How many readers are aware that only four Americans have been killed in combat in Afghanistan for the past 2 months and 10 days. That is a huge decrease in casualties not seen that low since 2007.
We have the outgoing US Commander bringing up the “V” word upon his departure.
Who here might agree with what General Allen is quoted saying below?
You’re shitting me, right? US combat casualties in Vietnam were reaching all time lows in 1972 because we were leaving and had ceased conducting aggressive combat operations and were handing the war over to the ARVN. Do I need to remind you what happened to the Republic of Vietnam over the next three years? Or what happened to the Soviet backed Afghan government after they left?
Yep, victory:
I’d hate to see what defeat looks like.
Yeah, sort of. But to put that in context, that was 2 years after the US left, and while I would not be surprised if the Afghan government suffers a similar fate at some point, the difference is that Congress explicitly forbade a return of troops to Vietnam after we exited in 1973, whereas we’ll be leaving some troops in Afghanistan indefinitely and it’s quite possible we could “re-enegage” if the Taliban and other opposition forces threaten Kabul.
But your point is well taken. That is an image we certainly don’t want to see again.
So the Afghanization of the war is going well? I guess there’s no possibility of future problems then.
Smoke and mirrors. What Obama wants is an exit for the USA that doesn’t turn into a rout. What would be more interesting: find out what real estate Karzai and his cronies have been buying…I’m guessing villas in the South of France.
I think it was very impolitic, at best, and reckless, at worst, for that general to be throwing around the term “victory”.
The United States is also winning in Belgium. After all, there were no U.S. combat deaths there at all this year.
Why?
“Victory”, in war, is when you conquer your enemy and they surrender. Not seeing that happening here.
It’s not as bad as “Mission Accomplished”, but it’s along the same lines. It makes people cynical when evaluating statements from the government about the war. Or perhaps I should say “even more cynical” since there is plenty of cynicism out there already.
Ok. I see your point.
He was talking to Afghans (not American cynics) about their role in securing future Afpghanistan in a morale building speech (at least at that moment). It just doesn’t seem reckless to me to describe what he thinks victory looks like to them.
First let me ask, because of your tone, If you are willing to participate in a reasonable discussion on the topic of the War in Afghanistan on its own merits and charactoristics many of which that are not at all similar to the US Experience in Vietnam and the Soviet Experience in the 1980s.
If you are willing to discuss the **War in Afghanistan **based upon the nature and specific challenges of geography, and the reasons we went there after the attacks on 9/11, and the multitude of differences between the war fighting technology available in 1970 and 2000; and the huge differences in the geopololitical make up of outside support nations for the opposing sides; and the sociological make-up of Vietnam versus the nature of the fight in Afghanistan and the effect of COIN on combatting an insurgency; and many other conditions I would be willing to present, then could you let me know if you are interested in that, or is this a “MY WAY or the HI-WAY” kind of debate wherein it is not centered on a serious examination of the facts, it is just a constant refrain of “you are shitting me right?”
For anyone else, interested in the “STRAIGHTDOPE Philosophy” I will offer this:
In AfPAKwe are not fighting on one side of a divided nation as we did in NAM.
In NAM we faced not only a non-uniformed guerilla insurgenc, but we opposed a Regualy Army (ARVN ) that maintained its supplies and and direction and authority from the North Vietnamese Government.
At the end of Vietnam, It was Richard Nixon, who negotiated “PEACE WITH HONOR” with the CHINESE and North Vietnamese Governent..
Drones/balloons for surveilance were not as technologically advanced in 1970 as they are today. For instance the US/ISAF has tethered balloons with cameras that view what is going on long stretches of major highways and these high range cameras can be daisy-changed for miles so our side can see any type of insurgent activity with regard to planting IED or massing for an attack on any critical institution.
Afpak is not being waged a jungle.
I’ll have more, but I hope you get the picture.
If you just wish to scream that you are right and anybody else is wrong because everybody knows that Adghanistan is Vietnam Redux, then let me know up front, so I wont accused of "one trick ponyism’ because I am quite informed and deeply interested in the subject.
Much has happened since Aaron Astor wrote about the “FALLACY of WAITING US OUT” in December of 2009 when Obama announced the second surge of 30,000 troops at West Point.
Mainly what has happened since then is that the Afghan Army and Police have placed close to 400,000 Afghans in uniform who are taking the lead in just about every combat and raid operation against Taliban leaders and fighters across most of Afghanistan’s provinces.
In 2008 Bush left Afghanistan under the control of the Taliban in about 80% of Afghanstan territory.
The Taliban have been routed (not totally eliminated) from most of the territory they controlled at the time.
Every single day for the past two to three years, the ANA, and ANP with ISAF Backup from the air and for intelligence, have been on average killing or capturing at least two Taliban commanders all across Afghanistan.
You are speaking in generalities that mostly apply to conventional warfare. AfPAK is a counter-insurgency and General Allen was quite specific as to the fact that he was talking about the war that he just spent over a year running.
Here it is again.
[QUOTE**]
“Afghan forces (are) defending Afghan people and enabling the government of this country to serve its citizens,” **he said. “This is victory. This is what winning looks like.”
[/QUOTE]
So is it your belief that Afghan forces are not defending the Afghan People much more so than when they didn’t exist in the numbers and the training that they exist today, and when the Taliban had unchallenged control of vast swaths of Afghanistan about five years ago?
Examples of near daily occurances in Afghanistan for the past couple of years:
It would be great if John Mace had cited the entire report:
Examples of near daily occurances in Afghanistan for the past couple of years:
[/QUOTE]
Victory is winning the war, not just winning some battles. Call me when the other side surrenders. We’re leaving because we have to, not because we’ve won.
NotfooledbyW, please pay attention to our copyright policy. If you quote from an article, use a reasonably small portion of it and link to the rest.
Mission Accomplished!
Again.
I did “cite” (that is, link to) the entire report. I just didn’t break any board rules by copying too much of the report in my post.