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  #1  
Old 04-20-2013, 04:54 AM
astro astro is offline
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How can we trust knife fighting "experts" if most have never been in a real knife fight?

In reading this article it made some good points. How can we trust knife fighting "experts" if most have never been in a real knife fight?

Can we really trust most knife fighters techniques if most knife fight instructors (in the US at least) don't have any real world life or death knife fight experience?
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  #2  
Old 04-20-2013, 03:32 PM
ducati ducati is offline
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I'm a pretty good firearms instructor.

I've never shot anyone, although I have been shot at.

I'd trust Michael Janich. He's been around.
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  #3  
Old 04-20-2013, 03:37 PM
TriPolar TriPolar is online now
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Knife fighting experts could study known knife fights and report on what was successful even if they're never been in a knife fight themself. Some of it is a matter of physics too.

I'd have a tendency not to trust someone who has a lot of experience in actual knife fights. They're either very bad people, or not smart enough to avoid knife fights.
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  #4  
Old 04-20-2013, 03:37 PM
drachillix drachillix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astro View Post
In reading this article it made some good points. How can we trust knife fighting "experts" if most have never been in a real knife fight?

Can we really trust most knife fighters techniques if most knife fight instructors (in the US at least) don't have any real world life or death knife fight experience?
Because drilling with a rubber knife still lets you know what the outcome would have been without all the blood ,screaming, and insurance paperwork..
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  #5  
Old 04-20-2013, 03:44 PM
Alessan Alessan is offline
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Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
I'd have a tendency not to trust someone who has a lot of experience in actual knife fights. They're either very bad people, or not smart enough to avoid knife fights.
This. There are very few legitimate lifestyle choices that produce individuals with experience in killing people with knives. Even Delta/SAS/superninjacommando types prefer to use guns.
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  #6  
Old 04-20-2013, 04:21 PM
wheresmymind wheresmymind is offline
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Man, if we can't trust knife fighting experts, who can we trust? What is this world coming to? I weep for the children!
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  #7  
Old 04-20-2013, 07:44 PM
astro astro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
Knife fighting experts could study known knife fights and report on what was successful even if they're never been in a knife fight themself. Some of it is a matter of physics too.

I'd have a tendency not to trust someone who has a lot of experience in actual knife fights. They're either very bad people, or not smart enough to avoid knife fights.
Hah! I laughed out loud!
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  #8  
Old 04-20-2013, 08:32 PM
BMalion BMalion is offline
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I have actually met Animal, the author of the linked article in the OP. He is an amazing man who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks, has been there, done that and turned his life around.

If he says it, it is wise to listen.
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  #9  
Old 04-20-2013, 08:37 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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I read once from a knife fighting expert that most knife fighting trainers teach you how to basically fight in what would be a highly illegal knife duel. But historically most experts in blade weapons get that way through rigorous training with blunted weapons and etc. The first time a knight fought on the battlefield he was still going to be pretty good at using his sword, moreso than a recently mustered man-at-arms who didn't have his years of practice flights. He wouldn't be the equal of a grizzled veteran, but training with blunted blade weapons can still teach you the principles...
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  #10  
Old 04-20-2013, 08:58 PM
Cubsfan Cubsfan is offline
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That is one long ass article. Interesting read but long as hell.

I'm not a knife fighting master so I have no position.
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  #11  
Old 04-21-2013, 01:12 AM
White SIFL White SIFL is offline
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Originally Posted by wheresmymind View Post
Man, if we can't trust knife fighting experts, who can we trust? What is this world coming to? I weep for the children!
My new motto.
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  #12  
Old 04-21-2013, 04:50 AM
rogerbox rogerbox is offline
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You can't trust knife fighting experts really, the same way you cant trust "martial arts" instructors who have never actually put any of the techniques they teach to use. This is the weakness of non-competitive martial arts, bad techniques don't get removed because you don't use them to know they're junk in practice.

This isn't anything new, with the fall of the Feudal Era in Japan, it was noted that suddenly there were CRAPLOADS of sword schools opening up and eventually peace-time samurai who didn't know about war were also teaching swordsmanship without having ever even been in a duel. Of course, there has to be a balance between practicality (You can't really challenge people to knife fights to the death to learn if you're good). I have both heard some ridiculous claims from martial arts instructors, and idiotic claims and techniques from friends who took martial arts. They believed some stupidly flawed techniques would help them win fights.

Simple rule is, everyone gets cut in a knife fight.

