Ask the Neo-Pagan Guy

Great Debates
1

Since the “Ask a…” threads have come back with a vengence, I want to jump in with my own…

Ask A Neo-Pagan Guy

Some ground rules:

  1. This thread is for answering questions about Neo-Paganism and all the faiths that come under that heading (Wicca, Asatru, Celtic Reconstructionism, etc). I don’t want this to turn into a thread where I defend my faith. I hold my beliefs as sincerely and deeply as you hold you. Therefore, questions like, “How can you believe something as stupid as Wicca” will be ignored. On the otherhand, questions like, “Where did Wicca come from?” will be gladly answered.

  2. I really don’t want religion bashing in general. I try to be respectful of other people’s beliefs, no matter how unusual they appear to be. I expect others to hold to this, too.

  3. Hi Opal!!

  4. I certainly invite my Pagan brothers and Sisters to join if, if they’d like to help with the questions. For my qualifications, I’m a 1st degree Initiate of Oak, Ash and Thorn Coven (based out of Madison, TN). My degree back in school is a BA in Anthropology with a minor in Comparative Religion. I’ve written a few papers about the history of Neo-Paganism and have a pretty good understanding of its history. I’m also on an email list of Neo-Pagan scholars. If I can’t answer your question, I can find someone who can. :slight_smile:

Let the questions begin!! So Mote It Be!

2

Okay…probably not exactly the kind of question you were looking for, but I need to know before I embarrass myself at Circle on Sunday. :wink:

We’re performing a Beltane ritual for our UU church, and we’re “singing in” the elements with a call-and-return song. Since I’ve the honor of calling South, do I “return” the other four elements (Air, Water, Earth and Spirit), or do I hold my peace except when calling in South?

This is my first involvement in setting the circle, so I’m a little nervous.

3

**dogsbody wrote:

We’re performing a Beltane ritual for our UU church, and we’re “singing in” the elements with a call-and-return song. Since I’ve the honor of calling South, do I “return” the other four elements (Air, Water, Earth and Spirit), or do I hold my peace except when calling in South?**

The best person to ask is the one guiding/leading the ritual. Ask them about your invocation. But from my own experience, you’ll just be invoking that direction only. You remain silent while the others invoke their direction. Again, ask your HP and/or HPS or whoever’s guiding the ritual about proper form. G’luck. I’m sure you’ll do well!

4

I’d like to clear some of my own misconceptions…

  1. Is spellcraft involved in your Coven? Is it expected to have an effect?

  2. Do you meet in official places, like a building created specifically for the purpose of meeting?

  3. What sort of initiation rituals have you experienced? (I’m thinking of those analagous to Christian Baptism and Confirmation – Entry Rituals, if you will.)

5

Hiya guy. :slight_smile:

I was gonaa make a new thread about Magic but seeing as how both of my My New Threads got like goose egg anwsers I might as well ask you first.

  1. Is Magic real? Not the David Copperfield illusion stuff but Real Magic. And what is it called, since the term “Magic” haws been used in regard to illusion stuff.

  2. Do you know of Fotan,and what are your thoughts of it?

3.Is Magic,simply altering the physcial state of things as a whole (I.E affecting the whole cirmcustances of space/time/reality) or affecting the physcial state of self (1 to 1)

In simpler terms. When magic is preformed is it ONLY affecting the user and the target (if there is a “target”) or is it chaning the entire atmosphere of people and things around you.

  1. What are the limits of magic. Can we Levitate,fly around,ect, or can we just simply affect another persons state of being?

  2. If magic is used upon one who does not beleive in it’s existence,will it work?

That’s all I have for noiw. Being a cHristian I ahve my own opionions on the subject (and no I do not hate" or debunk your beleifs :slight_smile: ) but these will suffice for now.

6

Hi there! Your friendly neighborhood Techno Pagan checking in.

I have written numerous papers on the nature of Magic and Technology. I am a solitary Wiccan with a Technological (as opposed to Earth) bent.

Yes, magic is very real. Some call it Magick (or some other spelling of it), ritual or rites. I just call it Magic.

I have never heard of Fotan, so I am not inclined to make a comment on it.

