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  #151  
Old 08-17-2015, 05:25 PM
Sailboat Sailboat is offline
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Originally Posted by Drunky Smurf View Post
The OP gets very very butthurt over many many things.
I would have said he's relentless in pursuit of his quarry.
  #152  
Old 08-17-2015, 06:23 PM
HeXen HeXen is offline
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Originally Posted by Human Action View Post
We don't let county clerks violate the law, or decide what the law is. That's a bit above their pay grade.
You failed to understand my point. You go in to get married, that is your goal. To achieve that goal, now that it's legal, has a simple solution....in other words, it's a solvable problem.

The issue with the clerk breaking the law has nothing to do with your end means, merely it was a roadblock (problem) that deterred you towards elsewhere (solution). In other words again, that clerk cannot stop you from getting married period, rather all they can do is deter you.
That is a legal issue for the courts or her employers to solve. You can sue or whatever but again, my point you have a problem, you also have a solution despite it's a work around.

The issue of finding another county and clerk to marry you also has a variety of simple solutions that are dependent on the individual. If you don't have legs, can't move your wheelchair, can't talk to ask for help or a ride...then marriage is certainly far from your problems.

American's need to stop the whining over solvable issues and asking for someone to hold their hands by actually using their brains to solve life's problems and dilemma's for themselves. It's part of being an adult. Rather some people would rather just give excuses after excuses and become a victim, practically going out of their way to become a victim. Helpless victim's... cry, sue, profit, repeat...what a pathetic adult life that must be.

Last edited by HeXen; 08-17-2015 at 06:27 PM.
  #153  
Old 08-17-2015, 06:33 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Originally Posted by HeXen View Post
You failed to understand my point. You go in to get married, that is your goal. To achieve that goal, now that it's legal, has a simple solution....in other words, it's a solvable problem.

The issue with the clerk breaking the law has nothing to do with your end means, merely it was a roadblock (problem) that deterred you towards elsewhere (solution). In other words again, that clerk cannot stop you from getting married period, rather all they can do is deter you.
That is a legal issue for the courts or her employers to solve. You can sue or whatever but again, my point you have a problem, you also have a solution despite it's a work around.

The issue of finding another county and clerk to marry you also has a variety of simple solutions that are dependent on the individual. If you don't have legs, can't move your wheelchair, can't talk to ask for help or a ride...then marriage is certainly far from your problems.

American's need to stop the whining over solvable issues and asking for someone to hold their hands by actually using their brains to solve life's problems and dilemma's for themselves. It's part of being an adult. Rather some people would rather just give excuses after excuses and become a victim, practically going out of their way to become a victim. Helpless victim's... cry, sue, profit, repeat...what a pathetic adult life that must be.
He understood your point. Your point was stupid, though, and it only gets worse the more you keep digging. If you can't get married here, just go somewhere else. And if you can't go somewhere else, tough titties. Who cares what the law is? You're making D'Anconia look like a genius.
  #154  
Old 08-17-2015, 06:39 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Originally Posted by HeXen View Post
You failed to understand my point. You go in to get married, that is your goal. To achieve that goal, now that it's legal, has a simple solution....in other words, it's a solvable problem.
What if my goal is to maintain employment, but my employer punches me in the face every morning? Should I just suck it up because I could find a different job? Or should we maybe do something about the employer?
  #155  
Old 08-17-2015, 06:54 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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Cite, please? I know of no one who has said this.

Most of us believe this was the correct decision, but I defy you to find anyone who has called it "genius."

You're a strange and very dishonest form of toad. You can only argue by putting up fallacious opinions and attributing them to others. I'd like to dip the points of my arrows into your sweat.
You're not worried about doing something bad to the meat?
  #156  
Old 08-17-2015, 07:09 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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Originally Posted by HeXen View Post
You failed to understand my point. You go in to get married, that is your goal. To achieve that goal, now that it's legal, has a simple solution....in other words, it's a solvable problem.
You, OTOH, appear to have failed to understand the point that it's unacceptable that there BE a problem.

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 08-17-2015 at 07:10 PM.
  #157  
Old 08-17-2015, 07:15 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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Exactly right, kaylasdad (and John Mace and RNATB).
  #158  
Old 08-17-2015, 08:48 PM
enipla enipla is offline
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Originally Posted by HeXen View Post
You failed to understand my point. You go in to get married, that is your goal. To achieve that goal, now that it's legal, has a simple solution....in other words, it's a solvable problem.

The issue with the clerk breaking the law has nothing to do with your end means, merely it was a roadblock (problem) that deterred you towards elsewhere (solution). In other words again, that clerk cannot stop you from getting married period, rather all they can do is deter you.
That is a legal issue for the courts or her employers to solve. You can sue or whatever but again, my point you have a problem, you also have a solution despite it's a work around.

