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Old 06-04-2001, 07:44 PM
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As North Americans, I believe we live in a Meritocracy, where (in theory) taking advanced training and working hard is rewarded. I also believe that this has developed into a system where "Jobism" (treating people differently and being prejudicial towards them because of their job/career) is widespread. If you work in a service-type industry, you probably know what I'm talking about. You could be in University to get your double doctorate in Molecular Biology and Superstring Theory, but if you're supporting yourself by waiting tables in the summer, that's what people see, and that's how they treat you. Then we have the opposite situation for occupations like doctors, engineers, professors, etc, where people treat people in these occupations better than the average shmoe based solely on their occupations.

I, personally, am a Temporary Office Worker, and I have witnessed this Jobism firsthand. I have met people on the job who assumed I was a regular employee, and treated me with respect and camaraderie, then, when they discovered I am "just a temp", their attitude became much cooler and aloof, as though they were embarrassed to be caught treating a temp like someone much higher-up the office food chain (in their opinion). I've seen it in peoples' eyes, when they have met me, been talking to me, and just kind of switched off when they found out what I do for a living. In my opinion, I am no different than *anybody* working at *any* job in any company, from the cleaners to the president. I am a human being doing a job, regardless of what my duties or job title are; I always expect my treatment to be based on me as a human being, not on what others perceive as appropriate treatment for someone at my level of employment.

So, my questions to the Teeming Millions are; do you agree with my definition of Jobism? Do you agree that it exists in the North American workplace as a type of prejudice? Do you think this is a bad or good thing, if indeed you think it does exist? What are your own experiences with Jobism?
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Old 06-04-2001, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by featherlou
I, personally, am a Temporary Office Worker, and I have witnessed this Jobism firsthand. I have met people on the job who assumed I was a regular employee, and treated me with respect and camaraderie, then, when they discovered I am "just a temp", their attitude became much cooler and aloof, as though they were embarrassed to be caught treating a temp like someone much higher-up the office food chain (in their opinion).
Boy, ain't THAT the truth! I think it's more than just temp-versus-permanent, too. If someone were a manager in one department and I was a lowly serf in another, they'd look down on me, even if I had a few people working under me. Or how about seniority complexes? People who have been at a company for, say, 10 years usually feel superior to those who have just joined, even if the latter has a lot of experience in the industry or (worse) is a manager/director, too.
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Old 06-04-2001, 08:14 PM
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It's called human nature


if you think it is bad in America... it is *much* worse in other countries. Most of the world a guy studying to be a doctor would just not wait tables as something way beneath him since one day he will be a doctor. But I do not think you can expect to be treated the same whether you are at the top or the bottom of the ladder. With respect in both cases yes, but not the same. It's human nature and it is probably in the US where it is less noticeable.
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Old 06-04-2001, 08:31 PM
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Re: It's called human nature


Quote:
Originally posted by sailor
if you think it is bad in America... it is *much* worse in other countries.<snip> But I do not think you can expect to be treated the same whether you are at the top or the bottom of the ladder. With respect in both cases yes, but not the same. It's human nature and it is probably in the US where it is less noticeable.
This is what I'm talking about; I understand that not everyone *will* be treated the same, but it's the lack of respect for the human being that makes it Jobism, in my opinion. (Oh, and I don't buy the argument that it's worse in other countries; just because things are worse somewhere else, doesn't mean that it's good here.)
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Old 06-05-2001, 12:01 AM
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There isn't even a debate here. People judge others by their job all the time. Not only that, in certain jobs people judge others by what school they attended.

People also judge a student waiting tables diferently from an aspiring actor waiting tables or a full time waiter. For the student and the actor, waiting tables is a means to a greater end. But the full time waiter is often viewed as having a lower station in life, even though a good waiter in a fancy restaurant can make as much as most college grads.

There was a lot of "jobism" in my last job. We had an in-house IT staff with 10-15 years of experience. Management wouldn't listen to any of their suggestions, prefering to listen to the hired consultants who were right out og college.
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Old 06-05-2001, 12:03 AM
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Re: It's called human nature


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Originally posted by sailor
if you think it is bad in America... it is *much* worse in other countries. Most of the world a guy studying to be a doctor would just not wait tables as something way beneath him since one day he will be a doctor.
From what I have been able to glean from the net generally and the SDBM specifically, it is much worse in America.

Some of the stories I read about the way service people are treated there I find almost unbelievable.

I know when I was at university here in Australia, I (and my friends) had no major problems working crappy jobs to make ends meet. Of course, there is always the odd moron who thinks he is better than everyone, but I didn't notice most people acting that way.
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Old 06-05-2001, 12:55 AM
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Jobism is the great American dream. Its better than the old American dream, which was to conquer land and destroy the natives.
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Old 06-05-2001, 01:17 AM
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This can be so crappy. The "arrogance of academics" thread in the BBQ Pit kind of overlaps this topic a bit, I think.

I told a story on that thread about how I was treated with some snobbery by a co-worker, because she had an Art degree, and I didn't. (Even though I was the one in the somewhat prestigious group art show, and she, as far as I know, was doing diddley with her art.)

At this same job, some other co-workers had a really crappy and condescending attitude towards me at one point. Basically, even though I was actively working on my pottery (and getting in galleries, art shows, awards, etc.) because I was working in a dead end job, I was worthy of scorn, and given the indication that I was a loser. These co-workers were young, living at home, attending the local community college, and figured that their "prospects" were far brighter than my own. (I was out of college and older than any of them.) It didn't matter that I was a good employee, reasonably bright (I was always using words that they didn't understand) and was doing OK with my pottery goals. (I even had my picture in the local paper, taken from one of the shows I was in.) But this meant NOTHING - I was still treated like a loser because I was making ends meet at this dead-end job, and I was older then they were.

Yeah, yeah, I'm full of little antecdotes these days. I just thought it was a fitting tale.
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Old 06-05-2001, 01:41 AM
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It reminds me of the Saturdy Night Live sketch with Will Ferrell; "I have an upper-level management position!!!
I drive a Mercury Sable!!!"
"
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Old 06-05-2001, 02:02 AM
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So are we talking about people with better jobs than other people but aren't as merited? Well, i know all about that. So does my mom.

She got a job at a company. She went to Berkley University. She was supposed to be an engineer, but she was a technician. But what ticked her off was the fact that a lady above her, a much younger and stupider woman, was an Engineer. My mom pointed out and corrected every mistake she made. Luckily, though, my mom is now an engineer. She just recently invented a machine to help obese people.

And me, well, i work my ass off and get treated like shit at a food resturant for 6.75 and hour. My friends are working at a country club, doing much less than i do, and get paid like 12 dollars an hour. There is something wrong here, oh yeah, that should be my job!! Either that or i should get more money for my job.

The thing is, this country is really screwed up. Any business man is insanely greedy, and does whatever he can to make the most money. This includes screwing the people under him.

Thank god for karma.
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Old 06-05-2001, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ssj_man2k
And me, well, i work my ass off and get treated like shit at a food resturant for 6.75 and hour. My friends are working at a country club, doing much less than i do, and get paid like 12 dollars an hour. There is something wrong here, oh yeah, that should be my job!! Either that or i should get more money for my job.
There is nothing wrong as far as I can see. Just because the country club pays more does not entitle you to more pay the restaurant. Different jobs pay different salaries and have different qualifications to obtain them. In some cases the same job in different companies can have vastly different compensations; even within the same company the same job can start a person at different salaries. I know it happened to me before on a few occasions. I have been given the lower salary than the rest at one job, but a higher salary than the rest at another job. It is neither a fair nor unfair system, it is just the system as it is.

Whiners who constantly complain about not being paid enough are probably paid more than they’re worth, IMHO. Maybe if you have job skills that the county club needs they’ll hire you, but theyrel under no obligation to hire you because you want more money.

Quote:
Originally posted by ssj_man2k
The thing is, this country is really screwed up. Any business man is insanely greedy, and does whatever he can to make the most money. This includes screwing the people under him.

Thank god for karma.
So is the insanely greedy business man to blame for your money woes? By asking for more money for your job you seem just as insanely greedy too. The only difference that I can see is that the business man does whatever can to make the most money, but you say you should be paid more and imply it should be for doing much less.

Karma would be you, in fifteen to twenty years, as a conservative Republican business man hiring the help at for your business at low salaries and taking your family to Europe with the profits
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Old 06-05-2001, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by msmith537
There isn't even a debate here. People judge others by their job all the time. Not only that, in certain jobs people judge others by what school they attended.
Following up on that, there is a definite tendency, particularly among white-collar types, to self-identify and get a sense of worth from one's job.

