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  #51  
Old 04-05-2016, 02:17 AM
Isilder Isilder is offline
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Hmm.. did anyone ever name their child "Lastname Firstname Middlename".

You can't even copy... what , you must be playing games with me ! Get out of here and never come back !
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  #52  
Old 04-05-2016, 09:15 AM
MacLir MacLir is offline
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In my own case:
First Name - Most often a first name, but not unheard of as a last
Middle Name - Uncommon spelling (but I think it may be the original spelling), my father's first name, but only other user of that spelling I know of has it as a last name.
Last Name - much more common as a first name (unless prefixed with Mac or O')

My mother's maiden name is more common as a first name, and often mistaken, and she said she thought it would be a pleasant change when she married a man with a simple name - then she found out how many different spellings there were. (Supposedly over 100 if you count the Macs and the O's)

In fact, the gentleman referred to above has a variant of my last name as his first.
  #53  
Old 04-05-2016, 08:35 PM
Melbourne Melbourne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunstone View Post
My given name is often a last name, and my last name is often a given name. The only problems I've had over my lifetime consist of people who insist my last name is my first, and vice versa.
....
My wife has a first name that is never a last name so she has no sympathy for me and our children.


My given name is sometimes a last name, and my last name is often a given name. Same for my brother. It's not a problem for other people, but I do remember answering the phone in some confusion when I got a call from [Lastname, Brother]. For a moment I was -- no this isn't [Brother Lastname], shall I get him?

Last edited by Melbourne; 04-05-2016 at 08:35 PM.
  #54  
Old 04-08-2016, 04:43 PM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
It might be stressed that we are talking only about names of British origin. Spanish last names, for example, are distinct and virtually never used as first names; nor do typical first names appear as last names.
I sure hope Italians never adopt that practice, and here's why. Like in Spanish, Italian given names and surnames do not overlap. I do a lot of translations from Italian and I have to be able to tell what is someone's last name or first name so I can put given name first and surname last consistently.

But in Italy they do this crazy thing where they put their surname first, like in Hungary, China, or Japan. Unlike in those countries, Italians don't use reverse order consistently. Maybe only about half the time, and that randomly. It isn't uncommon to find a person's name given in both orders at different places on the same document. This randomly scrambled madness works only because surnames don't get used as given names, and vice versa.
  #55  
Old 04-12-2016, 08:55 PM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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Just met a Peyton. Girl.
Did we disinclude Latin-derived names? Andrea goes both, but in English I've seen only female. OP?

Rainer Maria Rilke. Leopold Paula Bloom (typo, presumably, on his birth certificate). Didn't Winston Churchill have some feminine name? John Wayne also?

Last edited by Leo Bloom; 04-12-2016 at 08:57 PM.
  #56  
Old 04-13-2016, 07:18 AM
LSLGuy LSLGuy is offline
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John Wayn'e given birth name was "Marion."
  #57  
Old 04-13-2016, 01:11 PM
Waltzes with Cacti Waltzes with Cacti is offline
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A popular bandleader from the big band era used to be introduced to audiences as "Harry James, the man with two front names."
  #58  
Old 04-14-2016, 09:42 AM
svd678 svd678 is offline
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I knew a man whose first name was Chancelor. He said when he entered college the president complained he was outranked by a freshman.
  #59  
Old 04-14-2016, 10:29 AM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna View Post
I sure hope Italians never adopt that practice, and here's why. Like in Spanish, Italian given names and surnames do not overlap. I do a lot of translations from Italian and I have to be able to tell what is someone's last name or first name so I can put given name first and surname last consistently.

But in Italy they do this crazy thing where they put their surname first, like in Hungary, China, or Japan. Unlike in those countries, Italians don't use reverse order consistently. Maybe only about half the time, and that randomly. It isn't uncommon to find a person's name given in both orders at different places on the same document. This randomly scrambled madness works only because surnames don't get used as given names, and vice versa.
Rarely, they do. I have seen Rosa, Palma, Roberto, Sabato, Tommasino, Massimino, and Ippolito as Italian surnames. It's definitely unusual, though. All are examples from Campania in the 19th century, and yes, I'm sure that none are just the cases of having the order reversed (though the records I'm working with do occasionally randomly switch the order as you say).
  #60  
Old 04-14-2016, 10:34 AM
Nava Nava is online now
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None of those are a case of "last name used as first name", though. "First name as a last name" happens in Spanish names as well (both with and without a San or Santa or a de). Often the last name version used to have that extra bit but lost it, either gradually or by government fiat (which may have been simply a matter of the guy at the civil registry writing the name whichever way he felt like using).

