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Old 07-29-2016, 08:32 AM
Rhythmdvl Rhythmdvl is offline
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Practical implications of Trumps recent 'joke' about Russians finding Hillary's email?

His casual, flippant statements about not honouring NATO treaties could have real-world implications. It could easily embolden Russia to pull a Ukraine on a NATO ally.

Blustery inanities about renegotiating public debt could easily result in major financial repercussions through credit agency downgrades, divestment in US notes, etc.

There is a host of examples where his troll-based verbal recklessness could have dramatic, severe consequences.

His comments about Russia releasing the missing emails are repugnant for a number of reasons. But stopping well short of actual collusion or other shenanigans, other than being an affront to the standards of decorum held by major party candidates and the office, what practical harm could such comments lead to? Practical consequences that differ from his general penchant for trolling the media?

Is it plausible that Russia or other state actor would not have committed further acts of espionage but for his statements? How are charges of 'recklessness' and 'irresponsible' being supported? Charges that imply these comments rise to a different tier than his usual 4chan-inspired tomfuckkery?
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  #2  
Old 07-29-2016, 08:50 AM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
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I think that the Russians realize that it was a very bad joke.
  #3  
Old 07-29-2016, 09:01 AM
Chisquirrel Chisquirrel is offline
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It may not enable them to do it again, but it makes them a lot less likely to worry about consequences the next time around. It's not what he's done, it's that he's advocating something entirely reprehensible for a POTUS candidate.
  #4  
Old 07-29-2016, 09:03 AM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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The Russians also aren't waiting on anyone's permission to spy on the U.S. I would say "reckless" and "irresponsible" can be supported because even as a joke it shows a little too blasé an attitude towards the issue. Even as a joke, we can all be pretty sure the sentiment behind it is he wouldn't be sad if the Russians really did find and release more emails i.e. wouldn't be sad if Russia actively meddled in a U.S. election.
  #5  
Old 07-29-2016, 09:07 AM
Tom Tildrum Tom Tildrum is offline
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Either the Russians already have Clinton's deleted email, or they don't; they're not going to be able to go get it now. Trump was yet again calling out what he portrays as Clinton's recklessness in using an insecure private server. The Clinton campaign of course wants to turn this back on Trump, but of course there would be no issue but for her choices.
  #6  
Old 07-29-2016, 09:12 AM
DonLogan DonLogan is offline
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The nuance of it is that he's OK with anyone hacking a political opponent and OK with a foreign government doing it. Given his posturing and the "lock her up" chants at the RNC, the implications are that he's capable of doing the same or worse to political opponents.
  #7  
Old 07-29-2016, 09:12 AM
Bridget Burke Bridget Burke is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Tildrum View Post
Either the Russians already have Clinton's deleted email, or they don't; they're not going to be able to go get it now. Trump was yet again calling out what he portrays as Clinton's recklessness in using an insecure private server. The Clinton campaign of course wants to turn this back on Trump, but of course there would be no issue but for her choices.
Add his "joke" to the Democratic party hacking--probably done by Russia & released as the DNC began. And his willingness to disassemble NATO for Putin's convenience. And his long financial links to Russia. And his admiration of Putin....

Fine candidate you picked there!
  #8  
Old 07-29-2016, 09:13 AM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is offline
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At that, there's Colbert's take on this: building a wall? Like, a literal wall, thousands of miles long, and it just got ten feet higher, and Mexico is going to pay for it? I was clearly joking! Nobody in their right mind would believe I could make that happen! It was pure performance art! Remember when I made the obviously-outlandish claim about banning all Muslims from entering the country? You all got that that was a joke, so why play coy now? Hmm? What's that? Oh, come on; there's no way you took that seriously!
  #9  
Old 07-29-2016, 11:21 AM
Son of a Rich Son of a Rich is offline
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I didn't realize Trump had much of a sense of humor.
  #10  
Old 07-29-2016, 11:36 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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I didn't realize Trump had much of a sense of humor.
I'm still laughing about that one where he said he was running for president.
  #11  
Old 07-29-2016, 11:45 AM
Son of a Rich Son of a Rich is offline
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I'm still laughing about that one where he said he was running for president.
I laugh lest I cry.
  #12  
Old 07-29-2016, 11:45 AM
Drunky Smurf Drunky Smurf is offline
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
he wouldn't be sad if the Russians really did find and release more emails i.e. wouldn't be sad if Russia actively meddled in a U.S. election.
So what. If Hillary hadn't hidden these emails from the government then there'd be no emails to "hack".

Everyone needs to come to reality and understand that every country that can spy is spying on everyone else. That includes cyber-spying and hacking.

Hell we hacked Mexico's Presidents email.

Quote:
The NSA also has eavesdropped on the Mexican government and hacked the public e-mail account of former President Felipe Calderon and his presidency's e-mail domain that also was used by Cabinet members, according to German news magazine Der Spiegel.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/30/us/spy...ybody-does-it/


Russia and China have been spying and hacking us for as long as they've had the capabilities. No matter what Trump has said or will say is going to change what they do.

