Starting a new thread in the hopes that we can keep discussions of the other issues surrounding the Ferguson case elsewhere. I’d like to limit this discussion to the evidence released by St. Louis County about the incident on Aug 9th between 11:45 and noon.
Up front, I’ll admit that I was surprised by the prosecutor’s announcement; not by the decision necessarily, but by the assertion that all key witnesses, including African American witnesses, gave testimony that supported Darren Wilson. I’d pegged this as a case that would be made on aggregate eyewitness testimony, and from what was publicly reported, it seemed like the witnesses were largely in agreement that Michael Brown was not charging Wilson. And whether or not Brown was charging is the key to justifying the final volley of shots including the fatal head shot.
I’m sure the pundits will be spending the next few days telling their listeners/viewers what they should think about the evidence, but I’m trying to go through it myself. There’s a lot, especially the trial transcripts. I’ll start with the eyewitness statements.
Darren Wilson’s narrative is mostly known at this point, but there’s some additional details. In summary, he was responding to the robbery call when he stopped to tell Brown and Johnson to get out of the street. He backed up (when he saw the cigars, it’s not clear) and told Brown to come to the vehicle. Wilson tried to get out and Brown shut the door with his body. Brown then started swinging and punching Wilson, presumably with his right hand. Brown pauses to hand the cigars to Johnson with his left hand, at which time Wilson grabs his right arm. Brown punches him hard in the face with his left hand. (This punch seems to be supported by the photos that were released).
Wilson runs through his options and decides to draw his gun. He says “I will shoot you” and Brown says that’s he’s too much of a pussy to shoot him. Brown grabs the slide of the gun and pushes it down into Wilson’s thigh. Wilson wrestles the gun up a bit and pulls the trigger. It doesn’t fire, presumably because Brown’s hand is impeding operation of the gun. On the third pull, it fires and shatters the window, startling them both. The struggle seems to be paused but Brown hasn’t moved, so Wilson fires again and thinks he missed. Brown takes off running.
Wilson pursues on foot and tells Brown to stop. Eventually, Brown stops and turns, and starts running with his hand in his waistband (eyeroll). Wilson fires several shots, pauses, and nothing’s changed – Brown is still charging with his hand in his waistband. Wilson fires another volley and Brown goes to the ground.
Witness 10 seems to be one of the contractors working in the area. He’s interviewed 2 days after the shooting and says at the end: “They think the police are bad for 'em up until they’re in need of the police. And, a, I just wanted to come forward and just tell how I seen it. Because I feel like it’s very rare that somebody’s gonna come forward and tell actually what happened.” My impression is that he knows that what he’s saying will probably go against the narrative being spread around the neighborhood but wants to set the record straight.
The witness says that after running from the vehicle, Brown stopped, turned around, and “made some type of movement,” which he best describes as pulling up his pants (by the waistband, one would presume). He says that Brown started charging toward the officer, and never put his hands up. Wilson let off a volley and Brown paused. Then Brown started charging again and Wilson let off the fatal volley.
Witness 10 says that he initially didn’t think that Wilson used appropriate force, that maybe he should have used a taser, but upon further reflection thinks that he made the right call in the heat of the moment.
Witness 12 was a local resident, a younger male from the sound of it. He did 3 interviews, 2 on the day of the shooting and one 4 days later. All of the interviews are confusing and somewhat combative. The interviewer seems more interested in taking a perfunctory statement and not actually interested in what the witness saw.
Witness 12 says that after Brown stopped and turn, he was shot and doubled over, like he was shot in the gut. He was then shot and killed. The interviewer makes the suggestion that he was moving toward Wilson and the witness agrees, but it seemed like he didn’t want to volunteer that information. The interviewer asks if he had his hands up, and the witness suggests that maybe he put his hands up after he was shot the first time, when he was doubled over.
This doesn’t seem like a particularly credible witness, which could be why the interviews were so short.
Witness 14 was interviewed twice, once 3 days after the shooting and then again on Sep 24th. His story doesn’t change between the two interviews.
The witness is hesitant to come forward because he fears that what he says won’t be appreciated by the community. He wants to set the record straight on a few things, which I’ll come back to. He’s a retired old man who has a general disdain for the young people who say stuff like “what’s up o.g.?” like it’s a sign of respect. But he says that Michael Brown was one of the few respectful young people (that he could count on one hand). The fact that his story didn’t change, that he’s reluctant to tell the truth because he fears backlash, and the fact that he respects Michael Brown makes his testimony seem credible.
Witness 14 says that Brown ran, stopped, and turned, looking down at his own hands and body with his hands up (at or just below shoulder level) and his palms facing towards Wilson, as though he was looking at his own wounds. He takes 2-5 steps towards Wilson and is Wilson opens fire. Brown lets out a little wiggle. They both pause, Brown has a wierd look on his face, and moves forward again as if to plea with Wilson to stop shooting him.