The issue of finding another county and clerk to marry you also has a variety of simple solutions that are dependent on the individual. If you don't have legs, can't move your wheelchair, can't talk to ask for help or a ride...then marriage is certainly far from your problems.

American's need to stop the whining over solvable issues and asking for someone to hold their hands by actually using their brains to solve life's problems and dilemma's for themselves. It's part of being an adult. Rather some people would rather just give excuses after excuses and become a victim, practically going out of their way to become a victim. Helpless victim's... cry, sue, profit, repeat...what a pathetic adult life that must be.
Holy fuck. Understand your point? This isn't about getting a different lawn service because they refuse to trim. This is about the LAW. Or did you miss that?

This is about idiots and small minded people that refuse to do their job as required by LAW. The ONLY person that should go searching and be inconvenienced is the idiot county clerk that won't do their job. THEY are the ones that should look for a solution. Not the folks asking to be married. Holy fuck. Your point. Um huh.
  #159  
Old 08-17-2015, 09:30 PM
Hamlet Hamlet is offline
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He understood your point. Your point was stupid, though,
I love this comment so much, I want to marry it.
  #160  
Old 08-17-2015, 09:37 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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I love this comment so much, I want to marry it.
Good luck getting a license!
  #161  
Old 08-17-2015, 11:15 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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Update to this story

Quote:
U.S. District Judge David Bunning ordered Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis last week to issue licenses to two gay couples, and ruled Monday that she is not entitled to any more delays. But because "emotions are running high on both sides of this debate," he also stayed his decision while she takes her case to the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeal.
My initial reaction was, of course, "fuck you, Judge", but then I thought well, maybe this could help settle some of the issues surrounding the RFRA, so I'm refraining from uttering the invective at this point.

I still think it's bullshit to coddle bigots and allow this kind of footdragging, but maybe in the long run it'll be a net positive.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-17-2015 at 11:16 PM. Reason: well
  #162  
Old 08-18-2015, 12:28 AM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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From the same story linked in my previous post:
Quote:
Davis testified that the Bible teaches that marriage is between one man and one woman and that sex outside of marriage is a sin. Court records indicate Davis herself married when she was 18 in 1984, filed for divorce 10 years later, and then filed for divorce again, from another husband, in 2006.

Many Christians believe divorce also is a sin, and an attorney for the same-sex couples repeatedly questioned her about this in court. Asked if she would religiously object to issuing a marriage license to someone who has been divorced, she said "That's between them and God."
Ms.(? Mrs.?) Davis has a helluva set of beliefs, eh: no internal consistency required, apparently.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-18-2015 at 12:29 AM.
  #163  
Old 08-18-2015, 12:45 AM
Kolak of Twilo Kolak of Twilo is offline
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Asked if she would religiously object to issuing a marriage license to someone who has been divorced, she said "That's between them and God."
At least she was good enough to make it clear that when it comes to religious beliefs, she's just another garden-variety hypocrite.
  #164  
Old 08-18-2015, 09:17 AM
davidm davidm is offline
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Suppose we go with the idea that "oh, they can just get a license elsewhere".

Think about the consequences of this. County clerk is an elected position in many (most? all?) places in the US. In more regressive areas, people will start electing clerks who emphasize their religious beliefs against SSM or, if they don't want to do it that explicitly will instead emphasize their religiosity and perhaps how "family friendly" they are (wink wink).

Based on this they will win the elections and in those areas county after county will refuse licenses to same sex couples. The electorate will have effectively overruled SCOTUS and the Constitution via unconstitutional means.
  #165  
Old 08-18-2015, 09:30 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
My initial reaction was, of course, "fuck you, Judge", but then I thought well, maybe this could help settle some of the issues surrounding the RFRA, so I'm refraining from uttering the invective at this point.
What issues surrounding the RFRA?
  #166  
Old 08-18-2015, 09:54 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
From the same story linked in my previous post:
Ms.(? Mrs.?) Davis has a helluva set of beliefs, eh: no internal consistency required, apparently.
How do you know her brand of Christianity labels divorce a sin? I'd be more of her comment of the Bible saying marriage was between one man and one women. Polygamy is all over the place in the Bible, and I don't think there is any instructions in the NT that polygamy is no longer kosher.

