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  #51  
Old 04-14-2016, 05:01 PM
Aspidistra Aspidistra is offline
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Originally Posted by araminty View Post
This example doesn't fit neatly into the OP's requirements, but it's an interesting story. Zoology blogger Darren Naish describes it as "taxonomic vandalism." Here's his post on the issue.

The particular idiot in question is an amateur herpetologist, who, for his own bizarre reasons, has taken it upon himself to rename and reclassify Australian reptile fauna. He has succeeded in publishing a LOT of papers, by dint of founding his own "journal." Because of the ICZN's established rules of taxonomy, including the Principle of Priority, the ludicrous new names he applies are, technically, valid.

The guy (I'm not using his name, as he probably has Google alerts up the wazoo and is loudly defensive of his "work") is also known as a cowboy snake exhibit, draping venomous snakes, that he has surgically altered, all over children. He gives me the heebie-jeebies. I really wish he would stop.
The minute you said 'herpetologist' I was pretty sure I knew who you were talking about - and looking at your link, I was right. Dude in question used to bring his snake show to our local primary school for maybe as much as a decade - and I must say, the presenters (not him personally, but people he'd trained) were extremely professional and competent every time, and I'm not aware of anyone having any problems with the show ever.

We also had them for the Taller Girl's birthday party, and I did research him online prior to allowing that, and discovered the loopiness, but decided that it probably didn't detract from the fact that he runs his displays competently - and in the event, that seemed to be true.

It seems to be a case of "smart, but not as smart as he THINKS he is" syndrome
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  #52  
Old 04-14-2016, 05:04 PM
Tamerlane Tamerlane is offline
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Hmmm...Dean Kenyon might qualify on the outskirts. He came to his Young Earth Creationism a decade after he was already an established biology professor ( granted not a particularly notable one ) and YEC is about as far out in crank land as it gets for most professional biologists.
  #54  
Old 04-14-2016, 05:26 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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Peter Duesberg (known for denying that HIV causes AIDS) is actually not representative of what the OP is asking about.

Duesberg has been a co-author on a fair number of research papers in recent years in decent journals, but based on a PubMed search, these are articles about genetics and carcinogenesis, not his crank beliefs about HIV. The only papers I can find regarding his HIV-doesn't-cause-AIDS thesis since 2003 were published in the Italian Journal of Anatomy and Embryology (not exactly a high-impact publication) and Medical Hypotheses (pretty much a junk journal that accepts a lot of goofball provocative ideas).
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Originally Posted by janeslogin
These two were disrespected for some period of time: Helicobacter pylori, previously Campylobacter pylori, is a gram-negative, microaerophilic bacterium found usually in the stomach. It was identified in 1982 by Australian scientists Barry Marshall and Robin Warren, who found that it was present in a person with chronic gastritis and gastric ulcers, conditions not previously believed to have a microbial cause.
Not a good example at all.

Marshall et al's proposition that H. pylori caused ulcers caused initial skepticism among many physicians/scientists, but followup work confirming their findings came out in fairly short order, so they were never consigned to the status of cranks like others mentioned in this thread.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/bacter...king_of_a_myth

Last edited by Jackmannii; 04-14-2016 at 05:27 PM.
  #55  
Old 04-14-2016, 05:32 PM
Guest-starring: Id! Guest-starring: Id! is offline
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These astrophysicists could be considered somewhat "alternative".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFTaiWInZ44
  #56  
Old 04-14-2016, 05:45 PM
Kropotkin Kropotkin is offline
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Thomas Gold?
  #57  
Old 04-14-2016, 07:14 PM
Hari Seldon Hari Seldon is offline
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Originally Posted by Grey View Post
You'd be wrong about String Theory. It's isn't crankish nonsense but it does get a lot of attention despite being just one approach amongst many to get past the standard model and tie the 4 fundamental forces together.

I was thinking of Roger Penrose and his attempts to tie consciousness to to quantum events in the brain. He's deeply respected in theoretical physics and mathematics but his views on consciousness are basically dismissed.
I have to agree on Penrose. Not just his ideas on consciousness, which cannot be refuted, but his claim that humans can solve problems that computers cannot, which is easy to refute. And he won't admit he is wrong.

Another example was Linus Pauling, double nobelist, who went off the deep end over vitamin C. I don't agree that Wakefield is an example. Total fraud.

In another era Newton spent a lot of time trying to turn lead into gold.
  #58  
Old 04-14-2016, 07:31 PM
Ignotus Ignotus is offline
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon View Post
I have to agree on Penrose. Not just his ideas on consciousness, which cannot be refuted, but his claim that humans can solve problems that computers cannot, which is easy to refute. And he won't admit he is wrong.

Another example was Linus Pauling, double nobelist, who went off the deep end over vitamin C. I don't agree that Wakefield is an example. Total fraud.

In another era Newton spent a lot of time trying to turn lead into gold.
I believe he was rather trying to turn iron into copper (useful for casting bronze cannons). And this was hardly crank or even fringe science in an age before Dalton and the atomic theory.
  #59  
Old 04-14-2016, 07:52 PM
bonzer bonzer is offline
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You know what, I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that pretty much every single bloody reply in this entire thread fails the OP's criteria. Every single last one of you.

Now I'll start by emphasising that I'm probably the Dope's fiercest adovcate that science is an utterly human activity. Just because something is scientific doesn't make it special. It's just as human as anything else.

