Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 04-07-2016, 09:10 AM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 54,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve MB View Post

After eliminating all the obvious straightforward explanations, they kludged together something about a genetic retrovirus in ST:E.
Fan-fic.
  #52  
Old 04-07-2016, 09:15 AM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 54,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinopus View Post
Re Chekhov / Chekov, you might want to ask Tschaikovskii about that.
Translating the Cyrillic alphabet seems for like phonetic pronunciation to me.
Tsar Czar.
  #53  
Old 04-07-2016, 03:49 PM
terentii terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 14,429
Chekhov (the author) is Чехов.

Chekov (the ensign) would be spelled Чеков. The two are pronounced differently.

Chaikovskii (the composer) is Чайковский. The spellings with Tch- are Western conventions.

So far as I know, Chaikovskii is derived from чайка, "seagull."

I'm guessing that Chekhov is somehow derived from чех, "Czech."

The name Chekov, if it exists (and I have never heard of anyone else who has it), could be derived from any one of these:

http://www.multitran.ru/c/m.exe?CL=1&s=%F7%E5%EA&l1=1

Царь is the Russian spelling of "Tsar." The spelling "Czar" is another Western convention. The word itself is derived from "Caesar."
  #54  
Old 04-07-2016, 03:53 PM
terentii terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 14,429
Чек can also mean "Bohemian," depending on context (Bohemia being one of the traditional Czech lands).
  #55  
Old 04-07-2016, 04:00 PM
terentii terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 14,429
Sorry, copied the wrong spelling. Чех can also mean "Bohemian."
  #56  
Old 04-07-2016, 04:22 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 54,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by terentii View Post
The word itself is derived from "Caesar."
That I did know, as is Kaiser.


But come now, we have the saying "Chekov's Phaser". (sp)
  #57  
Old 04-07-2016, 04:34 PM
terentii terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 14,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
But come now, we have the saying "Chekov's Phaser". (sp)
A lighthearted play on "Chekhov's gun."
  #58  
Old 04-07-2016, 09:51 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 54,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by terentii View Post
A lighthearted play on "Chekhov's gun."
Indeed, Sir.

If a flying dinner pizza is seen in the first scene, it must attack Spock by the third.

Last edited by carnivorousplant; 04-07-2016 at 09:52 PM.
  #59  
Old 04-08-2016, 01:50 PM
Corner Case Corner Case is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Flower Mound, TX, USA
Posts: 1,459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve MB View Post
The problem with that theory is that several Klingon characters who had appeared in ST:TOS (no ridges) appeared in ST:DS9 (with ridges).

After eliminating all the obvious straightforward explanations, they kludged together something about a genetic retrovirus in ST:E.
Picard: What makes you think she's a doctor?
Worf: Well, she turned me into a Klingon
Picard: A Klingon?
Worf: {meekly, after a long pause} ... I got better.
Crew: {shouts} Burn her anyway!
  #60  
Old 04-08-2016, 05:59 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 12,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by RealityChuck View Post
I've also heard stories that the name was chosen because they meant Klingons, but forgot what they had called the Klingons (or vice versa).
Quote:
Originally Posted by RealityChuck View Post
Maybe, but can you confirm or deny the story that they named one group of aliens and planned to use them again, but chose a different name?
I've not heard that with respect to the names or looks of the races. But it is something that happened with respect to the space ships. One episode of Romulans has them flying Klingon Bird of Preys. The kludge answer is that the Romulans were obviously buying weapons from the Klingons in some sort of complicated arms deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
Fan-fic.
It should be relegated to fan-fic. Alas, it is canon from Enterprise.
  #61  
Old 04-08-2016, 11:07 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 54,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishman View Post



It should be relegated to fan-fic. Alas, it is canon from Enterprise.
Alas, Star Trek has gone to hell.
Scott Bakula jumped into a Federation starship captain, and had absolutely no idea what to do.
  #62  
Old 04-09-2016, 12:43 AM
terentii terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 14,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
I've not heard that with respect to the names or looks of the races. But it is something that happened with respect to the space ships. One episode of Romulans has them flying Klingon Bird of Preys. The kludge answer is that the Romulans were obviously buying weapons from the Klingons in some sort of complicated arms deal.
After the end of the second season (TOS), the Romulans supposedly entered into an alliance with the Klingons against the Federation. This meant they were armed with Klingon ships and materiel, which was a vast improvement over their impulse-driven warships (the original birds of prey).

