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  #1  
Old 04-12-2013, 11:42 PM
Quintas Quintas is offline
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First cousins when a brother/sister marry another brother/sister

No I dont mean a 4 way.

Paul and Jane get married. At the wedding, Jane's brother Mike meets Paul's sister Mary. They hit it off and also eventually marry.

Whats the status of the offspring? First cousins, yes. But first cousins typically have 1 set of grandparents in common. In this case they would have both sets. Is there a term for this type cousin? Genetically wouldn't they be closer to siblings?
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  #2  
Old 04-13-2013, 12:02 AM
jayjay jayjay is offline
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Double cousins (scroll down to "Additional Terms")
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  #3  
Old 04-13-2013, 12:28 AM
Mississippienne Mississippienne is offline
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Yes, they're double first cousins. My mother has two double first cousins -- her father's brother married her mother's sister. This sort of thing used to fairly common in the Old South.

Double first cousins have a coefficient of relationship of 1/4th -- equivalent to being uncle/niece or half-brother/half-sister. Interesting, few places have marriage laws specifically outlawing double first cousin unions. I know of one case where a set of identical twin brothers married a set of identical twin sisters, and each pair had a child. Legally, their kids are cousins, genetically they're siblings. AFAIK those kids didn't end up actually marrying one another, mind you.
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Old 04-13-2013, 01:34 AM
septimus septimus is offline
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One can find several marriages of double cousins in the Bourbon and Hapsburg pedigrees.

For example, France's King Louis XIII (son of King Henry IV and Maria de Medici, the famous Regent of France opposed by Richelieu) married Anne (daughter of Philip III (and II) King of Spain (and Portugal) and Margaret (both Hapsburgs). Meanwhile Louis XIII's sister Elizabeth married Anne's brother Philip IV (and III) King of Spain and Portugal. The Louis-Anne marriage produced Louis XIV the Sun-King. His first wife was Maria Theresia, the product of the Elizabeth-Philip marriage.
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  #5  
Old 04-13-2013, 06:32 AM
Beelzebubba Beelzebubba is offline
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I have three cousins (sisters) who are both my 2nd and 3rd Cousins!

They are my 2nd Cousins because their dad's dad and my dad's mother were siblings. So their dad is my dad's 1st Cousin and my 1st Cousin Once Removed, and his daughters are my 2nd Cousins.

They are my 3rd Cousins because their dad's maternal grandfather and my dad's paternal grandmother were siblings. That makes my paternal grandfather and their paternal grandmother 1st Cousins. My dad and their dad are 2nd Cousins, and that makes me their 3rd Cousin.

I also have a Great-Uncle (paternal grandmother's brother) who married mom's 1st Cousin. So my 1st Cousin Once Removed is also my Great-Aunt (by marriage).

This is what happens when a family lives in the same spot (in the South) for over 200 years....it can get ugly!
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  #6  
Old 04-13-2013, 07:21 AM
Manda JO Manda JO is online now
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I taught a family of double cousins: two brothers married two sisters and each couple had 3 kids in rapid succession, so there was a set in 9th, 10th, and 11th grades, and then on up. Because the dads were brothers they all had the same last name. It was hard to keep track of which kids were siblings and which were cousins: they all looked somewhat alike (5 girls, one boy).
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  #7  
Old 04-13-2013, 07:27 AM
Batfish Batfish is offline
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I have three double-cousins. Mom's brother married Dad's sister.
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  #8  
Old 04-13-2013, 07:42 AM
Polycarp Polycarp is offline
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North Carolina law permits marriage of first cousins but not double cousins.
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  #9  
Old 04-13-2013, 07:47 AM
jayjay jayjay is offline
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As far as personal anecdotes, I'm the grandchild of a cross-sibling marriage. My maternal grandfather married the sister of the man his sister had married. Or vice-versa...I'm not sure which couple pulled the trigger first.