I remember a fascinating study I read about ten years ago on this issue. One bit that stuck in my mind was, if you ask a white-collar and blue-collar worker what they did, you got revealingly different answers:

b-c: "I work at the factory."
w-c: "I am an accountant."

Sua
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Old 06-05-2001, 10:20 AM
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I would like to clarify a point here; the jobism I'm describing is not about pay or duties; it is about people treating other people with less respect in their attitudes and actions based on the job that person is doing. It is about people in "inferior" positions being made to feel like they are not as worthy as human beings as their "superiors".
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Old 06-05-2001, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
So, my questions to the Teeming Millions are; do you agree with my definition of Jobism? Do you agree that it exists in the North American workplace as a type of prejudice? Do you think this is a bad or good thing, if indeed you think it does exist? What are your own experiences with Jobism?
Seeing it in action in my li'l peer group. Buncha folx, all one year out of college. Generally, I get the vibe that the folx who are pursuing their master's degrees are a tier above those of us who hold jobs. Those of us who hold office jobs tend to find the teachers a wee bit comical.

Where I see it the most, however, is between the three of us who work all at the same university (albeit in different departments, jobs, etc.). In order, Person A has a contract job that has led into a permanent position; Person B has a contract job; Person C is a freelancer working with the univeristy.

As Person C, I get wore down by hearing all about the others' "management codes" and where that puts them on the hierarchy in their offices. Last week's pet peeve was Person A holding the permanent position over Person B's head. It's like we're all so fresh and new that we need every stinkin' little thing to show each other up.

I guess idealistic-moi didn't expect this much competition between three friends.
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Old 06-05-2001, 10:51 AM
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Featherlou: you are completely justified in your belief in "jobism". I've seen it firsthand (I'm currently going through it).
In smaller companies, this is especially the case. In the company I work for, the boss treats all us recent grads like garbage-cheap labor, just to pad her incredibly bloated ego. She'll go out with her contempories at the most posh restaurants in town for 2 1/2 hours, drop $30 for lunch, and come back to the office to see us warming up Ramen noodles, or 40-cent burritos.

We hate her for it, but that is the order of things, isn't it? All we ask for is a little respect, and a little more money. I suppose if I was in her position, I would do the same thing, though. It's easy to say you wouldn't, until you are there. She can get away with it, because she can get away with it. Look, everyone's a hypocrite... that's human nature. The hardest thing in the world is truly seeing things from a different (or opposing) point of view.
Featherlou, in no way am I saying it's right or fair, but since when has the world been fair?

Like on game shows, the first question the host asks is "So what do you do?" It's so fundamental to the worth we assign ourselves and each other for some reason. I don't like to define my life around my job; I like to think that my job is an aspect of my life ---> Period. But for others, their job does define their existence.

Just keep on keepin' on, do what you do. As long as you can live with yourself, and continue to work toward your goals, then screw them and keep your eyes on the prize.
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Old 06-05-2001, 11:41 AM
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Regarding the temp thing, while it might not apply in your case, I can understand how, in some circumstances, there might be an attitudinal change when someone discovers, quite suddenly, that you won't be around very long. I might have one social interaction with Peter, reasoning that Peter and I face a reasonably long future together of shared experience and common references, while I might have a very different social interaction with Paul, reasoning that Paul will be gone from my life in a week or two, so we'd better stick to things that don't include making a friend whose exit I soon will mourn.

That is not to say that I look up to Peter and down to Paul, but merely that I look forward to Peter and can't to Paul.
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Old 06-05-2001, 06:26 PM
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when they discovered I am "just a temp", their attitude became much cooler and aloof, as though they were embarrassed to be caught treating a temp like someone much higher-up the office food chain (in their opinion).
Not knowing anything about the specific situation, I obviously can't apply it. But there is a unique situation dealing with temps. Whether or not right or wrong, much of office camraderie revolves around bitching about the company and management, And until someone proves they can be trusted, it's an unspoken rule that you stop talking when the temp walks by. Once someone has accepted a permanant position they have commited to being in the boat with you long term, and can be trusted to know about the boss's 4 hour lunches. Someone who only has a 2 month commitment just isn't part of the gang. I know it sucks, I was a temp for a long time, but as a permanent employee now its not worth it to assume that the new temp won't tell the boss what we said in an effort to suck up.

In most fields 30 years ago moving from managed to manager was one of the only ways to get more pay and respect. In a tech company the whole pecking order is really screwed up. A first year employee who happened to get the right skill might make more money, and have more influence on the big bosses than his manager who has been there 10 years. Most people I work with would rather be shot than become a manager. So the whole 'I'm better than you cause I got this position' thing is pretty irrelevant.
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Old 06-05-2001, 06:56 PM
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Yes indeed I see Jobism as form of bigotry...Hell I'm guilty of it myself...

I have made it a point to see how long I can go before asking someone what they do...It is amazing how much this strips away from a person and you see the real them...

When someone asks me I usualy reply like a smart ass with a line stolen from the great comedian Tim Wilson...

It goes like this...

"So B, what do you do for a living?"

"Me? Cult leader." said absolutely straight faced.

<wierd look>

Shoulder shrug "Hell, it's like anything else. Can't find good help these days." then I grin and don't ask back nor answer

Then I think...there is a materialistic job biggot LOL
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Old 06-06-2001, 12:46 AM
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The thing is, i have the qualifications, probably even more qualifications than they do. The only reason they get the job is because my friend's mom has connections.

And the only reason i want more money is because i NEED it. My mom can't even pay the rent right now, even if i did give her my pay check. Both of my friend's who have the better job don't even need it. They have no money woes.

The thing is, i find that it is hard for money to corrupt me. I'll never be a republican, and i'll never give people crappy salaries if they work under me. I doubt anyone will very work under me. And also, i don't plan on starting a family. And because i'm smart, my plan will follow through.
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Old 06-06-2001, 12:58 AM
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I'll never be a republican, and i'll never give people crappy salaries if they work under me. I doubt anyone will very work under me. And also, i don't plan on starting a family. And because i'm smart, my plan will follow through.
::cluck cluck cluck:: Oh my dear, dear, boy. You really don't have any idea what kind of people visit and post on this message board, do you? (Sigh.) You will learn, you will learn.

And, I have to say, I am glad you informed us that you were smart. Because we sure never would have known, judging from what you've written here.
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Old 06-06-2001, 06:42 AM
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Originally posted by ssj_man2k
And the only reason i want more money is because i NEED it. My mom can't even pay the rent right now, even if i did give her my pay check. Both of my friend's who have the better job don't even need it. They have no money woes.
Well, the reason I want to money is because I NEED it too. True, I need it for different things than you, but my need is still there. I’ve worked myself into a position at my job were, as a colleague so delicately phrased it “you’ve got the boss by the short hairs,” and I can talk now about how much more it is going to cost him to keep me from going elsewhere. If you were to work hard, become indispensable, the money will come.

Quote:
The thing is, i find that it is hard for money to corrupt me. I'll never be a republican, and i'll never give people crappy salaries if they work under me. I doubt anyone will very work under me. And also, i don't plan on starting a family. And because i'm smart, my plan will follow through.
LOL. Hell, when I was eighteen I voted for Mondale. If I can live that foible down, I’m sure you can live the above statement down.
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Old 06-06-2001, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by wolfman
Quote:
when they discovered I am "just a temp", their attitude became much cooler and aloof, as though they were embarrassed to be caught treating a temp like someone much higher-up the office food chain (in their opinion).
Not knowing anything about the specific situation, I obviously can't apply it. But there is a unique situation dealing with temps. Whether or not right or wrong, much of office camraderie revolves around bitching about the company and management, And until someone proves they can be trusted, it's an unspoken rule that you stop talking when the temp walks by. <snip>
I agree that temps in the workplace are treated differently, and rightly so. I know that I'm not a permanent employee, and I'm fine with that. I do expect to be treated with respect in every job I do, however, and have been quite disappointed at some companies. At the assignment I'm currently at, I call myself "The Office Furniture", because I'm moved around, have my job duties changed, and assigned any duty anyone else doesn't want to do - which is fine, but as a deference to my humanity, I would like to be *told* about all the decisions other people are making about my work life (consulted would be even better, but I'm a realist). You tell humans when you're changing their job; you don't tell office furniture.
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Old 06-06-2001, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ssj_man2k
The thing is, this country is really screwed up. Any business man is insanely greedy, and does whatever he can to make the most money. This includes screwing the people under him.

Thank god for karma. [/B]

Why is that screwed up? You don't owe those people anything. And greed isn't just limited to the US. Do you think people are that diferent in other countries?

To some people, it may seem like I have it all. A good high paying job. A nice appartment. Lots of friends. But I'd give it all up in a second for just a little more.


