Do you consider yourself a feminist?

[DiosaBellissima]

Why or why not?

And I'm intentionally not defining 'feminist' because, well, it means different things to different people. So, I'm curious what YOU consider yourself.

Poll to follow.

[Rachellelogram]

Yup, although more of the slacktivist version. I've never gone out and done anything "real." I've just counseled many advice-seekers about feminist principles online, and have espoused feminist arguments when the stars align with my mood (not often anymore, I got tired of fighting that particular never-ending shitpile of ignorance).

I also don't shave my legs, but am still willing to wear shorts in public. I dunno if that counts, though... it's really more out of laziness than anything else.

[ZipperJJ]

Yeah. I'm not what others might conjure up when they hear that word. Maybe not even what the dictionary would say is a feminist. But I believe in gender equality (yep even drafting women if it came to that) and don't think that my gender should hold me back or make me any different than anyone else, so I think that makes me a feminist.

[tdn]

Yes, but without some of the more ridiculous trappings associated with that word. I refuse to hate myself just because I was born a man. And I like girly girls.

[DiosaBellissima]

Originally Posted by tdn

Yes, but without some of the more ridiculous trappings associated with that word.

What do you consider the more ridiculous trappings of feminism?

[Inner Stickler]

I am absolutely a feminist and I don't see why one would believe that being a feminist would require hating one's manhood or girly girls. The beauty of feminism is its freedom. I choose which boxes I exist in, if any, and respect others in their choices.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima

What do you consider the more ridiculous trappings of feminism?

That men are despised, and that women need to emulate the most despicable aspects of masculinity.

That it's not OK for men to be masculine and not OK for women to be feminine.

This was a major thing in the 90s. Thankfully, it seems to have mellowed out a lot since then. But things were pretty extreme for a while.

[DiosaBellissima]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

I am absolutely a feminist and I don't see why one would believe that being a feminist would require hating one's manhood or girly girls.

I can't tell you how many times people have responded to my self identification as a feminist with something like, "But. . . you're a girly girl. How can you be a feminist?" Sigh. Anyway, this is just an excuse to post one of my favorite feminist quotes from Naomi Wolf: “For I conclude that the enemy is not lipstick, but guilt itself; that we deserve lipstick, if we want it, AND free speech; we deserve to be sexual AND serious--or whatever we please; we are entitled to wear cowboy boots to our own revolution.”

And tdn, while I've certainly seen a very small "anti-man" minority amongst feminists (and I do mean small), I fear that what you're describing is a huge part of the anti-feminist propaganda machine that's been churning along quite well since the time of the suffragettes. "They want to wear pants, LIKE MEN!" ads decried. It's because of that virtually nonexistent in the real world nonsense that many women today say, "I'm not a feminist, but--"

[Inner Stickler]

That's a great quote.

[StGermain]

I'm a woman, not a girly-girl, and I voted that I'm not a feminist. I think it's a dated concept. I'm 51 years old and I can't say that my gender has ever denied me any opportunities. There have been things in my life that I didn't do, but I won't say it's because of my gender, mostly because of my personal lack of ambition. Even as a child in the '60's, my parents treated we kids as equal, with my brother as likely to be told to do the dishes and me to help my father reset a toilet.

StG

[Jragon]

I refuse to identify as a feminist because it means so many different things to different people, it's just begging for somebody to assume things about your positions that you don't intend. I do agree with some feminists the vast majority of the time, but then there are others who are either bonkers or have ideas I find deplorable. They're all unambiguously feminists, so I just refuse to give myself the label because at this point it barely means anything. Even when you get into specifics like "rape culture", I will often be a vocal opponent of the term and theory, but in truth there are some definitions of it I totally can get behind, and others that are just hilariously overblown.

[Inner Stickler]

And Fred Phelps apparently considers himself a democrat. He no more scares me off of classifying myself as a democrat than Dworkin puts me off of being a feminist. If we all give up on being called feminists because people think feminism=man-hating than all that's left of feminism is the man hate.