The only thing that has and will come out of this is the media and Democratic leaders pretending to outraged by this to whip up the base.
  #13  
Old 07-29-2016, 11:54 AM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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Originally Posted by Drunky Smurf View Post
So what. If Hillary hadn't hidden these emails from the government then there'd be no emails to "hack".

Everyone needs to come to reality and understand that every country that can spy is spying on everyone else. That includes cyber-spying and hacking.

Hell we hacked Mexico's Presidents email.
So we should be fine with Russian hackers because it's her fault anyways and besides we do it to? That's not how it works. His own VP candidate said, at almost the same time Trump was joking about it, that there should be serious consequences for whoever did it.
  #14  
Old 07-29-2016, 12:08 PM
Fuzzy_wuzzy Fuzzy_wuzzy is offline
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
So we should be fine with Russian hackers because it's her fault anyways and besides we do it to? That's not how it works. His own VP candidate said, at almost the same time Trump was joking about it, that there should be serious consequences for whoever did it.
Im not sure there is an inherent contradiction here. I for one welcome these type of hacks and data dumps, but I would fully expect(and support) the US state to prosecute any who are guilty of such hacks.
  #15  
Old 07-29-2016, 12:11 PM
JohnT JohnT is offline
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Well, Trump calls for new information to be released, Wikileaks promptly responds with a data dump of DNC phone calls. That's one obvious practical item that's already happened.
  #16  
Old 07-29-2016, 12:12 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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I hate to break it to you but that is indeed an inherent contradiction. But that's fine if you want to do that.
  #17  
Old 07-29-2016, 12:21 PM
QuickSilver QuickSilver is offline
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The Democratic party base doesn't need whipping or further convincing that Trump is a buffoon. Likewise, the die hard Trump supporters will not be budged.

The unintended practical implications of this make it harder for those on the margins of Trump's supporters to vote for him. That's not to say they will rush to vote for Hillary, but they might just be more inclined to stay home come November. The other good thing to come out of Trump's inability to keep his feet out of his mouth is give the GOP leaders insomnia and ulcers they so richly deserve.
  #18  
Old 07-29-2016, 12:25 PM
Corry El Corry El is offline
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No practical effect beyond whatever the comment or Democratic counterspin might have on the election. The comment calls attention again to Clinton's careless handling of classified info. But maybe the D counterspin of Trump as 'traitor' might have some effect. I doubt either is significant though.

The effect on any government sponsored hacking attempts is zero by any common sense, and I doubt a causal connection between wikileaks' activities and anything Trump says.

Trump's comments on NATO, especially the ones about not necessarily helping the Baltics against Russian aggression (as the US is treaty bound to do) could have an effect on Russia. It could be a reason for them to take more risk of exposure in meddling in the US election to help Trump. And it would be part, though only part, of the information they used to judge Trump's intentions if he wins. It's in contrast to the 'I hope they find the emails' which is a practical zero outside the world of political spin.

Last edited by Corry El; 07-29-2016 at 12:27 PM.
  #19  
Old 07-29-2016, 12:42 PM
asahi asahi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhythmdvl View Post
His casual, flippant statements about not honouring NATO treaties could have real-world implications. It could easily embolden Russia to pull a Ukraine on a NATO ally.

Blustery inanities about renegotiating public debt could easily result in major financial repercussions through credit agency downgrades, divestment in US notes, etc.

There is a host of examples where his troll-based verbal recklessness could have dramatic, severe consequences.

His comments about Russia releasing the missing emails are repugnant for a number of reasons. But stopping well short of actual collusion or other shenanigans, other than being an affront to the standards of decorum held by major party candidates and the office, what practical harm could such comments lead to? Practical consequences that differ from his general penchant for trolling the media?

Is it plausible that Russia or other state actor would not have committed further acts of espionage but for his statements? How are charges of 'recklessness' and 'irresponsible' being supported? Charges that imply these comments rise to a different tier than his usual 4chan-inspired tomfuckkery?
I'll put it this way: Vladimir Putin has already basically thrown down the gauntlet with the last two presidents. He got militarily involved in South Ossetia, daring outgoing President George W Bush and our allies to do anything to stop him. He threw down the challenge to the West again in 2014. Putin is 2 for 2 -- and that's with strong international diplomatic opposition and economic sanctions. At a time when you have Brexit and the possibility of a fractured Europe and a rift in the NATO alliance, the idea that an American president could propose unconditional normalized relations that would recognize Crimea as Russian-held territory is courting disaster. Even if Vladimir Putin isn't our modern day Hitler, Donald Trump is almost certainly our Neville Chamberlain.

