The Straight Dope

Go Back   Straight Dope Message Board > Main > Great Debates

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 04-13-2013, 10:08 PM
sweat209 sweat209 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
So if I understand they are phasing out LPN than.

In the future it just be CNA ,RN and APN than.

So the start of the thread was just how one get RN in past it was Diplomate Certificates now they want it to be Bachelor's Degree .

Both the Diplomate Certificates or Bachelor's Degree is the same 4 years of school it just one is Diplomate Certificates and other is Bachelor's Degree .


But they will be doing same work it just they will have Bachelor's Degree .

Last edited by sweat209; 04-13-2013 at 10:09 PM..
Reply With Quote
Advertisements  
  #52  
Old 04-13-2013, 10:23 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sweet Home Chicago
Posts: 30,394
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweat209 View Post
So if I understand they are phasing out LPN than.

In the future it just be CNA ,RN and APN than.

So the start of the thread was just how one get RN in past it was Diplomate Certificates now they want it to be Bachelor's Degree .

Both the Diplomate Certificates or Bachelor's Degree is the same 4 years of school it just one is Diplomate Certificates and other is Bachelor's Degree .


But they will be doing same work it just they will have Bachelor's Degree .
No, I don't think you understand.

They are unofficially phasing out LPNs by just not hiring them, but not for any reasons that have anything to do with the Bachelor's Degree thing. LPNs being phased out is a whole separate topic.

All states require you to pass a test to get your RN license. Some states require a Bachelor's before you can take that test. Other will let you take the test with a Bachelor's OR an Associate Degree*. There has been talk in my state for 20 years that they're going to change in Illinois so you have to have a Bachelor's Degree to take the test to get your RN license, but it hasn't happened yet (that I know of).

Looks like there's a similar push in Canada, to change the requirements so that new nurses (not those who already hold a license) need a Bachelor's Degree. I'm not surprised in the least.

Do Bachelor's Degree RN's and Associate Degree RN's do the same work? Is that your question? The answer is yes, we hold identical licenses with identical scope of practice, rights and responsibilities and we answer to the same nursing board. So yes, we do the same work. But that work is quite different from what you thought it was.



*I'm sorry I brought up Diploma nurses, but I was trying to be thorough. Used to be once upon a time you could learn to be a nurse through a program of study at a hospital. Rather than a school which would give you a degree, the hospital would give you a Diploma at the end of your training. That Diploma is one way you can meet the requirements to sit the test for an RN license. But there aren't many hospital based Diploma Nursing programs left in the US. Not sure about Canada.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 04-13-2013, 11:00 PM
sweat209 sweat209 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyNot View Post
No, I don't think you understand.

They are unofficially phasing out LPNs by just not hiring them, but not for any reasons that have anything to do with the Bachelor's Degree thing. LPNs being phased out is a whole separate topic.

All states require you to pass a test to get your RN license. Some states require a Bachelor's before you can take that test. Other will let you take the test with a Bachelor's OR an Associate Degree*. There has been talk in my state for 20 years that they're going to change in Illinois so you have to have a Bachelor's Degree to take the test to get your RN license, but it hasn't happened yet (that I know of).

Looks like there's a similar push in Canada, to change the requirements so that new nurses (not those who already hold a license) need a Bachelor's Degree. I'm not surprised in the least.

Do Bachelor's Degree RN's and Associate Degree RN's do the same work? Is that your question? The answer is yes, we hold identical licenses with identical scope of practice, rights and responsibilities and we answer to the same nursing board. So yes, we do the same work. But that work is quite different from what you thought it was.



*I'm sorry I brought up Diploma nurses, but I was trying to be thorough. Used to be once upon a time you could learn to be a nurse through a program of study at a hospital. Rather than a school which would give you a degree, the hospital would give you a Diploma at the end of your training. That Diploma is one way you can meet the requirements to sit the test for an RN license. But there aren't many hospital based Diploma Nursing programs left in the US. Not sure about Canada.

What I'm confused about is I think in Canada you have college and university where one goes to college you can take diploma or certification where university in Canada are more for people who want to get Bachelor's Degree , Master or PHD.

Normy if one wants to get Bachelor's Degree or Degree like computer science Degree , Bachelor computer security , philosophy you have to take other subjects , like if one takes philosophy you may have to take women studies and political studies.

So poster above said would a Bachelor Degree be more science learning or more medical learning? Would it help? Would one be talking lot of math , taking evolution , chemistry and physics so on?

Why ? because diploma or certification are more focus driven where Bachelor are more broad knowledge. It like one goes to university taking computers you take bit programming , bit hardware and bit software .Where diploma or certification in computers are more focus driven you take hardware you know that and noting else.

Unless this some kind of medical school Bachelor's Degree that is different.

Also what is confusing is some college in the US or UK are college university combo schools where in Canada they don't have that.

You cannot get Bachelor's Degree , Master or PHD in college in Canada but in US and UK you can.

