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  #1  
Old 07-21-2014, 07:35 PM
Revtim Revtim is offline
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Creationist Ken Ham calls to end space program because aliens are going to hell anyway

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/2...o-hell-anyway/
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Creationist Ken Ham has said that the U.S. space program is a waste of money because any alien life that scientists found would be damned to hell.
Harsh.
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  #2  
Old 07-21-2014, 07:53 PM
andros andros is offline
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But...what if we could bring the Gospel to them?
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  #3  
Old 07-21-2014, 07:58 PM
Simplicio Simplicio is online now
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Ken Ham has no honor. He will not go to Sto'Vo'Kor
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  #4  
Old 07-21-2014, 08:09 PM
Chefguy Chefguy is offline
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Gotta be the funniest story I've seen in a long time. Doesn't this fool know that the aliens ARE god?
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  #5  
Old 07-21-2014, 08:10 PM
Sherrerd Sherrerd is offline
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When I first heard about this, I looked in vain for a quotation from Ham in which he actually said "End the space program because aliens are going to Hell anyway," because it would be so cool on a t-shirt with "Creationist Ken Ham" attribution.

But apparently he confined himself to saying things like:

Quote:
You see, the Bible makes it clear that Adamís sin affected the whole universe. This means that any aliens would also be affected by Adamís sin, but because they are not Adamís descendants, they canít have salvation.
...which actually is even more hilarious. (What a rotten piece of Catch-22 luck for the poor aliens!...the sin of some far-off alien has damned them, but because they're not that alien's blood kin, they are unable to receive the benefit that should come from belief in the divinity of another far-off alien!!!)

But that's just not pithy enough for a good t-shirt.
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  #6  
Old 07-21-2014, 08:19 PM
watchwolf49 watchwolf49 is offline
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Aliens would not have partaken in the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil Knowledge. Only Man is so inherently wicked. If we do find intelligent aliens, let's all pray to God they're not hungry:

Oh father, we beseech thee to grant us our prayers,
Grant us our boon and make us taste bad,
And as the mana from heaven may they taste good;
Amen

Last edited by watchwolf49; 07-21-2014 at 08:20 PM..
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  #7  
Old 07-21-2014, 08:21 PM
Mr. Greenjeans Mr. Greenjeans is online now
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Originally Posted by Sherrerd View Post
But that's just not pithy enough for a good t-shirt.
But it is really Stupid.

ETA: Oooops. Wrong thread.

Last edited by Mr. Greenjeans; 07-21-2014 at 08:23 PM..
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  #8  
Old 07-21-2014, 08:22 PM
JackieLikesVariety JackieLikesVariety is offline
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the hell with him!
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  #9  
Old 07-21-2014, 08:55 PM
Eureka Eureka is offline
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I think Ken Ham is a troll. Maybe not on a message board, but I think he's saying wacky stuff to get a reaction. And it's working.
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  #10  
Old 07-21-2014, 09:01 PM
marshmallow marshmallow is offline
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I thought the aliens were the demons. We live on the edge of Hell. But Heaven is Kolob...
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  #11  
Old 07-21-2014, 09:11 PM
Grumman Grumman is online now
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So Ken Ham's argument is that he worships a monster, a tyrant who subjects the maximum possible collective to the maximum possible punishment?
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  #12  
Old 07-21-2014, 09:17 PM
Morgenstern Morgenstern is offline
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Ham probably confused Aliens with Republicans.
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  #13  
Old 07-21-2014, 09:27 PM
Freddy the Pig Freddy the Pig is online now
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Creationists lie, distort, misquote, and take quotes out of context. I expect better from our side. Unfortunately, in this thread, I'm not getting it.

Why are we accepting a blogger's second-hand distortion of what Ham is saying? The Internet wasn't invented last week. Ham posts copious amounts of writing online, and if he's worth mocking, he's worth mocking from the original source.