So let's go. I'm skipping most of the humanities/biological suggestions and only a couple of the physical science ones.
  • Plate tectonics The arguments around mechanisms were utterly significant in the first half of the 20th century. But you then become in danger of ruling out Arthur Holmes as a mere crank. By all accounts he was always regarded as a major figure and was central to the determination of the age of the earth, several decades before plate tectonics became accepted. Not to mention his influential textbook.
  • String theory Yes, controversial amongst quantum field theorists (including myself), but not obviously pseudoscience. On the whole, sensible - if highly speculative - stuff.
  • Roger Penrose Kind of an example, but not terribly significant. Major figure in mathematical physics, but his stuff on conciousness is marginal. The latter got high profile publications initially, but these days? His other stuff gets paid attention to.
  • Roger Stritmatter Does anybody serious take him at all seriously? Other than the fellow cranks?
  • Linus Pauling How successful was Pauling in getting his Vitamin C stuff into the serious literature? And I speak as someone who once
    spent an afternoon in one of the US's main medical libraries checking whether Pauling intervened in my mother's death from cancer. (He didn't, but it was a minor matter of timing, rather than geography. I don't hold the connection against him.) From memory, Pauling either had other's lead on the key studies or he had stuff published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Which is a kind of bias in these matters: elected Fellows get to publish, or recommend, stuff without peer review. So rubbish endorsed by elderly, but eminent, cranks gets published in high profile journals.
  • James Lovelock As noted, a bit of an odd case.
  • Pons and Fleischmann Plus Jones, of course. Cold fusion was almost correctly universally regarded as absolute nonsense from the start. From memory, Jones got published in Nature, almost entirely as a curiosity. And, again from memory, was instantly dismissed as such. Pons and Fleischmann did get published in a specialist electrochemical journal. Regarded by physicists as chemists circling the wagons unconvincingly.
  • Fred Hoyle Massively emminent astrophysicist, while also generating any number of silly speculative ideas. But did any of the latter really
    infiltrate the professional journals? To some extent, I'd guess, but his major noncoventional stuff was utterly via his popular books.
  • Eric Laithwaite The Royal Institution Christmas Lectures are what everybody refers to. Surely minimal impact otherwise. And unconvincing.
  • Stephen Jay Gould I agree with Colibri that this is just generally silly.
  • Andrew Wakefield As noted, surely not being published anywhere sensible.
  • Peter Duesberg A sensible track record at one time. Not remotely regarded as sensible for some time.
  • Lord Kelvin and the age of the earth Lord Kelvin was not an idiot. The whole debate is rather more complicated than anybody who has read
    on the details will assume.
  • Kary Mullis A weirdo, while still undoubtedly deserving of his Nobel. Not sure there's much else to say on the matter in hand.
  • Lenard and Stark Evil Nazis. Their genuine contributions to physics are indeed probably somewhat overlooked as a result. Kind of difficult to big them up on that basis.
  • Lysenko A genuine candidate, in that, while utterly nuts and without merit, some contemporaries may have considered him serious, given the political conditions.
  • Mordehai Milgrom I seriously don't agree, but I'm not sure I'd consider him a crank, as such.
  • Halton Arp Long before his death, surely supposedly the poster boy for the astronomer being denied access to the usual telescopes and journals. Personally - as someone
    who'd read his stuff - I felt that entirely justified. But, no, he wasn't the crank getting published.
  • The Burbidges Were they actually being treated as particulary crankish? Very out there, certainly, but univerally regarded as having done good stuff in their time.

Last edited by bonzer; 04-14-2016 at 07:57 PM.
  #60  
Old 04-14-2016, 08:07 PM
TSBG TSBG is offline
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Originally Posted by bonzer View Post
You know what, I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that pretty much every single bloody reply in this entire thread fails the OP's criteria. Every single last one of you.

Now I'll start by emphasising that I'm probably the Dope's fiercest adovcate that science is an utterly human activity. Just because something is scientific doesn't make it special. It's just as human as anything else.