I know this is very confusing.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 04-13-2013, 11:08 PM
IvoryTowerDenizen IvoryTowerDenizen is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: North Shore of LI
Posts: 13,610
Generally speaking college and university are used interchangeably is the US. Colleges tend to only have undergrad degrees (Bachelors) and university's will have undergrad and grad (masters or doctoral level). Undergrad degrees almost always include liberal arts ourselves work (history, philosophy etc) in addition to major coursework.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 04-14-2013, 04:44 AM
aruvqan aruvqan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Eastern Connecticut
Posts: 15,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweat209 View Post
A public school kid should not learn high school work and high school is no place to learn college or university work.If kid ask question that at college or university level the teacher should not answer it.It like me asking how to fix car engine with out knowing the basic what car engine does and basic parts of car or asking how NASA space rocket knows how to go from one point in space to other point in space with out understanding the navigation system and how that works.

Also schools should spend more time on preparing you for the adult world and less time learning math and science you will never use.
Pfsh, you do not need to know much about infernal combustion engines to be able to repair them, the old Chiltons manuals had trouble shooting checklists so that almost anybody could figure out what was wrong with the engine and repair it. Of course that was pre everything is electronic and computerized cars. Heck, we could bypass almost the entire electrical system on my scout and drive [we had a brown box with a pair of clamps on wires coming out one side, a simple toggle on the box, and another lead that hooked up to the distributor cap. Attach everything, turn the ignition on and flip the switch.] More than once I was able to work on various cars without really knowing jack shit about engines by simply following the troubleshooting guides step by step. Hell, I even rebuilt an engine using a chiltons once.

And any education is never wasted.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 04-14-2013, 06:04 AM
WhyNot WhyNot is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sweet Home Chicago
Posts: 30,394
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweat209 View Post
I know this is very confusing.
Your best bet is probably to visit the websites of schools in your area and look at the program listings. They often give you the names and/or course descriptions online.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 04-14-2013, 06:45 AM
KarlGrenze KarlGrenze is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Like the one I showed at UF. The nursing degree is very specific in its scope, certainly more than for other bachelor degrees. The level of sciences they take is basic, as an introduction to the human anatomy and physiology classes and other nursing classes that they will take. They are not required to take many of the courses other science majors DO have to take.

Here is another curriculum, this time from Louisiana.

If you're concerned about the "humanities" electives, note that they can be in languages or economics or finances.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 04-14-2013, 06:59 AM
Ca3799 Ca3799 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
My state is also considering eliminating the 2 year ADN and requiring a 4 year BSN nursing degree. Currently we have 1 year LVNs, 2 year RNs, 4 year RNs, and then a variety of higher and related degrees all the way up to Doctorates in Nursing.

There have been rumors of this increased educational requirement for years, and it's not actually the state or government that is pressuring making the move, but the employers.

For example, my employer (a hospital) wants to achieve a special certification that requires 80% of the nursing staff to have a BSN. They have set their target date as 2016.

Many of my co-workers with an ADN are looking at returning to school for transition RN to BSN programs right now. It looks like the transition programs run about 12-13 months although you see them advertised for less- especially from the for profit colleges. (The short coursework advertised seems just to be a marketing gimmick as far as I can tell.)

The for-profit colleges are charging about $27,000 (or approx $580.00 per semester hour) for the transition programs.

The traditional colleges are charging about $9,000 (approx $275.00 per semester hour).

Some of my coworkers are choosing the for-profits, despite the sticker shock, because they are convenient. Classes start every 6-8 weeks, can be done exclusively from home, and assignments are given in 1 week chunks for the student to work on as time allows during the week. People working full-time find this very convenient.

Last edited by Ca3799; 04-14-2013 at 07:02 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 04-14-2013, 07:57 AM
slowlearner slowlearner is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
I've had the great luck not to need much medical care in my life, but have spent lots of time in hospitals with family and friends. ER nurses, icu nurses, neonatal, surgical nurses are almost all brilliant people. On the other hand the nurses providing most of the day to day care for patients are too often ignorant, incompetent, overworked, and underpaid. Injury and death from staff errors is way too high. If you have a loved one going into the hospital be prepared to have someone who cares about them present as close to 24/7 as possible. Hard to believe the hospital cartel will accept the expense of all those degreed caregivers.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 04-14-2013, 01:22 PM
alphaboi867 alphaboi867 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: the Keystone State
Posts: 11,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyNot View Post
...*I'm sorry I brought up Diploma nurses, but I was trying to be thorough. Used to be once upon a time you could learn to be a nurse through a program of study at a hospital. Rather than a school which would give you a degree, the hospital would give you a Diploma at the end of your training. That Diploma is one way you can meet the requirements to sit the test for an RN license. But there aren't many hospital based Diploma Nursing programs left in the US. Not sure about Canada.
According to Mom instead of paying tuition student nurses actually earned a (small) salary from the hospital, that may have even included room & board.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 04-14-2013, 01:30 PM
esmeralda2 esmeralda2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by cerberus View Post
There's degree versus license:

CNA: certified nurse assistant
No degree required

LPN: licensed practical nurse
Usually an associates degree required, as ASN, Associate degree in Science of Nursing