Here is what Ham says:
Quote:
God created the entire universe. Godís Son Jesus Christ came to Earth as a human being, the ďlast Adam,Ē (I Corinthians 15:45-47) to die for all human beings who, like their real common ancestoróthe first Adamóare sinners. We also know from Godís Word that the whole creation groans with corruption (Romans 8:21-22) under the curse of manís sin. Thus the theological position of extraterrestrial intelligent life would cast aspersions on Godís character, as such beings would be reaping the guilty whirlwind of manís sin without access to the grace of Christ.
Observe first that Ham is not talking about the space program, nor calling to end the space program, but only talking about SETI.

Observe also that he is not saying "who cares if we find intelligent life, because said life would be damned", but that "said life would be damned, and God wouldn't do that, so we are unlikely to find it".

The second version is still plenty mock-worthy. Generation upon generation of human beings, outside of the Middle East and Europe, lived and died "without access to the grace of Christ", which seems to trouble Ham not at all. But it's unthinkable that God would do this to aliens?

But at least, we would be mocking him for what he said, rather than what some blogger said he said and we were too lazy to look up.
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  #14  
Old 07-21-2014, 09:28 PM
eschereal eschereal is offline
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Originally Posted by watchwolf49 View Post
Aliens would not have partaken in the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil Knowledge.
C.S. Lewis wrote that story. In the second book, the protagonist goes to Venus to wrestle with the devil who has shrouded the Earth in silence with his evil, or something like that.

But at least Clive was imaginative about it.
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  #15  
Old 07-21-2014, 09:37 PM
Princhester Princhester is offline
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Do you think Ken is happy? I sometimes wonder if I would be happier if I was a complete fruitloop with a simple and certain outlook on life, without room for self doubt. It would all be so much easier.
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  #16  
Old 07-21-2014, 10:09 PM
Der Trihs Der Trihs is online now
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Originally Posted by marshmallow View Post
I thought the aliens were the demons.
That's what I was taught as a kid. Humans are made in God's image, therefore aliens are not made in God's image and must be demonic in origin. UFOs are real and piloted by demons.
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  #17  
Old 07-21-2014, 10:14 PM
Itself Itself is offline
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Originally Posted by Princhester View Post
Do you think Ken is happy? I sometimes wonder if I would be happier if I was a complete fruitloop with a simple and certain outlook on life, without room for self doubt. It would all be so much easier.
You know, I've honestly wondered the same thing. It must be nice to have a complete set of answers (granted, they're batshit answers) for any issue that comes up, to be utterly convinced of your correctness and immune to any arguments to the contrary, and to be able to summarily dismiss your detractors as evil unbelievers or ignorant tools of a secret athiest secular conspiracy. (Conspiracy theorists must get a similar sense of satisfaction, although they're not as well organized). For that matter, Ham also seems to be quite comfortably financially. He even has a museum teaching people that representatives of all the animals in the world, including dinosaurs, were put on a magic boat about 4500 years ago to save them from a worldwide flood. So he's got that going for him.

Last edited by Itself; 07-21-2014 at 10:15 PM..
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  #18  
Old 07-21-2014, 10:57 PM
simster simster is offline
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it's all that anal probing, isn't it?

Last edited by simster; 07-21-2014 at 10:59 PM..
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  #19  
Old 07-21-2014, 11:04 PM
Rick Kitchen Rick Kitchen is offline
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James Blish wrote a novella, which he expanded into a novel in 1959, called A Case of Conscience. It's about a Jesuit priest who finds an alien race who are perfectly moral, but because they have no concept of a deity, the priest is afraid that they must be damned. It's an excellent read. It won a Hugo award.

It's available at http://worldtracker.org/media/librar...Conscience.pdf
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  #20  
Old 07-21-2014, 11:12 PM
Biotop Biotop is online now
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Isn't there something about this in the Bible in Paul's letter to the Venutians?
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  #21  
Old 07-21-2014, 11:53 PM
cochrane cochrane is offline
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Kirk: "Go to the devil."

Kang: "We have no devil."