So let's go. I'm skipping most of the humanities/biological suggestions and only a couple of the physical science ones.
  • Plate tectonics The arguments around mechanisms were utterly significant in the first half of the 20th century. But you then become in danger of ruling out Arthur Holmes as a mere crank. By all accounts he was always regarded as a major figure and was central to the determination of the age of the earth, several decades before plate tectonics became accepted. Not to mention his influential textbook.
  • String theory Yes, controversial amongst quantum field theorists (including myself), but not obviously pseudoscience. On the whole, sensible - if highly speculative - stuff.
  • Roger Penrose Kind of an example, but not terribly significant. Major figure in mathematical physics, but his stuff on conciousness is marginal. The latter got high profile publications initially, but these days? His other stuff gets paid attention to.
  • Roger Stritmatter Does anybody serious take him at all seriously? Other than the fellow cranks?
  • Linus Pauling How successful was Pauling in getting his Vitamin C stuff into the serious literature? And I speak as someone who once
    spent an afternoon in one of the US's main medical libraries checking whether Pauling intervened in my mother's death from cancer. (He didn't, but it was a minor matter of timing, rather than geography. I don't hold the connection against him.) From memory, Pauling either had other's lead on the key studies or he had stuff published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Which is a kind of bias in these matters: elected Fellows get to publish, or recommend, stuff without peer review. So rubbish endorsed by elderly, but eminent, cranks gets published in high profile journals.
  • James Lovelock As noted, a bit of an odd case.
  • Pons and Fleischmann Plus Jones, of course. Cold fusion was almost correctly universally regarded as absolute nonsense from the start. From memory, Jones got published in Nature, almost entirely as a curiosity. And, again from memory, was instantly dismissed as such. Pons and Fleischmann did get published in a specialist electrochemical journal. Regarded by physicists as chemists circling the wagons unconvincingly.
  • Fred Hoyle Massively emminent astrophysicist, while also generating any number of silly speculative ideas. But did any of the latter really
    infiltrate the professional journals? To some extent, I'd guess, but his major noncoventional stuff was utterly via his popular books.
  • Eric Laithwaite The Royal Institution Christmas Lectures are what everybody refers to. Surely minimal impact otherwise. And unconvincing.
  • Stephen Jay Gould I agree with Colibri that this is just generally silly.
  • Andrew Wakefield As noted, surely not being published anywhere sensible.
  • Peter Duesberg A sensible track record at one time. Not remotely regarded as sensible for some time.
  • Lord Kelvin and the age of the earth Lord Kelvin was not an idiot. The whole debate is rather more complicated than anybody who has read
    on the details will assume.
  • Kary Mullis A weirdo, while still undoubtedly deserving of his Nobel. Not sure there's much else to say on the matter in hand.
  • Lenard and Stark Evil Nazis. Their genuine contributions to physics are indeed probably somewhat overlooked as a result. Kind of difficult to big them up on that basis.
  • Lysenko A genuine candidate, in that, while utterly nuts and without merit, some contemporaries may have considered him serious, given the political conditions.
  • Mordehai Milgrom I seriously don't agree, but I'm not sure I'd consider him a crank, as such.
  • Halton Arp Long before his death, surely supposedly the poster boy for the astronomer being denied access to the usual telescopes and journals. Personally - as someone
    who'd read his stuff - I felt that entirely justified. But, no, he wasn't the crank getting published.
  • The Burbidges Were they actually being treated as particulary crankish? Very out there, certainly, but univerally regarded as having done good stuff in their time.
No true crank scientist...?
  #61  
Old 04-14-2016, 09:24 PM
spamforbrains spamforbrains is offline
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Truly famous names can sometimes get bunk published.
Not anymore. Many of the really reputable journals have instituted "blind reviews" where the articles are stripped of any indication of who wrote them before they go out for peer review.
  #62  
Old 04-14-2016, 09:25 PM
wolfpup wolfpup is online now
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Originally Posted by bonzer View Post
You know what, I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that pretty much every single bloody reply in this entire thread fails the OP's criteria. Every single last one of you.

Now I'll start by emphasising that I'm probably the Dope's fiercest adovcate that science is an utterly human activity. Just because something is scientific doesn't make it special. It's just as human as anything else.

So let's go. I'm skipping most of the humanities/biological suggestions and only a couple of the physical science ones.
Hmmmm... I believe I provided about half a dozen examples in #49 that fully meet the OP's three stated criteria. You seem to be trying to make the point, after suitable disclaimers about the human failings of science, that none of the named crackpots has ever published a crackpot paper in a real journal. And you would be wrong.

My own disclaimer here is that I'm as strong a believer in the scientific method and the peer review process as anyone, but the process is not foolproof and it works not on the basis of perfect infallibility but on the basis of overall performance and accountability in the aggregate.

So again, most of the idiots I named have at least occasionally published crackpot papers with a climate-denialist angle. It's a very lucrative business so it's not surprising that those with no moral compass and/or ideological obsessions are attracted to it. A rather spectacular example is a paper on temperature reconstructions by our favorite dynamic duo, the previously mentioned Willie Soon and Sallie Baliunas. This thing was approved for publication in Climate Research, ostensibly to show that it was way warmer in the recent past, and was so bad that it created a scandal that raged on for months, and by the time it was over, half of the editorial board had resigned.

The very second post in this thread mentions the venerable climate denialist Bjorn Lomborg. To be fair, I'm not sure if he's ever published anything in a peer-reviewed journal, and he's a business prof and not a scientist, but he's written a book of lies about climate science for which he's been roundly chastised.

But then, his fellow Scandinavian Fredrik Charpentier Ljungqvist has definitely published papers on global temperature reconstructions. And what is Ljungqvist's expertise in this matter? Why, the man did his Ph.D. thesis a few years ago on the ideology of kingship in the medieval Scandinavian laws. (He was then employed as Ph.D. Student Ombudsman at the Stockholm University Student Union.) So he developed an interest in climate at the time, and did himself some paleoclimate reconstructions. Too bad he did them so incredibly badly, by using temperature proxies from known anomalous hot spots during the Medieval Warm Period, and by golly he concluded that temperatures were way warmer then than they are now!

Then there are journals whose editors and reviewers are not well qualified to referee papers because the subject matter is tangential to their primary subject. And so it was that another one of our previously mentioned heroes, Roy Spencer -- oh, excuse me, Roy Spencer, Ph.D., as he always refers to himself -- published a climate paper in the journal Remote Sensing that, again, was so irredeemably bad that the journal editor was forced to resign.

And then there are second-rate, low-impact journals that just plain have low standards in which morons can get published. One example is Energy & Environment (not be confused with Energy & Environmental Sciences, which is a real journal). Here is what Wikipedia says about it -- pay attention to the bolded parts:
According to a 2011 article in The Guardian, Gavin Schmidt and Roger A. Pielke, Jr. said that E&E has had low standards of peer review and little impact. In addition, Ralph Keeling criticized a paper in the journal which claimed that CO2 levels were above 400 ppm in 1825, 1857 and 1942, writing in a letter to the editor, "Is it really the intent of E&E to provide a forum for laundering pseudo-science?"

When asked about the publication in the Spring of 2003 of a revised version of the paper at the center of the Soon and Baliunas controversy, Boehmer-Christiansen said, "I'm following my political agenda -- a bit, anyway. But isn't that the right of the editor?"