RN: registered nurse
Depending on state, associates or bachelors

APRN: Advanced Practice Registered Nurse
CNP: Certified Nurse Practitioner
Usually Masters degree or higher
In the US there are registered nurses with 4 year degrees and LPNs with 2 year degrees. LPNs are more limited in what procedures they can do. They are also more limited as far a promotion and specialization. I have a friend who is an RN. She worked in direct hospital nursing for some years then moved into research. She now works in research in a teaching hospital and supervises her own staff. An LPN would not be able to do that kind of thing.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 04-14-2013, 01:32 PM
esmeralda2 esmeralda2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowlearner View Post
I've had the great luck not to need much medical care in my life, but have spent lots of time in hospitals with family and friends. ER nurses, icu nurses, neonatal, surgical nurses are almost all brilliant people. On the other hand the nurses providing most of the day to day care for patients are too often ignorant, incompetent, overworked, and underpaid. Injury and death from staff errors is way too high. If you have a loved one going into the hospital be prepared to have someone who cares about them present as close to 24/7 as possible. Hard to believe the hospital cartel will accept the expense of all those degreed caregivers.
It is more likely the LPNs doing most of the day to day care and RNs who are the ER, ICU, neonatal and surgical nurses. Why would someone get a four year degree to change bed pans for the rest of their lives?
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 04-14-2013, 01:35 PM
esmeralda2 esmeralda2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
Generally speaking college and university are used interchangeably is the US. Colleges tend to only have undergrad degrees (Bachelors) and university's will have undergrad and grad (masters or doctoral level). Undergrad degrees almost always include liberal arts ourselves work (history, philosophy etc) in addition to major coursework.
The definition of a college is an institution that has only 4 year programs.
An university has graduate programs in addition to 4 year programs.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 04-14-2013, 01:38 PM
alphaboi867 alphaboi867 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: the Keystone State
Posts: 11,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by esmeralda2 View Post
The definition of a college is an institution that has only 4 year programs.
An university has graduate programs in addition to 4 year programs.
In the US those terms are more or less interchangeble and there are universities that still call themselves colleges (Dartmouth College, College of William & Mary, etc).
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 04-14-2013, 02:07 PM
esmeralda2 esmeralda2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaboi867 View Post
In the US those terms are more or less interchangeble and there are universities that still call themselves colleges (Dartmouth College, College of William & Mary, etc).
I live in the US. The terms are not 'interchangeable.' A university is an institution with graduate programs. A college is not. Dartmouth and other old and well establiished institutions probably just didn't want to change their names because they are so old and well known, but once they included graduate programs, they became universities in fact, even if they don't use the term university in their name. I gave the definition. There is no 'interchangeable' about it. For example, a school with only 4 year programs cannot call itself a university.

Last edited by esmeralda2; 04-14-2013 at 02:11 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 04-14-2013, 02:24 PM
etv78 etv78 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
This hasn't been mentioned yet so I will: If you or a loved one is ever in a nursing home (in the US anyway) the people tending to their day-to-day needs are CNAs.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 04-14-2013, 03:02 PM
esmeralda2 esmeralda2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by etv78 View Post
This hasn't been mentioned yet so I will: If you or a loved one is ever in a nursing home (in the US anyway) the people tending to their day-to-day needs are CNAs.
There are also LPNs. I know this because I once worked for 2 years for an agency that placed temporary RNs, LPNs, and CNAs in hospitals, nursing homes and private residences. All three went to hospitals; LPNs and CNAs went to nursing homes. I also had a roommate for a while who was an LPN and worked full time in a nursing home.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 04-14-2013, 03:10 PM
etv78 etv78 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
LPNs run the floor, but CNAs hand out food, makes beds, dress residents, escort them to activities, etc.. (at least IME, YMWV)
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 04-14-2013, 03:50 PM
esmeralda2 esmeralda2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by etv78 View Post
LPNs run the floor, but CNAs hand out food, makes beds, dress residents, escort them to activities, etc.. (at least IME, YMWV)
I have no idea what YMWV means. And I'm guessing what IME means.

CNA's do all the shit work. LPNs do have patient contact. Most of the staff in a nursing home is CNAs, true. But there are procedures that CNAs cannot do, which the LPN needs to do.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 04-14-2013, 10:57 PM
etv78 etv78 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
IME=In My Experience

YMWV=Your Mileage Will Vary

Your points:

1.That's what I meant by "run the floor"

2.That's pretty much "Shit work" IMHO.