Star Trek - "Day of the Dove"
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  #22  
Old 07-22-2014, 12:01 AM
Biotop Biotop is online now
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You cannot serve both God and Moon men.
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  #23  
Old 07-22-2014, 12:11 AM
eschereal eschereal is offline
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Originally Posted by Biotop View Post
You cannot serve both God and Moon men.
No, you can make it work: Godspacho for the soup course, a master for the salad course, another master for the entrťe and Dutch Moon man pie for dessert.

Last edited by eschereal; 07-22-2014 at 12:13 AM..
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  #24  
Old 07-22-2014, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Freddy the Pig View Post
Observe also that he is not saying "who cares if we find intelligent life, because said life would be damned", but that "said life would be damned, and God wouldn't do that, so we are unlikely to find it".
Thanks for pointing this out.

And note that this makes Ham much more brilliant than many Americans: The number of Americans who believe in the garden of Eden story plus the number who believe in UFO's with aliens sum to more than 100% which implies some believe both.
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  #25  
Old 07-22-2014, 12:33 AM
sqweels sqweels is offline
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Maybe there's a planet where aliens worship Jesus' kid sister, the "Daughter of God".
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  #26  
Old 07-22-2014, 01:59 AM
GuanoLad GuanoLad is offline
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He strikes me as the worst kind of Creationist spokesperson - a very very very stupid one.
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  #27  
Old 07-22-2014, 02:44 AM
Askthepizzaguy Askthepizzaguy is offline
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Why, may I ask, does anyone care what Ken Ham thinks?

What's his claim to fame besides being a public idiot? What's he ever done or contributed to society?

He's a creationist and evangelist. The only way people like that make money is to tell other people who are creationists and evangelicals the things they already believe, and then accept money for it.

Why isn't life that easy for me? Why couldn't I run around telling scientists that their methods are valid, and then get paid for it?
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  #28  
Old 07-22-2014, 03:49 AM
Penfeather Penfeather is offline
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Originally Posted by andros View Post
But...what if we could bring the Gospel to them?
It ends badly, at least according to Harry Harrison.
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  #29  
Old 07-22-2014, 03:51 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Is there any theological reason why God couldn't have manifested on multiple worlds? If he came to Earth as Jesus to redeem mankind, why couldn't he have gone to Tau Ceti as Xzznokr to redeem the reptilians?
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  #30  
Old 07-22-2014, 03:58 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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There's also the issue of the Americas.

Assuming you accept the idea that people need to receive Jesus' message in order to be saved from Original Sin, then you have to face the fact that God didn't get the message out to everyone at the same time. People in the Eastern Mediterranean region heard it in the first century. People in the America had to wait almost fifteen centuries before somebody delivered the "good news" to them.

So obviously, God is willing to have his message relayed through human avenues to people that needed saving. And that implies that there may be sentient beings on other worlds who are in need of God's message just as the Americans were. And it's the duty of Christians to deliver that message to them.

A true Christian would be fully supporting SETI and other attempts to contact beings on other worlds in order to get the divine message about Jesus out there to those in need of it.
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  #31  
Old 07-22-2014, 04:35 AM
Locrian Locrian is offline
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Oh, for the love of V-Ger!

Whatever he was TRYING to say, I need to thank this guy for making the buybull phenomenally MORE pointless and proven drivel every time he speaks. Think of it this way: Aliens arrive on our planet, they're sentient, they even speak English, Spanish, Russian, Italian, Farsi, etc. And here comes this Creo-tard with the story of how the creator of the (then) teeny solar system where the sun revolves around us, our planet is 4,000 years old, children had Pterodactlys as pets, etc.

Even though the aliens are fluent in many languages, and might even be as dumb as a Spuds Mackenzie commercial, these extra terrestrials-- and I'm guessing most humans at the time-- would look at Ken Hamm like he's giving free phrenology lessons. Like he's approaching people who just found out they won the lottery with time-sharing pamphlets in Haiti. He continually changes his story to it the god gaps like you would have to to prove Snuffalupagus is real. Hey, I wanted that to happen years ago. But as much as you wish... Ugh.