[Sattua]

I'm a woman, I'm 32, and I guess I feel post-feminist. Like I live in a world in which gender is 100% not an issue unless you're dealing with the kind of people you'd rather not deal with anyway.

Having said that, I believe that on the whole men and women tend to think in different ways and be good at different things, but only in a statistical kind of way that means nothing about the individual. But it doesn't occur to me that any opportunities should be formally different for the two.

[Nzinga, Seated]

I consider myself a feminist because there are topics that society considers 'female issues' that I feel super duper strongly about (abortion and slut shaming, for starters). So, even though people will misunderstand me often because of the fuzzy definitions of 'feminism', I will just go ahead and risk being misunderstood and accept the label.

That is a great quote by Wolf. Love that.

[kayaker]

I'm a guy. I thought everything was worked out, feminist-wise.

[DiosaBellissima]

I genuinely find it fascinating for folks-- especially women-- who think we live in a post-feminist society (in that feminism isn't needed anymore). Several times in my carer, I've had clients flat out refuse to speak to me and say things like, "Honey, I need to speak to a MAN, ok?" I coach high school debate and my female students regularly get comments back on their ballots that say things like, "You're so pretty! Why are you so argumentative?" or "It's not very ladylike to be so argumentative." Seriously. And yes, I lose those ballots before I give them to the girls. This happens multiple times a year. (And no, the boys' ballots never say things even remotely in that same ball park about their looks, attitudes, or demeanors).

Granted, we all have our own experiences, so I'm not knocking anybody who has gotten through life without experiencing this stuff, it's just interesting to me. And of course, as Nzinga, Seated mentions, that isn't even touching on things like abortion (or even contraception) and slut-shaming.

[Odesio]

Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima

And I'm intentionally not defining 'feminist' because, well, it means different things to different people. So, I'm curious what YOU consider yourself.

No, but I do believe in gender equality. I don't like being called a feminist because I don't feel included as a man. And before anyone says that's stupid there are plenty of women who don't feel included when someone says mankind. I wouldn't be offended if someone called me a feminist I'd just never use the word to describe myself.

[Inner Stickler]

See, I don't have that problem because I've never thought of feminism being about bringing women ahead of me but bringing them forward to my level.

Edit: The idea of being pro-woman necessarily entailing being anti-man is as silly to me as saying "I like muffins" and being asked, "Why do you hate cupcakes so?"

[Der Trihs]

I'm of the "I don't call myself a feminist but I believe in equal rights for women" persuasion.

Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima

And tdn, while I've certainly seen a very small "anti-man" minority amongst feminists (and I do mean small), I fear that what you're describing is a huge part of the anti-feminist propaganda machine that's been churning along quite well since the time of the suffragettes.

Some of it is that. But much of it is because the feminists themselves let the anti-male faction take control of the message for a long time. And personally I really doubt that it's a "small minority"; and back around the 90s when feminism was loudest in this country as far as I can tell it was the majority by far. Certainly if there was a silent majority, it was very silent; even being pro-sex was wildly radical among feminists, much less regarding men as human. Feminism for quite some time in this country was about hatred; especially of men, but of women too in many ways. I recall an international feminist convention at the time where the Russian delegation collectively stormed out calling the American feminists "Stalinists", which was a fair comparison.

[GuanoLad]

I think expecting to be treated like anybody else shouldn't be an "-ism" but basic human rights.

[Rigamarole]

Feminism, yuck. I think feminism is essentially the harbinger of the apocalypse, so no.

[Jragon]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

Feminism for quite some time in this country was about hatred; especially of men, but of women too in many ways.

There still is, to some degree, a lot of very vocal, well known feminist bloggers that really like to bandy around terms like "misogynist" and "gender traitor" to mean "person who disagrees with me." It can be very tiring, and come off as anti-man because any man who says, for instance "hey, guys, I think porn might be empowering" (or whatever other position that particular blogger may not agree with) they instantly become a willing perpetrator of rape culture, someone proud of the patriarchy, and an active misogynist. Though note when I said "gender traitor", I never felt they were really "anti-man" because they throw about "gender traitor" with about the same frequency, even if it can feel that way sometimes.