Last edited by rogerbox; 04-21-2013 at 04:52 AM..
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  #13  
Old 04-21-2013, 05:35 AM
drewtwo99 drewtwo99 is offline
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I honestly had no fucking clue knife fighting was a "thing." I thought a "knife fight" was basically some thugs come up, overpower you, and stab you and steal your shit.
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  #14  
Old 04-21-2013, 05:38 AM
rogerbox rogerbox is offline
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That is a real knife fight. A duel where two guys agree on mutual combat and pull their own knives at the same time happens about as often in real life as simultaneous orgasms.
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  #15  
Old 04-21-2013, 06:08 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheresmymind View Post
Man, if we can't trust knife fighting experts, who can we trust? What is this world coming to? I weep for the children!
You should always trust a knife fighting expert.




Because he might stab you for doubting him.
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  #16  
Old 04-21-2013, 07:49 AM
AtomicDog AtomicDog is offline
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Rule #1 for a knife fight: bring a gun.
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  #17  
Old 04-21-2013, 07:56 AM
AtomicDog AtomicDog is offline
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc
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  #18  
Old 04-21-2013, 01:00 PM
Balance Balance is offline
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Originally Posted by AtomicDog View Post
On the other hand: Mythbusters on bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Briefly: The guy with the gun should not get cocky.
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  #19  
Old 04-21-2013, 01:03 PM
Nzinga, Seated Nzinga, Seated is offline
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Originally Posted by drewtwo99 View Post
I honestly had no fucking clue knife fighting was a "thing." I thought a "knife fight" was basically some thugs come up, overpower you, and stab you and steal your shit.
Haha, me too, drew. Me too.
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  #20  
Old 04-21-2013, 06:27 PM
Freddy the Pig Freddy the Pig is offline
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I'm quite certain that I would wet my pants if faced with a knife fight, so all the experts in the world wouldn't do me much good, no matter how trustworthy they might be.
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  #21  
Old 04-21-2013, 07:04 PM
AtomicDog AtomicDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Balance View Post
On the other hand: Mythbusters on bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Briefly: The guy with the gun should not get cocky.
And I saw that episode, too!

Well played, sir. Well played.
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  #22  
Old 04-21-2013, 08:05 PM
Trinopus Trinopus is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicDog View Post
Rule #1 for a knife fight: bring a gun.
Or a ballistic knife. (I'm so goddamn mad they didn't use that joke in the "Punisher" movie!)
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  #23  
Old 04-21-2013, 10:22 PM
the_diego the_diego is offline
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Neither Angelo Dundee nor Freddie Roach ever became champion.
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  #24  
Old 04-22-2013, 12:53 AM
rogerbox rogerbox is offline
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Whenever I tell people that you have to be farther than 20 feet for even an out of shape guy to pull a knife and stab someone before the other guy pulls his gun, and removes the safety and fires, no one EVER believes me.
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  #25  
Old 04-22-2013, 01:22 AM
the_diego the_diego is offline
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That rule doesn't always hold. The Royal Canadian Mounties practice their pistol draws at suspects who make a sudden move less than half that distance.

People also don't believe me when I say that 6 feet (toe-to-toe distance) is striking distance for a trained karate fighter.
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  #26  
Old 04-22-2013, 01:23 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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Not sure I'd be terribly inclined to take any kind of guidance from someone who has been in dozens of knife fights.

I'm 45 and I've never been in a single knife fight in my whole life. I'm already doing something right that an experienced knife fighter must keep getting wrong.
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  #27  
Old 04-22-2013, 12:04 PM
rogerbox rogerbox is offline
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Originally Posted by the_diego View Post
That rule doesn't always hold. The Royal Canadian Mounties practice their pistol draws at suspects who make a sudden move less than half that distance.

People also don't believe me when I say that 6 feet (toe-to-toe distance) is striking distance for a trained karate fighter.
If the purpose of the exercise is to teach gun owners (not military) that their gun won't help them in the ranges they think it will, then it might save their lives if they gain space while drawing against a knife attacker (which is counter intuitive). Also, I have never seen anyone open carry in a holster like that before, so if your gun is concealed, add another 20 feet to the "knife>gun" range.

Still though, I can't imagine why knife-guy would even reveal his knife from 20+ feet away and do a charge like that. I've seen a knife fight and the guy pulled the knife from about 7 feet away and started swinging wildly, the other guy definitely would've gotten stabbed in the cramped space (a bus) if he had stood and pulled a gun instead of started using his advantage-being up the stairs while knife guy was down the stairs on the bus-to kick the hell out of the other guy.
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  #28  
Old 04-22-2013, 12:17 PM
TriPolar TriPolar is online now
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Originally Posted by Mangetout View Post
Not sure I'd be terribly inclined to take any kind of guidance from someone who has been in dozens of knife fights.