Quote:
From ssj_man2k
The thing is, i find that it is hard for money to corrupt me. I'll never be a republican, and i'll never give people crappy salaries if they work under me. I doubt anyone will very work under me.
So what's a crappy salary? Are you going to pay your entire staff $100,000 a year? You won't be in business very long.


I'll admit that I totally give in to jobism. When I hear someone works at a Burger King drive in window, I think less of them than I do someone who works as a banker or lawyer. Why is that? Because a banker or a lawyer has to have the discipline and ability to pursue an advanced degree compared to the sub high school requirement of the McDs employee. Lawyers and bankers also work a lot harder than fast food guys. When was the last time a burger flipper worked a 100 hr work week?

So, to some extend, your job defines who you are and what you're about. But there is something that everyone has in common, regardless of their job:

1) The boss is a moron
2) The coworkers are incompetent
3) You are overworked, underpaid, and underappreciated
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Old 06-06-2001, 11:57 PM
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Lawyers and bankers also work a lot harder than fast food guys. When was the last time a burger flipper worked a 100 hr work week?
Sure, there's a difference between a burger flipper and a doctor or lawyer. But many a time I've walked in to a fast food place and seen the people just hustle their butts. "Man!" I've thought, "These people work hard!" I know it all depends on the fast food employee, because some suck, and some don't. (Same could be said for a doctor or lawyer, for that matter.) But some dead-end jobs are HARD work. It's a different kind of hard, that's all. And, I might add, some dead-end jobs require lots of overtime. My last job had months of mandatory 60 hour weeks. And it was all extremely stressful, and (in my case) required a particular skill and talent that a lot of people don't have, degree or not. (I worked in a photo lab, doing very detailed photo retouching. I can think of at least one person with an art degree that got turned away from my job, because they weren't good enough to do it.) And while we're on the subject of degrees, please refer to the "arrogance of academics thread that I cited in an earlier post here.

Oh yeah, and then there's my current dead-end job. I work with mentally retarded people. I take care of their basic needs, look after them, etc. Some of it isn't pretty, some of it is rather, well, basic, if you get my drift. I frickin' guarantee you that some of you wouldn't have the guts to do it, or rather, would never wish to develop the stomach or personality to do it. But someone has to, right? The fact that the job is dead-end and requires only a high school diploma doesn't make it any less difficult. And I also guarantee you, if someone you cared about was mentally retarded, you would value what people like me do. Well, at least I hope you would. I would hope you'd see past the fact that it is a dead-end job that doesn't require an advanced degree, and not look down your nose at the likes of me.
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Old 06-07-2001, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by msmith537
<snip>
I'll admit that I totally give in to jobism. When I hear someone works at a Burger King drive in window, I think less of them than I do someone who works as a banker or lawyer. Why is that? Because a banker or a lawyer has to have the discipline and ability to pursue an advanced degree compared to the sub high school requirement of the McDs employee. Lawyers and bankers also work a lot harder than fast food guys. When was the last time a burger flipper worked a 100 hr work week?

So, to some extend, your job defines who you are and what you're about. <snip>
I knew that this argument would enter into the discussion sooner or later. The thing about jobism is that you *don't know* the circumstances that have led people to the jobs they are doing, so treating them differently (read "worse")based on their job just doesn't make sense. I would put my discipline and ability to pursue an advanced degree up against *anyone's*; I have 5 years of post-secondary education, and I get up each day and show up for work on time at a job that I passionately hate - that's discipline. My circumstances in life have led me to be where I am now; I wasn't always here, and I won't always be here, but I'm here now, and I still deserve the same respect that any lawyer or banker deserves.
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Old 06-07-2001, 01:15 PM
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the world is full of fools


Jobism is real and is stupid.

I am as guilty as the next person BUT you should treat people by 'how they are' and not 'what they do'.

Its like treating people because of their appearance, we all do it, because its a shorthand way of feeling that we 'understand where this person is coming from'.

good responses to 'what do you do' question...

'about what ?'


'what i want mainly '


country club vs fast food job - try get the easy job !

life is not fair

BUT luck evens itself out, if you are having a hard time now then you could get your luck later in life and vice versa they will get the bad luck...
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Old 06-07-2001, 01:20 PM
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why ?


Quote:
I have 5 years of post-secondary education, and I get up each day and show up for work on time at a job that I passionately hate - that's discipline.
[/B]
Why ?

Jobism,,mmm,, its about judging someone because of there wealth, perhaps if people pursued happiness instead of money.


sigh
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Old 06-07-2001, 09:41 PM
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Re: why ?


Quote:
Originally posted by dude
Quote:
I have 5 years of post-secondary education, and I get up each day and show up for work on time at a job that I passionately hate - that's discipline.
Why ?

Jobism,,mmm,, its about judging someone because of there wealth, perhaps if people pursued happiness instead of money.


sigh

[/B]
Hey dude; could you clarify your question, if you are asking me a question based on my earlier post? Thanks.
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Old 06-08-2001, 02:10 AM
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why


Why after all that education do you do a job you hate ?
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Old 06-08-2001, 09:26 AM
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Jeez, Dude, you're asking a hard question. In my earlier years, I flitted from one interest to the next (started a degree in Biology/English, went on to become a Medical Lab Tech, became an accredited business machine repair tech, then went to school to become a professional secretary), without finding my one, true career. I've been working as a temp for 5 years now, because temping was supposed to be just a step on my career ladder. Because I'm apparently more mature now, I don't just drop things and pick up new ones like I used to, so I'm trying to figure out what my next career move will be before I get out of temping. That's where my difficulty is coming in; I want to move out of temping, but I don't know what I want to move into. It's also not helping that I have different attitudes and responsibilities than I had when I was a young adult, and that continuing education courses are about %300 more expensive than they were 10 years ago.
  #31  
Old 06-08-2001, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by featherlou
I knew that this argument would enter into the discussion sooner or later. The thing about jobism is that you *don't know* the circumstances that have led people to the jobs they are doing, so treating them differently (read "worse")based on their job just doesn't make sense. I would put my discipline and ability to pursue an advanced degree up against *anyone's*; I have 5 years of post-secondary education, and I get up each day and show up for work on time at a job that I passionately hate - that's discipline. My circumstances in life have led me to be where I am now; I wasn't always here, and I won't always be here, but I'm here now, and I still deserve the same respect that any lawyer or banker deserves.
[/B]
What do you want? A medal for showing up to work? That's the LEAST that is expected of you in order to keep your job. Complaining about circumstances is just an excuse. Most peoples career lasts until they are 65. If you can't work your way up from burger flipper in 65 years, what does that say about a person?

All people should be treated with respect and we should all avoid stereotyping. However, regardless of how much money you make, the career path you choose says a lot about you as a person. A fireman, teacher, lawyer, and doctor are all very different professions. Each has advantages and disadvantages in terms of money, free time, and excitement.

But, I'll be the first to admit that I'm jobist. I tend to date girls who are professional (as in lawyers or financial analysts, not as in protitutes) because I like smart women. I've dated dumb women in the past and I find them totally uninteresting. Most of my friends are also professional. Partly, because I met them at work or college. Also, because I don't have much in common with someone who drives a truck or lays roof shingles. I have nothing against those people, but my friends and I like to do things that cost money. Someone who doesn't make as much would feel left out since they couldn't afford the $20 cover or $8 drinks at the clubs we go to. Not to mention they probably don't want to blow a lot of money on the $60 dress shirts and pants that you need to get past the bouncers.

And 'dude', if you wait for luck or life to even out, you'll be waiting a long time. I like to feel that I'm in control of my own destiny. If I'm not in control, I like to at least have an active role. People who get ahead do so because of ability and desire. If you are content with an average job, that's fine, but don't think that most people who are successful just get that way because of luck.
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Old 06-08-2001, 01:05 PM
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msmith537, I responded to your post above as well - I am curious - would you look down your nose at the likes of me? I mean, I have a totally dead-end job, taking care of mentally retarded people. What does that "say" about me, in your esteemed opinion?

Quote:
Originally posted by msmith537




But, I'll be the first to admit that I'm jobist.
Glad you admit it.

Quote:
I've dated dumb women in the past and I find them totally uninteresting.
Well, sure, dumb is less interesting than smart. But what does that have to do with what kind of JOB a person has?

My dad was not DUMB, even though he worked for the post office. He didn't go to college because he had bad eyes, and he was pressured to not go to college (he could have used the GI Bill) for fear he'd stress out his eyes. (Or "eye" - but that's a long story.) That's HIS life story. Maybe he made the wrong choice, but it's water under the bridge. But even though he didn't go to college, he didn't turn off his brain. He just filled his library with books on history, biology, astronomy, and was rather an expert on Classical Music. He held his own in many a conversation with far more formally educated people. Would someone like my dad be "interesting" enough for you? Or would the fact that he worked for the lowly Post Office automatically make you decide that he must be "dumb", or someone not worthy of as much regard or respect as a doctor or lawyer?