ETA: I forgot to mention that I think they're the minority, they just happen to be quite vocal.

[SpoilerVirgin]

I am a feminist, and have been all my life, certainly I've identified as one since 1976. I have never felt that feminism was anti-man, or fascist, or too strident for me. I was about to say that I'm a girly girl, but in many ways I'm not. I think of myself as quintessentially feminine and love my gender, but I have never worn makeup or high heels, or dressed in a remotely provocative way. I think that's the heart of my feminism -- that I am free to be a woman, with the heart and soul of a woman, without taking on the societally-defined trappings of womanhood. And of course I fully support equality, non-discrimination, and the right to choose abortion.

[woodstockbirdybird]

Originally Posted by Rigamarole

Feminism, yuck. I think feminism is essentially the harbinger of the apocalypse, so no.

WTF are you talking about?

[I Made French Toast For You]

I'm a man and consider myself a feminist, with "feminist" defined as "someone who supports women's rights toward equality".

Which is probably why I'm utterly flabbergasted whenever anyone proclaims that they aren't a feminist. I wasn't around for the majority of the movement, however, so I and other young-ish people might not understand all of its history and connotations.

[Jragon]

Originally Posted by I Made French Toast For You

I'm a man and consider myself a feminist, with "feminist" defined as "someone who supports women's rights toward equality".

Which is probably why I'm utterly flabbergasted whenever anyone proclaims that they aren't a feminist. I wasn't around for the majority of the movement, however, so I and other young-ish people might not understand all of its history and connotations.

I've always considered myself a feminist under that definition. Hell, I'm a member of Women in Computer Science where I actively work to help get women into STEM fields where they're sorely underrepresented. Honestly, off the internet, I'd probably just say I'm a feminist.

It's just that there's so many waves and schools of feminism that "feminist" by itself tends to be a very fuzzy term. Are you sex-positive? Do you support (most) existing porn? Do you think porn IN THEORY is bad? Do you think women (primarily) are actively/subconsciously discriminated against in the workplace by men, or are merely underrepresented in some fields because of their own choices due to social conditioning? Answers to all of these questions and more can radically change whether or not a given person accepts you as a feminist. The reason why, on the internet, I don't identify as feminist is I've had far too many people tell me I'm not really a feminist (or worse, actively misogynist) because I don't subscribe to their particular school. Starting off from the position of "I'm just a guy with some views on things" tends to at least lead to mutual criticism of viewpoints instead of the conversation derailment about what does/does not constitute "feminism."

[PSXer]

No, I don't hate men

[Jragon]

Originally Posted by PSXer

No, I don't hate men

Aww, you mean you don't support the femitheist global initiative? I am offended, sir.

But seriously, she's crazy, and also not representative of feminists in general

[Slithy Tove]

If one believes in feminism's core values doesn't that make one a feminist?

Before you answer that, consider that unemployment insurance, wage and price controls, public education, etc. were once solely the domain of Marxists.

[Der Trihs]

Yeah; if someone thinks that people in general should be treated equally and well, given equal opportunity & freedoms and so forth, but doesn't have any special emphasis on women is he/she a feminist or not?

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

Yeah; if someone thinks that people in general should be treated equally and well, given equal opportunity & freedoms and so forth, but doesn't have any special emphasis on women is he/she a feminist or not?

For once, I agree with you Der Trihs. I am a single father raising two young daughters who I love more than anything else in the world and I was raised by a single mother who is the epitome of everything feminists claim they strive for yet she hates them.

I believe in equal rights in almost all ways but the label 'feminist' is loaded with so much bullshit that I don't think any self-respecting person, especially males, should be associated with it unless you are trying to get laid at a hippie festival.

I never bought bought the argument that 'feminism' is supposed to about sex equality on both sides. It is a branding issue that should be obvious any 1st year marketing student. Men have legitimate discrimination issues too especially when it comes to divorce and custody battles but there are plenty of others.