Part of the journal's official mission statement reads: "E&E has consistently striven to publish many ‘voices’ and to challenge conventional wisdoms. Perhaps more so than other European energy journal, the editor has made E&E a forum for more sceptical analyses of ‘climate change’ and the advocated solutions".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_%26_Environment

Last edited by wolfpup; 04-14-2016 at 09:29 PM.
  #63  
Old 04-14-2016, 10:00 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonzer View Post
  • Lord Kelvin and the age of the earth Lord Kelvin was not an idiot. The whole debate is rather more complicated than anybody who has read
    on the details will assume.
I'm sure you merely typoed this and meant to write, "Lord Kelvin was not an idiot. The whole debate is rather more complicated than anybody who hasn't read on the details will assume."

I agree with that.

I disagree with the comment on Hoyle. A simple search on Google Scholar shows any number of papers in serious journals on steady state cosmology and panspermia from the 90s or later. Considering that he and Halton Arp co-authored a paper against the big bang, it's hard to write him off either.

Similarly, I can find articles written by Linus Pauling on megadoses of Vitamin C and cancer from the last decade of his life. Nutrition Reviews, A Proposition: Megadoses of Vitamin C are Valuable in the Treatment of Cancer, 1986. Another with an impossibly long title from the Journal of Orthomolecular Medicine in 1990.

Most of the names mentioned shouldn't be on the list. But your dismissal of them all without cites or research doesn't do your argument any good.
  #64  
Old 04-15-2016, 12:38 AM
Lorne Armstrong Lorne Armstrong is offline
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I know this isn't exactly what the OP was asking for, but how about Patricia Cornwell, a respected writer, publishing that nonsense that Walter Sickert was Jack the Ripper.
  #65  
Old 04-15-2016, 06:42 AM
SmartAlecCat SmartAlecCat is offline
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Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
There are tons of examples in the ever-popular and lucrative field of climate change denial, literally far too many to list.[...]
It seems to me that the Seitz and the Lindzen types, actual scientists who cynically and dishonestly abused their reputations to promote falsehoods, are the most dangerous of the quacks because they not only mislead the public but put science itself into disrepute.
In Merchants of Doubt, Oreskes and Conway have a great description of how some scientists perform this.
  #66  
Old 04-15-2016, 05:31 PM
Busy Scissors Busy Scissors is offline
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Originally Posted by Some Call Me... Tim View Post
Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, depending on how you define recent. They managed to publish by inertia after nearly everyone had concluded their Cold Fusion was woo.

Oh, and nobel prize winning physicist Brian Josephson now believes in lots of hardcore woo including parapsychology, but he's not now publishing in the same peer reviewed areas as his earlier, more respectable, work.
Josephson really is a singular example in the modern era. To be totally brilliant, conducting truly seminal work in your 20s, and then just turn around and show your arse to the entire scientific community. It's sort of awesome in that respect, but at heart it's sad - an exceptional mind losing sight of the art of the soluble, and basically wasting his time for 40 years.
  #67  
Old 04-15-2016, 09:08 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Busy Scissors View Post
Josephson really is a singular example in the modern era. To be totally brilliant, conducting truly seminal work in your 20s, and then just turn around and show your arse to the entire scientific community. It's sort of awesome in that respect, but at heart it's sad - an exceptional mind losing sight of the art of the soluble, and basically wasting his time for 40 years.
Yeah. I mean if you are older (Linus Pauling was in his 70's when he went into Vitamin C therapy, but I say that wasnt quite crackpot) things happen. If your work is brilliant until youre 70, then you get kinda crackpotish, you're forgiven, in my book.
  #68  
Old 04-15-2016, 10:23 PM
lynne-42 lynne-42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Frylock View Post
I am trying to advocate for an idea a lot of people think is woo but which there _are_ a handful of relevant serious respected scholars who say the idea should at least be taken seriously. So I'm trying to show this idea is in a better position than other "crank" ideas in at least that regard. I hope I'm right.
I am following this thread with great interest. I am also trying to advocate for an idea which places me in the woo category for anyone who has not read it or heard my talks. But of those who have heard it over the last 8 years, I have not a single detractor.

I stumbled over a new theory for the purpose of Stonehenge and other monuments in the process of writing a book on indigenous knowledge of animals. Yes, there is a link! Unfortunately, it takes a bit of explaining which is a pain because I can't do nice groovy sound bites.

I was doing a PhD as a science writer in the English program at LaTrobe University, Australia. This idea was a major distraction from my nice comfortable topic, and publishing offer on the table. I tried academic journals who would not touch it. None of the rejections could identify any fault, which I would have happily accepted and got back onto the book I was supposed to be writing. The archaeologists at my own university would not talk to me, despite requests from my supervisor and their review of a paper sent to them in which they could not fault the theory.

In the end, I converted to an academic PhD and the university had internationally renown archaeologists and an anthropologist examine it - my background includes neither of those fields. It passed well. I then submitted a proposal to Cambridge University Press who accepted it immediately and published it last year. No reviews yet. It is very interdisciplinary which makes reviews hard to get.

I rewrote it all again for my original mainstream publisher, Allen & Unwin, and it comes out in a couple of months here in Australia. Rights have already sold to the US and UK. The manuscript has been endorsed by archaeologists here, the US and by a leading Stonehenge expert. Those comments are all offered for the public endorsement of the book.

Soon, it will go out into the big world.

So like you, Frylock, I am advocating for a 'woo' idea, but the academic process of review, slow and tedious as it has been, has served me well. Lots of tears on the way, but on reflection, I would not do it any other way.
  #69  
Old 04-16-2016, 09:44 AM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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The US Amazon site has three five-star reviews of it, Lynne.