Last edited by jayjay; 04-13-2013 at 07:47 AM..
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  #10  
Old 04-13-2013, 07:52 AM
sweetie pea sweetie pea is offline
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Originally Posted by jayjay View Post
As far as personal anecdotes, I'm the grandchild of a cross-sibling marriage. My maternal grandfather married the sister of the man his sister had married. Or vice-versa...I'm not sure which couple pulled the trigger first.
Thank you for that, jayjay. I'd heard the term double first cousin, but never the term cross-sibling marriage.
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  #11  
Old 04-13-2013, 09:08 AM
panache45 panache45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mississippienne View Post
I know of one case where a set of identical twin brothers married a set of identical twin sisters . . .
These would be my grandparents and grand-uncles and aunts. And some of us believe there's something like a "bad gene" in our extended family: lots of chronic depression, and more than usual number of people who never reproduced.

Oh, and to further complicate things, my paternal grandmother married my maternal grandfather (2d marriage for each).
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  #12  
Old 04-13-2013, 09:12 AM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is online now
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My mother has double cousins as well as half-siblings. Out of pure curiosity, which are genetically closer, those that share one parent and 2 grandparents (the halves) or those that share 0 parents and 4 grandparents (the doubles)?
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  #13  
Old 04-13-2013, 09:16 AM
jayjay jayjay is offline
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Originally Posted by sweetie pea View Post
Thank you for that, jayjay. I'd heard the term double first cousin, but never the term cross-sibling marriage.
Oh, don't take that as an official term. That's what I've always called it, but I can't say that's what it's "really" called.
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  #14  
Old 04-13-2013, 10:15 AM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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My mother has double cousins as well as half-siblings. Out of pure curiosity, which are genetically closer, those that share one parent and 2 grandparents (the halves) or those that share 0 parents and 4 grandparents (the doubles)?
They're on average equal. But note that for anything other than a pure ancestor-descendant relationship, the amount of genetic relatedness can vary somewhat (it's theoretically possible to have siblings that are genetically no more related than any two random humans).
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  #15  
Old 04-13-2013, 10:59 AM
Dendarii Dame Dendarii Dame is online now
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My high school had a lot of twins, most of whom were identical. The school paper did an article about them, and a reporter told two girls that she wanted to interview them for the paper. Not only were they not twins (although they sure looked identical), they weren't even sisters. They were double first cousins.
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  #16  
Old 04-13-2013, 11:25 AM
John Mace John Mace is online now
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Originally Posted by panache45 View Post
These would be my grandparents and grand-uncles and aunts. And some of us believe there's something like a "bad gene" in our extended family: lots of chronic depression, and more than usual number of people who never reproduced..
We may have found the elusive "gay gene"!
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  #17  
Old 04-13-2013, 11:31 AM
Ferret Herder Ferret Herder is offline
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I have a pair of cousins (brother-sister) who were same-gender best-friends with another brother-sister pair from childhood. In their early 20s or so, the opposite-gender non-related people started dating each other (i.e., dating their best friend's sibling/their sibling's best friend) and then got married in a double wedding.

It's several years later, and thank goodness they're still together and apparently happy, because I cannot imagine the problems if one couple broke up. You'd risk pissing off/losing your best friend, or getting your best friend pissed off at their only sibling, you might cause friction for your sibling and their marriage, your parents would still have to deal with your ex-MIL/FIL because your sibling is still married into the family, plus you'd still see your ex-inlaws (and maybe ex-spouse) at your own family get-togethers!

Last edited by Ferret Herder; 04-13-2013 at 11:33 AM..
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  #18  
Old 04-13-2013, 12:44 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is online now
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I have twelve (or so) double cousins (not sure how many kids in that family). Dad's older brother fixed him up with his girlfriend's sister back in about 1951 or so. Both arrangements worked out to the satisfaction of all concerned.
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  #19  
Old 04-13-2013, 01:11 PM
Andy L Andy L is online now
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Originally Posted by Beelzebubba View Post
I have three cousins (sisters) who are both my 2nd and 3rd Cousins!

They are my 2nd Cousins because their dad's dad and my dad's mother were siblings. So their dad is my dad's 1st Cousin and my 1st Cousin Once Removed, and his daughters are my 2nd Cousins.

They are my 3rd Cousins because their dad's maternal grandfather and my dad's paternal grandmother were siblings. That makes my paternal grandfather and their paternal grandmother 1st Cousins. My dad and their dad are 2nd Cousins, and that makes me their 3rd Cousin.

I also have a Great-Uncle (paternal grandmother's brother) who married mom's 1st Cousin. So my 1st Cousin Once Removed is also my Great-Aunt (by marriage).