Last edited by Locrian; 07-22-2014 at 04:37 AM..
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  #32  
Old 07-22-2014, 05:17 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Anyone can demolish a religious argument by denying the underlying premise of the belief. But it's more effective to accept the premise and make the argument that this premise does not lead to the offered conclusion.
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  #33  
Old 07-22-2014, 05:33 AM
Locrian Locrian is offline
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Anyone can demolish a religious argument by denying the underlying premise of the belief. But it's more effective to accept the premise and make the argument that this premise does not lead to the offered conclusion.
Perhaps, but what I was pointing out was that Creationist beliefs are as important as a record club selections of the month if sentient aliens came about. 40 year journey in the desert? What about the 4 1/2 minute journey made by our new sentient Leatherheads? Heck, a religion worshipping new extra terrestrials would be more probable than accepting the premise that STILL doesn't lead to any offered conclusion.
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  #34  
Old 07-22-2014, 05:40 AM
Mijin Mijin is offline
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Let me check I'm fully up-to-speed:

Adam and Eve eating an apple curses all of creation. Being descendants of theirs, we all share in this sin, for some reason (this is really quite inconsistent with everything else the church says about "free will" and culpability, but anyway).
So God has to become human, and take a beat-down which...for some reason erases that sin. But doesn't undo the curse.

So ETs have neither received, nor require, salvation. But because they would have to live in the same dump of a universe as us, gee, that wouldn't be fair. It's only all right for god to be unfair to humans in that way, because we sinned. Although god was supposed to have taken the penance for that. Anyway, in conclusion, ETs necessarily don't exist.
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  #35  
Old 07-22-2014, 05:47 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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nm

Last edited by Mangetout; 07-22-2014 at 05:49 AM.. Reason: duplicate
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  #36  
Old 07-22-2014, 05:48 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Is there any theological reason why God couldn't have manifested on multiple worlds? If he came to Earth as Jesus to redeem mankind, why couldn't he have gone to Tau Ceti as Xzznokr to redeem the reptilians?
Given that God can be three persons in one being (and that defies analysis), I'd say there's no reason why the sacrifice of the Messiah couldn't actually be some universe-wide meta-phenomenon that we only locally perceived in the manifestation of Christ, on Earth. Why not?

I mean, also, why, but why not?
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  #37  
Old 07-22-2014, 07:47 AM
Skywatcher Skywatcher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy the Pig View Post
Ham is not talking about the space program, nor calling to end the space program, but only talking about SETI.
He's not talking about any one thing. Let's go straight to the horse's mouth:
Quote:
I’m shocked at the countless hundreds of millions of dollars that have been spent over the years in the desperate and fruitless search for extraterrestrial life. Even Bill Nye “the Science Guy,” in our recent debate, happily gloated about tax dollars being spent toward this effort. And now, secular scientists are at it again.

Of course, secularists are desperate to find life in outer space, as they believe that would provide evidence that life can evolve in different locations and given the supposed right conditions! The search for extraterrestrial life is really driven by man’s rebellion against God in a desperate attempt to supposedly prove evolution!

A UK news site recently reported, “Aliens are out there. We’ll find a new earth within 20 years.” Recent technologies have developed new space telescopes that will be used to study exoplanets (planets orbiting other stars) with the hope of discovering habitable, earth-like worlds that might contain life—at least that is what they hope for!

You see, according to the secular, evolutionary worldview there must be other habited worlds out there. As the head of NASA, Charles Borden, puts it, “It’s highly improbable in the limitless vastness of the universe that we humans stand alone.” Secularists cannot allow earth to be special or unique—that’s a biblical idea (Isaiah 45:18). If life evolved here, it simply must have evolved elsewhere they believe.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 07-22-2014 at 07:49 AM..
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  #38  
Old 07-22-2014, 08:17 AM
Revtim Revtim is offline
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Originally Posted by Mangetout View Post
Given that God can be three persons in one being (and that defies analysis), I'd say there's no reason why the sacrifice of the Messiah couldn't actually be some universe-wide meta-phenomenon that we only locally perceived in the manifestation of Christ, on Earth. Why not?