Last edited by Nava; 04-14-2016 at 10:37 AM.
  #61  
Old 04-14-2016, 11:00 AM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
None of those are a case of "last name used as first name", though. "First name as a last name" happens in Spanish names as well (both with and without a San or Santa or a de). Often the last name version used to have that extra bit but lost it, either gradually or by government fiat (which may have been simply a matter of the guy at the civil registry writing the name whichever way he felt like using).
True. Exactly the same can be said of the Italian names ("Di" is more common than "De," but both are found in profusion).
  #62  
Old 04-21-2016, 12:12 PM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
Rarely, they do. I have seen Rosa, Palma, Roberto, Sabato, Tommasino, Massimino, and Ippolito as Italian surnames. It's definitely unusual, though. All are examples from Campania in the 19th century, and yes, I'm sure that none are just the cases of having the order reversed (though the records I'm working with do occasionally randomly switch the order as you say).
Right, there are rare exceptions in both Italian and Spanish: I thought of Albert Anastasia and Raúl Julia. In America, girls get surnames as first names. In Romance languages, girls' first names become surnames? At least that would offer a sort of symmetry.
  #63  
Old 04-21-2016, 12:26 PM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is offline
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In all these cases, it's probably patronymics and matronymics in the form "DI X" that get elided to "X" over time. In my list, the same individuals are alternately "Rosa" or "Di Rosa"; same with "Palma" and "Di Palma." I don't have examples in my data of the others alternating, but I'm sure I've seen "Di Sabato" as a surname.

I've also noticed the surprising habit of assigning orphans surnames chosen at random. "Massimo" was one of those. The death rate of orphans is astronomical (something above 90%), so most of the surnames don't get passed on, but a couple do.
  #64  
Old 04-23-2016, 11:12 AM
Corry El Corry El is offline
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There are cases where Chinese characters used in Japanese, which the Japanese call kanji, can signify either a surname or a given name. However in most cases the Japanese pronunciation (ie the hiragana rendering of the character) is different in the two cases.

For example 永, meaning 'long' or 'eternity' in Chinese, can signify the surname Nagai or the given name Hisashi in Japanese, among other pronunciations.

There might be cases in which the pronunciation is also the same as given or surname, though I can't think of any offhand, better Japanese speakers might. Anyway there are a fair number of cases such as the example.

In Korean a large % of surnames are a single Chinese character and large % of given names are two Chinese characters. However there are exceptions including cases where surname and given name are both one character, where it's possible the given name could be a phoneme in the Korean language that is also a surname. I knew a person with such a name. However the Chinese character of his given name was not the same as the one used for the surname, the two Chinese characters just had the same pronunciation in Korean and thus the same spelling in the Korean alphabet.

In Japanese the same Chinese character is often pronounced different ways in different contexts, with a pronunciation related to the Chinese and other often completely different pronunciations from the indigenous language. Also sometimes the same pronunciation might be used for different characters. In Korean several to dozens of fairly common Chinese characters share the same Chinese-language related pronunciation and Korean spelling, without the tonal distinctions of the Chinese spoken language. The same character might have varying pronunciation in Korean depending on context but a relatively similar not completely different pronunciation.

In those two languages there's thus a different kind of ambiguity as to what 'the same name' means than in various Western languages. Does it mean the same pronunciation and same hiragana/hangul spelling in Japanese/Korean, or does it mean same underlying Chinese character?

Last edited by Corry El; 04-23-2016 at 11:15 AM.
  #65  
Old 04-24-2016, 06:48 AM
JKellyMap JKellyMap is online now
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Perhaps this has been mentioned, but....Rather like in Icelandic and Russian, traditionally in Tamil one's first (given) name is one's father's last (family) name, especially for men, so: 1. ALL names were equally regarded as "typically first" or "typically last," and 2. "Family" names change each generation.

