Body integrity identity disorder vs Transgender: Are we OK with surgery for both?

Body integrity identity disorder
is a psychological disorder wherein sufferers feel they would be happier living as an amputee. It is related to xenomelia, “the oppressive feeling that one or more limbs of one’s body do not belong to one’s self”.

BIID is typically accompanied by the desire to amputate one or more healthy limbs to achieve that end.

If society is supportive of people who feel they are transgender and want to have surgery to align the way they feel with the way their body looks, should it also be supportive of people with body integrity identity disorder who want to have surgery to align the way they feel with the way their body looks?

I think we should be consistent with these two groups. I don’t see one group having the upper hand in terms of deserving our sympathy and approval.

Opinions?

If you think we should treat these two groups differently, can you explain why?

  1. Can Body Integrity Disorder be treated solely through therapy or medication?

  2. Assuming the answer to 1 is, “No,” what impact does untreated BID have on the patient’s quality of life? Are they at significantly increased risk of depression, drug or alcohol abuse, or suicide?

  3. Assuming 2 is, “Severely negative impacts,” does quality of life actually improve after they’ve had the surgery?

And one that’s a bit more meta:

  1. Should all diseases that present similar symptoms receive the same treatment?

Ultimately, the goal is to cure people, where the definition of “cure” is that the patient ends up happy and healthy. In terms of health, there’s no difference between the body of a woman and the body of a man. A healthiest that a woman can ever be isn’t any more nor less healthy than the healthiest a man can be. Consequently, there’s no difference between a cure where the patient ends up taking the body of a different gender. Functionally, they’re at 100% physically and, ideally, they are now at 100% mentally.

Amputation, by definition, leaves the person less healthy physically. A cure which accedes to the demands is impairing the person.

Beyond the physical health of the patient, at the end of everything, there’s the question of “are they going to stay satisfied”? If you turn a man into a woman and she’s satisfied as a woman and will continue to be so, then there’s no large loss. If you amputate a person’s left foot and the next day they want their right foot gone, then you amputate that and they want their right hand gone, etc. then there’s no knowing whether there will be a point of satisfaction or if the person is going to keep continually maiming themselves further. You may find out that the “cure” you have given them is not a cure and subsequently, all you have accomplished is to create a person who is just as poorly off as they had been before, mentally, and now missing a limb.

All of that said, gender reassignment is not a perfect process, in practice. The result (particularly if the person was beyond puberty at the point that the process began) is not someone who perfectly resembles a member of the opposite sex. And in either case, the person will be functionally “sterile”, since the change is largely cosmetic at this moment. So it’s a bit of a misnomer to say that the person ends up as a 100% healthy member of the opposite sex, given the limitations of today’s technology.

Further, there’s the question of how well they are accepted by society as a true member of the opposite sex. It is presumably going to be hard for a person to think of herself as a woman if the majority of those she interacts with do not view her as a woman, and instead view her as a man or as an odd or undesirable “third” gender.

And of course, restoring a person to their original gender will encounter the same problem. The process (particularly for men) is not completely reversible. So if a person is discovered to have not been satisfied by the transformation and wants to go back or wants to become something else (e.g., a cat), then suddenly you’ve run into the same problem as we fear with the serial amputater.

At the end of the day, what matters is the average end result based on actual case histories. Regardless of whether two things might, in some fantasy philosophical model, be the same thing, if in the real world, entirely different approaches work out, then so be it. And that’s where we are on this particular topic. I believe that the evidence is in favor of gender reassignment and against amputations, and consequently, all imperfections of either approach aside, what works in practice is what works. But certainly, there’s a lot of progress that needs to happen before we can really say that we have a cure in place.

Well, what are your answers to these questions? (esp. 2 and 3)

Why are you asking me? You’re the one arguing that Body Integrity Disorder should be treated the same way as Gender Identity Disorder. What are your answers to those questions?

Modifying the body seems like a very crude way of going about it with today’s ability to do so. It’s more like mutilating the body. We simply do not have the ability to turn a male body into female or the other way. We have the ability to sort of make it appear so, giving the person of a illusion of the other gender which is satisfactory for many.

We do have the ability to amputate limbs however which is giving exactly 100% what the patient is asking for. In some ways this may be more honest, because we can do what they request, not present a illusion by mutilation.

But this also perhaps touches on the reality. The transgendered person is asking for, satisfied with, and accepting a illusion, the transgendered knows they can never really be fully the opposite gender. The amputee is asking for reality, they know that a limb can be detached.

I do not know how we can reconcile which one is more valid however I feel we can decide that they are different.

I’m okay with surgery for neither.

Indeed. There’s a mountain of evidence that surgery improves outcomes for folks with gender dysphoria. Show me a similar mountain that surgery improves outcomes for folks with BIID, and I’ll go along with it. My feelings of ickiness about their desires have fucksoever to do with what their treatment should be.

Here’s one cite from Plos ONE regarding effectiveness of surgery for BIID patients.

**bolding **is mine

Looks like surgery works to increase quality of life for BIID patients seeking amputation. And the amputation leaves the patient *less *disabled than before surgery.

Wow, yeah, that’s a conundrum.

While my kneejerk reaction to amputation for BIID is “icky” what to do is not dependent on my feelings but what is best for the patient. I find it very hard to wrap my head around the notion of desiring to be an amputee, but then, I’ve often admitted that I have trouble understanding transgenderism on an emotional level as well.

Well… the only way I can condone surgery for BIID is if it improves the lives of those subjected to the “treatment”. How in the hell would you go about studying that in any sort of ethical manner? ONLY if outcomes for those undergoing amputation are better than outcomes from those not could I condone such a thing.