When will your mainstream book be published in the US?
  #70  
Old 04-16-2016, 10:29 AM
bonzer bonzer is offline
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Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
Hmmmm... I believe I provided about half a dozen examples in #49 that fully meet the OP's three stated criteria. You seem to be trying to make the point, after suitable disclaimers about the human failings of science, that none of the named crackpots has ever published a crackpot paper in a real journal. And you would be wrong.
I probably should have included climate science in with the “humanities/biological” exclusions; it's an area where I've little feel for what's a reasonable journal and what are essentially fronts for garbage.
But there are obvious problems even with your examples there.
Quote:
Another interesting one is Richard Lindzen, among the more prestigious of the quacks because he was actually a reputable atmospheric physicist at MIT until his retirement a few years ago. His modus operandi was simple, and was basically modeled on Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. In the scientific domain he would publish (usually) reputable research, but his public persona was that of a staunch denialist. He would say things in public speeches and op-eds in papers like the Wall Street Journal that were scientifically laughable, but because he had a long string of legitimate publications and was a well-known academic -- at MIT, no less -- his words were perceived by many to carry a credibility that had absolutely no justification.
In pursuing a twin-track strategy of publishing sensible stuff in mainstream journals and then pushing crap elsewhere, Lindzen very explicitly fails to meet the OP's third criterion.
Freeman Dyson's an even worse example, since he's never published anything that could be considered actual climate science. Nor has he, as far as I know, ever tried to. That doesn't prevent him expressing doubts in interviews or his NYRB reviews, but again he's very, very clearly not an example who qualifies for the OP's third criterion.


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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
I disagree with the comment on Hoyle. A simple search on Google Scholar shows any number of papers in serious journals on steady state cosmology and panspermia from the 90s or later. Considering that he and Halton Arp co-authored a paper against the big bang, it's hard to write him off either.
Hoyle was immensely prolific in his retirement, but there are patterns in what he was and was not getting published in mainstream journals. His biographer Jane Gregory notes that it was far easier for him to publish on interstellar dust in this period than on cosmology (Fred Hoyle's Universe, OUP, 2005, p331). The former papers were largely couched in terms that avoided the “diseases from space” and panspermia conclusions that he drew from them in his popular books. And goodness knows he spent a lot of time complaining about being shut out of journals. His other biographer, Simon Mitton, who was also the commissioning editor on his last technical book, has a first-hand account of the nervousness within the CUP about publishing that.
Then there's the whole issue of him publishing his papers on Archaeopteryx in the British Journal of Photography. Now I'm sure that's a fine publication, but I'll hazard that that's the only time they've carried a series of research articles on palaeontology. (Ironically, Hoyle blamed the ensuing media firestorm on the magazine having drummed up the publicity.)
Even the paper co-authored with Arp is a revealing exception. Arp, Burbidge, Hoyle, Narlikar and Wickramasinghe, ''The Extragalatic Universe: An Alternate View'', Nature, 1990, 358, 807 was not published as a remotely normal paper. In publishing it, Nature was acting in much the same tradition that had seen them publish Targ and Puthoff on remote viewing in 1974 and Benveniste on the structure of water in 1988: papers that the journal thought were unpublishable on normal grounds, but where the editors relished the newsworthy fuss they would make. Arp et al was accompanied by a disclaimer signed by John Maddox, the editor, noting that the referees had rejected it, but that two of them had found it interesting, so he was creating a new category of papers to be called “Hypothesis”, separate from peer-reviewed letters or reviews. It was also surely a factor that Maddox himself had been a steady state believer who was never reconciled to the Big Bang. I'm not sure there ever were any other “Hypothesis” papers carried by Nature.
  #71  
Old 04-16-2016, 10:46 AM
jasg jasg is online now
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In 1923 J. Harlen Bretz theorized that the Channeled Scablands of eastern Washington were caused by flooding. He was ridiculed as a 'catastrophist' by most geologists and was not vindicated until 1942 when James Pardee published his findings on Ice Age Lakes.
  #72  
Old 04-16-2016, 06:24 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
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Originally Posted by lynne-42 View Post
I stumbled over a new theory for the purpose of Stonehenge and other monuments in the process of writing a book on indigenous knowledge of animals. Yes, there is a link!
Did you mean to provide a link here?
  #73  
Old 04-16-2016, 06:26 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
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BTW I guess there's no real reason to be coy here--the purported woo I think is plausible is the idea that Jesus was not an actual, historical figure.
  #74  
Old 04-16-2016, 08:12 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
The US Amazon site has three five-star reviews of it, Lynne.

When will your mainstream book be published in the US?
what is the title?
  #75  
Old 04-16-2016, 09:50 PM
Some Call Me... Tim Some Call Me... Tim is offline
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...
Pons and Fleischmann Plus Jones, of course. Cold fusion was almost correctly universally regarded as absolute nonsense from the start. From memory, Jones got published in Nature, almost entirely as a curiosity. And, again from memory, was instantly dismissed as such. Pons and Fleischmann did get published in a specialist electrochemical journal. Regarded by physicists as chemists circling the wagons unconvincingly.
...
Good point about Jones, though it turned out they were talking about somewhat different things when they talked about cold fusion. To me, in that instance Jones was more just arguing for a hypothesis that turned out to be incorrect, whereas Pons and Fleischmann crossed the line into woo and hype. Your mileage may vary on that judgement, of course. On the other hand, Jones went entirely off the rails after 9/11...

