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  #1  
Old 02-27-2013, 09:09 PM
DummyGladHands DummyGladHands is offline
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Can your boss legally ask when you plan to retire?

Someone announced retirement today, and set the bosses to panic mode. So I am of age to do so; still damn productive if I do say so myself, and my plan is to leave in maybe 2 years. I was the first one to ever have this particular job at this small (125 employees-4 branches, locally owned and operated) company, and I basically built this job. Been doing it for 20+ years. The tasks change with the seasons, so it took me at least a year to figure it out, and although my job title was small at the beginning, it's grown significantly.

But we get paid every 2 weeks. I think I understand I need only give 2 weeks notice, correct? My loyalty lies with the founder, who hired me and treated me well all this time. However, he's stepped back (not down, but back) and has his kids running the show. Spoiled, self-entitled assholes, IMHO. She, by title, the president, comes in about 1 day a week since she finds it "easier to work at home." Thus making her unavailable for day to day issues. She is "too busy" to read emails. He is an incompetent ass, who could not make a decision to move out of the way of a runaway bus-he'd dither until he was run down. (I'd cheer) Or any other decision. Neither understands deadlines or planning ahead. I don't owe them squat.

So, do I tell them? Or sue them? if I tell them, and they chose a successor for me to train, I'll have no input, and loyalty of said person will lie with them. I am not inclined to give them anymore than 2 weeks.

Would I have basis to sue? Esp. if I told them and was let go?

Last edited by DummyGladHands; 02-27-2013 at 09:10 PM..
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  #2  
Old 02-27-2013, 09:24 PM
ski ski is offline
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I'm not sure what your actual question or the situation is here. What do you want to sue about? I think you're missing a paragraph in your OP.
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  #3  
Old 02-27-2013, 09:28 PM
DummyGladHands DummyGladHands is offline
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You're right sorry, Basically I was carried away in my vent. Boss (son) asked me point blank today when I planned to retire. Said they needed at least a year's notice. Parenthetically, he reminded me I'm no spring chicken. Exact words.
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  #4  
Old 02-27-2013, 09:29 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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Jesus H Christ. Sue them for what?

IF your position is terminated, you MAY have cause for an age discrimination lawsuit.

Technically you don't have to give ANY notice. You're retiring. What are they going to do? Give you a bad recommendation?

Last edited by msmith537; 02-27-2013 at 09:32 PM..
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  #5  
Old 02-27-2013, 09:46 PM
Ethilrist Ethilrist is offline
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Tell them you're retiring in five years. When you do decide to retire, give them two weeks' notice. In the meantime, take a look through whatever sort of contract you've got from when you signed up with the company and see what you're actually committed to in writing, and revised that "two weeks" thing depending (it might actually say you do have to give them a year, or they can sue your pants off).
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:46 PM
DummyGladHands DummyGladHands is offline
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I was under the impression age related q's were a no-no. You're probably correct, just really really pissed.
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  #7  
Old 02-27-2013, 09:48 PM
Duckster Duckster is offline
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When Does Asking About Retirement Becomes Age Discrimination?

The lawyer who answered the question calls it illegal.
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  #8  
Old 02-27-2013, 09:51 PM
Waenara Waenara is offline
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Originally Posted by DummyGladHands View Post
You're right sorry, Basically I was carried away in my vent. Boss (son) asked me point blank today when I planned to retire. Said they needed at least a year's notice. Parenthetically, he reminded me I'm no spring chicken. Exact words.
A year's notice?! Reading your OP I was thinking that they would prefer more then two weeks notice, but I was thinking their unrealistic expectation might be a couple months. What possibly reason would they have for requiring a year's notice? To hire and train a new person shouldn't take more than a few months even in the most complicated job. And what would they do if you had to leave suddenly for non-retirement reasons, like if you quit or had a health or family emergency or something?

I would have been willing to give them the benefit of the doubt if they asked for a month or two's notice, but a year? Screw them.
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  #9  
Old 02-27-2013, 10:06 PM
Ethilrist Ethilrist is offline
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Yeah, if they only needed two weeks' notice last month, and today, they need a year? Eff that.
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  #10  
Old 02-27-2013, 11:04 PM
epbrown01 epbrown01 is offline
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Originally Posted by DummyGladHands View Post
Would I have basis to sue? Esp. if I told them and was let go?
It sounds like this is the first time they've asked you, so no. As linked, if they're constantly asking or you're terminated after you tell them your plans, you might have grounds. I had older employees but as you said, I never needed more than the usual notice. HR preferred a month, as the company would plan a party/reserve a restaurant, but that was about it.
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  #11  
Old 02-27-2013, 11:37 PM
Nava Nava is offline
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In Spain the warning periods for each party are given in
* the General Labor Law,
* the Convenio (general agreement between employers and employees) for that sector or company,
* and/or the contract.