This is what happens when a family lives in the same spot (in the South) for over 200 years....it can get ugly!
I have a similar situation - my father's much older brother married my materal grandmother's sister - so their children are my first cousins on my father's side, and my first cousins once removed on my mother's side.
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  #20  
Old 04-13-2013, 01:39 PM
Beelzebubba Beelzebubba is offline
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Originally Posted by panache45 View Post
These would be my grandparents and grand-uncles and aunts. And some of us believe there's something like a "bad gene" in our extended family: lots of chronic depression, and more than usual number of people who never reproduced.

Oh, and to further complicate things, my paternal grandmother married my maternal grandfather (2d marriage for each).
What the hell, I might as well confess the dirty little secret I discovered a couple of years ago. I started researching my family history and building a family tree about six years ago. One of the reasons I found it so interesting is because I never knew any of my paternal grandfather's family (other than his slightly older brother and much younger sister). Even though he had several aunts and uncles still living when I was a child and they all lived within 10 miles of us, I never met them once. The same goes for his 1st cousins and so on, never met a single one of them either....

My great-grandmother (my dad's paternal grandmother) committed suicide in 1956 at the age of 57. She went out to the barn with the shotgun and used her toe to pull the trigger while the end of the barrel was in her mouth!

I had always heard that 'Mama Reece' had mental problems, but no one elaborted beyond that. My paternal grandfather died in 1998, but my paternal grandmother lived until Feb 2012. She was diagnosed with inoperable cancer in Nov 2011 and she was much more open to my questions and was forthcoming with a lot of informaiton that put a lot of things into perspective!

Mama Reece had been sent to the State Mental Hosptial at least four times during the last few years of her life. I am convinced that she was severely bi-polar, OCD and suffered from ADD of some type. I also think there's a good chance that she was schizophrenic, but none of those diagnoses existed back then, much less the medication and therapy necessary to help someone with multiple mental illnesses!

She stayed at the 'looney bin' for at least two weeks and usually for a full month or longer. The last two times she went there, they kept for a full month each time and she received ECT (Electroconvulsive Therapy) which was still experimental and potentially fatal at the time. She was never the same after the first round of ECT, according to my grandparents.

A few years ago, I ran across an unusual situation with the family tree. I had accidentally entered my paternal great-grandfather's father as the brother of my paternal great-grandmother's mother. I spent several hours backtracking and trying to figure out what happened, then it suddenly became clear...I hadn't accidentally entered anyone and my great-grandfather's father and great-grandmother's mother were brother and sister!!! My great-grandparents were 1st cousins, she had a history of serious mental problems and they still got married and had three children together!!!

My great-uncle, three years older than my Pop (grandfather), was intelligent and he retired from a supervisory position at the Ford Atlanta Assembly Plant. But he was very strange at times and prone to emotional outbursts, which seem perfectly reasonable now that I know the circumstances!

My grandfather was very intelligent and an excellent business man who loved everyone and never met a stranger. He was kind, loving and honest to a fault. Somehow, he wasn't forced to pay for his parents' sins...

His baby sister, Betty, was 10 years younger than Poppa. She was also mentally retarded and barely functional at times. She met a truck driver when she was 19 and they were married just four days later! He was a despicable and cruel excuse for a man and he was capable of evil acts that most people couldn't fathom without vomiting!

On their wedding night, he started 'pimping' her out to any stranger with cash or drugs in hand!!! He also beat her countless times, and the final beating almost killed her! She was in Ohio and called my grandfather to tell him what was happening. It was the first he heard of it and he and my great-uncle got in the car and drove 14 hours one-way to get her and bring her home. They got her back to Georgia only to discover that she was pregnant....l

She had a son, who miraculously was very healthy at birth. My grandpa bought her a trailer and parked it in their back yard so he and my grandma could keep an eye on her and her new baby. When he was just a few weeks old, my grandma walked out to find him in his 'walker' wearing only a wet and dirty diaper....he was in the yard with no shirt, socks, or anything else and it was below freezing outside! They realized that she wasn't capable of taking care of the child and started exploring the options for finding a good family to raise him! Her bastard troll husband swore that it was NOT his child and belonged to some anonymous 'John', and he never paid a cent in child support.

