating. So it's a contradiction. But I'm sure they at least hinted that some zombies retain a part of themselves right from the beginning.

It's not out of the question that in some zombies, a bit of the remaining electrical activity could "light up" a part of the higher brain functions.

Originally Posted by Sam Stone

I think you're right. I'd chalk that up to a production error. It's clear the writers wanted Michonne to think that it was a live little girl in there, and the zombie noises totally worked against that. I'll bet the script just said something like "Michonne hears scraping noises and investigates", and in post someone said, "okay, scene with little zombie girl. Needs some noise for Michonne. Cue our standard zombie breathing and grunting!"

Yep, the sound mix really harmed that scene. You'd think more attention would be paid to these matters, on a show with the ratings TWD gets.

Originally Posted by Sister Vigilante

I don't think Michonne knew it was a zombie girl until she took the mask off. If she had, she wouldn't have bothered even taking it off, and she especially wouldn't have freed the child or put her sword down. She's have just killed it.

Indeed, upon revealing the zombie-Penny, Michonne immediately raises her sword to kill her, before being interrupted by The Governor.

Originally Posted by Elmer J Fudd

I don't think Axle came off as skeevy. He was very honest with Carol about what his motivation was. If he denied a sexual interest and tried to camoflage it with some bogus "just want to make friends" defense; that would be skeevy.

I though he was refreshingly honest and human about it, though my girlfriend found him creepy. The lesbian/short haircut exchange with Carol added some much needed levity to the episode.

[gytalf2000]

Originally Posted by Human Action

The lesbian/short haircut exchange with Carol added some much needed levity to the episode.

Yeah, I'm hoping for more scenes like that. The series can be pretty grim and dark -- why not have an occasional laugh? A little variety is a good thing!

[wheresmymind]

Huh. I seem to remember her being shocked/disgusted after removing the hood, but I could be wrong. But my impression was that her reaction to the whole room (the heads in tanks, the little girl) was one of incredulous shock, like "Oh my God... The Governors even more crazy than I thought!" when she herself has done similar things.

Here's a thought about the floating heads: have we ever seen the Governor kill a zombie? Is it possible the heads represent the zombie's he's had to dispatch? He seems to have a soft spot for people who've turned, and is determined to find out if/how they can be cured. Could it be that he keeps them to assuage his guilt over the wholesale massacre of beings that he seems to believe are simply very sick human beings? Perhaps he considers himself the one person with faith in them surrounded by a sea of people who think they're beyond help.

...or maybe the reason he gave Andrea is the full truth (that he kept them on hand to desensitize himself to them, to control his fear).

[DigitalC]

His zombie head display explanation to Andrea actually made me go "That...sorta makes some sense".

[Acsenray]

I'm not sure it's entirely fair to say that she has done something similar. She kept her two traveling companions in order to ward off other walkers. That's a very practical purpose. And not really comparable to what the governor was doing.

[gytalf2000]

Originally Posted by Acsenray

I'm not sure it's entirely fair to say that she has done something similar. She kept her two traveling companions in order to ward off other walkers. That's a very practical purpose. And not really comparable to what the governor was doing.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. She was just doing what she had to do to survive.

[DigitalC]

Having some hope left that there might some day be a cure or that there might be something human left in them doesn't really strike me as all that horrible either though.

[SenorBeef]

Curing a seperated head might be kind of a dick move.

[DigitalC]

I'm talking about the daughter. He said the heads were about acclimatizing himself to the horrors outside.

[Eyebrows 0f Doom]

Originally Posted by Acsenray

I'm not sure it's entirely fair to say that she has done something similar. She kept her two traveling companions in order to ward off other walkers. That's a very practical purpose. And not really comparable to what the governor was doing.

I thought her zombies were related to her? Not that it was stated out loud but I thought that was the impression we were supposed to get. So yeah count me in as another who didn't get her whole OMG how horrible reaction to the Governor keeping his zombie daughter chained up.

[Acsenray]

Regardless of whether they have been related to her in some way while alive she kept them for a practical purpose and got rid of them when she needed to without hesitation. She didn't keep them in her bedroom because she was still in love with them.

[LurkerInNJ]

Was I the only one laughing at how quickly Carl offered to put a bullet in the other kids mom's head?

[SenorBeef]

Originally Posted by DigitalC

I'm talking about the daughter. He said the heads were about acclimatizing himself to the horrors outside.

Oh, woops.

Keeping your daughter alive because you think a part of her might be in there is actually a bigger dick move. You have to think that A) part of your daughter's mind is in there somewhere but that B) she's undergoing a horror beyond comprehension, forced to live in this horrible state, having something else control you, your body rotting while you're traped inside...

I thought the same thing about Hershel's barn. If you love someone, and you think they're still sort of in there, then kill the fuck out of them immediately. Prolonging their existance as a zombie is horrible, and the fact that you can't pull the trigger is a moral failing - you're forcing them to suffer through that existance because you're not strong enough to come to terms with the situation.

[Odesio]

Let's not be too kind to the Governor regarding those heads. After all, many of those heads probably belonged to his victims rather.

[Airbeck]

Originally Posted by Odesio

Let's not be too kind to the Governor regarding those heads. After all, many of those heads probably belonged to his victims rather.

Well we know that the helicopter pilot's head was one of them, and he was alive when it was cut off presumably. So yeah, lets not go too easy on the guy. A lot of people are finding ways to cope with this new world, and so far I'm not aware of anyone else that keeps heads in fish tanks as a part of this process.

[Shark Sandwich]

I got the impression that up until this episode, we were supposed to see the Governor as "kinda crazy." The killing of his daughter and having his eye skewered has advanced that to "full-blown batshit crazy."