The only time someone would get walked out is if they were being walked out by cops, people are often expected to train their replacements and yet warning periods are 2 weeks or a month. People may give more warning if they have a very good relationship with their employer and there are special circumstances, such as wanting to retire in the fall and giving notice before the early-summer hiring rush. In one case I got a contract where the employers had gone to a lot of detail along the lines of "if X party terminates the contract for Y reason, length of warning shall be Z" - and they forgot to write what would happen if I decided to quit (I gave two weeks warning, which was more than they deserved). A year? What the hell are you supposed to do in that year, write all the manuals nobody ever bothered with?

Last edited by Nava; 02-27-2013 at 11:42 PM..
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  #12  
Old 02-28-2013, 07:11 AM
elbows elbows is offline
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First you need to decide if you care what these people think or wish for, how important is it that your last couple of years are pleasant rather than full of conflict.

When someone calls you 'not a spring chicken' or implies a year's notice is required to retire, instead of getting hot about it, or raising to the bait, the very first words out of your mouth should have been, "put that in writing and you got it!" With a big old smile! There is no way in hell they'd put such a thing in writing! But you would instantly recognize you are being played.

It is possible they want you to quit, in anger, so they can give you a diminished package of some sort. You need to decide if you can let it roll off your back, and merrily on, or it's worth an ongoing conflict and possibly hostile work environment.

I suggest you keep your head down, do your work, and ignore their nonsense. Of course they cannot demand a year's notice, what if you were suddenly ill, or unable to work? Or your wife took ill and needed your constant assistance? It's ridiculous on it's face, to me.

And remember, each time they come back around and talk up some upsetting nonsense or other, do not show the slightest disdain and always ask them to put it in writing, as politely, and on any pretext you can.

Good Luck!
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  #13  
Old 02-28-2013, 08:03 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DummyGladHands View Post
I was under the impression age related q's were a no-no. You're probably correct, just really really pissed.
"When are you going to retire" is not an age-related question. People can retire young.

There's nothing wrong with a company asking this. They have to plan for the future and how to replace key employees. We have employees who gave the company notice of their retirement plans a few years in advance. In some cases it doesn't matter much, but in other cases it can take that long to ensure the right plan is in place.
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  #14  
Old 02-28-2013, 09:49 AM
Bullitt Bullitt is offline
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In the OP's situation my reaction is similar to Ethilrist's. Tell them you plan to retire in five years, that you love your job and love who you're working with (well, if you've been making it obvious that you merely tolerate your coworkers, then don't say that...).

They asked for your plan. When you retire in 2 instead of 5, abruptly with a 2-week notice or whatever is required in any written and signed agreement, well, "sorry sir, but my plans changed abruptly, without being reasonably foreseeable." Make it as believable and professional as you can.

Plans change.

Last edited by Bullitt; 02-28-2013 at 09:52 AM..
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  #15  
Old 02-28-2013, 10:09 AM
leahcim leahcim is offline
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Originally Posted by Ethilrist View Post
Yeah, if they only needed two weeks' notice last month, and today, they need a year? Eff that.
I'd be willing to employ you for ten seconds after you leave your current job, then fire you. That way you're not "retiring", just resigning to take another job, which only requires two weeks notice (and that only by tradition). :-)
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  #16  
Old 02-28-2013, 10:22 AM
Icarus Icarus is offline
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Well, for some companies Retirement is a thing, not just "I'm old and I'm done working". Those companies like a lengthy advance notice to go through the whole pension calculation setup etc. And in those companies the employee who is retiring and the company are all on good terms......

That said, it doesn't sound like the OPs situation at all. So, I'm with everyone who says keep your cards close to your vest - and keep your ears open for age related statements from the bosses - write everything down starting now.
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  #17  
Old 02-28-2013, 10:29 AM
kittenblue kittenblue is offline
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Let's get back to what you said in the first line of the OP...someone else at the company announced they are retiring. So....how much notice are THEY giving?

You implied this put your two ineffective bosses, who have been skating along on their dad's groundwork and the skills of long-term employees, into panic mode. They now realize what a bind they are going to be in if another long-term employee (you) also decides to retire, and they realize they don't have a plan on how to replace key staff positions on short notice. So they ask if you have any plans to bail soon, and ask if you could please give them a year's notice so they can get someone hired in...you implied it takes a whole year to learn the seasonal nuances of your job.