Last edited by asahi; 07-29-2016 at 12:44 PM.
  #20  
Old 07-29-2016, 12:44 PM
Fuzzy_wuzzy Fuzzy_wuzzy is offline
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
I hate to break it to you but that is indeed an inherent contradiction. But that's fine if you want to do that.
Really? I don't think it is. As a private individual I can see the benefits of such a hack and data dump, but if the state has one job it is to protect it's secrets. And if a state does not protect it's secrecy then it has no business calling itself a state bureaucracy. Trump is not quite in my position as a private individual. However, he is probably within his rights to make a flippant comment such as the one he made but also to legitimately head a state which fully prosecutes such hackers.
  #21  
Old 07-29-2016, 12:45 PM
Johnny Ace Johnny Ace is offline
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I'm in total disagreement with Harry Reid calling for denial of briefings. I want Trump to get his classified briefings, so he can shoot his mouth off and get investigated. He won't be getting anything seriously damaging to national security, just enough to show him up as an unequivocal (and criminal) idiot.
  #22  
Old 07-29-2016, 12:51 PM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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Fully aware that everybody spies. But, of course. Not everybody uses the product of such spying to interfere with our elections. That's a bit much.

Last edited by elucidator; 07-29-2016 at 12:51 PM.
  #23  
Old 07-29-2016, 01:19 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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Originally Posted by Fuzzy_wuzzy View Post
Really? I don't think it is. As a private individual I can see the benefits of such a hack and data dump, but if the state has one job it is to protect it's secrets. And if a state does not protect it's secrecy then it has no business calling itself a state bureaucracy. Trump is not quite in my position as a private individual. However, he is probably within his rights to make a flippant comment such as the one he made but also to legitimately head a state which fully prosecutes such hackers.
Of course he's within his rights, as are you to hold conflicting opinions. Let's tighten up your position: You support the prosecution of people who commit acts that you welcome. Now you could shave off some of the inherent conflict if you merely "accepted" their prosecution. The law is the law. But if you welcome these hack and dumps then you should support changing the law that forbids them not their prosecution.
  #24  
Old 07-29-2016, 01:48 PM
Sherrerd Sherrerd is offline
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Originally Posted by Corry El View Post
... Trump's comments on NATO, especially the ones about not necessarily helping the Baltics against Russian aggression (as the US is treaty bound to do) could have an effect on Russia. It could be a reason for them to take more risk of exposure in meddling in the US election to help Trump...
I agree with this; Trump's calling on Russia to provide a US candidate's emails was yet another clear signal to Russia that he is Their Guy. They will be motivated to work harder to ensure his election.



By the way, I'm surprised that so many are giving Trump even the benefit of the doubt by using the word "joke" in quotes (let alone speaking of the remark as if it had been a joke). Listen to the video again: no one in the room laughs or even pretends to laugh.

When people make what they consider to be a joke, they will react if there's no laughter--they will make another joke about how bad the first one was, or they will criticize the audience for failing to get the joke, or they will at least grimace or look flustered or even embarrassed.

But there is nothing like that in the video.

It wasn't said as a joke. It was clearly said as a serious remark that he hoped would be taken seriously.

Nor was it "sarcasm"--in sarcasm you say the opposite of what you mean. He said

Quote:
Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing.
Are we to believe that he was trying to convey the message that he hopes those emails remain missing? If so, why would he want to get such a message across? How does it serve him?

People should stop giving him a pass. He didn't say it as a joke, and he didn't say it sarcastically. He meant exactly what he said.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ail-hack-video
  #25  
Old 07-29-2016, 01:58 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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Originally Posted by Sherrerd View Post

People should stop giving him a pass. He didn't say it as a joke, and he didn't say it sarcastically. He meant exactly what he said.


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ail-hack-video
The "It was only a joke" crapolla is simply another manifestation of Trump's bully-boy personality. It's the modus operandi of every asshole high school bully throughout history. Get called on saying some nasty shit? "Oh, I was just joking, can't you take a joke?"

It goes along with using using violent language and imagery, and then claiming it meant something else:
Quote:
"I was going to hit one guy in particular, a very little guy," Trump said to laughs at a campaign rally in Davenport, Iowa. "I was going to hit this guy so hard his head would spin, he wouldn't know what the hell happened."
Trumps apologists would later explain he didn't REALLY mean he'd physically hit someone.

He's a bully, using schoolyard juvenile bully tactics.
  #26  
Old 07-29-2016, 02:09 PM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
?"

It goes along with using using violent language and imagery, and then claiming it meant something else: Trumps apologists would later explain he didn't REALLY mean he'd physically hit someone.
No. I'm not a Trump apologist but it's pretty unlikely he meant he would physically hit someone. See my and DSeid's posts here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...7#post19515057
  #27  
Old 07-29-2016, 02:17 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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No. I'm not a Trump apologist but it's pretty unlikely he meant he would physically hit someone. See my and DSeid's posts here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...7#post19515057
I agree - because he's a bully and a coward. Bullies like to use violent words and imagery a lot to intimidate.

He could have expressed himself in a variety of ways - but he simply can't help himself, and resorts to this kind of language. It's absolutely stereotypical of a coward bully.

Quote:
"I was going to hit one guy in particular, a very little guy," Trump said to laughs at a campaign rally in Davenport, Iowa. "I was going to hit this guy so hard his head would spin, he wouldn't know what the hell happened."
Absolutely pathetic.

Last edited by Euphonious Polemic; 07-29-2016 at 02:17 PM.
  #28  
Old 07-29-2016, 03:25 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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The practical implications of him calling on the Russians to assassinate Clinton are nil too, but it's still a crazy and immoral thing to say.
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