However, I must disagree with your characterization of the response. I saw a talk by Nate Lewis about a year after the whole thing hit, and he and his group had started first simply intending to replicate, then nailing down how the incorrect results were made (and at least one plot obviously faked.) His entire group stopped everything else and spent a couple of months on this, as did many other groups across the country. This was not done casually as a curiosity. Pons and Fleischmann were well respected before this hit, after all. Heck, they testified before the US congress... this does not match your characterization as being universally regarded as nonsense from the start.

Heck, Pons got a standing ovation from an audience of 7000 at that spring's ACS meeting.
  #76  
Old 04-16-2016, 10:29 PM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is online now
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I probably should have included climate science in with the “humanities/biological” exclusions; it's an area where I've little feel for what's a reasonable journal and what are essentially fronts for garbage.
But there are obvious problems even with your examples there.

In pursuing a twin-track strategy of publishing sensible stuff in mainstream journals and then pushing crap elsewhere, Lindzen very explicitly fails to meet the OP's third criterion.
Freeman Dyson's an even worse example, since he's never published anything that could be considered actual climate science. Nor has he, as far as I know, ever tried to. That doesn't prevent him expressing doubts in interviews or his NYRB reviews, but again he's very, very clearly not an example who qualifies for the OP's third criterion.
Well, one thing one can say is that indeed it is hard to pass crack work in important science journals. But wolfpup also mentioned others like Soon and Bailunas, that are seen by many of their peers as having published crank papers.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nat...cUJ/story.html
Quote:
Working in close coordination with conservative groups in Washington, he passionately seeks to debunk the growing consensus on global warming before audiences of policymakers, at academic seminars and conferences, and in the media.

Polar bears? Not threatened. Sea level? Exaggerated danger. Carbon dioxide? Great for trees. Warming planet? Caused by natural fluctuation in the sun’s energy.

Soon’s views are considered way outside the scientific mainstream, which makes him a prophet or a pariah, depending on which side you ask. Some say his work simply doesn’t hold up to scrutiny, that his data are cherry-picked to fit his thesis.
In the case of Lindzen many of his papers were actually plausible, but new research has put, for example, his ideas about the iris effect into the unlikely area, that Lindzen still pushes papers like that as being still valid is where the crank happens.

https://www.skepticalscience.com/inf...e-feedback.htm

You are correct about Dyson not having peer reviewed papers about climate change. But that does not mean that he is not a crank.

wolfpup also pointed at Dr Seitz, who did manage to publish a paper critical of computer models, but he was shown wrong nowadays about the satellite data and was grossly wrong about not seeing the arctic amplification.

http://www.desmogblog.com/frederick-seitz

So, I have to say here that you can have Dyson as a non expert that did not publish, but not much else.
  #77  
Old 04-16-2016, 11:13 PM
lynne-42 lynne-42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
The US Amazon site has three five-star reviews of it, Lynne.

When will your mainstream book be published in the US?
Oooops. Thank you! The academic mind-set is too ingrained. I was only thinking of formal reviews in journals. Much appreciated!

The mainstream book, The Memory Code, will be published in the US by Pegasus Books early next year. Atlantic Books are publishing in the UK about the same time. Audible have bought the audio rights, and I imagine that will be early next year as well.

I am not in touch with the others yet - it all goes through my publisher here in Australia, Allen & Unwin. It goes to press here on Monday and hits the book shops June 22. Only a few more months after 8 years obsessive work! Thank you for the interest.

Lynne
  #78  
Old 04-16-2016, 11:14 PM
lynne-42 lynne-42 is offline
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Did you mean to provide a link here?
I am not sure if that is OK in terms of protocol. It would be advertising, wouldn't it?
  #79  
Old 04-16-2016, 11:16 PM
lynne-42 lynne-42 is offline
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what is the title?
The academic book is Knowledge and Power in Prehistoric Societies (Cambridge University Press) and the mainstream book is The Memory Code (Allen & Unwin, AUS, Pegasus Books, US and Atlantic Books, UK)
  #80  
Old 04-17-2016, 01:44 AM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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The academic book is Knowledge and Power in Prehistoric Societies (Cambridge University Press) and the mainstream book is The Memory Code (Allen & Unwin, AUS, Pegasus Books, US and Atlantic Books, UK)
The first one is added to my Wish list.
  #81  
Old 04-17-2016, 02:25 AM
lynne-42 lynne-42 is offline
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The first one is added to my Wish list.
Thank you! It is very expensive, though. The mainstream one will be far more reasonable.

Last edited by lynne-42; 04-17-2016 at 02:25 AM.
  #82  
Old 04-17-2016, 03:37 AM
scoots scoots is offline
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I stumbled over a new theory for the purpose of Stonehenge and other monuments in the process of writing a book on indigenous knowledge of animals. Yes, there is a link! Unfortunately, it takes a bit of explaining which is a pain because I can't do nice groovy sound bites.
It sounds interesting - like the kind of thing I would read. Is the idea that the shape of Stonehenge encodes certain information (animal behaviour, astronomy etc) in order to preserve that information for the future?

If so, which things are you suggesting it encodes?
  #83  
Old 04-17-2016, 03:54 AM
Aspidistra Aspidistra is offline
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BTW I guess there's no real reason to be coy here--the purported woo I think is plausible is the idea that Jesus was not an actual, historical figure.
The fact that that one's been batted around for about a hundred and sixty years without becoming mainstream is probably going to make your task considerably harder.
  #84  
Old 04-17-2016, 04:49 AM
lynne-42 lynne-42 is offline
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It sounds interesting - like the kind of thing I would read. Is the idea that the shape of Stonehenge encodes certain information (animal behaviour, astronomy etc) in order to preserve that information for the future?