The sadistic bastard had a brother and sister-in-law who were genuinely good people. They heard about the situation somehow and his brother contacted my grandfather. After spending a great deal of time talking and getting to know one another, my grandparents sent him (he was about 18mos old) to live with his (potential) aunt and uncle. They honestly didn't care if he was their blood nephew or not, they just wanted to give him a safe and loving home. Many years later, a blood test proved that the evil husband was the father, but it had little relevance at that point.

So her son had a very happy childhood and grew up with a brother and sister, both a few years older than him. He calls his aunt and uncle "Mom and Dad" and refers to his birth mother as "Betty", which is understandable. It's no longer an issue since Betty died in 1997.

He eventually fell in love and got married when he was 23. After several years of trying to get pregnant with no success, he learned that he is sterile!

My great-uncle was also sterile. He and my great-aunt ended up adopting a daughter after trying for several years then consulting with a specialist who determined that he was uanble to father a child!

My grandparents started trying to get pregnant immediately after they married. It took four years for it to finally happen. They hoped for at least one more child after my dad, but they were never able to conceive again!

I was asked to be the 'donor' father for a lesbian couple who I dearly love. During that process, I learned that I am aslo sterile! I'm single and gay, with no plans to change either on either count, so it wasn't a life-altering discovery for me. But it was and is interesting from a genetic perspective knowing my family history. The lesbians were devastated, which I found very touching- they wanted a kid as many of my personality traits as possible! =) But I still managed to come thru for them- I got my better looking, younger (by 5 years) and reasonably intelligent step-brother to be the donor....he's also gay, which was a requirement for the sperm donor! It's very amusing now that their daughter is almost 13.....despite both biological parents being homosexual and being raised exclusively by two lesbian moms, she has started to notice BOYS!!! Even though they live in Houston and I'm in North Georgia, she and I are very close. She calls me Uncle Jason and refers to me as her "almost Dad".

My only biological sibling is my sister and she is almost 3yrs older than me. She also started trying to get pregnant shortly after she and my bro-in-law got married, but she had three miscarriages in the first 5yrs of their marriage. After almost 7yrs of trying, she got pregnant and made it to the 2nd trimester, which was longer than she carried the other three. All three miscarriages were in the 1st trimester.

Around the 20-week point, her body started trying to go into labor. She was admitted to the hospital on strict bed rest for the remainder of the pregnancy! They had to give her very high doses of multiple drugs to prevent her from going into labor. At the 28/29 week point, the drugs caused her blood pressure to increase to almost double stroke-level! She also had severe toxemia and some sort of blood poisoning, along with a host of other nasty medical complicaitons. Her life was seriously in danger and the doctor made the decision to take her off of the drugs that were preventing labor and pray for the best! Within six hours of removing the IV, she started having contractions. My tiny little nephew was born a few hours later and he was tiny, a few months premature and he had a cone-head, but he was perfect! My sister was 27 when he was born, she has never been able to get pregnant again in the 13 years since!

My father is a recovering alcoholic (22 years sober). My sister is a sociopath (sad, but true, I diagnosed her myself!) and I have dealt with severe depression, ADD, debilitating anxiety and random panic attacks!

Shortly after my nephew was born, an idiot doctor told my sister that he though my two-week old nephew might have Cystic Fibrosis! Thank God he didn't, but my sister and I learned that we are both CF carriers!

More recently, in Dec 2011, my grandmother's oncologist suggested that my dad (an only child) go for genetic testing based on the history of cancer in our family. If dad's test showed nothing, my sister and I were off the hook. If not, she and I both would need to be tested.

It turns out that Dad has the BRCA mutation that increases the chance of having certain types of cancer exponentially! I also have the same BRCA mutation, but thank God my sister does NOT! For men, this particular mutation isn't nearly as serious as it is in women! For men, it double the chance of prostate cancer and increases the chance of colon cancer by about 40$.. In women with the mutation, there is a 93% chance of having breast cancer by the age of 70. They are also several times more likely to have cervical and ovarian cancer at a much younger age than usual for those types of cancer. So I'm so glad my sister doesn't have it, even if she is a sociopath!

So that's my looonnnnggg story....I'm a neurotic, queer, mentally ill product of incest and insantiy! I also carry at least two very serious genetic diseases and I am unable to reproduce, even if I wanted to!