Aside from sterility, SRS results in a reasonable facsimile of a the identified-with gender. I don’t regard sterility as a significant handicap - people are not fertile for their entire lives, even many women who are fertile and reproduce are only fertile for less than half their lifetime. Infertility does not interfere with making a living, having a family, or raising (as opposed to siring or bearing) children. Amputation for BIID, though, results in a human being functionally less able than before because replacement limbs are simply not as good as natural limbs at this point, and those who will not accept a prosthesis will be at even more of a disadvantage. That doesn’t mean amputees can’t have careers, families, and raise children, too, but they are at a disadvantage in many more situations than the transgender. That, to me, is an important distinction between the two groups.

MMMmmmm… …upper hand. That’s what I need.

There’s a lot of evidence that BIID is brain based. It often starts after a head injury or a bad infection that affects the brain, and has been induced in primates by used surgery or lasers to destroy small parts of their brains that connect to their limbs.

It’s also been observed that people who lose limbs through accident do well with prostheses, and often “feel” that the prostheses takes the place of the phantom limb they continue to experience, while people born without a limb never like using a prosthesis, unless they are provided with it before the age of one. The theory is that you brain learns where a limb should be, and people born without a limb, or a partial limb, have their brain areas that “belong” to the missing part rededicated to something else-- the legs and feet, in the cases of people born without arms, which is why these people can do such remarkable things with their feet-- they have twice as much brain controlling their feet. In the case of a person missing a hand, but with an elbow stump, they can often use their elbow stump for grasping in a very hand-like way.

Anyway, the theory behind lots of cases of BIID is that the part of the brain that recognizes the limb as “self” is gone. When a person has a motor cortex injury, they may lose the ability to move a limb, but still recognize the limb as self. In people with BIID, the opposite seems to be true.

I want to see a little more research. I want to know that this is true to a very high degree of certainty, that there is no was to treat it with medication, surgery, or physical therapy, and that it can be diagnosed with something like MRI. If all those things are true, then I support amputation as a solution to this affliction.

People who have this as a brain-based affliction are not crazy. However, a people who is psychotic may at times deny their limb is their limb, and then later change their mind. It’s pretty easy to differentiate the psychotic (usually schizophrenic) from the non-psychotic (and yes, schizophrenia is brain-based, but it’s a problem with brain chemistry that affects many parts of the brain, not an organic problem affecting a specific area and only that area).

I know that was a long post, but I wanted to be very clear the circumstances under which I support amputation. A person who feels that his limb is “other” cannot use it effectively, even if there is nothing technically wrong with it. In order to function, these people often have to keep the limb bound out of the way; they also sometimes lack proprioception, or the sense of that limb in space (imagine the way you feel when you are drunk and don’t know where your hands and feet are, then imagine being fully sober, but still having that “where is it” feeling about one of your limbs). It can be a really disabling condition.

I don’t support amputation today; right now, I support more research into the condition. It may help people, and will certainly give us greater understanding of how the brain works. Either it will lead to a drug or surgery cure, or it will lead to the final verdict that amputation is a good solution for people with BIID.

I’ve tried to formulate a response to this thread but I can’t seem to come up with anything suitable for GD rather the Pit.

I’ll just say that “we” don’t have to be okay with the medical decisions of transgender people, and I couldn’t be happier about that fact.

Nice responses, esp. SageRat and RivkahChaya. I did not know those things.

I think the real takeaway here, as opposed to the “gotcha!” that the OP appeared to be trying to set up, is that there is a metric fuckton of stuff we still don’t understand about human brain/body interaction.

A lot of people seem to reflexively lump together all forms of psychological distress about one’s body into the category of general “nuttiness”, and to maintain that people shouldn’t be allowed to “mutilate” themselves on the basis of their “nutty beliefs”. Clearly, the issues actually involved here are way more complicated than that simplistic interpretation.

If someone seriously believes they would be better off as an amputee, there are alternatives other than amputation. Put the arm in a cast, for instance.

It is also worth noting that many Transgender people don’t go all the way to surgery. A man can live as a woman without having any medical procedure done at all.

Surgery should be pretty much a last resort…for just about everyone.

You’re ok limiting what others can do with their body?

Hows about letting the people getting the surgery make that call.

Is there? I haven’t read much on the issue, but what I have read doesn’t confirm that. For instance:

There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow.

The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham’s aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective.

There was also a recent Straight Dope column addressing the question, in which Cecil concluded, “The subject deserves more investigation.”

I wasn’t really trying to set up a “gotcha”.

I just know that a lot of doctors (and laypeople) are against amputation for BIID, but are OK with gender reassignment surgery for transgender.

If both conditions cause distress to the person, and this distress cannot be fixed without surgery, and the surgery does remove the distress for both conditions, I see no logical reason why a doctor would refuse to do it for BIID while agreeing to do it for transgender folks.

As you mention “there is a metric fuckton of stuff we still don’t understand about human brain/body interaction”, so a lot of research has to be done for all such conditions. But assuming that the research eventually shows beneficial results for surgery for both conditions, there is no reason to treat the two differently.

That study was a private study, with methods and criteria which were not available for review, which the authors have refused to allow public view of, and which has been widely discredited. This has been discussed here before.

I did a summary of studies and wrote it on a site I contribute to. Keep in mind that in the other current transgender thread I was accused of making “rambling,” “biased,” “preaching to the choir” “non-scientific” writing, largely by people who refused to read the article or its citations. So everything at the link below is likely to be worthless because I did the research.

I’ll post it here and you can read the results for yourself. Quality of Life in Treated Transsexuals | Transas City