Quote:
Also, because I don't have much in common with someone who drives a truck or lays roof shingles. I have nothing against those people, but my friends and I like to do things that cost money. Someone who doesn't make as much would feel left out since they couldn't afford the $20 cover or $8 drinks at the clubs we go to. Not to mention they probably don't want to blow a lot of money on the $60 dress shirts and pants that you need to get past the bouncers.
You mistake intelligence with extravagance. Or rather, with different priorities. One of my sisters has a very nice college degree, is a "professional" who makes plenty of money. Trust me - she would NEVER waste her money on such things. She'd rather attend a nice Beethoven concert at the Hollywood Bowl than get drinks at a club. It's not about money, (well, not primarily) and it's not about intelligence or education. It's about priorities, and personal tastes.

What you are talking about is a lifestyle - where you want to spend money on expensive clothes, and use your free time hanging out in clubs. Hey - nothing wrong with that. My sisters and I like nice clothes too. Difference is, we enjoy making them. We can appreciate the good cut of a garment as well as the next person, but since we sew ourselves, it comes from a different perspective. Not everyone derives satisfaction out of making things by hand, but we do. And no, we don't spend our free time in clubs. Not interested. But we'll attend a nice concert, or go to a art show opening. But does that make the likes of us "less intelligent" or "less educated" than you and your gang, or does it just make us DIFFERENT?

Would you be able to guess all these things about me (or my entire family) just with the information that my dad worked in a Post Office, I work with retarded people? Would you be able to guess from my job alone that I am a relatively decent potter who has been in many galleries and art shows? Some "starving artists" take dead-end jobs while they pursue their art on the side, you know. But you'd never know that, by just judging a person by their job

As a personal aside - I admit to my own prejudices in this matter. I feel sorry (I guess that's the word) for someone whose priorities involve spending money at clubs, and getting expensive clothes. Is that IT for you? Don't you do anything creative? Do you play a musical instrument? Do you paint? Anything? And if you do, why don't you talk about that with pride here, instead of telling us how much your frickin' dress shirt costs? Yeah, I admit, I carry a bias against that.
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Old 06-08-2001, 03:53 PM
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And while I'm in my little rant mode - I have another question for msmith. I remember reading an article about a very (very) accomplished artist. He was on the cover of the magazine, as a matter of fact. His understanding of color was just amazing, and his oil painting technique was gorgeous. His work was in art galleries, and obviously quite accomplished as an artist.

The thing was, he told in the magazine interview, he worked contruction half of the year. He said it paid well. He'd work half a year, save up his money, and then paint the rest of the year. Now, I assume that the way things were going for him that eventually he'd be able to make more money with painting, and then he'd have to spend less time with construction. But at the time the article was written (several years ago) that was his way of life.

So - because this guy worked (gasp!) construction - what does that "say" about him? If you met him while he was doing construction, you'd never know that he spent the rest of his year painting fabulous paintings, that were admired by many and were in prestigious art galleries. Would the fact that he was an accomplished artist be "enough" dedication and hard work for you? Or is he merely defined by his construction job?

It's probably very true, that a guy like that wouldn't have a "lot in common" with you. But frankly, between the two of you, I think he sounds far more interesting. He's busy being an artist, creating beautiful things, and making a living in an unorthadox way.

Do you have beautiful paintings (or pottery, or sculpture) in your home? What kind of people do you think make these beautiful things? Would you consider them worthy of respect? Would you consider them "interesting" enough for you?

Yeah, yeah, I know I'm long-winded. Some things just get my craw, you know?
  #34  
Old 06-10-2001, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by featherlou
<snip> I would put my discipline and ability to pursue an
advanced degree up against *anyone's*; I have 5 years of post-secondary education, and I get up each day
and show up for work on time at a job that I passionately hate - that's discipline. My circumstances in life
have led me to be where I am now; I wasn't always here, and I won't always be here, but I'm here now, and I
still deserve the same respect that any lawyer or banker deserves.
Quote:
Originally posted by msmith537
What do you want? A medal for showing up to work? That's the LEAST that is expected of you in order to keep your job. Complaining about circumstances is just an excuse. Most peoples career lasts until they are 65. If you can't work your way up from burger flipper in 65 years, what does that say about a person?
No, I'm not looking for sympathy or a medal; just hoping to open your mind a little bit to the possibility that the world isn't as black and white as you seem to think it is.

Quote:
All people should be treated with respect and we should all avoid stereotyping. However, regardless of how much money you make, the career path you choose says a lot about you as a person. A fireman, teacher, lawyer, and doctor are all very different professions. Each has advantages and disadvantages in terms of money, free time, and excitement.
I agree; it is important, however, to still consider that people are a lot more than the job they are doing.

Quote:
But, I'll be the first to admit that I'm jobist. I tend to date girls who are professional (as in lawyers or financial analysts, not as in protitutes) because I like smart women. I've dated dumb women in the past and I find them totally uninteresting. Most of my friends are also professional. Partly, because I met them at work or college. Also, because I don't have much in common with someone who drives a truck or lays roof shingles. I have nothing against those people, but my friends and I like to do things that cost money. Someone who doesn't make as much would feel left out since they couldn't afford the $20 cover or $8 drinks at the clubs we go to. Not to mention they probably don't want to blow a lot of money on the $60 dress shirts and pants that you need to get past the bouncers.
I agree with yosemitebabe here; this seems to be more of a lifestyle choice than a jobist choice. Would you go out clubbing with a smart receptionist who makes a ton of money and dresses very expensively and likes to do the same things that you do? If the one fly in the ointment is the job someone is doing, yeah, that's a jobist attitude.

Quote:
And 'dude', if you wait for luck or life to even out, you'll be waiting a long time. I like to feel that I'm in control of my own destiny. If I'm not in control, I like to at least have an active role. People who get ahead do so because of ability and desire. If you are content with an average job, that's fine, but don't think that most people who are successful just get that way because of luck.
Back to the definition of "jobist" - prejudice towards other people based on the job they are doing. It has nothing to do with successful/not successful. Every person defines their own success; I have my own definition of success, and it doesn't include a scramble up the corporate ladder. I don't want other people to make value judgements about me based on that, though. I want to be valued and accepted as the person I am at work, not looked down on because of the job I'm doing.
  #35  
Old 06-10-2001, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by msmith537
But, I'll be the first to admit that I'm jobist. I tend to date girls who are professional (as in lawyers or financial analysts, not as in protitutes) because I like smart women
[/B]
Er, Smith, you like smart women and you're dating LAWYERS?!? Don't mean to be jobist, but they're the biggest idiots around....

Seriously though, it seems a real shame (as Yosemitebabe has already stated) that you're restricting your social contacts based on the price of your pants. In fact, that's gotta be one of the funniest pre-conditions to friendship I've ever heard. Some of the most interesting people you'll ever meet, and the one's that will teach you the most about life, are people who are different from you. My social contacts range from a para-legal to a cook to a person responsible for the University's mainframe to a guy who works construction to a grad student in Art History to a librarian to a etc. etc. etc..... Every one of them is fascinating in their own way and I wouldn't trade knowing them for the world. Sorry you'll miss out on all those interesting people out there because they don't have the right pants on.
  #36  
Old 06-11-2001, 10:52 AM
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Let's see if I can answer some of your questions:


Quote:
Originally posted by yosemitebabe
msmith537, I responded to your post above as well - I am curious - would you look down your nose at the likes of me? I mean, I have a totally dead-end job, taking care of mentally retarded people. What does that "say" about me, in your esteemed opinion?
I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to imply that every job that doesn't have six figure potential is somehow inferior. My point was that peoples careers tend to reflect their interests, goals and abilities. Your particular choice to care for disabled people obviously shows that you have more interest in helping people than making tons of money. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure why you would be so defensive about your career choice.


Quote:
Originally posted by yosemitebabe
Well, sure, dumb is less interesting than smart. But what does that have to do with what kind of JOB a person has?
You don't find too many REALLY dumb engineers, physicists, lawyers or investment bankers. There are some people who, quite frankly, are not that smart and couldn't handle those type of jobs. Kind of how some people are better physically equiped to be firemen or professional wrestlers.


