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  #1  
Old 05-03-2013, 03:20 PM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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India, completing its nuclear triad, building nuclear subs carrying nuclear ballistic missiles

Maybe some of you folks have heard this but it's new to me. India has already successfully test fired ballistic missiles from under the sea. Brief story here.. Launch video here. (see the bottom video on the page.)

And the are about to, or perhaps have already begun sea trials of the Arihant-class nuclear sub, designed to fire ballistic missiles. There are a bunch of news stories dated from Dec-Feb that trials were about to begin. Here is a Wiki description of the sub. FYI, India already has an operational nuclear attack sub, an Akula class that they've leased from Russia. The Arihant and sister ships are being domestically built.

Right now the missiles purportedly have a range of only about 500 miles, but the next generation is supposedly going to up that to about 3,000.

I'm just curious about your thoughts on this. I can't say I really begrudge India another nuclear card in the game when both Pakistan and China are sitting across the table. I do find it interesting that I've never heard so much as a peep about this from Washington, which is a pretty good indicator that the government is more or less ok with it. The Wiki page suggests that the US funded all or part of the development of the reactor that powers the subs.
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  #2  
Old 05-03-2013, 11:57 PM
Declan Declan is offline
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Its a stablising influence in that part of the world. No matter how the other two legs of the triad fare in a conflict, a boomer at sea will garantee that an agressor is going to get kissed.

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  #3  
Old 05-05-2013, 05:20 PM
Collaborator Collaborator is offline
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A nuclear and capable India serves as a much needed check against China and to a lesser extent Pakistan.
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  #4  
Old 05-05-2013, 05:30 PM
ralph124c ralph124c is offline
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Frankly, a nation with such poverty as India has a big problem building nuclear submarines. Who are they defending against? Yes, I know "the poor will always be with you"-but would it not be better to have the poor of India getting an adequate diet , rather than these overpriced toys?
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:34 PM
Canadjun Canadjun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph124c View Post
Frankly, a nation with such poverty as India has a big problem building nuclear submarines. Who are they defending against? Yes, I know "the poor will always be with you"-but would it not be better to have the poor of India getting an adequate diet , rather than these overpriced toys?
I seem to recall that they aren't exactly friends with Pakistan (I agree that their poor should be fed first, but I am not an Indian general or politician).
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:10 PM
Glazer Glazer is offline
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The sad fact of the mater is, if you feed the poor you only end up with more poor.
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  #7  
Old 05-05-2013, 06:14 PM
Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph124c View Post
Frankly, a nation with such poverty as India has a big problem building nuclear submarines. Who are they defending against? Yes, I know "the poor will always be with you"-but would it not be better to have the poor of India getting an adequate diet , rather than these overpriced toys?
They are defending against China & Pakistan, both of whom have fought wars with India in the past, both of whom have atomic weapons, & both of whom are increasingly "pushy" on the international scene.

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Old 05-05-2013, 06:46 PM
wheresmymind wheresmymind is offline
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Originally Posted by ralph124c View Post
Frankly, a nation with such poverty as India has a big problem building nuclear submarines. Who are they defending against? Yes, I know "the poor will always be with you"-but would it not be better to have the poor of India getting an adequate diet , rather than these overpriced toys?
India's 2013 budget is about 17 billion rupees, or a little over $300 billion. Wiki is unclear on exactly how much the subs are costing India, but it does say they are part of a "US$2.9 billion Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project to design and build nuclear-powered submarines." It presumably takes more than a year to design and build a nuclear sub from scratch, so this cost is probably spread out over a few years at least. Let's say they end up spending on the order of $3-5 billion over the course of 3-5 years. That's a billion a year out of a budget of over 300 billion, and that buys them not just the subs and the attendant national security advantages they convey, but also the fringe benefits of the technology and industrial capability necessary to do so. In addition, it gets them access to a pretty elite club - only 5 other countries have nuclear ballistic missile subs. I suspect that in the long run these benefits will serve India as a whole better than the equivalent of buying each person in India $1 worth of food per year.
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:32 PM
Qin Shi Huangdi Qin Shi Huangdi is offline
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Originally Posted by Glazer View Post
The sad fact of the mater is, if you feed the poor you only end up with more poor.
Depends. If the Indians manage to create middle-class prosperity for more of their citizens, birth-rates will decline naturally.
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  #10  
Old 05-05-2013, 07:40 PM
Glazer Glazer is offline
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Building a middle-class for a world class economy will not put a dent in the poor population of India. They are facing a population bubble. And when it pops, it's going to be ugly.
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  #11  
Old 05-06-2013, 01:36 AM
truthSeeker2 truthSeeker2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi View Post
Depends. If the Indians manage to create middle-class prosperity for more of their citizens, birth-rates will decline naturally.
Right. It is related to Literacy rates, Cable TV usage and Internet penetration. It is already showing trends of slowing down especially in South Indian states, similar results have to be emulated in some Northern states as well:
National average fertility Rate in 2011 - 2.5
South Indian States:
Tamilnadu- 1.7
Andhra Pradesh, Kerala - 1.8
Karnataka - 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheresmymind View Post
India's 2013 budget is about 17 billion rupees, or a little over $300 billion. Wiki is unclear on exactly how much the subs are costing India, but it does say they are part of a "US$2.9 billion Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project to design and build nuclear-powered submarines." It presumably takes more than a year to design and build a nuclear sub from scratch, so this cost is probably spread out over a few years at least. Let's say they end up spending on the order of $3-5 billion over the course of 3-5 years. That's a billion a year out of a budget of over 300 billion, and that buys them not just the subs and the attendant national security advantages they convey, but also the fringe benefits of the technology and industrial capability necessary to do so. In addition, it gets them access to a pretty elite club - only 5 other countries have nuclear ballistic missile subs. I suspect that in the long run these benefits will serve India as a whole better than the equivalent of buying each person in India $1 worth of food per year.
India already spends $60 billion a year in various types of subsidies for the poor. Much of it gets stolen in between n so, it doesn't reach the needy. India started a program called "Aadhar" which gives digital identity(using biometric identification through fingerprints and iris recognition) to each of the 1.2 billion residents. This is help in disbursal of subsidies directly to the needy. This is one of the many uses of Aadhar. About 340 million people have already been enrolled in Aadhar in an year, projected 600 million by end 2014. Watch this (from 13 mins onwards) video for knowing more about it. This is its website and here it shows the data.