If so, which things are you suggesting it encodes?
I really wish I could explain simply. I apologise for the vagueness. Stonehenge has to be considered in terms of the simple stone circle which it was for 500 years before the big guys (the sarsens) in the middle arrived. The circle is probably simply because knowledge is often stored in a cyclic form in non-literate cultures. Rows and other shapes also work. It is the sequence of stones that is critical, each individual.

The theory is all based around the most effective memory method known, usually referred to as the method of loci, or memory palaces. That method is attributed to the ancient Greeks and still used by contemporary memory champions. My research has shown that all non-literate cultures also use this method and it can be shown that it has been used in Australia for far longer than the age of monuments such as Stonehenge. Using physical locations for memory is a result of the human brain structure, as shown by the Nobel Prize (2014) winning medical research.

The information I am arguing is stored is all the practical stuff, including a great deal on which survival depends. I acknowledge there is a spiritual domain, but my focus is entirely on the way non-literate elders can memorise an entire field guide to the plants and animals - the Navajo have been shown to have a memorised classification of over 700 insects alone! Then navigation charts and extraordinary methods to cross oceans, deserts, through forests and even on moving, featureless ice. Complex genealogies, laws, trade negotiations, resource management, geology ... the list goes on and on. My research question was (academically worded): how the hell do they remember so much stuff?

It is all to do with recognising song, dance, story, mythology and music as forms of mnemonic aids. There is a whole body of research on this called 'primary orality'. I then looked for the physical indicators of the memory methods - landscape, features of performance spaces and handheld devices. There is a universal pattern. I am using some of these devices now and they are incredibly effective.

I then found those indicators in the landscape of monuments built by small scale oral cultures in the transition from mobile (not nomadic) hunter gatherers to small settled communities. Once you get individual wealth and a warrior class, my theory tends to break down. It is also when the monuments are abandoned. Increasingly restricted societies are a feature of early settlement as are seen widely in the Americas and Africa. That's when the sarsens come into play at Stonehenge and the public space is created at Durrington Walls.

The resistance for the academic domain was because I could not explain with sufficient support in a paper. It took a book. Plus they were (rightly so) suspicious of someone from way outside the domain making such claims. The academic process does allow for such claims, but not overnight!
  #85  
Old 04-17-2016, 04:55 AM
lynne-42 lynne-42 is offline
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BTW I guess there's no real reason to be coy here--the purported woo I think is plausible is the idea that Jesus was not an actual, historical figure.
I'd be coy in many places, but that is why I like the Straight Dope so much. No need to here. How are you going about your research? At a university? Independent researcher?

How are you 'advocating'?

Last edited by lynne-42; 04-17-2016 at 04:56 AM.
  #86  
Old 04-17-2016, 01:20 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Aspidistra View Post
The fact that that one's been batted around for about a hundred and sixty years without becoming mainstream is probably going to make your task considerably harder.
But then the story of Jesus has been around for c.2000 years, so it's actually a pretty recent idea. For some reason, when the Christians were giving them problems, the Romans never thought to claim that there was no such person as Jesus. Likely as they knew there had been.
  #87  
Old 04-17-2016, 04:13 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
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Originally Posted by lynne-42 View Post
I'd be coy in many places, but that is why I like the Straight Dope so much. No need to here. How are you going about your research? At a university? Independent researcher?

How are you 'advocating'?
Oh haha nothing as serious or involved as what you've accomplished. I'm just doing casual internet discussion/debate stuff.

I have ideas of writing a pop-level book about maybe, but that's just a notion in the back of my head.
  #88  
Old 04-17-2016, 04:49 PM
Ignotus Ignotus is offline
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For some reason, when the Christians were giving them problems, the Romans never thought to claim that there was no such person as Jesus. Likely as they knew there had been.
OT: Would such knowledge, if it existed, really have stopped them from claiming otherwise, had they believed it would serve their purpose? Feeding Christians to the lions was OK, but not touting lies?
  #89  
Old 04-17-2016, 05:25 PM
Frylock Frylock is offline
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I suggest a new thread, in GD, would be more appropriate for discussing the topic of Jesus's historical existence.
  #90  
Old 04-17-2016, 05:55 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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Gilles-Eric Seralini is still cranking about publications about alleged GMO-related harms, long after his original "groundbreaking" study was widely discredited in the scientific community, retracted by the journal it was published in (and later republished elsewhere, to the accompaniment of further criticism and catcalls).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Séralini_affair

So Seralini would amply qualify on the basis of what his colleagues in related fields overwhelmingly regard as crankery and poorly conducted research, yet he manages to retain some academic standing and continues to get published (albeit largely in low impact/open access journals).
  #91  
Old 04-18-2016, 10:51 AM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Originally Posted by lynne-42 View Post
I really wish I could explain simply. I apologise for the vagueness. Stonehenge has to be considered in terms of the simple stone circle which it was for 500 years before the big guys (the sarsens) in the middle arrived. The circle is probably simply because knowledge is often stored in a cyclic form in non-literate cultures. Rows and other shapes also work. It is the sequence of stones that is critical, each individual.
Wow, Lynne. I'm ashamed of you for proselytizing your crazy views on the Dope. Why don't you admit the truth about Stonehenge? It's given by a guy with a real doctorate that I'm sure is more admired in his academic circles than yours is.

Quote:
Televangelist Jim Bakker invited Dr. Dennis Lindsay on to his program on Wednesday to discuss Lindsay’s latest discovery in the realm of Creation Science: the truth behind Stonehenge.

Hold on to your hats: Stonehenge, it turns out, was built by giants who were created by Satan.

Lindsay told Bakker that these giants were tools of the devil, who seeks to destroy Israel because “he’s out to destroy God’s creation and his whole plan of redemption and contaminate the human race.”