Quote:
Originally posted by yosemitebabe
My dad was not DUMB, even though he worked for the post office. He didn't go to college because he had bad eyes, and he was pressured to not go to college (he could have used the GI Bill) for fear he'd stress out his eyes. (Or "eye" - but that's a long story.) That's HIS life story. Maybe he made the wrong choice, but it's water under the bridge. But even though he didn't go to college, he didn't turn off his brain. He just filled his library with books on history, biology, astronomy, and was rather an expert on Classical Music. He held his own in many a conversation with far more formally educated people. Would someone like my dad be "interesting" enough for you? Or would the fact that he worked for the lowly Post Office automatically make you decide that he must be "dumb", or someone not worthy of as much regard or respect as a doctor or lawyer?

The "eye" story sounds suspect. Your dad qualified for military service but was afraid of stressing out his eyes in college? And staring at postage meters all day isn't stressful on the eyes?

Stupid doesn't work both ways. A smart person can be in a less intelectually challenging job, however a really stupid person would have trouble lasting in a job above his abilities.

Also, just because a person has an interesting job, doesn't make them interesting. I work with plenty of jerks who have the same job I do.


Quote:
Originally posted by yosemitebabe
What you are talking about is a lifestyle - where you want to spend money on expensive clothes, and use your free time hanging out in clubs. Hey - nothing wrong with that. My sisters and I like nice clothes too. Difference is, we enjoy making them.
Often lifestyle is tied to a persons job. Where you live, who your friends are, what hobbies you can afford, where you vacation. These are all things that are tied directly or indirectly to a persons career choice.

It's like lawyers at a firm who are all supposed to join the same country club or six guys from the same company who always golf or bowl together.



Quote:
Originally posted by yosemitebabe
As a personal aside - I admit to my own prejudices in this matter. I feel sorry (I guess that's the word) for someone whose priorities involve spending money at clubs, and getting expensive clothes. Is that IT for you? Don't you do anything creative? Do you play a musical instrument? Do you paint? Anything? And if you do, why don't you talk about that with pride here, instead of telling us how much your frickin' dress shirt costs? Yeah, I admit, I carry a bias against that.
My priority is not to spend money at clubs. My friends and I live in a major city, however, and bars and clubs make a convenient place to meet up socially. We tend to like bars where other professionals meet

Also, for me to do my job effectively, clients need to feel that I'm competent. Part of that, like it or not, is the image I portray. If I show up wearing a home made shirt (which would look like shit if it was made in MY home) instead of some Brooks Brothers geer, my clients wouldn't feel as comfortable.



Quote:
Originally posted by yosemitebabe
[Story about an artist who worked construction]

So - because this guy worked (gasp!) construction - what does that "say" about him? If you met him while he was doing construction, you'd never know that he spent the rest of his year painting fabulous paintings, that were admired by many and were in prestigious art galleries. Would the fact that he was an accomplished artist be "enough" dedication and hard work for you? Or is he merely defined by his construction job?

It's probably very true, that a guy like that wouldn't have a "lot in common" with you. But frankly, between the two of you, I think he sounds far more interesting. He's busy being an artist, creating beautiful things, and making a living in an unorthadox way.

Do you have beautiful paintings (or pottery, or sculpture) in your home? What kind of people do you think make these beautiful things? Would you consider them worthy of respect? Would you consider them "interesting" enough for you?
Actually, I spent a lot of time at construction sites in my first job. My undergrad degree was in Civil Engineering although I don't do that anymore (for a short time I also doubled in Architecture, but I dropped that part of my program). One of the carpenters I worked with was a former VP of an airline who gave up the corporate lifestyle. His carpenter job paid well enough, it allowed him to be outside and be his own boss. (When my new job starts, the only time I'll see outside is during the walk to the subway). Once again, his job choice reflected those things that were important too him.

Right now, I'm not even working. I just finished grad school and decided to take the summer off. It's nice because I've been able to spend some time focusing on things that are actually fun like sketching (I don't have room to paint in my apartment), rollarblading, traveling or just hanging outside in the park doing nothing while everyone is at work. Even better, I have time to do stuff that I would normally never have time for like karate, rock climbing, canoeing, or whatever crosses my mind.

So basically, I'm now the "guy who doesn't workwho goes out all the time".
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Old 06-11-2001, 01:00 PM
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Well, first off, msmith, I have to address my dad's story:
Quote:
The "eye" story sounds suspect. Your dad qualified for military service but was afraid of stressing out his eyes in college? And staring at postage meters all day isn't stressful on the eyes?
Oh, how dare you. You couldn't have asked for more clarification, you just had to say my dad's tale was "suspect"? Well, my dear, it's not.

My dad lost the use of one eye when he was a child. Totally blind in that eye. The other eye was very near-sighted, so he had to wear thick glasses. He served as a WW II prison guard, (he couldn't go overseas.)

He was supporting his widowed mother and two younger sisters. The dad (my grandfather) had died at an extremely young age (I think 41.) My dad became the "man of the house" at a young age, and his mom was worried about that one remaining eye. She urged him not to go to college after the war, because she was worried that the stress of college, plus a full time job would be too much for him. I think she was wrong. We all think she was wrong. But my dad, being 25 or so at the time, and being the "man of the house" (and this was in the late 1940s) must have felt some obligation to his mother. It was a different era back then, and I guess he felt he had to "honor his mother". We all think he made a big mistake, but too late now.

And yes, he was very, very smart. My mom tells stories of how he could converse with people working at museums, and they were astonished by his knowledge. He wasn't well-rounded in every issue, but in the issues he was interested (history, biology) he was pretty damned smart. And his knowledge of Classical music was downright scary. He tormented all of the family with "pop quizzes" like "Name the composer!" "Name the nationality of the composer of this mystery music!" and stuff like that. Man, he was scary. Thousands of records he had. DUMB people rarely are that scary and knowledgable about music, believe me.

Quote:
Your particular choice to care for disabled people obviously shows that you have more interest in helping people than making tons of money. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure why you would be so defensive about your career choice.
Oh, I'm not defensive as a rule. But why should I not assume that you would not look down on my job? It requires little formal education (you only need a high school diploma) and it is dead-end. TOTALLY dead-end. And yet there are people who keep this job for 25 years or more. They needed NO education for it. And hasn't this been one of your main criteria? The level of education a person goes through?

Quote:
You don't find too many REALLY dumb engineers, physicists, lawyers or investment bankers.
Dumb, as in how? High IQ? OK, sure. But I would guess that there are plenty of engineers, lawyers, physicists, etc. who are as boring as a plank, have no common sense, no sense of humor. I mean, I have met people like that. I know that not all smart people are not like that, but trust me, some are. There's more to this equation than DUMB vs. SMART. Two of the dearest people I know are what you might call "dumb" (well, at least not exceedingly smart). They are co-workers at the job I currently have. They are not "college material", but they are so sweet, and funny, have a lot of common sense, and great to be around and talk to. Give me my "dumb" friends any day.

Quote:
Often lifestyle is tied to a persons job. Where you live, who your friends are, what hobbies you can afford, where you vacation. These are all things that are tied directly or indirectly to a persons career choice.
To a certain extent, perhaps. But definitely not always. I have the same "career" (if it can be called that) as my co-workers. But our hobbies, our friends, and where we go on vacation are vastly different. I like to travel far more than most of my co-workers (always to Yosemite, at the very least.) I am into Classical music, pottery, art, web design. None of my co-workers are. No matter what kind of job I'd ever have, I'd ALWAYS travel to Yosemite, and I'd ALWAYS have hobbies that are art and music-related. My one sister, who is the well-paid professional, has markedly simular hobbies and interests. Why, how can that be? She makes tons more money than me, and has a better formal education, a great job! And as we know, "often lifestyle is tied to a person's job"!
Quote:
It's like lawyers at a firm who are all supposed to join the same country club or six guys from the same company who always golf or bowl together.
Doesn't fit me, or my professional sister. We hang out with our co-workers when we can, but we definitely have our own thing. A lot of my friends drink at bars, and gamble at casinos. I'll politely go along with them for a spell, but it is SO totally not my thing. And I'd hazard a guess and say that I would have a hard time dragging any of my co-workers to a Sibelius concert. Just because we have the same jobs, doesn't mean we have much else in common.

Quote:
Also, just because a person has an interesting job, doesn't make them interesting. I work with plenty of jerks who have the same job I do.
Well, duh. What have we been telling you? So why did you write "I tend to date girls who are professional (as in lawyers or financial analysts, not as in protitutes) because I like smart women." Why the mention of how you tend to date girls who are professional, "because you like smart women". Why do you make a point of mentioning that you date professional women? Like they've cornered the market on "interesting? for you? Women in other professions are not "smart"?

Quote:
Part of that, like it or not, is the image I portray. If I show up wearing a home made shirt (which would look like shit if it was made in MY home) instead of some Brooks Brothers geer, my clients wouldn't feel as comfortable.
Fine, each job has its "costume". But what does that have to do with the kinds of friends you make? And if you met a brick layer whose wife made a great dress shirt (it's not hard to get hand-sewn clothes to "pass" - the clothes I make "pass" all the time) would you hang out with them? If they were "interesting" enough? Could they hang out with all the other expensive-shirt buddies of yours?