But I'm still not sure that the Universe/Mother Nature/God screwed me over! I have an IQ that places me in the top 1.5% of the population. I don't use words such as 'genius' or 'super-human' because that just seems tacky, even if the terms are technically appropriate.....

I also have custody of my 6-year old niece and 2.5yr old nephew. I share custody with my parents' because their mom (my little step-sister, who my mom eventually adopted) is a heroin addict. =( I was right there in the room when each of them was born and I've always been one of the few consistent, stable and safe things in their lives. I actually brought my nephew home directly from the hospital two days after he was born in Oct 2010. His father is now clean (no drugs or alcohol, court monitored) and just moved in to my parents' basement last month. As long as he stays on the path he's on and keeps working, I allow him to be in my nephew's life as much as possible! My niece has a different father and he is currently in prison. So my nephew's dad, Greg, tries very hard to include her in everything they do. They are brother and sister (half-siblings, but that's irrelevant since they're so little) and I have NEVER once called them my step-niece or step-nephew....but if my litlte sister never manages to get it together and keep it together, I may try to adopt one or both of them!

They are my kids, even if they came from someone else, they were meant for me! It is my job to love them and make them feel safe and secure every second of every day, no matter what....that's what makes someone a parent, not a DNA test....
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Old 04-13-2013, 08:50 PM
Mississippienne Mississippienne is offline
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
One can find several marriages of double cousins in the Bourbon and Hapsburg pedigrees.

For example, France's King Louis XIII (son of King Henry IV and Maria de Medici, the famous Regent of France opposed by Richelieu) married Anne (daughter of Philip III (and II) King of Spain (and Portugal) and Margaret (both Hapsburgs). Meanwhile Louis XIII's sister Elizabeth married Anne's brother Philip IV (and III) King of Spain and Portugal. The Louis-Anne marriage produced Louis XIV the Sun-King. His first wife was Maria Theresia, the product of the Elizabeth-Philip marriage.
The Habsburgs got freakishly inbred for awhile there, routinely marrying uncle to niece and double first cousins to each other. Part of it was a desire to keep certain lands in the family, and part of it was a lack of other Catholic dynasties of equivalent rank to marry with -- so the Habsburgs tended to marry other Habsburgs. The notoriously inbred and pathetic Carlos II of Spain, physically and mentally deficient, is the most famous result of this, but astonishingly Carlos II had a full-sister, Margarita Teresa, who married their uncle and produced a surviving daughter of her own, Maria Antonia.

Maria Antonia of Austria, the aforementioned niece of Carlos II, may be the most inbred European royal in recent-ish history of whom we have good documentation. Most people have 31 great-great-grandparents; Maria Antonia had only ten unique great-great-grandparents, and all of those ancestors were all closely related to one another. She was decended from her great-great-grandparents, Archduke Charles II of Austria and his wife Maria Anna of Bavaria (who were uncle and niece themselves), three times.

Somewhat less famously, the Chinggisids (descendants of Genghis Khan) also tightly intermarried. Although the khans took many wives and concubines, their successors were almost always the sons of their chief wife, who was usually very closely related to them. They often married nieces and cousins, and even weirder, when a khan died his concubines would be inherited by his sons or brothers. This sometimes resulted in messes like that of Kokaji, a concubine to three Il-Khans of Persia in succession (Arghun, his brother Ghaykhatu, and Arghun's son Ghazan) and had children by all three of them.