I deal with a lot of business people who make no secret of when they plan to retire. One gentleman, who is a Vice-president of a very large company, has mentioned that he planned to retire this year, but they made him an offer he could not refuse and he has agreed to stay on until at least next year. Others openly discuss their plans to retire in specific years/months, and it doesn't seem to affect their job security. People need time to plan your retirement party and collect money for the gift, ya know! But perhaps you are sensing a more hostile intent behind the question than a desire for a smooth transition.
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  #18  
Old 02-28-2013, 10:30 AM
FrankJBN FrankJBN is offline
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Actually the linked attorney does not say that asking about retirement is illegal.

hey thanks for the link.

"So employers, if you would like to know when one of your employees plans to retire, it may be best not to lay it on too thick. Maybe one question, one answer will do the trick."

IOW, asking "When are you going to retire?" comports with this 'net lawyer's advice.
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  #19  
Old 02-28-2013, 12:02 PM
JerrySTL JerrySTL is offline
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I'd tell the boss what they wanted to hear. After all, you can certainly change your mind later. As far as the notice goes, did you sign anything when you joined about a 2-week notice? Does your HR department have any policies on it? Could it effect things like your being vested in the company's part of a 401k or something?

I repeat: tell the boss what they want to hear.
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  #20  
Old 02-28-2013, 12:07 PM
Leaper Leaper is online now
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But would that include promising a year's notice? Will the higher ups start the process of pushing the OP out the door in a year regardless of whether the OP's changed his mind since then?
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  #21  
Old 02-28-2013, 12:20 PM
bup bup is offline
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I agree with the advice to essentially lie. Tell them 5 years, leave after two.
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  #22  
Old 02-28-2013, 12:45 PM
Skammer Skammer is offline
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First of all, there's nothing wrong with them asking you when you plan to retire. They have to run a business which includes preparing for your eventual successor. It's not discrimination unless they are treating you worse than others because of your age. If they pester you over and over for an answer, that could be a different story.

Secondly, there's no reason to lie. You can say "I haven't decided" or "I'll let you know when I do." If you do know for a fact when you want to retire, whether in six months or five years, I don't know why you wouldn't want to let them know.

Thirdly, unless you signed something that says otherwise, and probably even then, you don't have to give them a year's notice. You could give them no notice at all. But that's a pretty dick move and I don't know why you would feel the need to screw them over for no good reason.
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  #23  
Old 02-28-2013, 12:49 PM
redtail23 redtail23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittenblue View Post
You implied this put your two ineffective bosses, who have been skating along on their dad's groundwork and the skills of long-term employees, into panic mode. They now realize what a bind they are going to be in if another long-term employee (you) also decides to retire, and they realize they don't have a plan on how to replace key staff positions on short notice. So they ask if you have any plans to bail soon, and ask if you could please give them a year's notice so they can get someone hired in...you implied it takes a whole year to learn the seasonal nuances of your job.

...But perhaps you are sensing a more hostile intent behind the question than a desire for a smooth transition.
This.

IME of small business owners, particular 2nd generation, reality is often a hard, cold, bitchslap in the face.

They suddenly realized that they're going to have to replace the people who've been keeping things running and they freaked out.

Would they like you to give them a year's notice so that you'd have time to train someone personally in all the details of your job? I'm sure they would.

Are you required to? No.

Are you required to tell them your plans or be honest with them? No.

I'd bet if your original boss had asked this of you (probably more appropriately), you wouldn't have had a problem with it. I've seen lots of long-term employees give notice of retirement way in advance, so that the company had plenty of time to find someone and make a smooth transition.

I'd probably answer something generic like "oh, I don't know, I've got a few good years left in me, I'll let you know when I decide." If they push on it, feel free to tell them whatever you think they want to hear.