My father-in-law decided to end this practice with his children, so my wife's maiden (family) name is the same as my father-in-laws's FIRST (given) name. It's also my brother-in-law's last name, and the last name of his kids (my nephews), in the normal, Western, English style. Thus, potentially hundreds of people for centuries into the future will have a last name that just happened to be the first (given) name of a particular person born in the 20th century -- my father-in-law.
  #66  
Old 04-24-2016, 05:26 PM
from_a_to_z from_a_to_z is offline
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Somebody from Eastern Michigan University

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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Penguin View Post
No one in the OP was given the name Kennedy. There was a Kyle, a Duncan and a Wilson. Am I missing something and if so, what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LSLGuy View Post
"Kennedy" was chosen as a given name for lots of newborns during / after JFK's presidency. Prior to that almost nobody had that as a given name. IOW, that name became repurposed from being exclusively a family name to also being a given name.
This brings back memories of a former NBA player with the Bulls and SuperSonics, Kennedy McIntosh. Evidently not the Kennedy McIntosh who has the Best Friend Tag with Haylee!
  #67  
Old 04-24-2016, 06:37 PM
Colibri Colibri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna View Post
Right, there are rare exceptions in both Italian and Spanish: I thought of Albert Anastasia and Raúl Julia. In America, girls get surnames as first names. In Romance languages, girls' first names become surnames? At least that would offer a sort of symmetry.
Carlos is probably the (male) first name I have seen most frequently as a Spanish surname.
  #68  
Old 04-25-2016, 01:21 AM
Nava Nava is online now
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
I've also noticed the surprising habit of assigning orphans surnames chosen at random. "Massimo" was one of those. The death rate of orphans is astronomical (something above 90%), so most of the surnames don't get passed on, but a couple do.
I don't know if this will have happened in Italy, but in Spain two common sources of lastnames for foundlings were the name of the place where they'd been found (often a church, which would yield a "Sansomething" name) or of the saint of the day. They might even get the name of one of the day's saints as a firstname, and of another as a lastname.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna View Post
Right, there are rare exceptions in both Italian and Spanish: I thought of Albert Anastasia and Raúl Julia. In America, girls get surnames as first names. In Romance languages, girls' first names become surnames? At least that would offer a sort of symmetry.
Julià (cat), then Juliá (es), then Julia (en). It's of Catalan origin and male (Julianus, Julian), not the female firstname Julia.



Colibri, I suspect you've actually encountered García more often. It's only that nowadays it's rare as a firstname.

Last edited by Nava; 04-25-2016 at 01:24 AM.
  #69  
Old 04-25-2016, 10:39 AM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
I don't know if this will have happened in Italy, but in Spain two common sources of lastnames for foundlings were the name of the place where they'd been found (often a church, which would yield a "Sansomething" name) or of the saint of the day. They might even get the name of one of the day's saints as a firstname, and of another as a last name...
Isn't this the way--not just for Spanish catholics--that some women (I've only seen this with nuns, admittedly) will get unabashedly male first names, let alone ambiguous ones?
  #70  
Old 04-25-2016, 10:54 AM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nava View Post
I don't know if this will have happened in Italy, but in Spain two common sources of lastnames for foundlings were the name of the place where they'd been found (often a church, which would yield a "Sansomething" name) or of the saint of the day. They might even get the name of one of the day's saints as a firstname, and of another as a lastname.
No saints in my lists so far. There are 73 orphan surnames, including:

diminutive given names: Agrippino, Costantino, Marcellino, Massimino
regular given names: Fortunato, Roberto, Rolando
random nouns: Aiuto (help), Fiore (flower), Ottobre (October), Paradiso (Paradise), Pertuso (dial.: hole), Spada (sword), Specchio (mirror)
compounds: Bellafortuna (good luck), Malerba (weed, lit. "bad grass")
street names: Fontana, Serrabocca
places: Foresta (forest)
adjectives: Gentile (nice)
  #71  
Old 04-25-2016, 05:06 PM
Do Not Taunt Do Not Taunt is offline
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This thread reminds me of Libby Lewis (NPR reporter) doing a story on Lewis ("Scooter") Libby during his scandal. Apparently NPR got a number of emails from confused listeners thinking that Ms. Lewis had gotten Mr. Libby's name wrong.
  #72  
Old 04-26-2016, 07:21 AM
Nava Nava is online now
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Originally Posted by Leo Bloom View Post
Isn't this the way--not just for Spanish catholics--that some women (I've only seen this with nuns, admittedly) will get unabashedly male first names, let alone ambiguous ones?
No, the nuns choose those names because of their meaning. As for combinations such as María Jesús, that's unabashedly female while its cousin Jesús María is unabashedly male: the first word defines the gender for the whole name.

Last edited by Nava; 04-26-2016 at 07:22 AM.
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