Hulagu Khan's daughter Todogach married Tanggis, khan of the Oirats, then after his death married Tanggis' son Sulamish, and after his death married Sulamish's son Chechak. So she was married to grandfather, son, and grandson. It gets weirder. Todogach and Sulamish had a daughter, Oljatai, who married Arghun, Il-Khan of Persia (who's father, Abaka, was a son of Hulagu). Another of Arghun's wives was Kutlug, daughter of Tanggis by his other wife, a daughter of Guyuk Khan (himself son of Ogodei). Kutlug was the mother of Ghazan, Il-Khan of Persia. Hulagu and Guyuk's fathers, Tolui and Ogodei respectively, were brothers and sons of Genghis Khan. Is your head spinning yet?
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  #22  
Old 04-14-2013, 09:50 AM
Batfish Batfish is offline
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You know, this really wasn't a thread about inbreeding.
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  #23  
Old 04-14-2013, 09:07 PM
Fair Rarity Fair Rarity is offline
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I have triple first cousins in my family. Three brothers married three sisters. Made it very confusing for me as a child trying to figure out why all the adults had the same last name after marriage.
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  #24  
Old 04-14-2013, 11:07 PM
panache45 panache45 is offline
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
We may have found the elusive "gay gene"!
There are 23 in my generation. Two of us are out, and I have suspicions of two more. one of whom has kids. The "bad gene" is only on my father's side of the family. I think some of them are asexual.
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Old 04-15-2013, 03:32 AM
septimus septimus is offline
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I have triple first cousins in my family. Three brothers married three sisters. Made it very confusing for me as a child trying to figure out why all the adults had the same last name after marriage.
Sorry to be the perennial nitpicker, but I don't think this is properly called "triple cousins." Any pair from the three marriages will be "double cousins" because they share four of four grandparents ... but sharing more than four is impossible!

There's an odd situation involving my neighbors, which also isn't "triple cousins" though it seems it should have a name like that:

Two brothers married two unrelated women. One of the wives has a brother who married the sister of the other wife. (Note that there's no inbreeding involved.) All three couples are our neighbors; in fact I just shared a beer with the man whose sister's brother-in-law is married to this man's sister-in-law.
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Old 04-15-2013, 05:11 AM
brownsugar brownsugar is offline
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what a what a
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:15 AM
Annie-Xmas Annie-Xmas is offline
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Laura Ingalls Wilder had two sets of double first cousins--her father's brother married her mother's sister and vice versa.

Fred & Martha Gilbreth, of Cheaper by the Dozen fame, married a sister and brother, Jessie & Richard Tallman.
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:05 AM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is online now
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Sorry to be the perennial nitpicker, but I don't think this is properly called "triple cousins." Any pair from the three marriages will be "double cousins" because they share four of four grandparents ... but sharing more than four is impossible!

There's an odd situation involving my neighbors, which also isn't "triple cousins" though it seems it should have a name like that:

Two brothers married two unrelated women. One of the wives has a brother who married the sister of the other wife. (Note that there's no inbreeding involved.) All three couples are our neighbors; in fact I just shared a beer with the man whose sister's brother-in-law is married to this man's sister-in-law.
This happened in my family, too. My grandfather's brother married my grandmother's sister. That grandfather's sister and another one of my grandmother's sisters married a pair of brothers.
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  #29  
Old 04-15-2013, 10:20 AM
Jman Jman is offline
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Originally Posted by Mississippienne View Post
Double first cousins have a coefficient of relationship of 1/4th -- equivalent to being uncle/niece or half-brother/half-sister.
Siblings have a relationship of 1/4...uncle/neice is 1/8, and I'm assuming double cousins are 1/8 as well. Regular first cousins share 1/16 of their DNA.

Last edited by Jman; 04-15-2013 at 10:20 AM..
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  #30  
Old 04-15-2013, 08:17 PM
Fair Rarity Fair Rarity is offline
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Sorry to be the perennial nitpicker, but I don't think this is properly called "triple cousins." Any pair from the three marriages will be "double cousins" because they share four of four grandparents ... but sharing more than four is impossible!
I use the term not in a genetic sense, but in a humorous way to say my great-grandparents really liked each other's families a lot... or there weren't a lot of other eligible single people in their town.
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Old 04-15-2013, 08:25 PM
maggenpye maggenpye is offline
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Originally Posted by Fair Rarity View Post
I use the term not in a genetic sense, but in a humorous way to say my great-grandparents really liked each other's families a lot... or there weren't a lot of other eligible single people in their town.
We have a similar joke in my family where one set of twins married another set of twins - we're all very relieved the various offspring moved to different countries before finding mates.
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  #32  
Old 04-15-2013, 09:00 PM
FuzzyOgre FuzzyOgre is offline
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My dad has 12 double first cousins. The wives of his father and uncle are sisters. Both couples had 12 children. No miscarriages either.

So I have 12 double first cousins once removed(if I understand how it works), 24 first cousins, and probably ~24 double second cousins, and since they are all having kids too, 50 more cousins of some sort from them. My first cousins have a bunch of kids too.

It gets confusing.
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