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  #151  
Old 06-09-2016, 09:18 AM
treis treis is offline
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/artic...ng-racial-bias

Because there is no reasonable doubt that, had this person been a black man, had he not been privileged first by his wealth, then by his skin color (which is almost certainly a factor in his wealth), that the headline would not be "Stanford Swimmer gets 6 months". Rather, it probably would have been something like "Thug Rapist gets 14 years".
From your article:

Quote:
Abrams was surprised that he was not able to find any statistically meaningful racial difference between blacks and whites in terms of sentence length, though he suspects it has more to do with his sample than the fact that racial bias in sentencing doesn't exist.
  #152  
Old 06-09-2016, 09:23 AM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
ETA: If the answer is to declare that drunk people are not competent to consent to sex, I can see the logic...however, that throws a grenade into the social order for a huge swath of the population, especially those in their late teens and early twenties.
So did getting serious about drunk driving. So did turning bars into no smoking areas. You know, we humans adapt to change.

Its my wedding anniversary today - 21 years. We are going out to dinner. I might have a couple glasses of wine and have sex with my husband. After 21 years, we know this is OK with both of us. If I were a young guy (and my son is 17, I've given this advice), I'd never get my dick close to a woman who was drunk unless we'd already had sex more than once. Just like I don't get in a car with someone who may have been drinking, unless I know that they had a single glass of wine an hour ago.
  #153  
Old 06-09-2016, 10:31 AM
Sitnam Sitnam is offline
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Originally Posted by MsRobyn View Post
One more time. It. Does. Not. Matter. if a person gave consent while drunk. A drunk person can't give consent.
Then I've been raping my wife and/or she's been raping me at least once a week for almost 10 years. Should we turn ourselves in and sign up for the sex offender registry ourselves, or what?

How utterly absurd.
  #154  
Old 06-09-2016, 11:14 AM
dasmoocher dasmoocher is offline
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Originally Posted by Sitnam View Post
Then I've been raping my wife and/or she's been raping me at least once a week for almost 10 years. Should we turn ourselves in and sign up for the sex offender registry ourselves, or what?

How utterly absurd.
Yeah, who do I call to report all those instances of females riding me cowgirl while I was drunk! Drunk sex isn't necessarily rape, sometimes--and this is the key part--with a willing partner, it can be fun!

Last edited by dasmoocher; 06-09-2016 at 11:18 AM.
  #155  
Old 06-09-2016, 11:46 AM
Evil Economist Evil Economist is offline
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I'm going to go against the flow here: Isn't it best for society as a whole that criminals spend only the minimum amount of time in prison necessary to ensure that they don't re-offend? If 6 months in prison is enough to ensure that Brock never commits another crime and becomes a productive member of society, isn't 6 months the appropriate sentence? Is the purpose of prison to punish or to rehabilitate?

Society benefits when people are out of prison and working. Every day that someone spends in prison beyond the point necessary to ensure they don't re-offend is a drag on society. And a prison sentence that guarantees that someone can never work again is basically a permanent loss to us.

Now maybe, based on this guy's comments, 6 months isn't enough to prevent him from raping another woman. But that doesn't mean to me that 6 months is necessarily an insufficient sentence. The judge spent more time with Brock than I have, and is presumably more experienced in determining how much jail time is necessary to prevent future criminal behavior. Maybe he's right; maybe after spending 6 months in jail, Brock will never consider going near another woman without her explicit consent. Maybe he'll never drink again. Maybe he'll grow up, get a job, behave himself for the rest of his life. In that case the judge was right.

I guess a potential counter-argument is that harsh punishments for criminals prevent other people from committing crimes. But I think I remember reading that it's not the severity of punishment that reduces crime, but the likelihood of being caught.

Maybe I'm just not ready to jump down the judge's throat just yet.
  #156  
Old 06-09-2016, 12:02 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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Evil Economist, that may be a valid point in the stand-alone abstract, but there's a whole environment of context that affects our perception of the adequacy of this penalty. Especially galling is the refusal to acknowledge sole responsibility for actual wrongdoing against the victim. Add to that how all of us strongly suspect that if this were some working-class townie he'd be facing hard time. If we could have some confidence that someone without his privileges would be equally treated, and if we perceived credible repentance, we would be more willing to take the chance on rehabilitation above redress.
  #157  
Old 06-09-2016, 12:08 PM
TroutMan TroutMan is offline
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Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
I guess a potential counter-argument is that harsh punishments for criminals prevent other people from committing crimes. But I think I remember reading that it's not the severity of punishment that reduces crime, but the likelihood of being caught.
This is partly it but not quite. Rapists like this guy aren't choosing to rape or not based on their likelihood of being caught. It's because they don't think it's rape or see it as a big deal. A light sentence plays into this perception. The value of a longer sentence isn't in convincing other would-be rapists to beware of the consequences. It's in the message that this is rape, not drunken hijinks.