I'm 45 and I've never been in a single knife fight in my whole life. I'm already doing something right that an experienced knife fighter must keep getting wrong.
It's kind of like looking for advice from an experienced Kamikaze pilot.
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  #29  
Old 04-22-2013, 12:41 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Nothing is like the real thing. Unfortunately, the more a knife fighter experiences the real thing, the more likely it is that he is dead.

The writer of the article is quite correct - it is rarely a knife "fight". Usually it is a knife "attack". But I never heard anyone who knew anything about martial arts say what the author claims is one of the lies - "it's easy to disarm an armed opponent". No it isn't, and in some ways it is harder to deal with a knife-wielder than a gunman. (You can't lock the action on a knife, for one thing.)

So who do you trust? No matter who you trust, defense against a knife, or knife-fighting in general, is a high-risk proposition. And most of those who have found this out from first-hand experience are not here to talk about it.

Regards,
Shodan
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  #30  
Old 04-22-2013, 04:57 PM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
It's kind of like looking for advice from an experienced Kamikaze pilot.
Or indeed, marital guidance from someone who has been in lots of different marriages.
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  #31  
Old 04-22-2013, 08:15 PM
ExTank ExTank is offline
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Originally Posted by rogerbox View Post
Simple rule is, everyone gets cut in a knife fight.
I've heard that there's two outcomes to a knife fight: the loser is dead, and the winner is bleeding profusely.

Last edited by ExTank; 04-22-2013 at 08:15 PM..
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  #32  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:17 PM
Llama Llogophile Llama Llogophile is offline
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I read this article the other day and was curious to see if there were any references to Gurkha soldiers (none). Their traditional weapon is the kukri knife, and I wonder what their philosophy is for its use. Is it more of a ceremonial weapon, or do they really train with it expecting to use it?

A couple of years ago a Gurkha took on about a dozen train robbers with his kukri and sent them running for their lives. I wonder about his opinion on this.

Last edited by Llama Llogophile; 04-22-2013 at 09:18 PM..
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  #34  
Old 04-22-2013, 09:54 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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Funny Conan knife fighting video. (talk show host...not the barbarian)
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  #35  
Old 04-23-2013, 03:17 AM
Nametag Nametag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Llama Llogophile View Post
I read this article the other day and was curious to see if there were any references to Gurkha soldiers (none). Their traditional weapon is the kukri knife, and I wonder what their philosophy is for its use. Is it more of a ceremonial weapon, or do they really train with it expecting to use it?

A couple of years ago a Gurkha took on about a dozen train robbers with his kukri and sent them running for their lives. I wonder about his opinion on this.
The issued knife has a 9 to 10-inch blade -- big, but not much bigger than a Bowie knife. The gigantic machete-sized kukri you see in photos is often a ceremonial weapon, but more often a tool for chopping wood or butchering meat.

And Bishnu Shrestha took on 30 train robbers, killing 3, injuring 8. The rest fled, but he was injured as well (my recollection is that he lost the use of his left hand).
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  #36  
Old 04-23-2013, 10:58 AM
shiftless shiftless is offline
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As a fun exercise in knife defense, my martial arts group did this a few times: Everyone wore white outfits and the knife attackers carried a marker pen (non-permanent ink.) The defenders were somewhat limited in that, of course, we had to be careful to not injure the attackers but it was otherwise a good exercise.

It took very little time before I had marks all over my front, arms and hands. Probably not deadly cuts but the hand cuts would have been serious. Trying to kick the knife out of the hand, like in the movies, was good for a laugh. We didn't try 'knife' against 'knife.'
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  #37  
Old 04-23-2013, 01:39 PM
GusNSpot GusNSpot is online now
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Situational awareness.
Situational awareness.
Situational awareness.
Situational awareness.
Situational awareness.

And sometimes you will be surprised anyway.
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  #38  
Old 04-23-2013, 01:57 PM
The Great Sun Jester The Great Sun Jester is offline
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I have a very good friend who was quite adept at eskrima when he was younger (marriage, jobs, kids, etc. kinda moved it off the priority list). Using dull wooden knives or permanent markers, he killed me within seconds countless times in the back yard and I never got close to 'cutting' him (except for when I threw my marker at him and put a dot on his forehead). I'm confident he could have handled himself alright during te real thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
I'd have a tendency not to trust someone who has a lot of experience in actual knife fights. They're either very bad people, or not smart enough to avoid knife fights.
You've GOT to use this for a sigline. I would, but I'm unworthy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerbox View Post
That is a real knife fight. A duel where two guys agree on mutual combat and pull their own knives at the same time happens about as often in real life as simultaneous orgasms.
Must be a helluvalotta knife fighting in a small suburb of southwest Denver.

