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  #51  
Old 03-05-2016, 10:46 PM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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  #52  
Old 03-06-2016, 01:51 AM
Willcross Willcross is offline
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Originally Posted by LSLGuy View Post
Historically it's real difficult in science to simply say "effective Jan 1 2017, this word now means that, and this other word now means what this used to mean. So whenever you read something published before this date and not edited since, use the old meanings. But if you read anything published or edited after this date use the new meanings." Not gonna happen.

What happens is what Chronos just said while I was typing. The deeper etymological basis of the word gets invalidated and the word continues to mean just what it did before. "Atom"'s etymology means "indivisible". But we now know they're not. But we still call them "atoms".
That's a great point I didn't consider
  #53  
Old 03-06-2016, 02:35 AM
eschereal eschereal is online now
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Maybe the Big Bang was not a singularity, some of the structure of the CMB may suggest that the Big Bang was just a massive fart in a pre-existing universe. Logically, "before the Big Bang" is not meaningful, in the context of the theory, but the theory may not be adequate to truly describe what happened.
  #54  
Old 03-06-2016, 07:32 AM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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On the other hand, sometimes the meaning does change. The word "Universe" was once used to describe merely our own Galaxy. After it was discovered that those other swirly spiral things were the same category as the Milky Way, there was a trend for a while to refer to them as "island universes", but that has now fallen by the wayside, and we now say that the Universe contains [sagan]Billions and Billions[/sagan] of galaxies.
  #55  
Old 03-06-2016, 08:24 AM
Lumpy Lumpy is offline
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Continuum
  #56  
Old 03-06-2016, 09:45 AM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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I like that: a unit of Sagan.
  #57  
Old 03-06-2016, 11:40 AM
eschereal eschereal is online now
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Originally Posted by Lumpy View Post
Continuum
Except, there would not be much in the way of contiguity amongst and between all the universes. It is probably more like some kind of supracosmic revue, a sort of incomprehensible goulash, heavily seasoned with paradox.
  #58  
Old 03-06-2016, 06:42 PM
Senegoid Senegoid is offline
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Okay then, supracosmic discontinuum.
  #59  
Old 03-06-2016, 08:18 PM
Asympotically fat Asympotically fat is offline
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Originally Posted by Senegoid View Post
Okay then, supracosmic discontinuum.
I'm going to call it the "connectinuum", as presumably for us talk about all of reality it must all be connected in some way. Some metaphysicists though might argue that there may be some elements of reality that are not connected to each other, to which I would say that is the even larger "disconnectinuum" of course.
  #60  
Old 03-07-2016, 08:47 PM
barath_s barath_s is offline
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Originally Posted by Peremensoe View Post
"The universe," or our universe, comprises everything that we can point to in our space and time.
.
Quibble : The observable universe is everything we can point to in our space and time.

The universe is larger than the observable universe.

http://www.space.com/24073-how-big-is-the-universe.html


We can see stuff approximately 13.8 billion years ago./ light years away
Due to expansion, that point is actually about 46 billion light years away., making the observable universe approximately 93 billion light years across.

The universe is bigger than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_universe

http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog...popular-1.html

Then there is the global universe, whose size (boundedness , finite or infinite) and global shape ( flat, curved analogous to a saddle or a sphere or other form) and connectedness are yet to be determined.

One link above states the universe could be 250 times bigger than ~ observable universe ( but presumably still infinite)


I have difficulty understanding this curvature and the concept of a global universe (which is not the omniverse)
  #61  
Old 03-07-2016, 09:17 PM
Peremensoe Peremensoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barath_s View Post
Quibble : The observable universe is everything we can point to in our space and time.

The universe is larger than the observable universe.
We can 'point' beyond the observable universe, in the sense I mean. We can meaningfully (if theoretically) talk about space beyond our sight, and distant past and future times, in ways that we cannot for other universes. We know that the physics of our universe, beyond the observable edge, has to mesh with observed physics. There are no comparable statements about the physics of other universes, or the nature of the relationships between them.

Last edited by Peremensoe; 03-07-2016 at 09:22 PM.
  #62  
Old 03-07-2016, 09:47 PM
JohnClay JohnClay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barath_s View Post
....Then there is the global universe, whose size (boundedness , finite or infinite) and global shape ( flat, curved analogous to a saddle or a sphere or other form) and connectedness are yet to be determined.
.....
I have difficulty understanding this curvature and the concept of a global universe (which is not the omniverse)
If it is curved like a sphere then it is 3D space on the surface of a hypersphere. Expansion would be like drawing galaxies on a balloon's surface and inflating it. That way there is no edge. It would be weird if space didn't loop back on itself then there would be an edge of the universe.
  #63  
Old 03-07-2016, 09:52 PM
JohnClay JohnClay is offline
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Edit: unless the universe was completely infinite - then I guess there would be no edge. But I'm not sure how a singularity could lead to infinite space.
  #64  
Old 03-07-2016, 10:42 PM
eschereal eschereal is online now
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The universe, as we know it, is an elaborate thing that seems to be comprised of many layers, some that we have yet to discover, comprehend, or even imagine. The layers seem to go on and on and on, like some sort of infinite onion.

When European explorers arrived at the southern end of Lake Michigan, they asked the natives what this place was called. The natives gave them a word in their native language that translates to something like "reeks of too many onions". The name, of course, stuck.

Therefore, I submit, this universe, all its companions, and the ultra-ęther in which they reside deserves to be known as "Chicago".
  #65  
Old 03-07-2016, 10:44 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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It might help to think of the singularity as being infinite density, rather than thinking of it as being zero size.
  #66  
Old 03-07-2016, 11:12 PM
JohnClay JohnClay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
It might help to think of the singularity as being infinite density, rather than thinking of it as being zero size.
Then there's the fine tuning problem. I think it is more reasonable to imagine a near infinite number of finite universes with different parameters than a near or fully infinite number of universes of infinite size.
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