I could go for hours (and pages on top of pages) explaining Magic to everyone, but in the simplest terms Magic is defined as altering reality. To define it better, Magic is an extension of faith.

We have faith that when we turn on our TV it will work, that our car will start or our computer will connect to the internet. Are these things Magic? No, but they once were. I belive (and those are the two most important words when talking about religious issues) that human ingenuity is Magic. The ability to create something out of nothing. We, as humans, all do it to one degree or another. Artists, inventors, pagans.

To answer the question, Magic can affect anything that you want it too.

If you mean this in the literal sense, no. I cannot will myself to fly or levitate or grow ten feet tall and bullet proof, but I can go on a plane, a hovercraft or be the subject of some bizzare genetic engineering.

Here is a good example: If you are ill, I can give you medicine and draw upon the energies of the world around you and the energies that I hold inside of myself to make you better. Does the medicine help? Of course. Does my drawing of the energies help? I belive so.

Using the example above, if you did not belive that me drawing out the energies would help, then no it would not work, but the same goes for the medicine. A reverse placebo effect so to speak. Magic is in the mind, and the heart.

Understand that I am a solitary Wiccan and follow my own set of rules and such that I have created from a mixture of Wicca and Christianity, but the whole Christian Witch is a WHOLE other thread.

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**AlbertRose wrote:

I’d like to clear some of my own misconceptions…

  1. Is spellcraft involved in your Coven? Is it expected to have an effect?**

Do you mean, do we cast spells and do magic? Yes, we do. However, most rites and rituals in Wiccan ceremonies are more for attuning with the seasons and marking their passage.

2) Do you meet in official places, like a building created specifically for the purpose of meeting?

It all depends on the group. Many groups meet in buildings they have rented. I’ve not heard of a specific Pagan building being built in the US or England. In fact, most Pagans like to work out doors. Wicca, in particular, likes to feel a close-ness with nature and therefore, working out-of-doors is ideal. My own Coven in the Nashville area often rents on of the public park spaces and does a camping weekend. We all contribute to the main feast and conduct the ritual outside. If there’s bad weather there’s usually a back up space where we can re-convene.

3) What sort of initiation rituals have you experienced? (I’m thinking of those analagous to Christian Baptism and
Confirmation – Entry Rituals, if you will.)

I’ve been initiated twice (my first Coven, Southshire) and my 2nd Coven, Oak, Ash & Thorn. I’ve also done my own private rituals, for example, when I left the Christian path, I said a formal good bye to the J/C/I God. I’ve been part of Wiccaning ceremonies, where the subject of the ritual gets his/her magical or Craft name. I’ve also seen a ceremony where one Coven hived off a sister Coven.

As for Entry or Initiation rituals, they vary but usually follow a form of:

  1. Subject makes his/her intent know to the group. “Hi! I really like what you do and want to join.”

  2. Subject is assigned a teacher who guides him thru what each group has decides is necessary to become a competent member of the Coven. This material includes, but isn’t limited to: a) basic history and lore of the group and Paganism in general. b) basic seasonal rites. c) ritual competency d) divination method e) relationship with patron dieties. Often the time period for the first degree initiation is the traditional “year and a day.”

  3. The subject demonstrates his abilities before the Coven leaders.

  4. Subject is welcomed in as an official New Member.

A point I’d like to make here is that there is no one set standard of rules that every Coven follows. You’ll have the very traditional, strict British Gardenerians to the very easy going Radical Faeries. There are also the Dianetics, many of whom don’t have men in their rituals.

Each Coven decides what’s best for themselves. Often, if a member is show dis-satified with the group, they’ll either find another group to join or become Solitaire, practicing solo. Rarely does a parting of the ways involve the expulsion of a member.

8

Just to add a few things to what robgruver wrote about magic. Btw, thanks, Rob!

Sagasumono, one book I’d like to recommend to you is: Real Magic by Isaac Bonewits (1989, Weisner). Bonewits has dedicated a lot of his time and life to the subject of magic and what it is. He can explain it a lot better than I can.

I’ve not heard of Fotan. What is it? What tradition does it come from?