In reality, it probably had more to do with saving money on ship models and opticals. So far as I know, nothing much ever happened with the alliance (at least, outside of the many ST novels, which I've made a point of not reading for the last thirty-odd years).

Interestingly, if you watch the remastered edition of "The Enterprise Incident," you'll see the Enterprise bracketed by both Klingon D-7s and the old Romulan birds of prey. In the original version, the latter were conspiculously absent. (I guess CGI made them affordable again.)

Last edited by terentii; 04-09-2016 at 12:48 AM.
  #63  
Old 04-09-2016, 10:21 AM
Haldurson Haldurson is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 133
One thing that has always bothered me (and this is not isolated to Star Trek, or even science fiction) is the use of the word 'race' instead of 'species'. Traditionally, 'race' is a semi-arbitrary designation for someone of the same species to designate a difference either in appearance or heritage (a lot of it is arbitrary because genetically, things are a lot more complicated than common usage would lead you to believe, but that's beyond this discussion). In any case, outside of science fiction and fantasy, we do not even use the term 'race' when talking about non-human species (we don't say that poodles are a different race from Irish setters).

So why is it in fantasy and science fiction that we call unrelated intelligent species as being of a separate 'race'?

And even more troubling (at least to me), why is it that we accept that humanity is extremely diverse, with many cultures, and yet in so much science fiction and fantasy, these 'races' seem to be characterized in such simplistic terms (war-like Klingons, evil Romulans/Orcs, good dwarves/elves, etc.)

I find it to be quite troubling. Either it illustrates a theme, whether intentional or not, of racism or prejudice, or it shows a distinct laziness.

Last edited by Haldurson; 04-09-2016 at 10:23 AM.
  #64  
Old 04-09-2016, 02:03 PM
Peremensoe Peremensoe is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 11,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldurson View Post
One thing that has always bothered me (and this is not isolated to Star Trek, or even science fiction) is the use of the word 'race' instead of 'species'. Traditionally, 'race' is a semi-arbitrary designation for someone of the same species to designate a difference either in appearance or heritage...
The science-fiction (and RPG) usage makes more sense, actually.

In any case, some Treks do use "species."

Last edited by Peremensoe; 04-09-2016 at 02:04 PM.
  #65  
Old 04-09-2016, 02:19 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 54,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldurson View Post
One thing that has always bothered me (and this is not isolated to Star Trek, or even science fiction) is the use of the word 'race' instead of 'species'.
Perhaps it is futuristic PC.
  #66  
Old 04-09-2016, 04:16 PM
terentii terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 14,429
Is not the term "the human race" in common parlance?

Homo sapiens is the species.
  #67  
Old 04-09-2016, 04:18 PM
terentii terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 14,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldurson View Post
I find it to be quite troubling. Either it illustrates a theme, whether intentional or not, of racism or prejudice, or it shows a distinct laziness.
You obviously have a lot of free time on your hands....
  #68  
Old 04-09-2016, 05:41 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 12,195
Quote:
Originally Posted by terentii View Post
After the end of the second season (TOS), the Romulans supposedly entered into an alliance with the Klingons against the Federation. This meant they were armed with Klingon ships and materiel, which was a vast improvement over their impulse-driven warships (the original birds of prey).
Was this ever stated in the show, or just used as a post-hoc explanation?

Quote:
In reality, it probably had more to do with saving money on ship models and opticals. So far as I know, nothing much ever happened with the alliance (at least, outside of the many ST novels, which I've made a point of not reading for the last thirty-odd years).
Yes, saving money, which is why nothing ever happened with it beyond the TV episodes using one ship for both groups.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haldurson View Post
And even more troubling (at least to me), why is it that we accept that humanity is extremely diverse, with many cultures, and yet in so much science fiction and fantasy, these 'races' seem to be characterized in such simplistic terms (war-like Klingons, evil Romulans/Orcs, good dwarves/elves, etc.)
From a story-telling standpoint, SF is typically using different aliens to examine human issues. As such, simplifying one culture to an entire species is really just filling in for one nation or one culture on Earth. Thus the monocultures of all aliens, versus the diversity of hoo-mons.

There is more diversity in some written SF, where those themes are examined in greater detail.
  #69  
Old 04-09-2016, 06:03 PM
terentii terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 14,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
Was this ever stated in the show, or just used as a post-hoc explanation?
It was noted specifically in The Making of Star Trek, which predated the start of the third season. It was referenced obliquely in "The Enterprise Incident."