Last edited by etv78; 04-14-2013 at 10:58 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 04-14-2013, 10:57 PM
Courk Courk is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by esmeralda2 View Post
In the US there are registered nurses with 4 year degrees and LPNs with 2 year degrees.
As has been pointed out previously, there are also RNs with 2-year associate degrees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esmeralda2 View Post
It is more likely the LPNs doing most of the day to day care and RNs who are the ER, ICU, neonatal and surgical nurses. Why would someone get a four year degree to change bed pans for the rest of their lives?
Various areas will likely vary widely on this, which in itself indicates a broad statement like that is probably inaccurate. In my experience, it's mostly RNs working throughout the hospital, and it's increasing as LPNs are phased out. Changing bed pans is merely one aspect of the job, just as any job has unpleasantries. There are other aspects that make it worthwhile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esmeralda2 View Post
I live in the US. The terms are not 'interchangeable.' A university is an institution with graduate programs. A college is not. Dartmouth and other old and well establiished institutions probably just didn't want to change their names because they are so old and well known, but once they included graduate programs, they became universities in fact, even if they don't use the term university in their name. I gave the definition. There is no 'interchangeable' about it. For example, a school with only 4 year programs cannot call itself a university.
While, yes, there are specific definitions for each, in conversation the tendency is to use "university" and "college" interchangeably. This can get confusing when one person in a conversation thinks that the two terms represent different entities, but the other person is following technically incorrect, but often-used, conversational styling and using the terms interchangeably. The quick way to explain any resulting misunderstandings to the first person is to explain that the two terms are used interchangeably. It's true that "college" and "university" are not interchangeable, but it is also true that they are nevertheless used interchangeably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esmeralda2 View Post
There are also LPNs. I know this because I once worked for 2 years for an agency that placed temporary RNs, LPNs, and CNAs in hospitals, nursing homes and private residences. All three went to hospitals; LPNs and CNAs went to nursing homes. I also had a roommate for a while who was an LPN and worked full time in a nursing home.
There are some RNs in nursing homes, but they're less likely to be in positions that need to be filled by temporary employees.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 04-15-2013, 03:08 AM
esmeralda2 esmeralda2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Courk View Post
While, yes, there are specific definitions for each, in conversation the tendency is to use "university" and "college" interchangeably. This can get confusing when one person in a conversation thinks that the two terms represent different entities, but the other person is following technically incorrect, but often-used, conversational styling and using the terms interchangeably. The quick way to explain any resulting misunderstandings to the first person is to explain that the two terms are used interchangeably. It's true that "college" and "university" are not interchangeable, but it is also true that they are nevertheless used interchangeably.
So because a term is used incorrectly by some people, I should accept that the definitions are meaningless and go with the flow? Language then becomes meaningless.

A university is an institution that provides undergraduate and graduate programs. A college is an instution that provides only undergraduate programs. There are no two ways about that. If some people use the term incorrectly, that is not a reason for anyone else to do so and thus promote ignorance, which, btw, would be quite ironic.

Last edited by esmeralda2; 04-15-2013 at 03:09 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 04-15-2013, 03:16 AM
Monty Monty is offline
Straight Dope Science Advisory Board
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Beijing, China
Posts: 17,786
Quote:
Originally Posted by esmeralda2 View Post
A university is an institution that provides undergraduate and graduate programs. A college is an instution that provides only undergraduate programs. There are no two ways about that. If some people use the term incorrectly, that is not a reason for anyone else to do so and thus promote ignorance, which, btw, would be quite ironic.
Really, now? That's just one institution. Let me know if you need another, please.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 04-15-2013, 03:25 AM
esmeralda2 esmeralda2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
Really, now? That's just one institution. Let me know if you need another, please.
I have already explained this phenomenon. Go back and read the thread. If a university wants to call itself a college, that's their prerogative. Find a four year school with no graduate programs, which is calling itself a university, then get back to me. Such a school does not have the prerogative of calling itself a university.

Last edited by esmeralda2; 04-15-2013 at 03:28 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 04-15-2013, 03:39 AM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by esmeralda2 View Post
So because a term is used incorrectly by some people, I should accept that the definitions are meaningless and go with the flow? Language then becomes meaningless.

A university is an institution that provides undergraduate and graduate programs. A college is an instution that provides only undergraduate programs. There are no two ways about that. If some people use the term incorrectly, that is not a reason for anyone else to do so and thus promote ignorance, which, btw, would be quite ironic.
And yet, this adds nothing to what IvoryTowerDenizen said post 54, it's just nitpicking at semantics. You don't have to "accept" that people use words interchangeably, but simply recognizing that this is done is not promoting ignorance. In fact, it is how exactly language evolves.

And, finally, Boston College would like to differ with you.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 04-15-2013, 03:46 AM
Lord Feldon Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by esmeralda2 View Post
Find a four year school with no graduate programs, which is calling itself a university, then get back to me.
Denison University in Granville, Ohio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esmeralda2 View Post
Such a school does not have the prerogative of calling itself a university.
I'd like to hear more about this prerogative. What body is responsible for formally granting the word "university," and what are the penalties for a "university" that doesn't have any graduate programs?

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 04-15-2013 at 03:48 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 04-15-2013, 03:58 AM
Monty Monty is offline
Straight Dope Science Advisory Board
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Beijing, China
Posts: 17,786
Quote:
Originally Posted by esmeralda2 View Post
I have already explained this phenomenon.
Actually, you didn't. You expressed an opinion.

In response to your request, I just got back to you (even though that particular school is now defunct). Heck, they didn't even offer a 4 year degree!