Last edited by truthSeeker2; 05-06-2013 at 01:41 AM..
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  #12  
Old 05-06-2013, 04:25 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is online now
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Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi View Post
Depends. If the Indians manage to create middle-class prosperity for more of their citizens, birth-rates will decline naturally.
If only there was some sort of long-term, high-tech project that would require the skills of, and hence employ, a whole bunch of middle-class scientists, engineers, artisans and technicians. But all India has is this submarine project staffed by robots...
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  #13  
Old 05-06-2013, 05:39 AM
truthSeeker2 truthSeeker2 is offline
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
If only there was some sort of long-term, high-tech project that would require the skills of, and hence employ, a whole bunch of middle-class scientists, engineers, artisans and technicians. But all India has is this submarine project staffed by robots...
right. job creation is crucial.

But if you ask me, India should hand over something like $20 per poor person per month for over 15 years old people through the aadhar system which I described in the earlier post. This will mean around $80-$100 per family per month, enough to pay for food, water, education, digital tv connection, electricity bills, maintaining a cell phone etc if they live in a village or a small town. Currently , India has around 350 million poor many of whom work as unorganized labor, without job security, susceptible to exploitation and often get exploited. Even if 400 million people avail this cash benefit scheme that I propose, it will come to $96 billion a year which will ensure that people have at least the minimal financial security, escape the exploitation and live somewhat fulfilling life.
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  #14  
Old 05-07-2013, 02:40 AM
David H Singanas David H Singanas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph124c View Post
Frankly, a nation with such poverty as India has a big problem building nuclear submarines. Who are they defending against? Yes, I know "the poor will always be with you"-but would it not be better to have the poor of India getting an adequate diet , rather than these overpriced toys?
You are forgetting about a piece of geography called the Indian Ocean.
Who is going to rule the waves of the Indian Ocean? If I were a Bharatia,
I would not want it to be the U.S. or China or even Australia.
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  #15  
Old 05-07-2013, 07:17 AM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
If only there was some sort of long-term, high-tech project that would require the skills of, and hence employ, a whole bunch of middle-class scientists, engineers, artisans and technicians. But all India has is this submarine project staffed by robots...
Fair point - between that and a space program a country can get herself some "tech driver" industrial activity. Besides it's not an absolute either-or proposition, if properly managed you can have some defense/tech build up AND some investment in social development, within your means in both cases of course, that part's a political decision.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 05-07-2013 at 07:18 AM..
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  #16  
Old 05-07-2013, 08:03 AM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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Originally Posted by wheresmymind View Post
India's 2013 budget is about 17 billion rupees, or a little over $300 billion.
I think you mean about 17 trillion, not 17 billion.
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  #17  
Old 05-07-2013, 08:15 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is online now
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Originally Posted by JRDelirious View Post
Fair point - between that and a space program a country can get herself some "tech driver" industrial activity.
India has one of those as well.
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