Quote:
One of the carpenters I worked with was a former VP of an airline who gave up the corporate lifestyle. His carpenter job paid well enough, it allowed him to be outside and be his own boss.
That sounds great. And if you just met him without knowing his past history, you wouldn't know about his VP past, would you. You'd just see him as just another carpenter, and judge him accordingly. So why do you admit that you are a jobist, when so obviously someone's job doesn't even begin to tell the entire story about them?

Quote:
Right now, I'm not even working.
What? Unemployed bum!

Quote:
I just finished grad school and decided to take the summer off. It's nice because I've been able to spend some time focusing on things that are actually fun like sketching (I don't have room to paint in my apartment), rollarblading, traveling or just hanging outside in the park doing nothing while everyone is at work. Even better, I have time to do stuff that I would normally never have time for like karate, rock climbing, canoeing, or whatever crosses my mind.
So - let me ask you. Do any of your expensive-shirt/expensive-club friends share all these interests? Do you hang out with them and sketch with them? Do they all paint, and rollerblade, and canoe? Do you think only professional people have these interests?

To quote your previous post:
Quote:
Most of my friends are also professional. Partly, because I met them at work or college. Also, because I don't have much in common with someone who drives a truck or lays roof shingles. I have nothing against those people, but my friends and I like to do things that cost money. Someone who doesn't make as much would feel left out since they couldn't afford the $20 cover or $8 drinks at the clubs we go to.
I don't get this. You now say that you sketch and paint, canoe, rock climb, etc. And do you really think that there are no truck drivers or shingle layers that would not share these interests? I don't buy it. As I've already (exhaustively) told you, many artists have dead-end day jobs. So, since you like to sketch, don't you have artist friends? And if you have artist friends, wouldn't the odds be decent that at least one of them have an "unorthadox" job? But it sounds like you stick to your "professional" friends, (because, after all, they can afford expensive shirts.)
  #38  
Old 06-11-2001, 01:31 PM
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msmith, thinking about my previous post, I should hasten to add that I think you're probably an OK guy, and I don't want to come down on you too hard. But you sound like you're pretty young, and perhaps you need to expand your horizons a bit? Like, it appeared that you assumed certain things about my dad. Granted, I didn't give a whole lot of information about him the first time, but I was already rambling way too much, so I thought I'd be brief on his story.

You just don't know the whole story with people all the time, (especially on a message board, when you don't know where they come from, or how old they are.) You don't know what their backgrounds are, their hobbies, their interests, and their jobs often don't help a lot in showing the "real" them. People do not fit into neat little cubbyholes.
  #39  
Old 06-13-2001, 12:02 PM
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Here's a good example from an email I just got...


"This function (the Stampede barbecue) is for all regular full-time and part-time Company X employees at $10 each. That does not include contract or temp employees. If you are contract or temp and would like to attend, the full price is $17.95."

Temps all know we are not regular employees, and companies are fully within their rights to pull these kind of stunts, but let me assure you, it makes the temps feel about *this* big when they do this. This kind of thing, coupled with the attitudes on the job and off, have brought me to a place where my self-esteem is starting to suffer. I know that I'm not just my job, and that I need to disregard the put-downs, but as we all know, it is very difficult to ignore repeated negative messages of discrimination.
  #40  
Old 06-13-2001, 04:14 PM
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Featherlou, I think you are more a victim of a negative image of temporary workers than of jobism. Many people see temps as "taking someones position" rather than as filling a position. Often temps are paid a greater salary than a permanent employee in the same position, since the company doesn't have the overhead of insurance and pension to pay. Many can't see this and are resentful that someone (a temp no less) is being paid a greater salary than them.

I worked at accompany that used temps all the time. Not to cut costs, but rather because there were short term needs for very specific knowledge. A niche nicely served by the temp pool.

It's almost impossible not to make comparisons with other people (just to see where you stand). Often the only information you have is what is immediately at hand.

I'm gonna stop now, because I have completely lost my train of thought. Honestly I was going to bring this all together with a couple of very concise sentences. Got to rambling and now nothing.

A question for Yosemitebabe:
Quote:
We all think he made a big mistake, but too late now.
Your father included?
  #41  
Old 06-13-2001, 05:16 PM
yosemite is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hibbins


A question for Yosemitebabe:
We all think he made a big mistake, but too late now.

Your father included?
Since they don't give college degrees to the deceased, yes.

It was a shame. He could have had college paid for by the GI Bill. But, I guess after a certain point, he just didn't see why he should go back to school. He did OK at the Post Office, he was able to support his family well. We had modest needs, and a modest lifestyle. Books and records are far less expensive than expensive clothes, expensive clubs and expensive cars. Books and art and music feed the soul, something he taught us all well.

He had a good life. And he was surrounded by his books and records! And the great annual family vacations, and the wonderful piano he got for my mom ... he did OK.
  #42  
Old 06-13-2001, 06:57 PM
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Re: Here's a good example from an email I just got...


Quote:
Originally posted by featherlou
"This function (the Stampede barbecue) is for all regular full-time and part-time Company X employees at $10 each. That does not include contract or temp employees. If you are contract or temp and would like to attend, the full price is $17.95."
Just FYI, I believe that this "invitation" would be illegal in this country (Australia) as it would be considered workplace discrimination.
  #43  
Old 06-13-2001, 09:18 PM
msmith537 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by yosemitebabe
[msmith, thinking about my previous post, I should hasten to add that I think you're probably an OK guy, and I don't want to come down on you too hard. But you sound like you're pretty young, and perhaps you need to expand your horizons a bit.

First of all, I just want to point out that I don't base a persons value on their resume. However, whatever criteria a person chooses to pick their friends with is their own business. Career choice is just one of many criteria I look at when valuing a persons worth. It's not even the most important one.



----
Re: Temp workers
As someone who's worked as a temp, a consultant, and as a full time employee, I think I've seen this situation from just about every side.

I think people usually never bother to get to know temps because, by their nature, they aren't going to be around long. Kind of like the FNGs (Fucking New Guys) is Nam movies like Platoon. The veterns didn't give a crap about them because they would probably get themselves killed in a few weeks anyway.

Contractors and professional consultants are a different story. These people are usually resented because they come into a company, show a lot of fancy Powerpoint preses (presentations), throw around fancy buzz words (like 'paradigm' or 'best practices') and in generally act like they have some simple fix that will put the company back on track. They tend to be younger, arrogant, enthusiastic about their job, and highly educated (in other words, just like me, except for the enthusiasm part). Id be pissed off too, if I worked a a company for thirty years and dome kid right out of B-school came in and told me how to do my job better.

I don't think this is really jobbism, though. I think jobbism is more like "People in the mail room are stupid. We can't promote Joe out of the mail room because even though he's highly qualified, he works in the mail room".
  #44  
Old 06-13-2001, 10:13 PM
yosemite is offline
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Quote:
First of all, I just want to point out that I don't base a persons value on their resume.
OK, I'll take your word for it. Or, rather, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. But, some of the things you wrote on this thread certainly left a lot of us with the impression that you valued certain job-related aspects about a person. I think it was the statements like "When I hear someone works at a Burger King drive in window, I think less of them than I do someone who works as a banker or lawyer." and "But, I'll be the first to admit that I'm jobist. I tend to date girls who are professional (as in lawyers or financial analysts, not as in protitutes) because I like smart women." Because of what you have written, we have assumed that you judge a person more by their profession. More than many the rest of us do, as a matter of fact. We have merely commented on the words you wrote. If we have been grossly in error in interpreting what you have written (here, in your own words, on this thread) then of course you are free to discuss it in detail. Here, on this thread.

Quote:
However, whatever criteria a person chooses to pick their friends with is their own business.
Certainly. And the best way to not have to be exposed to other people's opinions about your personal preferences is to not post your opinions on a message board. Your own words here have been commented on, that's all. No one is telling you that you must alter the way you choose friends. But we all are generous with offering our opinions on this board, if you hadn't noticed.

Quote:
Career choice is just one of many criteria I look at when valuing a persons worth. It's not even the most important one.
OK, whatever. But since you have freely admitted more than once that you are a "jobist", it appears (judging by your own words) that a person's career choice is rather important to you. More important than it is to some of the rest of us. And so we commented on that. (That's why they call it a MESSAGE BOARD.)
  #45  
Old 06-15-2001, 02:00 AM
msmith537 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by yosemitebabe
OK, whatever. But since you have freely admitted more than once that you are a "jobist", it appears (judging by your own words) that a person's career choice is rather important to you. More important than it is to some of the rest of us. And so we commented on that. (That's why they call it a MESSAGE BOARD.)