The witness is emphatic that Brown was not charging Wilson, and that Wilson did not need to fire the last volley, without which Brown almost certainly (in the witness’ opinion) would have lived. The subtext here is that he thinks Wilson may have been justified in the shooting up until that last volley. I think; he doesn’t come right out and say it but he places a lot of emphasis on how he thinks that last volley was wrong, without saying any other part of the encounter was handled poorly.
The things he wants to set straight seem to be that Wilson fired the first shot INSIDE the car, as opposed to outside that some people might have been saying, and that all of the remaining shots were fired at a distance and not execution style. As a middle-class observer 3 states away, my understanding is that the basic narrative on the ground hasn’t changed much, but apparently there were stories going around the neighborhood that were a lot more damning for Wilson. The prosecutor mentioned some of those stories in his press conference, which is honestly the first time I heard about them.
Witness 16 was interviewed the day of the shooting, but nearest I can tell didn’t actually witness it.
Witness 22 was interviewed the day of the shooting. She says that Brown was kneeling in the street with his hands up, then he grabs at his stomach or waistband and is shot to death by Wilson. She didn’t see the first volley or anything prior to that. She insists that he was kneeling, and she’s not able to explain how she saw him with his hands up and at his stomach other than to say “They were up at first and then at his stomach.” Not worth much.
Witness 25 was interviewed the day of the shooting. She describes Brown as standing still being shot by Wilson. After a pause Wilson continued firing and “the dude just tipped over head first and his head smashed into the pavement.” Not much here.
Witness 30 was sitting in the passenger seat of his wife’s van. A convicted felon who “has no love for the police,” he nevertheless didn’t see anything wrong with what went down. He says Wilson shot Brown once in the back, at which point Brown stopped, turned around, and started walking towards Wilson. He thinks he saw Brown point a gun at Wilson, but then says that as he was walking towards him his hands were at his sides. He insists that Brown did not have his hands up.
And all the way back on August 10th, Kos featured this Youtube video of a witness who claimed Wilson stood over Brown lying in the street, looked him in the eyes, and shot him four times.
So yes, those stories were definitely out there early on.
Witness 14 specifically mentions that he’s heard that the initial altercation was outside of the car, and he wants to clarify that it was not. He also mentions that he’s heard that Wilson walked up to Brown when he was on the ground and shot him.
I don’t have a transcript of the prosecutor’s press conference, but I remember him saying something about “the narrative that day was that Brown was shot dead in the back” or something to that effect.
So far I haven’t found any witnesses going on record saying any of those things, but I trust Witness 14 when he says that these rumors were going around.
I’m asking if this thread is really limited to yesterday’s evidence release, or if other sources and speculation will be brought in. Witness 14 is clearly in that release; the rest seems to be other sources. I like and appreciate the idea of a thread doing all this digging I don’t have time for, so thank you for that.
Weirder and weirder, deeply weird. Previously, I was asking about the threshold for a grand jury to indict, would it be possible for the majority of the members of a grand jury to be in favor of an indictment and no indictment to result.
So, eight of the twelve grand jurors could have been convinced that an indictment was appropriate. and no indictment would have occurred. Did that happen? We don’t know, and will never be permitted to know, such are the peculiarities of the grand jury system.
I’d like to limit the discussion to the actual evidence released yesterday, but I think some speculation is inevitable. I don’t intend to withhold my own opinions about the credibility of the witness statements, for instance. I don’t think we should give equal weight to statements that are obviously bullshit when we’re trying to figure out if the grand jury came to the “right” decision. I brought up the prosecutor’s statements about the rumors of other scenarios because I think that goes towards Witness 14’s state of mind and their credibility. But as I go through more of these witness statements, it’s apparent that I didn’t even need to.
Witness 32 was driving up the street; he was interviewed the day of the shooting. He witnessed the altercation at the police vehicle, and then saw the fatal shots in his rearview mirror. He’s not asked for any additional details, nor does he provide any.
Witness 34 was in his car on the street the day of the shooting. He was interviewed Sep 3rd with an attorney present. Much of the interview surrounds the altercation at the car; he says he saw Brown punching Wilson several times. Eventually he says that Brown was running from Wilson, stops and puts his hand on a car, then starts moving toward Wilson. Wilson opens fire and the witness drives away (fast). The interviewer asks repeatedly how he was moving toward Wilson – walking, skipping, running? The witness says “he wasn’t running.” He says he was walking kinda fast but just walking. He was asked if he had any idea why Brown was walking toward Wilson – just to talk or something? He says that “if I was the officer I would look nervous too, you coming back toward me and you just hit me.” So even though he’s insistent that it wasn’t running, he seems to back up Wilson’s decision to shoot.