Last edited by John Mace; 08-18-2015 at 09:54 AM.
  #167  
Old 08-18-2015, 12:05 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
How do you know her brand of Christianity labels divorce a sin? I'd be more of her comment of the Bible saying marriage was between one man and one women. Polygamy is all over the place in the Bible, and I don't think there is any instructions in the NT that polygamy is no longer kosher.
Quote:
On the stand Monday, Davis described herself as an Apostolic Christian who believes marriage is defined as the union of one man and one woman under the Bible — “God’s holy word” — and said she contemplated her policy for months.


Apostolic Christian Church of America: What we Believe
Quote:
Apostolic Christian beliefs are rooted in a literal interpretation of the Bible.
Quote:
18. Marriage is a lifelong union ordained of God in which a man and a woman of like mind, faith, and fellowship are united in the Lord in Holy Matrimony.


Until I see some information that Mrs. Davis's beliefs are different than the declared tenets of the Apostolic Church, I'm gonna stay with what I wrote.

I found this in an article at Christian Science Monitor:
Quote:
For her part, Davis describes herself as an Apostolic Christian who counsels prison inmates and goes to church three times a week. Though she says she believes sex outside of marriage is a sin, she doesn’t question couples about their sexual activity before handing them a marriage license.

In her view, she told Judge Bunning last month that “God’s holy word” is the highest law. When asked who has the final say on constitutional matters, she paused, then said, “I don’t know.”
The woman isn't fit to be County Clerk, IMO.
  #168  
Old 08-18-2015, 12:08 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
What issues surrounding the RFRA?
I think there are a lot of issues with the RFRA; this situation would be one of them manifesting.

If you'd like to discuss the RFRA in general, please start a new thread; I don't want to hijack this one in order to have that discussion.
  #169  
Old 08-18-2015, 12:21 PM
Clothahump Clothahump is offline
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Personally, I think Miss Davis and her legal team are fucked up and totally wrong here. I think they have no legal legs to stand on and are just pissing in the wind in order to get piss all over everything, metaphorically speaking.

So I would say to her: Fuck you. Fuck you and your stupid, bigoted, idiotic belief that led you to this place.
I have to agree with this. Yes, I know the Constitution points out that you have the right to worship whatever invisible sky fairy you want to. But seriously, lady - you wanna follow your interpretation of Jeebuz to the point that you are refusing to obey the law? Quit your frickin' job. Problem resolved, and you are no longer being an ignorant douche bag.

At least in this one particular case.
  #170  
Old 08-18-2015, 01:11 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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^ ^



  #171  
Old 08-18-2015, 01:23 PM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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Eh, it's not that atypical for a judge to delay a ruling pending an appeal. I figured it was a push as to which way he'd go on this. He knows this is a politically contentious issue, and also that it's not really settled until the appeals process is over, so he punted on jailing or fining the clerk immediately.
  #172  
Old 08-18-2015, 01:35 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
I think there are a lot of issues with the RFRA; this situation would be one of them manifesting.
In what way do you believe this case relates to the RFRA?
  #173  
Old 08-18-2015, 06:43 PM
Slow Moving Vehicle Slow Moving Vehicle is offline
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Eh, it's not that atypical for a judge to delay a ruling pending an appeal. I figured it was a push as to which way he'd go on this. He knows this is a politically contentious issue, and also that it's not really settled until the appeals process is over, so he punted on jailing or fining the clerk immediately.
I wondered if he was trying to make it harder for her and her backers to play the persecution card.
  #174  
Old 08-18-2015, 07:10 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is online now
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I wondered if he was trying to make it harder for her and her backers to play the persecution card.
If a reason didn't exist, they'd invent one. They've never hesitated to do so.
  #175  
Old 08-19-2015, 04:02 AM
Sophistry and Illusion Sophistry and Illusion is offline
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
How do you know her brand of Christianity labels divorce a sin? I'd be more of her comment of the Bible saying marriage was between one man and one women. Polygamy is all over the place in the Bible, and I don't think there is any instructions in the NT that polygamy is no longer kosher.
I think this is what us secular types find so fucking aggravating about this whole "defend biblical marriage" bullshit. It is manifestly a thin cover for homophobia. Christians have no interest in defending biblical marriage. Let's go straight to the source:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus, the son of God, who should know what the hell He is talking about
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
.

That's Matthew 19:8-9, for those who are following along at home.

So either ban second marriages, or STFU about defending biblical marriage. (This STFU is not directed at you, John Mace, but rather at the 'Christians' defending 'Biblical marriage'.)
  #176  
Old 08-20-2015, 08:59 AM
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As an aside, here's hoping a homosexual couple that hasn't been able to get married in her county sue the fuck out of her, like this couple in Texas.