You can feel free to comment all you like. I fully admit to being "jobist". I'm sure I'm also "classist", "schoolist", "ageist", and "racist" in the sense that I am more comfortable around people who are just like me.

Like it or not, certain jobs have more prestige than others. This list will differ depending on your personal values and objectives, but here's an example of where I think a number of jobs fall on the prestige spectrum:

High level jobs:
Doctor
Corporate lawyer
Investment banker

Middle level jobs:
Computer programmer
Sales rep
Engineer

Low level jobs:
Factory worker
truck driver

Menial jobs:
Burger king employee
Day laborer


What do I base this on? As you go up the list, a greater commitment is required. You just don't decide to become a doctor or lawyer. You need to study, work hard, make connections and plan. A burger flipper, on the other hand, just needs to apply at the right time.

I see nothing wrong with creating a hierarchy of job classes. In this country (USA), you aren't born into your station. You have the opportunity to go as far as your ambition and ability can take you. Implying that a burger flipper is on the same level as someone who studied for years to become a doctor is absurd.

And I do judge a person by their background. If I meet a 35 yr old operating a cash register at the local Stop & Shop and they have to ask me three times if I want paper or plastic, I think they're a moron.

On the other hand, if I meet someone with an MBA from Harvard, I can reasonably assume that they are intelligent and hard working. That doesn't mean I'll like them, but at least they accomplished something that most people can't.


Another thing. Nothing rubs me the wrong way more than some blue collar worker thumbing their nose at us professional types. You know, the "oh look at the college boy" attitude. Excuse me for wanting more for my family than driving a 10 yr old car, living paycheck to paycheck, and owning some ramshackle house between a railroad track and a ball bearing factory.
  #46  
Old 06-15-2001, 03:05 AM
yosemite is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by msmith537


You can feel free to comment all you like. I fully admit to being "jobist". I'm sure I'm also "classist", "schoolist", "ageist", and "racist" in the sense that I am more comfortable around people who are just like me.
"People like you", huh? Boy, I was right when I said you needed to expand your horizons. The world is FULL of different people, and a lot of them have unique and valuable perspectives. Too bad you are too engrossed in sticking with "people who are just like you".

Quote:
Like it or not, certain jobs have more prestige than others. This list will differ depending on your personal values and objectives, but here's an example of where I think a number of jobs fall on the prestige spectrum:
Oh goody. You've made a list. How charming. You've just thought it all out, haven't you? Good. Grief.

So, I will bring it up again: my job (working with retarded people) requires (to paraphrase you) for the employee to apply at the right time. Seriously. Anyone with a pulse who is willing to take the job is going to get it, just about. (They do have to pass a security check, though.) They don't need to "study, work hard, make connections and plan". So, tell me, Oh Wise One, where exactly on your LIST would my job appear? Please. Enlighten me. I want to know what LEVEL I'm on.



Quote:
What do I base this on? As you go up the list, a greater commitment is required. You just don't decide to become a doctor or lawyer. You need to study, work hard, make connections and plan. A burger flipper, on the other hand, just needs to apply at the right time.
True, working hard and studying hard is something to be respected. But, without knowing the life history of the burger flipper, you DON'T REALLY KNOW much about them. One of the most brilliant artists I met worked at Taco Bell. She was (I think) in her '30s, still at Taco Bell. She drew these amazing fantastical animals. She said she got the ideas for these drawings from the dreams she'd have after eating a spicy Taco! I don't know why she was still working at Taco Bell, but she was. She was also a brilliant artist, and lots of fun to talk to. I'm glad I got to know her.

But oh. I forgot. She was in her 30s, and she was working at a fast food place. So, she's on that lower LEVEL, right?


Quote:
I see nothing wrong with creating a hierarchy of job classes. In this country (USA), you aren't born into your station. You have the opportunity to go as far as your ambition and ability can take you. Implying that a burger flipper is on the same level as someone who studied for years to become a doctor is absurd.
What do you mean by "same level"? NO ONE is on the same level. We are all too complex. The burger flipper could be the most morally pure person, the most generous person around. On THAT level, they would certainly be on a lot higher "level" than your average lawyer, or other professional person who had more shaky moral character. There are a LOT of "levels" out there, bub.

Quote:
And I do judge a person by their background.
If I meet a 35 yr old operating a cash register at the local Stop & Shop and they have to ask me three times if I want paper or plastic, I think they're a moron.
What background? How do you find this out? Do you ask them to tell you their life story? You just MET THEM at the Stop & Shop. What, exactly do you KNOW about their "background", other than the job they are holding at that moment?

As far as why they asked you 3 times for paper or plastic - maybe they have the flu, and are feeling oogy from the flu medication. Maybe they are hard of hearing. Maybe they are writing a Great American Novel at home, and are just tuckered out from staying up all night, writing. YOU DON'T KNOW. Though, I agree, I've met morons in all walks of life. So sure, the 35 year old at the register very well may be a moron. But you can't just discern that from their JOB alone.

Quote:
On the other hand, if I meet someone with an MBA from Harvard, I can reasonably assume that they are intelligent and hard working. That doesn't mean I'll like them, but at least they accomplished something that most people can't.
Sure - this is nice, this is worthy of some respect. Hard work and study is worth of respect - up to a point. But I don't think any human being can expect everyone to automatically put them on a higher "level" forever because of it. What kind of person is this MBA from Harvard? How do they treat their parents? How do they treat their family? Do they have any interesting hobbies? Do they appreciate the arts? It's quite possible that they are a really well-rounded, creative, honorable MBA from Harvard. In which case - wow. Someone who sounds really great, on many LEVELS. Or, they could be a selfish, vain, shallow, dull MBA from Harvard. In which case, who cares how frickin' long they went to school, or how well they did? They sound like an asshole. Smart asshole, stupid asshole = still an asshole. Their level of education (at that point) carries no extra weight for me, at least.


Quote:
Another thing. Nothing rubs me the wrong way more than some blue collar worker thumbing their nose at us professional types. You know, the "oh look at the college boy" attitude. Excuse me for wanting more for my family than driving a 10 yr old car, living paycheck to paycheck, and owning some ramshackle house between a railroad track and a ball bearing factory.
And, by the way, how many blue collar types have you encountered who have a 10 year old car, live paycheck to paycheck, live in a ramshackle house, AND live between a railroad track and a ball bearing factory? Could you fit any more annoying, condescending, snobby cliches in there?

Sure, I occasionally encounter someone who is ignorant, and proud of it. I actually met a woman who seemed PROUD that she'd never left the state of her birth. (I'm really into going on road trips, and like talking about all the places I've seen. Apparently this ticked her off.) Some people are intolerant of anything different than they are. They want to stick with people like themselves, so they look down on anyone who is different. (Oh. Wait. That sounds like...YOU, doesn't it?) So yeah, some blue collar workers will have a bad attitude, and it's just as bad as when the snobby "professionals" do the same thing.

However, I've also met plenty blue collar people who are just SICK of being treated like second class citizens, like they have no brain or feelings because they have a dead-end job. NO ONE LIKES TO BE TREATED WITH CONDESCENSION. I'd hazard a guess and say that many people who make fun of the "college boys" have received some condescending treatment from a smart-ass, snobby jerk who wears their "I'm on a higher LEVEL than YOU" attitude on their sleeve. These snobby types really think that the blue-collar type is too stupid to detect their absolute contempt and condescension. Which is just such amazing arrogance.

Sheesh. And to think - you've even made a list of the "levels" of jobs. See - THAT is the kind of thing that will tick off your Average Joe Sixpack. Some dweeb making lists like that.
  #47  
Old 06-15-2001, 04:10 AM
Tamerlane is offline
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Hmmm...

msmith527: I don't think there is anything wrong with being more comfortable hanging with people who you share common interests. Kind of a no-brainer, really . But I might suggest, as I think yosemitebabe is doing, that your view of the world and people's place in them seems to be excessively 'black and white'.

Me:
age - mid-30's
job - blue-collar ( a trades position essentially, i.e. I am required to be certified by the state )
income - 75-80k/year ( Bay Area dollars, granted, but still reasonable for a single guy ). One of my co-workers will break 100k with overtime this year.
education - No degree, as I never bothered with certain lower division requirements because I wasn't particularly interested. But I was a professional student for 15 years and amassed in the neighborhood of 280-odd semester credits in stuff I was interested in. History and biology, mostly, including several graduate classes. Education was a hobby . Several of my blue-collar co-workers do have degrees ( biochemistry, marine biology, business, etc. ).
friends - Dotcom workers, lawyers, advertising execs, museum curators, seasonally employed field biologists, teachers, graduate students, and yes, blue-collar slobs like myself, just to name a few. Roommate is a compliance officer for the FDA, who is a specialist in the systematic biology of scorpions and solpugids in his spare time. Range of income of friends? Probably 10 -125k a year. Correlation of white-collar, professional jobs to higher income amongst these friends? Uneven, at best.
car - 2000 Maxima SE ( Not the best amongst my co-workers by a long shot. A couple of them drive 7-series BMW's ).

