Can a bar bouncer grab some drunk and run him out the door without going to jail for assault? I was at a bar once in which some drunk was refusing to leave. He wasn’t doing anything illegal that I was aware of, except for the trespassing thing, I guess, but, next thing I knew, the bouncer had grabbed his arm, started dragging drunk to door, and had him almost to the door before the drunk fell. No damage, but the drunk got up and still refused to leave. Then, the drunk threw a few punches at the bouncer. Fight ensued. Drunk loses, drunk calls cops because he has a bloody nose. Cops ask bouncer what happened. Bouncer hems, haws and says something like 'trying to get drunk to leave…drunk threw punches…mumble, mumble…" doesn’t mention the grabbing and dragging. Fortunately, for bouncer, the drunk tells the cops “Fuck You”. Case closed. Drunk goes to jail.
So, technically, could the drunk have pressed charges against the bouncer for assault/battery/anything related to the dragging and grabbing?
The urban myth “if you touch me I can charge you with assualt” only applies if you are innocently walking down the street and someone touches you in a threatening manner.
If you are on my employer’s property and are asked to leave, I can use “reasonable force” to back up that request. Many Cadillacs have been bought by lawyers arguing on the clock about “reasonable”, but (reasonably) I imagine it goes like this:
I ask you to leave of your own volition. You refuse.
I can then escort you manually to the door. I can take you by the arm and move you there.
(I assume in most cases, the bouncer has the size to make this happen.)
I cannot hit him, I cannot slap him, I cannot grip in such a way as to inflict pain or injury.
(basically, reasonable, appropriate force).
If you fall (damn drunk!) while walking, that is your problem. I will do my best not to let you injure yourself, but basically I can’t walk for you.
If you resist, go limp, I may need to amp up the effort needed to remove you. Still not allowed to hit or inflict pain or injury.
If you attempt to hit me, I am allowed to use “reasonable force” to defend myself.
(That word again!)
Ie. no greater force than is used against me, only enough to stop the attack, stop when it’s over (can’t keep on beating the guy to a pulp when he’s down and out; can’t use a heavy weapon against mere fists, etc.)
It’s a fine line. And in the end, it comes down to how much of a dick the cops want to be and what a jury believes.
Plus, bouncers generally put up with the same drunks as police, the last thing police usually to do is make trouble for them.
“Press charges” isn’t really a legal term. It implies that the police are required to do something if you say “I want to press charges;” or that they’re required to let someone go if you say you want to “drop” them. Neither of which is true. The police get to make the initial decision as to whether (a) there’s probable cause to arrest anybody, and (b) if there is, whether they actually want to do it.
Drunks get thrown out of bars everyday. If anybody goes to jail over it, it’s likely to be the drunk, not the bouncers. For one thing, you’re way more likely to go to jail if you’re calling the cops “fuckheads” than if you’re not.
Sorry; to answer your question: Yes, the police could have arrested the bouncer, and sometimes they do. But for a bunch of reasons it’s way more likely to be the drunk going to jail, and not the bouncer. And “pressing charges” doesn’t really come into it.
Firstly, I am a criminal defense lawyer. Secondly, it is worth pointing out that the bolded isn’t technically true in all states. In MD, my home state, citizens are allowed to go to the commissioner’s office and press charges against another citizen. If the charging citizen can provide probable cause basis for the crime, attested to under oath, then the accused citizen will be arrested and/or served a criminal summons. The police often require citizens to use this procedure when they did not witness the crime and the circumstantial evidence available to them does not provide a probable cause basis for arrest/charges. For the citizen, “pressing charges” is a physical act and it must be affirmatively completed.
Not all states allow this procedure. IIRC, MD is in the minority in this regard. I find this a bit comforting because I have seen it abused ad nauseum.
And to answer your question, yes, the bouncer could have been arrested if the police feel that he was the first aggressor and/or that the force used exceeded reasonableness under a totality of the circumstances.
On a similar note, can the patron (whether drunk or not) be charged with anything for resisting the bouncer or fighting back? What if he pulls a Jet Li and beats the crap out of all of the bouncers, but doesn’t really go beyond what’s necessary to reasonably “defend” himself, ie no attacking them while they’re down?
Your hypothetical Jet Li would probably have to have a damn good rationale for why he didn’t just leave instead of fighting the bouncers. Most bouncers won’t follow you down the street if you leave, and it hardly seems “reasonable” to punch someone if you know that you can just walk away and that’ll end it.
Once you’ve been asked to leave, you’re trespassing.
If you fail to leave, the bouncers can take your arm and escort you out. that is reasonable force.
Hauling back and hitting them, even a little bit, is unreasonable excesive force; plus you’ve thrown the first punch.
If you simply pry their fingers off your arm, for example, you are using a measured response.
But then, you are trespassing and still have to leave. And… if it looks like you are trying to twist or dislocate their fingers, that gives the bouncer grounds to retaliate by twisting your arm.
there is no doctrine that says “if they simply touch you, you can knock them down” - not for the bouncer, not for the drunk, not for Bruce or Jet.
And MikeS has the best point - if you try to take anything to court, the question will always be “why did you not leave when you were supposed to?” That will taint your testimony and add credence to the bouncer’s testimony that you started a fight because you were aggressive.
to emphasize - it’s not assault if you refuse to go peacefully, so they simply grab you and drag you out, without trying to inflict pain or injury.
The OP seems pretty straightforward. A person (or his agent) can use reasonable force to eject a trespasser. And a trespasser is a person who remains after being told to leave.
If a trespasser retaliates with force, reasonable force can be used to reject that retaliation.
Business owners have very broad rights to protect their business and their properties. This right includes physically ejecting unwelcome customers. MD2000 has covered it quite well.
Not having the slightest experience in these matters (I’ve never been a bouncer, owned a bar, been bounced out of a bar or even been asked to leave), it occurs to me that either the bar or the bouncer should, for financial safety, have “bounce liability insurance.” Does such a policy exist, and is it used?
Nope. They tell him to come pick it up when he’s sober.
I did a short stint as a bouncer. Our policy was one guy on each side of the drunk ‘supporting’ him/her. And coincidentally immobilizing the arms to prevent any wild swings and therefore assault charges.
Bouncers don’t want to use excessive force because they do get sued from time to time. I doubt they lose very often, they have a built in defense, it’s very rare for customers to be ejected from an establishment for being sober and orderly.
All I’ll say is do not try this at home, I could swear I remember someone getting charged for assault for trying to forcibly eject a guest who would not leave from their house.
EDIT:Not a resident, literally a short term guest who got nasty or something and refused to leave.
FYI- I had a club security friend who while working a private party got attacked by- drunken groom with broken beer bottle, best man then male party goer one after another. other security responded and situation quelled. my frd. who benched over 400lbs and is 5’10" but 280 lbs of pure muscle was sued and spent over 50k in defense. the very drunk groom did this due to “excessive injury”, ie. fractured jaw - broken skull- concussion, broken nose, facial injuries, other minor stuff. My friend won and is now a librarian! and much poorer!
I work in the Security department at a resort with several bars. It is pretty routine to eject trespassers from the property, using only the amount of force necessary to remove them without causing injury. Occasionally drunk people would rather fight, and in such cases only the amount of force necessary to maintain control is used.
I’m not law enforcement, or a lawyer, but I have been the “bouncer” in the original post, and my understanding of the law is that it is not assault or battery to physically eject someone refusing to leave your property after you tell them they’re not welcome.