As far as notice - hell, you're retiring, you don't even have to worry about getting a reference. As long as you have all of your legal ducks in a row (any employment contracts, pension issues, etc.), you don't have to give notice at all. Just don't show up one day, if that will make you happy. It'd be a complete asshole move, but there's really nothing stopping you.
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  #24  
Old 02-28-2013, 01:46 PM
tdn tdn is offline
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Originally Posted by kittenblue View Post
So they ask if you have any plans to bail soon, and ask if you could please give them a year's notice so they can get someone hired in...you implied it takes a whole year to learn the seasonal nuances of your job.
Thank you for posting this. Their motives are no more sinister than wanting to make sure that your replacement is properly trained, which apparently takes a year. They're not trying to screw you over.
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  #25  
Old 02-28-2013, 08:38 PM
DummyGladHands DummyGladHands is offline
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I like the lying idea. Sorry, if you read my opening post, I despise these 2 new bosses and owe them nothing at all. I live in a right to work state (US) so no contract, fire at will etc. And fully vested in 401k. And he asked again today in a funny haha way.
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  #26  
Old 02-28-2013, 09:18 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Originally Posted by DummyGladHands View Post
I like the lying idea. Sorry, if you read my opening post, I despise these 2 new bosses and owe them nothing at all. I live in a right to work state (US) so no contract, fire at will etc. And fully vested in 401k. And he asked again today in a funny haha way.
Why lie, when you can just say you don't know? That's the truth, even if you really think you do know. Things change, and no one really knows when he's going to retire until he does.
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  #27  
Old 02-28-2013, 11:16 PM
Bullitt Bullitt is offline
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Why lie, when you can just say you don't know? That's the truth, even if you really think you do know. Things change, and no one really knows when he's going to retire until he does.
Technically it wouldn't be a lie because it's a plan, and you're being asked to project your plans out 2 to 5 years. Who knows - if markets tank, you could need to work for 5 more years, not 2.
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  #28  
Old 02-28-2013, 11:45 PM
astro astro is offline
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Given the realities of the world you may decide out of boredom or need you want to get another job at some point after retiring, or you might like to come back to the current job at a higher salary as a consultant or freelance hire. A solid recommendation from your last long term job would be a big deal on your resume. If the new potential employer calls and discovers they feel you are a real SOB who left them in the lurch on short notice it might not be to your benefit.

You seem determined to leave in the least satisfactory way possible to the current bosses in order to satisfy your contempt for them. While this may give you short term satisfaction you need to look at the big picture. While a year's notice a is bit much would it kill you to give them 6 months or so notice?

Being petty and unprofessional in leaving has little long term benefit for you. If you leave on good terms, which does not seem to require much effort on your part, things will probably work out better for you in the long run.
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  #29  
Old 03-01-2013, 02:52 AM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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If they want a year's notice then it should be on the basis of a contract where each party has requirements and there are penalties and bonuses for fulfilling them. For example you don't want the situation where you give them a year's notice; they immediately find a replacement and lay you off a couple months later. And you might be much more interested if they were to pay you a substantial cash bonus for giving this notice.
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  #30  
Old 03-01-2013, 09:40 AM
FrankJBN FrankJBN is offline
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The OP says a couple of things: "I like the idea of lying to them", "I don't owe them [employers] squat".

Anyone else figure that if it is true his employers want to get rid of him that it's no wonder?
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  #31  
Old 03-01-2013, 01:36 PM
DummyGladHands DummyGladHands is offline
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Good heavens, Frank, YOU would respect the 2 I've described?

I think 20+ years proves my worthiness as an employee; my problem is simply that I don't trust nor respect the new bosses. Definitely NOT the "same as the old boss."
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:27 PM
flyboy flyboy is offline
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I'm with astro. I think the most important concept you can impart to them is that you won't leave without plenty of notice, you love your job, you love the company, you love the owner, and have no desire to leave them in a jam by giving insufficient notice. It does you no good to do otherwise.

I know someone dealing with a 401k rollover issue which her ex-boss needs to fix. She wants to file her taxes now with the IRS, which will bring up red flags pointing to the ex-boss if said ex-boss doesn't do the right paperwork. I think I've convinced her to wait and give her ex-boss the benefit of the doubt. Bottom line--you never know if you'll need the bridge, so why burn it?

Last edited by flyboy; 03-01-2013 at 02:30 PM..
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  #33  
Old 03-01-2013, 02:51 PM
FrankJBN FrankJBN is offline
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OP asks: "Good heavens, Frank, YOU would respect the 2 I've described? "

Why should I believe you? You are a disgruntled employer who has plainly stated "I like the idea of lying"

Further, your real issue here is that your employer asked you when you plan to retire. In response you ask "Should I sue?". Doesn't do a lot for your credibility.

So whether I respect the 2 people I have had no contact with really isn't the question is it?
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  #34  
Old 03-01-2013, 02:54 PM
ladyfoxfyre ladyfoxfyre is offline
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Can you learn how to quote already? It's not hard.
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  #35  
Old 03-01-2013, 02:57 PM
tdn tdn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJBN View Post
OP asks: "Good heavens, Frank, YOU would respect the 2 I've described? "
Slight hijack: Frank, you can put someone's quote in a quote box with this formatting: {quote}the quoted text{/quote}, but using square brackets instead.