Last edited by Monty; 04-15-2013 at 04:02 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 04-15-2013, 04:04 AM
Lord Feldon Lord Feldon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Algoma University:

Quote:
At Algoma, there are no graduate programs, which means that undergrads have opportunities to assist with faculty research projects.
John Cabot University:

Quote:
Does John Cabot offer any graduate programs (MBA, etc.)?
The University does not offer any graduate degree programs at this time.
Illinois Wesleyan University:

Quote:
Illinois Wesleyan is an undergraduate university that offers programs leading to the bachelor's degree. We do not offer any graduate programs.
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 04-16-2013, 09:34 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
Straight Dope Science Advisory Board
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: On the dance floor.
Posts: 14,891
Requirements inflation is hitting other professions as well. Engineering is very close to requiring a masters degree to sit for the PE exam and become a Professional Engineer. This has led to a lot of angst in the Engineering community, especially Mechanical Engineers. Doing this will IMO greatly reduce the number of people who can legally call themselves "Engineers" and drive up the salaries of PEs tremendously. Or, it may lead to Engineering graduate schools becoming assembly lines to basically turn dollars into degrees.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 04-21-2013, 09:17 PM
sweat209 sweat209 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
So you are saying in Canada or the UK you can only get Bachelor's Degree , Master or PHD at university where in the US at college you can get Bachelor's Degree , Master or PHD?

Last edited by sweat209; 04-21-2013 at 09:17 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 04-21-2013, 09:31 PM
sweat209 sweat209 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
So if I understand in past nurse gone to school for 4 years and got certification it was very focus driven of science of body and nursing and now they don't want a certification but Bachelor's Degree that less focus driven but more broad knowledge.


Because most universities than the Bachelor's is nothing it only when you get your Master or PHD is where it is more focus. That is why kids that get Bachelor's on any subject not just nursing knows little bit of every thing but does not know the subject enough. Where it is only to you get Master or PHD to you really start know your stuff.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 04-21-2013, 09:33 PM
wolfman wolfman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweat209 View Post
So you are saying in Canada or the UK you can only get Bachelor's Degree , Master or PHD at university where in the US at college you can get Bachelor's Degree , Master or PHD?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmouth_College
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 04-22-2013, 07:28 AM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
I'm not an RN, but I'm in a family of RNs. Around here, two year RNs have been pretty lost for 20 years - its hard for them to compete with 4 year RNs.

RNs make a lot of spur of the moment decisions. They may not prescribe or diagnose, but they'd better have the background to review the assessment and say "we need to get the doctor in here." Especially in hospitals, especially in critical care, surgical recovery and the ER.

There is a push to nurse practitioners for primary care - my kids "pediatrician" and my "doctor" are both master's degree nurses.

My brother in law is a CRNA in rural anesthetisa. He prescribes within his field and has no anesthetist supervision. My sister is a nursing administrator with a Masters, which means she doesn't do patient care, she is third in charge at a hospital.
__________________
One day, in Teletubbie land, it was Tinkie Winkie's turn to wear the skirt.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:39 AM
KarlGrenze KarlGrenze is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweat209 View Post
So if I understand in past nurse gone to school for 4 years and got certification it was very focus driven of science of body and nursing and now they don't want a certification but Bachelor's Degree that less focus driven but more broad knowledge.
I'm a bit confused by this post. There is a difference between the various nurse certifications, licenses, and accreditations, and the degree granted by (university, college, community college, etc.). The 4 year degree for nurses is typically a Bachelor of Science in Nursing, which, unlike other majors, is very focus driven and clinical. The associate's degree in nursing is supposed to be the 2 year counterpart, but some programs have pre-requisites that make it a 3 or 4 year degree before being admitted to the program. This makes it less desirable than getting into the bachelor's program (similar time given to a "lesser" degree).

Many colleges/universities that offer the nursing degrees also offer accelerated programs for people who already have an associate's or bachelor's degree in another area that is not nursing.

A PhD in nursing is possible, but very rare, and so far I've only seen those for nurses who want to teach other nurses. A master's is the nursing equivalent of a specialty, and with that degree they can get certified for becoming a nurse practitioner, which can stand-in for many "primary doctors".
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 04-22-2013, 10:08 AM
drastic_quench drastic_quench is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
In general, in my own personal experience, nurses are poor students with no interest in the classic well-rounded college curriculum. While I admire their lazer-like focus on their goal, actual learning in non-nursing courses takes a backseat to grade chasing and grade grubbing. I can't count how many nursing students tell me, "I need an A. My GPA must be ____."

"That's nice, but grades follow success in my course, and success comes from demonstrating that you've learned the core concepts. The good news is that you'll find it's all very fair and achievable. Don't tell me what you need; earn it."

So, I'm all for this development. Every professional should strive to be more worldly and not simply possess only the exact skill set for a career.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 04-22-2013, 01:04 PM
sweat209 sweat209 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Okay I tried to explain it but may be I did a bad job. I'm sure others here can explain the colleges and universities thing better.