If it is really supposed to be about unbiased sex equality, change the name, put up a platform that addresses all forms of sex discrimination and then we will talk. Until then, I am not identifying myself with such a dishonest and schizophrenic movement. This is a left-leaning board so you will get lots of biased responses but this is the one that most normal people would agree with.

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

I am absolutely a feminist and I don't see why one would believe that being a feminist would require hating one's manhood or girly girls. The beauty of feminism is its freedom. I choose which boxes I exist in, if any, and respect others in their choices.

That's funny; that's almost exactly why I *don't* define myself as a feminist!

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

<snip> Feminism for quite some time in this country was about hatred; especially of men, but of women too in many ways.<snip>

Not just in the US; there were plenty of Canadian feminists who only wanted women to live the way the feminists thought they should.

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

Yeah; if someone thinks that people in general should be treated equally and well, given equal opportunity & freedoms and so forth, but doesn't have any special emphasis on women is he/she a feminist or not?

That's it; that's my belief. I believe everyone should live their lives the way they want to, and have the freedom to do so. I think having a feminist label is too restrictive of my beliefs.

[Implicit]

Absolutely. Pass the cowboy boots and the cupcakes.

[Two Many Cats]

I wear the banner of "feminist" proudly.

I can remember plenty of times when women would preface a comment with "I'm no feminist, but..." and then go on to argue for some feminist issue.

I would always think to myself, why the hell aren't you a feminist? Don't let the goddamn sexist backlash of the last few years make you ashamed of yourself. Stand tall! Feminists changed this world for the better, and the fight is still going on. We need all the feminists we can get.

[CairoCarol]

I'm a 54-year-old graduate of a Seven Sisters school. Naturally, I'm a feminist.

It's not up to me to tell younger women (whether or not they self-identify as feminists) how to approach the subject, though. Times have changed so much (markedly for the better) since the 1970s when I came of age. Each generation has to find their own way forward.

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by Two Many Cats

I wear the banner of "feminist" proudly.

I can remember plenty of times when women would preface a comment with "I'm no feminist, but..." and then go on to argue for some feminist issue.

I would always think to myself, why the hell aren't you a feminist? Don't let the goddamn sexist backlash of the last few years make you ashamed of yourself. Stand tall! Feminists changed this world for the better, and the fight is still going on. We need all the feminists we can get.

Well, because anyone that views it that way is a bigot just like any other including the White Power and Black Power movements. Correct me if I am wrong but the new feminism is supposed to be about general equality among the sexes. It is a lie of course. Most people that casually associate themselves with it do believe that but the Women's Studies departments in colleges across the country do have a divisive agenda that has branched off into theories so strange they can only be compared to semi-religious mythology.

What arguments were your friends making that makes you believe they need to be feminists rather just normal people with rational views and why do you feel the need to force a label on them rather than just view them as people with a certain viewpoint?

[Muffin]

Yes. Fem lit M.A. thesis.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Two Many Cats

I can remember plenty of times when women would preface a comment with "I'm no feminist, but..." and then go on to argue for some feminist issue.

I would always think to myself, why the hell aren't you a feminist? Don't let the goddamn sexist backlash of the last few years make you ashamed of yourself.

It isn't just about any sexist backlash; it's about men who don't like being sneered at for no fault of their own, women who don't want the men in their lives treated like that, and women who don't want to be dictated to on how to live their lives even if the person doing the dictating has breasts and calls herself a feminist.

[ladyfoxfyre]

Well I guess that settles it, the men certainly know better than we do what feminism is or isn't, and they do not care for it. They do not care for it AT ALL.

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by kayaker

I'm a guy. I thought everything was worked out, feminist-wise.

Hehe. Mea Culpa. I kept wondering why nobody mentioned The Equal Rights Amendment. turns out it never got ratified.

I back away from my prior stance. In my defense, I pay male and female employees equally, and am not a bad guy overall.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by ladyfoxfyre

Well I guess that settles it, the men certainly know better than we do what feminism is or isn't, and they do not care for it.

As has been pointed out, there is no agreement on what "real" feminism is, including by women calling themselves feminists.

And if someone asks a man if he's a feminist, he certainly has a perfect right to decide what it is he's being asked about and clarify his answer.