A few other points. From anthropology, I’ve learned that every culture practices or has belief in some form of magic. Even in our scientific western society, there are magical forms. The miracle of Transsubstanitiation is one. The miracle cures of diseases; cancers going into remission after long hours of prayers are another. Another book to read on this is by Stanley Tambiah, Magic, Science, Religion and the Scope of Rationality. Try it. He gives a very articulate view of how western society views magic.

9

I’m a little put off by S’s use of the word “target” WRT spellcasting; it’s got some negative connotations and seems to be implying that spells are inherently used to attack other folks.

Magic on an unwilling “target” tends to invoke (AFAIK - please correct me if I’m wrong) the threefold rule: anything you do to another person/creature comes back to you threefold, positive or negative. So wishing harm on another person, at least in my weirdly solitary-yet-group tradition, is a no-no; for one thing, we don’t generally like to do Magic on another person (the aforementioned healing is an exception to this rule, of course) because that interferes with their free will. Even in the case of a beneficial wish for another person if that person is unknowing isn’t something I’d do; you never know when that sort of thing will backfire - on you or them.

My 2c; I’m sure someone more knowledgable will come along and blow me out of the water. :wink:

10

Well…

The three fold rule is generally considered purely a wiccan thing. It isn’t observed or believed in by all pagans.

My opinion:

The three fold rule exists to absolve wiccans from doing bad things. You see, if you believe in it, it works. Thus, you remove yourself from being able to do bad things, and give up personal responsibility for what you want to a piece of socially constructed dogma. You see, it isn’t that you don’t want to do or wouldn’t do bad things, it’s that you don’t because of the three fold rule.

Magick is magick. It isn’t good or bad, it just is. What ever effects it has is purely on the practioner and not on the power itself.

YMMV.

11

Don’t be put off Dogsaboy. I apologize if that in some way “offended you” Moshiwake Gonzaimasen. (I am sorry)

A better word now that I think about it would b “Subject” or “Partner” or “Focus Point” would probably be the best (since you can be your on focus point I.E for healing)
I did not mean the tern “target” soley for bad usae. By Target I was refering to the focus point of the Magicians power I.E where they are directing it to.

Okay so a little about Fontan. (BTW I just had a drink of my own concoccion this being the last day I can drink for a while so bare with me Hiccup :smiley: )

Fontan,from what I know,has to do with Celtic Druid Rituals and drawing power from Black Holes in space. That’s the little I know about it. I found the info in a book called “Way of the Warrior” Which is a book about secrect and/or unkown martial arts.Also had soemthing intresting about Fitz Les Loo(sp) A martial art from the Arabs that redierects the opwer of an attack. IE If I hit you somewhere I get hit in the same area,because my power was absorbed and redirected at me through you)

now more on the magick thing. By the way thank you very much to both Fryer and Robgruyer. I appreicate both of your awsers. Blessed be.BTW Robgruyer we must talk MUCH more as the “Chritain Witch” thing is intresting. It’s strange because I know the bible condems socery or whatever of the like,but I feel if it is for good use,then use it.

  1. Given your anwser to queston 4, is that to say Levitation (or fireballs from the hand) is not possibile? I am one of the ones in the school of though that “If the concept exist,then it can be done/has been done before.” So do you (any magick praticitioner) would say it IS possibile but you don’t know how,or it simply can’t be done?

2.What in your particular belief constitiues a “god” in other worlds what gods do you beleive in. Being a neo-pagan I assume has a beleif in the existence of MANY gods (Including the J/C/I god which actullay are three different ones when you look at it,one did have a son, One will kill you for saying he did,and one didnt have one…yet.)

  1. Do you “share” your beleifs with others,or is the practice tend to be “Those who know dont tell,and those who tell don’t know…”

When I am not tipsy off of my “punch” I will get back to you with my beleifs on these things and we hcan have a healthy discussion. Thank you guys :slight_smile:

12

Feel free to email me, or catch me on AIM (check my profile).

I must say that the answer to this question is a pretty good rip off of a role playing game, but it makes sense to me when I try to explain why you can’t throw fireballs.