So where does that put me on your spectrum ? Even if I bothered getting one of my degrees, which I could manage easily enough in a semester or two if I were so inclined, I couldn't make more money in any white-collar field I'm qualified for. Even if I got a graduate degree, I couldn't do that. So this association you're making between income and professional jobs doesn't necessarily hold true.

Neither does this association with intelligence and education. You may not have met many stupid engineers, lawyers, MBA's. I have. Sometimes it's the stupidity of overspecialization and "forest, but not the trees" narrowmindedness - Something I think certain professions are more prone to than others. I might mention the engineers that sited all the floor drains in a particular building at the high points in the floor ( almost like it was deliberate - damned if he didn't fuck up every single one ), despite the fact that it was known it would have to be washed down regularly . Sometimes they're just plain dumb - I've known several "professionals" that qualified. A degree is no guarantee of smarts. It just means you figured out a way to negotiate the system.

Not to say all blue-collar workers are brilliant by comparison. Definitely not. But you know what happens when we assume .

And that's the problem, I think, if we want to call it that. You give the impression that you're making the easy assumptions in life. And that's just lazy . Try to make fewer assumptions and evaluate people as individuals. I have a friend ( with two degrees ) that spends several months a year in the field doing biological surveys ( including the supervising of others ). The rest of the year she does service work or whatyever else she can find to make ends meet. Would your view of her change depending on what part of the year you encountered her?

I know you're saying you don't judge folks by their resume. But you seem to be saying that from one corner of your mouth and something else from the other. Unless, I'm just confused. Which I may be. Being a blue-collar drone with a "low-level job" and all .

- Tamerlane
  #48  
Old 06-15-2001, 05:06 AM
yosemite is offline
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Tamerlane - great points you have brought up! And I must add, many of my friends are "professional students". I have WAAAAY too many college credits floating around as well.

I was musing over one of msmith's comments, and wanted to pontificate a little more:
Quote:
On the other hand, if I meet someone with an MBA from Harvard, I can reasonably assume that they are intelligent and hard working. That doesn't mean I'll like them, but at least they accomplished something that most people can't.
So, when someone accomplishes something that "most people can't", that means a lot to you?

Hey. I taught myself calligraphy. It's not an easy thing to learn. (Not all calligraphers get the pen angle right, or have consistent lettering. It takes lots of practice and patience to be decent at it. And bear in mind that I never had really great handwriting before I learned it. So I worked hard to become a decent calligrapher.) I've even done it semi-professionally. I accomplished something that "most people can't". (At least, I don't bump into calligraphers every day.) So - gimme my RESPECT. I am on a higher LEVEL now, OK?

Sheesh. There are many variations of abilities and skills that some folks will accomplish that "most people can't". It just isn't about how great an education you've had. How do you know that the burger flipper hasn't accomplished quite a few admirable things? For all you know, they are a great poet, or have an innate talent for playing the guitar, or are brilliant at math. Maybe they are just the best parent a person ever could hope for, or maybe they are so incredibly kind, that everyone they meet just loves them and feels comfortable around them. Being a really good person, that everyone loves and admires is a quality that "most people can't" do, I've noticed. So why limit your criteria to just education, and job? So why be so quick to judge people before you have their full story?

But oh well, it's so easy to make your little condescending "lists", isn't it? Easier than going out and meeting people that are (God Forbid) different than you. And, as Tamerlane says, lazy as well.
  #49  
Old 06-15-2001, 07:48 AM
msmith537 is offline
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Quote:
True, working hard and studying hard is something to be respected. But, without knowing the life history of the burger flipper, you DON'T REALLY KNOW much about them. One of the most brilliant artists I met worked at Taco Bell. She was (I think) in her '30s, still at Taco Bell.
If she was such a great artist, why didn't she pursue a career based on her talent? It's always better to be paid for what you love doing anyway.

I'm the type of person who looks at results. You either succeed or fail. "Coulda, shoulda, woulda" doesn't cut it. Its like saying "I could have been a great baseball player, but..". But what? You lost your talent or weren't as good as you thought. It could have been an injury or you were sick that day but whatever. The end result is the same.


Quote:
But oh. I forgot. She was in her 30s, and she was working at a fast food place. So, she's on that lower LEVEL, right?
In terms of her job, yes.




Quote:
What do you mean by "same level"? NO ONE is on the same level. We are all too complex. The burger flipper could be the most morally pure person, the most generous person around. On THAT level, they would certainly be on a lot higher "level" than your average lawyer, or other professional person who had more shaky moral character. There are a LOT of "levels" out there, bub.
Now who's being jobist? Are all lawyers shady? I think not. Besides, I'd rather be morally shady and living in a nice appartment downtown than a morally pure pauper.

So you admit that there is a hierarchy? If that's the case then what's wrong with saying some jobs are better than others?

And don't call me "bub".



Quote:
As far as why they asked you 3 times for paper or plastic - maybe they have the flu, and are feeling oogy from the flu medication. Maybe they are hard of hearing. Maybe they are writing a Great American Novel at home, and are just tuckered out from staying up all night, writing. YOU DON'T KNOW.
Nor do I care. You know the saying "excuses are like assholes..."? Where I come from, you do your job right. If you're sick, stay at home and don't touch my friggin groceries! Customers and employers don't want to hear excuses about great american novels or feeling oogy.




Quote:
Hard work and study is worth of respect - up to a point. But I don't think any human being can expect everyone to automatically put them on a higher "level" forever because of it. What kind of person is this MBA from Harvard? How do they treat their parents? How do they treat their family? Do they have any interesting hobbies? Do they appreciate the arts?
Does this matter? Are hobbies or art appreciation somehow better criteria for judging a person? What makes you think your criteria for evaluating a person is better than mine?




Quote:
And, by the way, how many blue collar types have you encountered who have a 10 year old car, live paycheck to paycheck, live in a ramshackle house, AND live between a railroad track and a ball bearing factory? Could you fit any more annoying, condescending, snobby cliches in there?
Plenty and
yes.


Quote:
Sheesh. And to think - you've even made a list of the "levels" of jobs. See - THAT is the kind of thing that will tick off your Average Joe Sixpack. Some dweeb making lists like that.
Why's that? What does anyone care about my oppinion of their job?

I'm not sure what your looking for anyway. For me to suddenly embrace all workers of the world?


Like I said, when I meet someone, I don't really care what they do for a living. I look at their attitude and behavior more than their resume. If they achieved something like a 20th degree blackbelt or they have a really cool and usual job, I might be impressed. If they are an expert in something I don't have an interest in (like caligraphy) thats great, but it doesn't make more more interested in that person.

If a person is intelligent, fun, and basically a good person it doesn't matter to me if they are a plumber or whatever. On the other hand, if they they have a chip on their sholder and can't talk about anything other than "da Sox", how wicked drunk they got last night, or "dose BC/BU/Haavard kids ah all stuck up jerks", I don't want to know them.
  #50  
Old 06-15-2001, 09:21 AM
Cat Whisperer's Avatar
Cat Whisperer is offline
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(Just fuelin' the fire a little...)


Quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlane
Quote:
:
<snip>Would your view of her change depending on what part of the year you encountered her?<snip>
Let's expand on that a bit and ask; "Would your view of people change depending on what part of their lives you're encountering them in?"

msmith, it sounds like you've bought into The Great American Way lock, stock and barrel. You know, the Way were everyone is judged by how much money they make, what kind of car they drive, how big their house is, what neighbourhood it's located in, and *what they do for a living*. For you, if this is how you want to live your life, that's entirely your choice (of course), but have you ever sat down and figured out what is important to *you*? If you have, and you have decided that making money and having nice things is important, go crazy with it. Just make sure that it's *your* dream, not one you inherited from your family or adopted as your own without making a decision about whether you wanted it or not. But don't look down on other people who may have done their own soul-searching and decided that raising a family, or being free to travel, or only working part-time to have more time for hobbies, or whatever is most important to them and have decided to live their lives in the way that makes the most sense to them. Their life choices are as valid as yours, even if their choices aren't endorsed by The Great American Way.
(disclaimer - I am making an assumption about you based on your past posts, here and in other threads. I could be totally out to lunch; it's happened before. I'm also resisting a huge temptation to call you "Bub". )
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