But Satan wants to “have his own seed and make his own family,” Lindsay explained, and so he created a race of giants who would attack Israel.

“He build his little squatter’s hut up there on the Temple Mount, you know that temple, because he knows what the Bible says about that place,” he said. “I weaved through why and what is the evidence for giant beings on this earth. We all know about Stonehenge, right? That’s just one of hundreds and hundreds of gigantic places around the world that testify that some sort of supernatural power or giants were involved in its construction.”

Last edited by Exapno Mapcase; 04-18-2016 at 10:52 AM.
  #92  
Old 04-18-2016, 12:35 PM
Mr. Miskatonic Mr. Miskatonic is offline
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Jacques Benveniste was promoting homeopathy and was technically published in Nature but with a lot of caveats (much like Targ & Puthoff's work with Uri Geller some years before). When push came to shove his methods were found severely wanting. He complained about the additional protocols but his reputation was trashed.

From the stories of how his lab was run, his credibility ruin was well earned.

ETA: This comic version has part of the tale

Last edited by Mr. Miskatonic; 04-18-2016 at 12:37 PM.
  #93  
Old 04-18-2016, 01:20 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Wow, Lynne. I'm ashamed of you for proselytizing your crazy views on the Dope. Why don't you admit the truth about Stonehenge? It's given by a guy with a real doctorate that I'm sure is more admired in his academic circles than yours is.
Perhaps a liberal sprinkling of smilies might help this post, Lynne is new here, she might now know you're joshing with her.
  #94  
Old 04-18-2016, 01:38 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Perhaps a liberal sprinkling of smilies might help this post, Lynne is new here, she might now know you're joshing with her.
She has a join date of 2003.
  #95  
Old 04-18-2016, 02:05 PM
markn+ markn+ is online now
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You may want to review the responses when very similar questions were asked in 2010 and 2015:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=582266

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=764878

--Mark
  #96  
Old 04-18-2016, 03:19 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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Lionel Milgrom seems to fit the OP's paradigm.

Milgrom was (apparently) a long-time respected researcher/lecturer in chemistry, specializing in porphyrins. He held a faculty position at Imperial College London before getting into homeopathy in a big way (he was convinced that homeopathic treatments helped his partner's pneumonia, according to Wikipedia).

Subsequently Milgrom (to the eye-rolling and/or hilarity of his colleagues) began publishing incredibly esoteric articles attempting to explain homeopathy on the basis of "quantum field theory" or "quantum entanglement", interspersed with attacks on skeptics who he termed "new fundamentalists". His latest paper listed in PubMed is entitled "The vital force "reincarnated": modeling entelechy as a quantized spinning gyroscopic metaphor for integrated medicine", emphasizing the difficulty one has in dismissing garbage that is dressed up in such impenetrable verbiage.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 04-18-2016 at 03:20 PM.
  #97  
Old 04-18-2016, 04:39 PM
lynne-42 lynne-42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Wow, Lynne. I'm ashamed of you for proselytizing your crazy views on the Dope. Why don't you admit the truth about Stonehenge? It's given by a guy with a real doctorate that I'm sure is more admired in his academic circles than yours is.
[Hangs head in shame]. I shall withdraw my book immediately. It only went to the printers yesterday, so I should be able to stop it. Oh well, so much for eight years work.

P.S. Thank you, DrDeth, for worrying that I would take this seriously. Much appreciated. You are right, Exapno Mapcase, I've been on SD a long time and get it (most of the time).

Last edited by lynne-42; 04-18-2016 at 04:43 PM.
  #98  
Old 04-18-2016, 06:53 PM
Surreal Surreal is offline
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Again, you are quoting a newspaper report rather than the opinion of Gould among actual scientists.
The article I linked to quoted Ralph Holloway, who said Gould was a charlatan. Here's a few quotes from Robert Trivers, one of the most influential evolutionary theorists of all time, who appears to agree with Holloway's assessment:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...putation-fraud

Quote:
Many of us theoretical biologists who knew Stephen Jay Gould personally thought he was something of an intellectual fraud because he had a talent for coining terms that promised more than they could deliver, while claiming exactly the opposite.
Quote:
As would prove usual, Steve missed the larger interesting science by embracing a self-serving fantasy.
Quote:
What is worse—and more shocking—is that Steve’s errors are very extensive and the bias very serious. A careful reanalysis shows that his target is unblemished while his own attack is biased in all the ways Gould attributes to his victim.
  #99  
Old 04-18-2016, 07:32 PM
Haldurson Haldurson is offline
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James Lovelock is held in extremely highly regard - on account of his obvious brilliance and achievements as a scientist outside of the 'system' - but I'm not sure how seriously his Gaia hypotheses are taken. Suspect they might be referred to as 'crank theories' had a less distinguished scientist rolled them out.
Part of his problem with his Gaia hypotheses (maybe not the whole problem with it) was that some people saw it has having religious connotations, that the earth is LITERALLY a living organism. But Lovelock probably did go a bit too far in his book, and something that should have been no more than an observation became a 'theory'.

FYI -- Lynn Margulis, one of Lovelocks' main 'disciples' visited my school, Caltech, from scripps to be one of 4 professors of an earth history class (it was a multi-disciplinary class taken by both geo and bio majors). The disdain that the geo professors held her in was palpable. I wrote a little 4-part story about an 'adventure' our class had many years ago: https://haldurson.wordpress.com/2016...ory-chapter-1/
  #100  
Old 04-18-2016, 09:57 PM
Arrendajo Arrendajo is offline
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Well, there was Isaac Newton and all that alchemy crap.
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