I mean, also, why, but why not?
Perhaps the fall of man in the garden of eden was also the fall of all sentient beings in the universe. That's not going to make us popular in the intergalactic community!
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  #39  
Old 07-22-2014, 08:29 AM
Darth Panda Darth Panda is offline
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Originally Posted by Eureka View Post
I think Ken Ham is a troll. Maybe not on a message board, but I think he's saying wacky stuff to get a reaction. And it's working.
Yeah, I just assume he's a Kaufman-esque performance artist. The alternative is too horrible to ponder.
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  #40  
Old 07-22-2014, 09:14 AM
Smeghead Smeghead is offline
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Originally Posted by GuanoLad View Post
He strikes me as the worst kind of Creationist spokesperson - a very very very stupid one.
Sounds to me like an eminently qualified and representative spokesperson for the creationists.
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  #41  
Old 07-22-2014, 09:32 AM
JackieLikesVariety JackieLikesVariety is offline
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Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
Why, may I ask, does anyone care what Ken Ham thinks?

What's his claim to fame besides being a public idiot? What's he ever done or contributed to society?

He's a creationist and evangelist. The only way people like that make money is to tell other people who are creationists and evangelicals the things they already believe, and then accept money for it.

Why isn't life that easy for me? Why couldn't I run around telling scientists that their methods are valid, and then get paid for it?
you could, at least in theory. you choose not to.
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  #42  
Old 07-22-2014, 10:08 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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you could, at least in theory. you choose not to.
Really? There would be a way to make money doing something like this, the same dishonest way Ham does it?
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  #43  
Old 07-22-2014, 10:37 AM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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Originally Posted by Freddy the Pig View Post
Observe also that he is not saying "who cares if we find intelligent life, because said life would be damned", but that "said life would be damned, and God wouldn't do that, so we are unlikely to find it".
Of course intelligent ETs can exist, they just wouldn't have souls. You know, like the Japanese.
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  #44  
Old 07-22-2014, 10:39 AM
PSXer PSXer is offline
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what if God needs a starship?

We need to fund the space program so we can bring Him one
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  #45  
Old 07-22-2014, 11:21 AM
andros andros is offline
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Of course intelligent ETs can exist, they just wouldn't have souls. You know, like the Japanese.
Or gingers.
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  #46  
Old 07-22-2014, 11:52 AM
dougie_monty dougie_monty is offline
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The title of this thread betokens a fantastic line of reasoning, I agree...I think this creationist has stuck his neck out and made an awkward, embarrassing comment on a topic completely irrelevant to the theme of the Bible. And probably only because it's in the public eye, thanks to Star Wars and its ilk.
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  #47  
Old 07-22-2014, 11:53 AM
Revtim Revtim is offline
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It's fun to think about how Ken Ham and his ilk would handle contact with alien life. But what worries me is if the aliens think more like him than us rational people. At best they will try to gently convert us to their Blaherbavergianity or whatever, or at worst treat us like the Ken Hams would treat vermin. Or more likely, some sects of the aliens will treat us one way, and some the other, and all levels in between.
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  #48  
Old 07-22-2014, 12:51 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Who would want all those icky aliens in (Human) Heaven anyway?
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  #49  
Old 07-22-2014, 01:07 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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Originally Posted by Revtim View Post
It's fun to think about how Ken Ham and his ilk would handle contact with alien life. But what worries me is if the aliens think more like him than us rational people. At best they will try to gently convert us to their Blaherbavergianity or whatever, or at worst treat us like the Ken Hams would treat vermin. Or more likely, some sects of the aliens will treat us one way, and some the other, and all levels in between.
IOW, pretty much what the American Indians came in for. But without the contagious diseases. I hope.
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  #50  
Old 07-22-2014, 01:08 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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Who would want all those icky aliens in (Human) Heaven anyway?
Because Allah has promised the faithful 72 virgins each, the supply is limited, and creatures who reproduce by sporulation or fission gotta count, right?
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