Last edited by The Great Sun Jester; 04-23-2013 at 01:57 PM..
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  #39  
Old 04-23-2013, 02:05 PM
Lukeinva Lukeinva is offline
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Originally Posted by AtomicDog View Post
Rule #1 for a knife fight: bring a gun.
Rules? In a knife fight?
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  #40  
Old 04-23-2013, 02:42 PM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Llama Llogophile View Post
I read this article the other day and was curious to see if there were any references to Gurkha soldiers (none). Their traditional weapon is the kukri knife, and I wonder what their philosophy is for its use. Is it more of a ceremonial weapon, or do they really train with it expecting to use it?

A couple of years ago a Gurkha took on about a dozen train robbers with his kukri and sent them running for their lives. I wonder about his opinion on this.
My understanding is that Gurkhas do train to kill using their knives. I read an account of a soldier who fought alongside Ghurka soldiers in Burma in WW2 (the author of the Flashman novels, as it turns out) and he was pretty clear that Gurkhas actually used knives in combat.

But, of course, it was not "knive versus knife" combat - they were killing enemy soldiers with knives, but not in some sort of duel.
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  #41  
Old 04-23-2013, 03:30 PM
The Great Sun Jester The Great Sun Jester is offline
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* Gurkha looks enemy in the eye from 200 yards, Gurkha looks at his knife, Gurkha looks back at his enemy, enemy drops dead just to save a lot of bother *
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  #42  
Old 04-23-2013, 03:51 PM
appleciders appleciders is offline
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Originally Posted by Nametag View Post

And Bishnu Shrestha took on 30 train robbers, killing 3, injuring 8. The rest fled, but he was injured as well (my recollection is that he lost the use of his left hand).
And weren't the train robbers basically unarmed? If I recall, they had fake pistols and puny little knives, and he faced them off in a narrow train car where they couldn't gang up on him.
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  #43  
Old 04-23-2013, 10:33 PM
Clothahump Clothahump is offline
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Originally Posted by Balance View Post
On the other hand: Mythbusters on bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Briefly: The guy with the gun should not get cocky.
They make a valid point. Someone with a knife will cut the hell out of someone with a holstered firearm up to about 20 feet. Ask any police officer. They will tell you they would much rather face someone with a gun vs. someone with a knife.
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  #44  
Old 04-24-2013, 07:10 AM
Dinsdale Dinsdale is offline
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I always thought knife tapping and disarms were fun to practice, and knife-on-knife sparring was good for training footwork, distance, lines of attack and such. But when it came to practical self defense I thought it most useful to work on efficient draw and repeated slash and stab of selected targets - against individual and multiple opponents.
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  #45  
Old 04-24-2013, 10:18 AM
flight flight is offline
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Adding another data point. I have been in one knife fight where the opponent had a foot long knife and I was unarmed. I could not run away because I did not want them to get back the rifle I had just taken from them and shoot more people. They obviously were untrained with the knife.

I am confident any basic knife defense technique would have worked very well as they were swinging the knife as easily as if it was a training exercise in a martial arts class. Fortunately for me as I was remembering my training and preparing to disarm her, she went too far on the follow through of a swing and stabbed herself in the leg. Fight over.

So, I would say the results probably have more to do with how experienced the aggressor is than anything else.
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  #46  
Old 04-24-2013, 12:20 PM
The Great Sun Jester The Great Sun Jester is offline
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...she went too far on the follow through of a swing and stabbed herself in the leg. Fight over.
Your totally a Jedi--admit it, you made her stab herself.
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  #47  
Old 04-24-2013, 01:26 PM
flight flight is offline
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Funny thing, had I done the defense technique properly it would have caused her to likely stab herself just where she did. She just cut out the middle man and did it herself.
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  #48  
Old 04-24-2013, 04:04 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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Funny thing, had I done the defense technique properly it would have caused her to likely stab herself just where she did. She just cut out the middle man and did it herself.
It is fortunate that your opponent was an uncoordinated moron.
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  #49  
Old 04-24-2013, 04:56 PM
BMalion BMalion is offline
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It is fortunate that your opponent was an uncoordinated moron.
With a weak mind.
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  #50  
Old 04-24-2013, 04:59 PM
TriPolar TriPolar is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
It is fortunate that your opponent was an uncoordinated moron.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMalion View Post
With a weak mind.
These qualities in your opponent provide a great advantage in any type of fight. Personally, those are the top two things I consider in selecting an opponent.
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