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by kayaker

Hehe. Mea Culpa. I kept wondering why nobody mentioned The Equal Rights Amendment. turns out it never got ratified.

The ERA was a stupid idea in general although somewhat understandable at the time it was introduced. You can't just add stuff the Constitution and expect to have control over what consequences it will have decades or centuries later. In defense of earlier feminism, they already achieved the vast majority of their goals and it was probably the most successful social movement ever but the need for it is gone now. You just get a bunch of flakes pushing their alternate version of bigotry among a small of group intellectual masturbators trying to force other people to adopt their divisive ideology.

They still cal themselves progressives or liberals in general but they are anything but that. It is time to move on, rethink, relabel, and get with the 21st century. That is what reasonable progressives and liberals should strive for (equal rights for all regardless of sex) but th irony is that true feminists are still hopelessly stuck in the past.

[Ibanez]

Things women fought for in regarding women's rights/equality I absolutley agree with it. e.g. My team leader is a woman, the CEO of where I work is a woman. Women are well represented, well paid and well respected where I work. In an organization of over three thousand. Comapred to how women are treated in other parts of the world I believe our western culture is doing quite well in this regard.

There's was just too much, and there still is a very vocal minority of woo-hoo misandric bullshit associated to feminism, so as a male. I will never say I am a feminist. I realize of course most women who identify themselves as feminist don't fall into the koo-koo for co-co puffs category. But it's the nutty vocal minority that's a big turn off.

On the flipside, I've been paying attention to the MRM and men's issues for a couple of years now. A lot of the issues they discuss affecting men are very real. Reproductive rights, custody and divorce issues. But just like feminism the MRM and MRA have their mysognistic nutters. I've lurked some of the forums, read the posts and said to myself there's no way I want to be part of this. It's obvious some of these guys hate women. I don't.

So if anything I'm all for true equal rights for both genders. Not a feminist, not a MRA. Humanist ?

[elfkin477]

Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima

I genuinely find it fascinating for folks-- especially women-- who think we live in a post-feminist society (in that feminism isn't needed anymore). Several times in my carer, I've had clients flat out refuse to speak to me and say things like, "Honey, I need to speak to a MAN, ok?" I coach high school debate and my female students regularly get comments back on their ballots that say things like, "You're so pretty! Why are you so argumentative?" or "It's not very ladylike to be so argumentative." Seriously. And yes, I lose those ballots before I give them to the girls. This happens multiple times a year. (And no, the boys' ballots never say things even remotely in that same ball park about their looks, attitudes, or demeanors).

I'm 35. I've never once heard a girl or woman, me or otherwise, being told anything remotely like any of these statements outside of the pages of a book or off a tv screen. Stories told by other women from the times before I was born, sure, but no first hand experience or witnessing. I know such sexism still exists, but it's hardly as pervasive in the US as some would make it out to be.

But anyway, I'm pro-life. I don't identify as feminist.

[Two Many Cats]

Originally Posted by Shagnasty

What arguments were your friends making that makes you believe they need to be feminists rather just normal people with rational views and why do you feel the need to force a label on them rather than just view them as people with a certain viewpoint?

Oh, little unimportant things like inequality in pay scales and promotions, expectations about family care, the rampant lookism in society, double standards, stuff like that.

Whether men (or women) know it or not, sexism is still a problem. And feminists have the right to address what are specifically women's issues without being made to feel like they are being selfish by claiming a term which specifically relates to those issues. Of course, we are for equal rights for all, men and women. But women still have matters to attend to for themselves.

Just today, someone winning the lottery offered a million to build a sports stadium for their local school on one condition. They stipulated that the visiting team's locker room be painted pink. The condition was granted.

Harmless, right? But think about it. Pink is a girl's color, so the visiting boys sports teams would be dressing in a (gasp!) pink room! Like a bunch of girly girls. So the home team would have an instant psychological advantage, ha, ha, ha.

The donor said she made the stipulation as a joke. It no doubt was. But the meaning still lingers. Boys are better than girls. Pink equals women equals demeaning.