A certification is very focus driven where a bachelorís degree is not . If you go to school getting certification in computer programming it be very focus driven where bachelorís degree is not , you take bit of programming ,hardware ,software and networking so on.

That say you want a bachelorís degree in sociology you will have take other subjects like women studies ,philosophy and civics so on. Likewise if you want a bachelorís degree in women studies you take liberal arts studies , philosophy so on. It not to you get to your master or PHD to it starts to be very focus drive.

Any bachelorís degree is very broad you will not know enough about the subject it only to you get to your master or PHD to you really start to understand the work.

A bachelorís degree is too basic and too broad and you learn a lot of extra studies that have nothing to so with your master or PHD.Sure the kids will have exposure , but they will not know enough about it to write book on it or talk about .It is like physicist doing is time getting his bachelorís he will take biology , chemistry and life science but his master or PHD will be very very focus on physics.

If a nurse takes bachelorís degree that be extra studies may be in things like not just human body chemistry but chemistry in world , not just human biology but animal biology , may be even life science a bit of physics.

This what I mean how will this help the patient or be good nurse? On less it like the poster said above Bachelor of Science in Nursing than bachelorís degree where Bachelor of Science in Nursing will be more focus on human body chemistry ,human body biology ,medicine and nursing.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 04-22-2013, 01:17 PM
sweat209 sweat209 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by drastic_quench View Post
In general, in my own personal experience, nurses are poor students with no interest in the classic well-rounded college curriculum. While I admire their lazer-like focus on their goal, actual learning in non-nursing courses takes a backseat to grade chasing and grade grubbing. I can't count how many nursing students tell me, "I need an A. My GPA must be ____."

"That's nice, but grades follow success in my course, and success comes from demonstrating that you've learned the core concepts. The good news is that you'll find it's all very fair and achievable. Don't tell me what you need; earn it."

So, I'm all for this development. Every professional should strive to be more worldly and not simply possess only the exact skill set for a career.
I think nurses have evolved in work they do now.

Here in pre med nurse test of the math alone .

No high school kid will understand 5% of this math . In past it was probably the doctor that did this math work to tell nurse what to do.

http://www.alysion.org/dimensional/taketest.htm
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 04-22-2013, 03:07 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sweet Home Chicago
Posts: 30,394
sweat209, I'm not sure where you're from, what your native language is or what the training and job duties of nurses where you live is, but you've been wrong, and continue to be wrong, about just about everything you post. I think. It's very hard to understand your writing, but I think that there's a language barrier here. So I'm working hard at trying to figure out what you're trying to say, and you're still wrong.

A Bachelor's of Science in Nursing is not "broader" than the Associate of Applied Science. It has all of the same requirements, plus more - and those more are all in nursing and/or human sciences or closely relevant fields. Pharmacology, Community Nursing, Statistics and some more clinical hours working directly with patients are common classes needed for a Bachelor's but optional or not offered for an Associate's. Of course they will vary by school, but that's at least what's common in the many nursing schools around me.

AAS nurses need to take English Writing and Communication something from Humanities and math that's at least College Algebra. So do BS nurses. The "broad" non-nursing curriculum is required of both types of nursing programs.

That math is dead simple, and absolutely something that every nurse needs to know how to do, Associate's nurse or Bachelor's nurse. It is covered in high school algebra, but it will be covered again in College Algebra. Within the nursing program itself, Dimensional Analysis is a popular alternate method taught to figure out those types of problems. I tend to prefer Dimensional Analysis, but once in a while I get stuck, and revert to my old algebra skills.

No, doctors do NOT "figure out the math" for nurses, and they never have. That's part of a nurse's job. The doctor tells the nurse the dose and the pharmacy sends the medicine, and the nurse figures out how to give the appropriate dose based on what she's gotten from the pharmacy. There's actually a bit LESS math required than in the past, now that so many hospitals use computerized systems and send up accurate individual doses. But a nurse is still responsible for checking the pharmacy's work, knowing when a doctor orders a dose that's unreasonable or unsafe, and administering only safe, correct doses of medication. And you do still run into math you have to do yourself from scratch, especially in Pediatric nursing.

Nurses are not doctors' servants. We're not waitresses. We're not handmaidens. We're not your mom. We're skilled, educated professionals who are part of your health care team, with our own education, assessments, diagnoses, care plans, interventions and skills. We work WITH doctors. We do not work FOR doctors.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 04-22-2013, 04:47 PM
sweat209 sweat209 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyNot View Post
sweat209, I'm not sure where you're from, what your native language is or what the training and job duties of nurses where you live is, but you've been wrong, and continue to be wrong, about just about everything you post. I think. It's very hard to understand your writing, but I think that there's a language barrier here. So I'm working hard at trying to figure out what you're trying to say, and you're still wrong.

A Bachelor's of Science in Nursing is not "broader" than the Associate of Applied Science. It has all of the same requirements, plus more - and those more are all in nursing and/or human sciences or closely relevant fields. Pharmacology, Community Nursing, Statistics and some more clinical hours working directly with patients are common classes needed for a Bachelor's but optional or not offered for an Associate's. Of course they will vary by school, but that's at least what's common in the many nursing schools around me.