/hijack
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  #36  
Old 03-01-2013, 03:00 PM
Doug K. Doug K. is offline
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Originally Posted by ladyfoxfyre View Post
Can you learn how to quote already? It's not hard.
In fact, it's easier than what he's doing.

ETA response to tdn: or just click the button that says "Quote".

Last edited by Doug K.; 03-01-2013 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:19 PM
tdn tdn is offline
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ETA response to tdn: or just click the button that says "Quote".
There are two, in fact. Three ways to do it.
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  #38  
Old 03-01-2013, 04:23 PM
FrankJBN FrankJBN is offline
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Let me get this right? No of you folks that commented on my post understood that this: OP asks: "Good heavens, Frank, YOU would respect the 2 I've described? " was a quote from an earlier post?

You were confused?

Look, if I wanted to use the quote function, i would. I tell you, it is really seeming like you folks are a bunch of jerks about this quote thing.

As a proudly displayed greeting card at my place states "Conformity. Serving thousands of boring people everyday"

that's another quote. As I've said to others - if looking at or reading my posts is too difficcult or too annoying for you, there is a very simple solution.

Stop telling me to write the way you want! Who the hell do you think you are? And all these smarmy comments i.e., "can you learn how to quote already?"

You must be a half-wit - what I have done is quote already - just not the way you do. If you can explain why 'Joe says colon quotation mark quote end quotation mark is not a quote, I'll listen - until then shut up already. Can you learn to do that?
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  #39  
Old 03-01-2013, 05:05 PM
ladyfoxfyre ladyfoxfyre is offline
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Lucky for us, you don't quote anything properly. So we don't know who you're calling stupid and telling to shut up.
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  #40  
Old 03-01-2013, 08:35 PM
Idle Thoughts Idle Thoughts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJBN View Post
Let me get this right? No of you folks that commented on my post understood that this: OP asks: "Good heavens, Frank, YOU would respect the 2 I've described? " was a quote from an earlier post?

You were confused?

Look, if I wanted to use the quote function, i would. I tell you, it is really seeming like you folks are a bunch of jerks about this quote thing.

As a proudly displayed greeting card at my place states "Conformity. Serving thousands of boring people everyday"

that's another quote. As I've said to others - if looking at or reading my posts is too difficcult or too annoying for you, there is a very simple solution.

Stop telling me to write the way you want! Who the hell do you think you are? And all these smarmy comments i.e., "can you learn how to quote already?"

You must be a half-wit - what I have done is quote already - just not the way you do. If you can explain why 'Joe says colon quotation mark quote end quotation mark is not a quote, I'll listen - until then shut up already. Can you learn to do that?
Dial back the outrage and stop calling names in this forum. Use the BBQ Pit for that if you want to do it.
Cut out this kind of posting in any other forum or you may be subject to warnings.
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  #41  
Old 03-01-2013, 09:13 PM
China Guy China Guy is offline
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Dummy, with all due respect, I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Now is the time to take the bull by the horns. Work out a succession/exit plan complete with milestones and milestone BONUSES.

If your employers think it would be a clusterfuck if you left suddenly, and think if you're passive aggressive you'll "forget key" things to train and handover.

Work on a succession plan, be part of the interview loop, get someone on board you're comfortable grooming for your position, document the yearlong cycle, and get paid extra for all of this. Have a contract drawn up by a lawyer to make all official with penalty clauses if they back out. The devil is in the details but I think you get my drift.

Win-win
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  #42  
Old 03-01-2013, 09:30 PM
Mosier Mosier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJBN View Post
Let me get this right? No of you folks that commented on my post understood that this: OP asks: "Good heavens, Frank, YOU would respect the 2 I've described? " was a quote from an earlier post?

You were confused?

Look, if I wanted to use the quote function, i would. I tell you, it is really seeming like you folks are a bunch of jerks about this quote thing.

As a proudly displayed greeting card at my place states "Conformity. Serving thousands of boring people everyday"

that's another quote. As I've said to others - if looking at or reading my posts is too difficcult or too annoying for you, there is a very simple solution.

Stop telling me to write the way you want! Who the hell do you think you are? And all these smarmy comments i.e., "can you learn how to quote already?"

You must be a half-wit - what I have done is quote already - just not the way you do. If you can explain why 'Joe says colon quotation mark quote end quotation mark is not a quote, I'll listen - until then shut up already. Can you learn to do that?
It's easier to understand what you're responding to (and therefore, easier in general to parse your posts) when you use the quote feature. That's all.

For what it's worth, I agree with you regarding this thread. The OP sounds like a huge overreaction.
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