Witness 35 is Brown’s best friend (Dorian Johnson’s cousin), who was interviewed 4 days after the shooting with an attorney present. The interview is combative from the start, with the interviewer threatening the witness with jailtime if she lies. She says Brown was executed in the street “like it was nothing.” She says Wilson got out of his car, shot Brown in the head, and then stood over him and shot him 4 times, and then 4 more times that she didn’t witness. She insists that she wouldn’t lie about her best friend, but given how different this testimony is from everything else we’ve heard + the physical evidence, she’s almost certainly lying.
Witness 37 was interviewed on August 18th with the FBI present. He says that Wilson fired “3 or 4 shots” from inside the vehicle, and then Brown ran. Wilson then fired more shots from inside the vehicle, then got out and approached Brown, who stopped and threw up his hands. Wilson then fired 2 or 3 more shots at point blank range, at which point Brown fell face-first to the ground. Wilson then approached Brown, took his time, and fired more shots directly over the body. Again, this just doesn’t jive with the physical evidence.
I don’t know if this is included in the released documents, but I think it is. The autopsy reports “there are seven bullet tracks in the body and an additional track in the right upper chest that is most consistent with being a re-entrance bullet wound continuation of the facial wound.” Does this mean he was shot seven times?
Thanks for taking the time to do this. I haven’t started looking at the actual, official, evidence presented to the grand jury yet so I’ll withhold comment on that but given the other reports, stories, claims, and chants, both pro and con, I believe the grand jury reached the correct finding.
It appears Mr. Brown was a bit more of an optimist than was good for him.
Likewise.
I expect that witnesses whose testimony is contradicted by physical evidence are inherently less believable than others. Does anyone know if the presentation of the physical evidence came first? If it was, then witness 35 and 37 are going to make much less impact than if they testified first, and then were refuted (in that part of their testimony) later.
Witness 38 was interviewed one week after the shooting. They say they don’t know their neighbors and didn’t see much. The witness was taking trash to the dumpster when she saw two guys walking down the street talking to the police. Then they heard 2 shots, look over towards the street and don’t see anyone on the ground – figures they’re warning shots or something. They turn to go towards the dumpster again and they hear a bunch more shots (six or seven) and they stayed behind the building out of harms way. They’re right, they didn’t see much.
Witness 41 was interviewed twice on August 26th with the FBI present. She says she heard 2 shots and ran down the street to see what was going on. She saw Brown on his knees with his hands up being shot. He fell, and then Wilson got out of his car (?!) and “stood over the boy and just emptied his clip.” The interviewer asks how Brown was shot in the front if he was laying down, and the witness demonstrates. The interviewer accuses the witness of lying. The witness grabs the record and says she’s going to erase the testimony. When the recording comes back on (interview 2) she says that some parts of her statement were not completely true and she’s scared. She says the same basic thing but now says that she saw it from the back, not the front like she said the first time around. She says he was on his knees with his hands up and Wilson was walking towards him. Then she was tapped on the shoulder, turned away, and turned back to see Brown falling down. And then she says Wilson was standing over him and she heard “click click”. Apparently the gun was empty. The agent points out that that’s not how guns work, but she says she know what guns sound like when they’re empty because there’s shooting in that neighborhood all the time. Then she says that she wasn’t actually there to see Brown get shot, she just saw him fall to the ground after hearing 9 shots and then saw Wilson walk over to him going “click click.” She’s putting together a story on the fly here, and the interviewer seems skeptical. This was an odd one.
Witness 42 was interviewed on Aug 16th by the FBI. The witness was on their porch on their cell phone when they heard shots and hung up. They saw Brown running down the street followed by Wilson. Brown was shot once in the back, turned around and put his hands up as if to surrender. Brown “stepped closer to the officer.” Wilson then fires off “every round” into his chest, and as he got closer, let off a round “in his head, his cheek” and then stood over him. They describe one shot in the vehicle, and then a second shot that ended up in a building, and a 3rd shot in Brown’s back. The witness seems very familiar with evidence already released in the press by that point, and the interviewer is trying to get the witness to stick to what they saw. “Mr. Brown came in closer, not knowing to get down” and then was shot “execution style.” Once Brown was on the ground, Wilson stood over him and “finished him off.” The interviewer asks how many rounds at that point and the witness can’t answer. The interviewer says, “And he continued to fire and he struck him his head?” “Yes sir.”
Witness 43 was interviewed the day of the shooting. He saw Brown’s hands in the police car “tryin’ to snatch it away and then he got away.” I assume “it” means his hands, not his gun, so calm down there. He saw Wilson pull out a taser and try to tase him but miss (?!). “Then he pulled out the gun and tried to shoot him and missed. Then he ran down the street and then he shot him once and I stopped lookin’ but I heard like four or five more shots. Then when I looked back out there he was laying on the ground.” The only shot he saw was the first one from within the vehicle.
Trial transcript 1 is the medical examiner. Trial transcript 2 is the crime scene examiner. That’s as far as I’ve gotten but it appears at this point that they’re starting with the physical evidence. I decide to circle back around and start with the witness statements because… well, because I wanted to I guess.