AAS nurses need to take English Writing and Communication something from Humanities and math that's at least College Algebra. So do BS nurses. The "broad" non-nursing curriculum is required of both types of nursing programs.

That math is dead simple, and absolutely something that every nurse needs to know how to do, Associate's nurse or Bachelor's nurse. It is covered in high school algebra, but it will be covered again in College Algebra. Within the nursing program itself, Dimensional Analysis is a popular alternate method taught to figure out those types of problems. I tend to prefer Dimensional Analysis, but once in a while I get stuck, and revert to my old algebra skills.

No, doctors do NOT "figure out the math" for nurses, and they never have. That's part of a nurse's job. The doctor tells the nurse the dose and the pharmacy sends the medicine, and the nurse figures out how to give the appropriate dose based on what she's gotten from the pharmacy. There's actually a bit LESS math required than in the past, now that so many hospitals use computerized systems and send up accurate individual doses. But a nurse is still responsible for checking the pharmacy's work, knowing when a doctor orders a dose that's unreasonable or unsafe, and administering only safe, correct doses of medication. And you do still run into math you have to do yourself from scratch, especially in Pediatric nursing.

Nurses are not doctors' servants. We're not waitresses. We're not handmaidens. We're not your mom. We're skilled, educated professionals who are part of your health care team, with our own education, assessments, diagnoses, care plans, interventions and skills. We work WITH doctors. We do not work FOR doctors.
You should have said that before it was Bachelor's of Science in Nursing not Bachelor's degree .

Okay I got it now it not like going to school and just taking Bachelor's degree in what ever it is very focus driven.

I think it hard for one to understand the work and complexity of nursing with out looking at textbook they are given , going to school or job shadowing at hospital.

The public perception or my be my perception may be 50 or 100 years ago nurse have done .

You said math is easy ? I can tell you no high school kid can do 5% of that . I will go to store and most kids can't do basic elementary math most kids in my class don't know the multiplication table and struggle with 7 grade math.


You right going to college or university the English has to be at college or university level!! Well 7 grade English may be okay for chat room , message board and every day stuff ( I know I'm at no 7 grade English) but most jobs will not take you on and no college or university will give good marks if the English is not at college or university level.

When I was in high school most kids where not at high school level with math and English many where really bad and struggle with 7 grade .

Anyways I think we are getting bit off topic now.

Last edited by sweat209; 04-22-2013 at 04:49 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 08-09-2013, 04:09 PM
LVNurse7 LVNurse7 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
@Ca3799: What state do you live in? For salary information, can i trust these websites Indeed & LVN Salary Can you please give me some advice on being a nurse (LVN)? Thank.
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 08-11-2013, 09:57 AM
Ca3799 Ca3799 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by LVNurse7 View Post
@Ca3799: What state do you live in? For salary information, can i trust these websites Indeed & LVN Salary Can you please give me some advice on being a nurse (LVN)? Thank.
I'm in Texas.

I only checked the LVN salary site and those figures look accurate to me.

Another good site for income and other information is "ONet". It might be Onet dot gov.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 08-13-2013, 12:10 PM
Fuzzy Dunlop Fuzzy Dunlop is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Courk View Post
While, yes, there are specific definitions for each, in conversation the tendency is to use "university" and "college" interchangeably.
There aren't even specific definitions of each. It's just some stupid distinction esmeralda2 has decided is what everyone has to use. But luckily none of us have to listen to esmeralda2

If anything the formal definition of college in the U.S. is that a college is a constituent part of a university. As in the College of Nursing at New York University. But hundreds of smaller institutions of higher education named themselves colleges, and everyone understands it perfectly fine, so we don't stick to the formal definition. We "go to college" in America, even if we're attending Harvard University.

There's no reason to glibly pretend there's a specific definition everyone has to use, and if there were, esmeralda2 would have been dead wrong about what that definition is.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 08-13-2013, 11:03 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by aruvqan View Post
Well, my mother in law has a BS in Library Science, a BA in English and an Associates in Nursing, a lifetime teaching cert from Missouri and *still* takes continuing ed classes for proficiency. She has been taking at least 2 classes a year since 1964.
Health care professionals of all types have to do continuing education to stay licensed. I'm licensed in 3 states, and have to do 30 hours in each one, although fortunately I can use those 30 hours for all of them. Some states have other requirements, usually concerning law or specific diseases.

Hospitals have been trying to eliminate LPNs for at least 15 years that I know of, and they usually change their mind when they realize how many of their best people will have to go. An LPN can do pretty much everything an RN does except give blood transfusions, take verbal orders from a doctor over the telephone, and give certain medications (chemotherapy is one example) unless they have been certified.