Now, I doubt it will cost her anything out of her own pocket, but maybe it will make others in the community that are having their taxpayer dollars wasted or who are trying to balance a county budget much less likely to turn a blind eye to blatant discrimination.
  #177  
Old 08-20-2015, 09:14 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Eh, it's not that atypical for a judge to delay a ruling pending an appeal. I figured it was a push as to which way he'd go on this. He knows this is a politically contentious issue, and also that it's not really settled until the appeals process is over, so he punted on jailing or fining the clerk immediately.
It's not really contentious. Whether a deputy clerk may be subject to sanctions for refusing to personally issue a license is one thing, and subject to honest dispute. Whether the large-C Clerk is subject to sanctions for refusing to allow her office to issue one is another issue entirely, and it's pretty obvious that Obergefell requires her to issue the license.
  #178  
Old 08-20-2015, 12:09 PM
Miller Miller is online now
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I think this is what us secular types find so fucking aggravating about this whole "defend biblical marriage" bullshit. It is manifestly a thin cover for homophobia.
Nice post/user name combo!
  #179  
Old 08-20-2015, 02:01 PM
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In what way do you believe this case relates to the RFRA?
I can see it. At the very least, she's asserting that her religion gives her the right not to enforce the law, is she not?

Plus, isn't there technically a way to accommodate her religious beliefs--empower someone else not under her jurisdiction to hand out the licenses? How does that align with the whole "least restrictive" test?

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, which is why I put everything as a question. It just seems like there is always a way to accommodate religious beliefs.

And I could see her attempt to enforce her religion on her subordinates being a problem, especially since she works for the state. She'd be violating the very law she's appealing to by not accommodating their religious beliefs.
  #180  
Old 08-20-2015, 02:26 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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The RFRA only applies to interpretation of federal statutes (or state statutes, in the case of state RFRA equivalents). The right at issue here stems directly from the 14th Amendment, not a statute.

Last edited by Really Not All That Bright; 08-20-2015 at 02:27 PM.
  #181  
Old 08-20-2015, 02:48 PM
Bridget Burke Bridget Burke is offline
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A poster here says that the Supreme Court justices were "assholes" when they voted in Citizens, but suddenly, the same justices are A-OK when they vote the way he politically likes.
It's quite possible to disagree with some of the Supremes. But that's not denying their legal right to make those decisions. Ted Cruz, who clerked for Rehnquist, was being especially disingenuous when he coined the term "five unelected judges." He was shocked, shocked to realize that they had not been elected!

Anyone who knows the Constitution realizes there is a way to "fix" the Supreme Court--but it takes time. At this point, I'm hoping it is many years before another Republican has a chance to nominate a Supreme Court justice.

(Historical note: As a young lawyer, Cruz was a junior member of the team that argued Bush V Gore. Speaking of assholes!)
  #182  
Old 08-20-2015, 09:48 PM
Slow Moving Vehicle Slow Moving Vehicle is offline
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If a reason didn't exist, they'd invent one. They've never hesitated to do so.
So why put more bullets in their gun?

The money shot that the Liberty Counsel people are after is Davis being led away in handcuffs; a great visual for their "Christians are being thrown to the lions again" narrative. The judge issuing a stay, then fining her for contempt, is simply not as sexy.
  #183  
Old 08-20-2015, 11:26 PM
Zakalwe Zakalwe is online now
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American's need to stop the whining over solvable issues and asking for someone to hold their hands by actually using their brains to solve life's problems and dilemma's for themselves. It's part of being an adult. Rather some people would rather just give excuses after excuses and become a victim, practically going out of their way to become a victim. Helpless victim's... cry, sue, profit, repeat...what a pathetic adult life that must be.
You are absolutely correct here! And so when Liberal Town, USA bans guns, the NRA should keep its fucking mouth shut. After all, the people who have guns can simply go somewhere else. Or, given that it's becoming increasingly obvious that organized religion is a bad influence on children, Liberal Town says "no more churches inside city limits", the Christians should just start attending church outside the city and not whine about it. Right? After all, these are all solvable problems.

Or is it only a solvable problem when it's something you don't care about?

Last edited by Zakalwe; 08-20-2015 at 11:27 PM.
  #184  
Old 08-23-2015, 10:35 PM
SCAdian SCAdian is offline
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she will then be jailed indefinitely until she complies.
Presumably applications will be taken to her cell for her to sign (or not sign, as she pleases)?
  #185  
Old 08-27-2015, 11:05 AM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is offline
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Well, now she's defying the 6th Circuit Court's ruling too.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/kentucky...arriage-order/
  #186  
Old 08-27-2015, 11:13 AM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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This woman needs some jail time for contempt.
  #187  
Old 08-27-2015, 11:21 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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U.S. District Judge David Bunning had already ordered Davis to issue marriage licenses two weeks ago. He later delayed that ruling until Aug. 31 or until the U.S. 6th Circuit Court of Appeals issued a ruling. The appeals court did so on Wednesday, denying Davis' appeal.