But don't mind me, I'm just a cranky feminist witch.

[Two Many Cats]

Originally Posted by ladyfoxfyre

Well I guess that settles it, the men certainly know better than we do what feminism is or isn't, and they do not care for it. They do not care for it AT ALL.

Preach it!!!!

[Lynn Bodoni]

Originally Posted by StGermain

I'm a woman, not a girly-girl, and I voted that I'm not a feminist. I think it's a dated concept. I'm 51 years old and I can't say that my gender has ever denied me any opportunities. There have been things in my life that I didn't do, but I won't say it's because of my gender, mostly because of my personal lack of ambition. Even as a child in the '60's, my parents treated we kids as equal, with my brother as likely to be told to do the dishes and me to help my father reset a toilet.

StG

I'm 55. And my parents absolutely did not make my brother do girly chores, and my sister and I were not allowed to do masculine things. If I wanted to help my father when he was doing woodworking, I was told to go help my mother clean house, for instance. I was not allowed to have a regular job after school, but it was OK for me to have random babysitting jobs.

In one high school, I was not allowed to take wood shop. Nor was I allowed to take a second year of science, I was put into a Home Ec class instead. That state allowed girls to take a year of Home Ec instead of the second year of science. The particular high school that I went to decided that just about all the girls needed to be in Home Ec, and my parents agreed that it was better for me, despite the fact that I was intensely interested in science.

So our mileage varies. I think that both of our experiences are valid...and I think that this points up the need for legislation to REQUIRE that all students have the same curriculum, that both boys and girls can take any class that they want to.

For a while, I was on a business mailing list, and I used a male name for it. I was contacted off list by other male names, and sometimes they'd gripe about women. It was...eye opening.

[Anafiel]

Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima

And tdn, while I've certainly seen a very small "anti-man" minority amongst feminists (and I do mean small), I fear that what you're describing is a huge part of the anti-feminist propaganda machine that's been churning along quite well since the time of the suffragettes. "They want to wear pants, LIKE MEN!" ads decried. It's because of that virtually nonexistent in the real world nonsense that many women today say, "I'm not a feminist, but--"

Ad campaigns *LOVE* to co-opt movements and exploit and twist their messages to turn a profit, and media pundits love to create controversy to increase viewership. Neither advertising nor mass media journalism really cares about providing a nuanced treatment of a concept; they just want soundbites, and then these soundbites get twisted and of course the most extreme elements get covered more often, and then the movement runs the risk of being derailed because the tail is wagging the dog. I think this is the main reason why the number of women who identify as feminists has waned over the last decade.

[Slithy Tove]

If men can't be feminists (that is: engage analytical/critical, participate in its evolution, etc.) then by that same token white women can't be not-racists. Indeed, anatomy is destiny.

Sheesh, even Malcolm X regretted his response to the well-intentioned white college woman who asked what she could do to help: "nothing." But us men may participate only by rescinding whatever privileges we have been judged guilty of holding.

Right now, the most powerful feminist on earth is, by your reasoning, wasting her time since she herself is not Syrian and has no firsthand knowledge of what it takes to govern Syria.

[FlyByNight512]

"I'm not angry because I'm a feminist, I'm a feminist because I'm angry." - nope, don't remember where the quote is from.

I don't think I've run into blatant sexism IRL, but our culture still has a hell of a lot of nasty subtext going on. The only way to get rid of it is to call it out and make people aware of it. So I guess that makes me a feminist.

And yes, there's a hell of a lot of nasty subtext out there about men, too, which also needs to be gotten rid of. The feminists I hang out with are well aware of it and fight that too. Ironically, the same myths tend to top the list of most harmful for both men and women. "Men are controlled by their boners" is a big one right now, so is the "women are emotional, men are logical" split.

The 'feminists hate men' thing is a straw man, and a very tired one. I think I've seen one or two man-haters. Online. Considering that online misogyny is generally considered completely invalid as evidence of actual sexism in the world at large, I'm going to go ahead and dismiss the tiny amount of man hating I've seen online as well.