The reality that we live in now does not allow you to levitate or throw fireballs. This reality is based on humanities view of the world. Humanity says we cannot fly without help, or throw fireballs without some sort of propellant.

My teacher (when I first got into Wicca) asked me one day to move a small pebble from one side of a table to another. Being as we were talking about Magic earlier I tried and tried to move it with my mind. I spent 15 minutes staring at this rock trying to get it to move. As you can guess, it did not move.

I was frustrated. My teacher said “Now watch as I move the pebble.” He picked it up with his hand and moved it to the other side of the table. I was pissed. “What does this have to do with Magic!”

He said, “Everything. Why do the impossible when it is just as easy to move it with your hand.”

To answer your question. Yes, it is possible to move a stone, throw fireballs, or levitate without help. But why would you want to when it is so much more easier other ways.

God to me is a single being, but with multiple facets. If I invoke Chronos (here comes the mod!), the God of Time, then I am only speaking to a single part of a greater being.

If someone asks, I will be happy to explain my belief structure to them, but if I am not asked I don’t ‘witness’.

13

Freyr,

For the benefit of the ignorant:

  1. Can you give a succinct explanation of what Wicca is and what Wiccans believe? Is there an equivalent of the Christain Creeds which sets out the core beliefs succinctly?

  2. Since you raise it in the OP, where did Wicca come from?

  3. What made you convert from Christianity to Wicca?

14

Was it a long, emotional, “I’ll never forget you, God”, “don’t forget to write, Freyr”, waving-out-the-car-window-with-tears-streaming-down-your-face-as-you-drive-away goodbye, or did you guys just shake hands, “see ya around”, and walk away?

Just curious.

15

Sagasumono, you’ve raised several questions about magic and how it’s practiced within Paganism but I think you’re missing an important point.

Yes, Paganism does use magic, but so does every religious system that I know of. If you want an example of magic within a Christian context, go to your local Catholic or Orthodox Church during a High Holiday (say Easter or Christmas Eve) and you’ll see some intricate magical workings.

The point I’m making here is that magic is NOT the point of Paganism. Magic is a tool for communicating with the Gods or for personal and spiritual development. It is a tool like a hammar is a tool for building a house. It is a means to achieve a goal, not the goal itself.

In Paganism, magic is highly visible, we use it to communicate with the Gods and to work our will, both on ourselves and the world around us. Within the Judeo/Christian context, magic is seen as divine intervention rather than the working of the individuals.

Magic, as practiced by Pagans is not the glitter and glow one sees on a movie screen or something to be thrown around like characters in a role-playing game. It’s part of the subtle, poetic flow of the Universe and takes practice to learn to use and manipulate. Magic is not a toy or a game.

16

Okay, see, that’s what I was trying to say. I knew someone else would say it better than I could.

Oh, and Hastur? Mea culpa - I actually do know the threefold is part of Wicca and meant to mention that; my own practice tends to be a little more eclectic than that, and I have subtle questions about a lot of magic/wiccan ways (subtle enough that I can’t define them here for anyone’s benefit, sorry).

17

I think it only condemns necromancy.

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From my perspective:

  1. I’ll leave that to Freyr. I’m pagan, not wiccan.

  2. While it is said by some to be a revival of ancient worship, it is considered to come from a combination of the work of archeologist/anthropologist Margaret Murray and the work of Gerald Gardner. Purely a 20th century recreation of what they think pre Christian nature religions were.

  3. It wasn’t a conversion to me, as I was never Christian. It was discovering my true path.

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by smaft *
**

For some of us it was just passing on one set of traditions for ones that better fit, and for others of us it was more:

“Don’t let the door hit you in the ass. Seeya, wouldn’t wanna BE ya.”

Some of us forget that the flaws in Christianity aren’t necessarily the deity, but the worshippers.

20

Come with me to The BBQ Pit.

You guys should feel honored. Y’all are the first group to ever inspire me to create a Pit thread. Even the fundamentalist Christian creationists never did that!

There is no good evidence for the existence of magic. Belief is not evidence. If a billion people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. Exchanging Christianity for paganism or wicca just means you exchanged one form of ignorance for another.