Last edited by nearwildheaven; 08-13-2013 at 11:05 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 08-13-2013, 11:12 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyNot View Post
CNA: Certified Nursing Assistant. Most states do not require a license to be a CNA, although many keep a registry of CNAs. A CNA will give bed baths, change your sheets, bring you water, help you to the bathroom and provide other comfort care, like fluffing pillows (is if they have time for that!) and getting you an extra blanket. In many hospitals, the CNAs also take your vital signs every few hours (temperature, blood pressure, pulse) and sometimes blood sugars near meal times. Education varies, but is usually a 6 month to one year program of study. They do learn quite a bit of medical stuff, like anatomy and physiology, basic medical terminology, some very limited assessment skills. A CNA needs to be able to recognize a medical emergency or urgency, but is not expected to have the professional ability to do anything about it. His/her job is to Get The Nurse if anything is alarming.
Around here, a CNA certificate program lasts about 8 weeks, and you can't call yourself a CNA unless you've taken that class.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 08-13-2013, 11:19 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Sweat209, I hope that you are a non-native English speaker, and not just a poor writer.

I personally know someone who has a BSN and is working on an APRN degree, and she is a lifelong English speaker and her Facebook posts are more poorly written than Sweat209's posts. She also seems to believe everything she sees on Faux Nooze, so go figure.

Last edited by nearwildheaven; 08-13-2013 at 11:19 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 08-14-2013, 12:03 AM
justme2 justme2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweat209 View Post
RN cannot draw blood or give needles. That say they have to give you a sedative or morphine a doctor would say give this person this amount of sedative or morphine a RN is still not qualified to give you needle.

Not being qualified to give you a needle can get you a infection or do more harm if not giving it in right spot.

You right RN is basic education but that where advance nurse comes in .

In most daily life in hospital or nursing home most of the time will not be drawing blood or giving you needle so does NOT make sense to have these nurses walking around.
Do what? I think you may need to research what an RN does a little bit more before you paint with such a broad brush. I'm currently getting my BSN, and as an RN, I will be doing all of the above and more.

As for the education involved, I'm all for it. Being an older male nursing student, I find the required courses such as microbiology, and chem to be fascinating. Such courses are vital in preparing one for the modern nursing field. And those are just the pre-nursing courses. The core nursing courses even include such offerings as pharmacology.

Granted, not all BSN programs require such high standards (in fact there are community colleges here that do not require them). But, I thought to myself "if I'm going to do this, I might as well do it all the way - at a university" as to be fully prepared.

As a pre-nursing student at the university I attend, the majority of our coursework, surprisingly, is identical to those in pre-med.

I personally feel that there should be a standardized education path for RNs. All new RN's should be required to have a BSN, in my opinion. But, with that being said, current practicing RN's should be "grandfathered in" who don't meet that requirement.

ASN programs should be phased out, entirely.

Too many students have the mindset right now that if they somehow fail in obtaining their BSN, they can simply and easily obtain their ASN - ergo, drastically reducing the quality of RN's in the workforce. The way I see it, if you cannot cut the mustard in a BSN program, perhaps nursing isn't the right choice for you.

Sorry for my rant. It just gets to me how some still believe in the stereotype that nurses just push meds and wipe butts. Or for that matter, that only women can be (or should be) nurses.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 08-14-2013, 05:19 AM
KarlGrenze KarlGrenze is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
I personally know someone who has a BSN and is working on an APRN degree, and she is a lifelong English speaker and her Facebook posts are more poorly written than Sweat209's posts. She also seems to believe everything she sees on Faux Nooze, so go figure.
She can share a room with the one I know who has a BSN and working on an NP degree and basically rejects a lot of medical stuff, including vaccines, to the point of posting a complain on FB because she was told to wear a mask at work (since she refused the flu vaccine during flu high season).
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 08-15-2013, 07:11 PM
Sally Mander Sally Mander is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweat209 View Post
I thought there are three levels of nurses.

- nurse assisted
- RN
-Advance nurse.


The nurse assisted feed you ,take you to bathroom ,help you in and out of bed , change bedding , take you to rehab or for walk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvorange View Post
I keep starting a post to explain the different levels and what they do, but I really don't have the right kind of experience to explain it properly. I hope another nurse will jump in.

Personally, as an LPN (the lowest level of nurse), I have done catheters, blood draws, IVs, tube feedings, tracheostomy care, and wound care, etc. My current job involves a lot of sticking big needles into people.
Maybe I can help. I am a tech in an ER. I have my CNA certificate (Certified Nursing Assistant), a CMA license (Certified Medical Assistant), and an EMT certificate (Emergency Medical Technician).
I can draw blood, start IVs, check blood glucose levels, change dressings, insert foleys and do EKGs. We don't do baths or feed people in the ER, but I know on other floors, the techs assist the nurses with that kind of thing.

Last edited by Sally Mander; 08-15-2013 at 07:11 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 08-15-2013, 07:14 PM
Sally Mander Sally Mander is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
I should add, my hospital only hires RNs with a BSN. They don't even hire LPNs at all.
The hospital also provides tuition reimbursement, so a lot of them will come here to work, and let the hospital pay for their Master's degree.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@chicagoreader.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright © 2013 Sun-Times Media, LLC.