SPOCK: Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design.
  #70  
Old 04-09-2016, 06:19 PM
terentii terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 14,429
I believe the last time we saw an original Romulan warbird in the non-remastered TOS was in "The Deadly Years." I haven't seen the remastered episode, so I don't know what it contains now.
  #71  
Old 04-09-2016, 06:36 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 54,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
Was this ever stated in the show, or just used as a post-hoc explanation?


In The Enterprise Incident, Spock says, "Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design."

They couldn't afford more models.
  #72  
Old 04-09-2016, 07:15 PM
terentii terentii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Moscow/Toronto
Posts: 14,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
In The Enterprise Incident, Spock says, "Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design."

They couldn't afford more models.
I believe I said that.
  #73  
Old 04-09-2016, 07:20 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 54,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by terentii View Post
I believe I said that.
I was somewhat more specific in answering his question, but I tender my apologies, nonetheless.
  #74  
Old 04-11-2016, 02:03 PM
Blue Blistering Barnacle Blue Blistering Barnacle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by terentii View Post
According to David Gerrold, the makeup used for the Klingons was inconsistent the second time they appeared (in "The Trouble with Tribbles"). Ruth Berman explained this in one of her short stories by saying they obviously belonged to different races of the same species, which is entirely logical.

The cranial ridges used in and after TNG could likewise have easily been explained by the Empire being made up of many different species, all of whom are considered Klingons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cochrane View Post
Wasn't the first appearance of Klingons with brow ridges in Star Trek: The Motion Picture in 1979, right at the beginning when their ship is destroyed by V'Ger? One of them was played by Mark Lenard, who also played Spock's father and was the Romulan commander in Balance of Terror.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve MB View Post
The problem with that theory is that several Klingon characters who had appeared in ST:TOS (no ridges) appeared in ST:DS9 (with ridges).

After eliminating all the obvious straightforward explanations, they kludged together something about a genetic retrovirus in ST:E.
Quote:
Originally Posted by terentii View Post
"Kludge" is a very apt term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cochrane View Post
I liked Worf's answer in Trials and Tribble-ations: "We do not speak of it with outsiders."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peremensoe View Post
Yes. A joke by the writers, of course. The only non-absurd actual answer is that Klingons always had ridges.
My (very non-canon) take on it was that the scheming Klingons of TOS were soft, civilized city Klingons. I can only presume that they were violently supplanted by a fiercer Klingon race of the steppes or mountains, with manly brow ridges to go with their notions of directness, war, and honor. I imagine that the "civilized" Klingons are kept on a short leash, working hard in the engine rooms, dry-docks, laboratories, and mines. (Yes, I know that this view contradicts rare sightings of Klingon engineers on TNG, who seem to have brow ridges. Maybe he was a "boss" engineer whose main job was to watch the shifty guys doing the real work?)
  #75  
Old 04-11-2016, 02:19 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 54,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Blistering Barnacle View Post
My (very non-canon) take on it was that the scheming Klingons of TOS were soft, civilized city Klingons. I can only presume that they were violently supplanted by a fiercer Klingon race of the steppes or mountains, with manly brow ridges to go with their notions of directness, war, and honor.
That still does not explain Kang having a smooth forehead in TOS and ridges in DS9.
  #76  
Old 04-11-2016, 02:35 PM
Blue Blistering Barnacle Blue Blistering Barnacle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
That still does not explain Kang having a smooth forehead in TOS and ridges in DS9.
Yeah, I know, I saw that comment. Myself, I'm not up on the fine details.

FWIW, any explanation for this mess is going to have holes. I'll just once again point out that the Klingons show significantly different behaviors going from TOS to later iterations. I suppose that could also be explained by a "retrovirus" (a "retcon virus", if you will), but frankly, IMHO they seem to have morphed into something very much like a nomadic pre-industrial tribe in command of starships.
  #77  
Old 04-11-2016, 03:34 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 54,333
I did not like the fan fic episode of Enterprise that wasted time explaining it.
The program was improving and just hit it's stride when it was canceled from the loser episodes.
  #78  
Old 04-11-2016, 03:49 PM
Skald the Rhymer Skald the Rhymer is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 27,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
I did not like the fan fic episode of Enterprise that wasted time explaining it.
The program was improving and just hit it's stride when it was canceled from the loser episodes.
The best explanation was simply ignoring it. The real-world reason was "The producers changed their mind about how Klingons look after TOS because they had more money to spend on makeup," after all. It's not necessary to give everything an in-story explanation. I'm just glad nobody ever tried to justify TOS' calling Spock a Vulcanian in the first season but simply a Vulcan later.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:32 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@chicagoreader.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright 2017 Sun-Times Media, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017