But a deputy clerk in Davis' office told Smith and Yates on Thursday that the office believes Bunning's delay remains in effect until Aug. 31. He refused to give his name or give them a license.
I see two people that need to have their asses hauled before a judge.
  #188  
Old 08-27-2015, 11:23 AM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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Well, he could have been just following orders -- like the other camp guards.
  #189  
Old 08-27-2015, 12:10 PM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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Hmmm... the entire office is refusing to issue licenses. Does everyone in the office share that very same religious belief, or has she ordered everyone in the office to obey her religious belief?

It'd be great if one of her own staff sued her for not respecting THEIR beliefs.
  #190  
Old 08-27-2015, 06:10 PM
Drunky Smurf Drunky Smurf is offline
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Well, now she's defying the 6th Circuit Court's ruling too.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/kentucky...arriage-order/
Maybe it'll go all the way to the Supremes.
  #191  
Old 08-27-2015, 08:04 PM
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She will shortly be appointed Secretary of Sin by the soon-to-be-sworn-on President Trump.

That'll show us.
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  #192  
Old 08-27-2015, 08:42 PM
Morgyn Morgyn is offline
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I believe the deputy clerk is her son. And the prior clerk was her mother. They seem to have a little dynasty going on there.
  #193  
Old 08-28-2015, 02:18 AM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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A DICK dynasty, if you will.
  #194  
Old 08-28-2015, 06:27 PM
Mr. Greenjeans Mr. Greenjeans is offline
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Maybe it'll go all the way to the Supremes.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/...iage-case.html

And if they say No, she'll ask again.
  #195  
Old 08-28-2015, 06:52 PM
Frank Frank is offline
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/...iage-case.html

And if they say No, she'll ask again.
The justice hearing her appeal for the stay to continue is Kagan, who voted for the decision. I don't think she'll get the answer she's hoping for.

Davis has said that she will not issue licenses. Period. Ever. I don't see any way this will end short of her being fined and/or imprisoned for contempt of court. Then I guess they start all over with the deputy clerk, her son. It's Davis's all the way down.
  #196  
Old 08-30-2015, 08:42 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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Quote:
The Supreme Court ruled in June that the Constitution guarantees gay people the right to marry. But Davis contends the First Amendment guarantees her the right of religious freedom.
Garcetti v Ceballos found that 1st Amendment free speech rights were severely curtailed for public sector employees for statements made in accordance with their jobs; wouldn't that same rationale apply to 1st Amendment religious rights?

It seems to me that no matter where Mrs. Davis tries to make her stand, she has no legs at all.
  #197  
Old 08-30-2015, 08:56 PM
running coach running coach is online now
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Clerk Who Refuses To Marry LGBT Couples Performed Trans Man's Marriage
Quote:
A county clerk in Kentucky who petitioned the Supreme Court to allow her to refuse to wed LGBT couples unknowingly married a trans man and a pansexual woman, the couple says.

Davis issued the marriage certificate without asking for Colen's birth certificate, which identifies him as a female, he told the Courier-Journal.
*collapses with laughter*

Last edited by running coach; 08-30-2015 at 08:56 PM.
  #198  
Old 08-30-2015, 10:29 PM
Sitnam Sitnam is offline
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Satan and his ilk are deceivers, that's what they do and it's been proven here. So says her pastor, I'm sure.

Naw, the real humor is in her poor knowledge of her civic responsibilities, the nepotism of this Podunk Town, and the scary knowledge that the outside world requires change despite her struggle against it.

She will lose, that's all that matters, we don't need to make an example of her because this reality won't change despite the angry foot stomping of childlike obstinance.
  #199  
Old 08-31-2015, 02:29 AM
Truman Burbank Truman Burbank is offline
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It seems obvious that no matter how far upstairs this case gets kicked, she'll never relent, as her Supreme Being is always going gonna have rank. I wish she could at least be suspended without pay while she appeals.
  #200  
Old 08-31-2015, 08:22 PM
running coach running coach is online now
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Take your God and shove it!

OK, so the Supremes weren't quite that harsh but she loses another round.
Quote:
The Supreme Court on Monday ruled against the Kentucky county clerk who has refused to issue same-sex marriage licenses, and the clerk will arrive at work Tuesday morning to face her moment of truth.

Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis will have to choose whether to issue marriage licenses, defying her Christian conviction, or continue to refuse them, defying a federal judge who could pummel her with fines or order that she be hauled off to jail.
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