Last edited by TroutMan; 06-09-2016 at 12:08 PM. Reason: typo
  #158  
Old 06-09-2016, 12:36 PM
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Sitnam View Post
Then I've been raping my wife and/or she's been raping me at least once a week for almost 10 years. Should we turn ourselves in and sign up for the sex offender registry ourselves, or what?

How utterly absurd.
So, for almost 10 years you've only have sex with your wife when you or she or both of you are drunk? Pity.

I think the main source of the outrage here is that at no time has the assailant or his family expressed remorse or regret for his actions. "I was drunk and didn't know what I was doing," I could believe if it was followed by, "I regret what I did," and a sincere apology to the victim. This hasn't happened. Instead we have a lot of blame-shifting.

I am a regular participant at Burning Man where alcohol and sex both run rampant. While I like to believe the number of sexual assaults is fewer than in most cities of 70,000 it isn't zero.* In view of this a group calling themselves B.E.D (the Bureau of Erotic Discourse) has sprung up to help navigate those rocky shoals. A repeated theme is Avoid initiating things with someone who is underage, loaded, or otherwise unable to give legal consent. If you want to play while high, make your agreements beforehand. Perhaps frathouses and other places where alcohol and young people mix should start their parties with something like this.

*Actually, the number of reported sexual assaults last year was zero, but we all know how under-reported SAs are.
  #159  
Old 06-09-2016, 12:50 PM
Drunky Smurf Drunky Smurf is offline
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I give you a pass
Ok everbody, time to lay off CCitizen. BigT gave him a pass.
  #160  
Old 06-09-2016, 01:20 PM
dasmoocher dasmoocher is offline
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Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
I'm going to go against the flow here: Isn't it best for society as a whole that criminals spend only the minimum amount of time in prison necessary to ensure that they don't re-offend? If 6 months in prison is enough to ensure that Brock never commits another crime and becomes a productive member of society, isn't 6 months the appropriate sentence? Is the purpose of prison to punish or to rehabilitate?

Society benefits when people are out of prison and working. Every day that someone spends in prison beyond the point necessary to ensure they don't re-offend is a drag on society. And a prison sentence that guarantees that someone can never work again is basically a permanent loss to us.

Now maybe, based on this guy's comments, 6 months isn't enough to prevent him from raping another woman. But that doesn't mean to me that 6 months is necessarily an insufficient sentence. The judge spent more time with Brock than I have, and is presumably more experienced in determining how much jail time is necessary to prevent future criminal behavior. Maybe he's right; maybe after spending 6 months in jail, Brock will never consider going near another woman without her explicit consent. Maybe he'll never drink again. Maybe he'll grow up, get a job, behave himself for the rest of his life. In that case the judge was right.

I guess a potential counter-argument is that harsh punishments for criminals prevent other people from committing crimes. But I think I remember reading that it's not the severity of punishment that reduces crime, but the likelihood of being caught.

Maybe I'm just not ready to jump down the judge's throat just yet.
What is best for society?

Quote:
Otter: Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did.

[winks at Dean Wormer]

Otter: But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
I don't agree with the recall measure against the judge--I believe they [judges] should not take mob rule into account when doing their job, but that guy is a jackass.
  #161  
Old 06-09-2016, 01:36 PM
MaxTheVool MaxTheVool is offline
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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
There's no shade of grey whatsoever. Either a person wants to fuck you, or they don't. If they don't but do when plied with drinks, then taking advantage of it is rape. Simple and clear line.
So how do you know the difference ? You take them home, put them in bed and sleep on the couch or call them in the morning. Again, simple.
That's ridiculous. There's obviously not a clear line. Here's a scale:

1: Your partner is stone cold sober and explicitly gives full verbal and written consent for every act
2: Your partner has had a glass of wine and gives verbal consent to have sex in general
3: Your partner has had two glasses of wine and initiates sex, but no discussion of consent occurs

...
...

98: Your partner turned you down for sex, then you kept getting them beers with the conscoius and malicious intent of getting them drunk enough that they would verbally consent to sex in their drunken state
99: Your partner turned you down for sex, then you kept getting them beers with the conscious and malicious intent of getting them drunk enough that you could rape their unconscious body
100: Your partner turned you down for sex, then you roofied them and raped their unconscious body


1 is absolutely clearly not rape. 100 absolutely clearly is. But that doesn't mean there aren't going to be cases in the middle there where reasonable people can disagree about whether it's rape, or "how much" it's rape (if that makes any sense).


Claiming that there's an unambiguous bright line dividing rape from not-rape when inebriation is involved is just silly.
  #162  
Old 06-09-2016, 02:05 PM
Steve MB Steve MB is online now
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Originally Posted by TroutMan View Post
"I’ve lost two jobs solely based on the reporting of my case."
Like I said, he might as well just be honest and say "I'm sorry I got caught." It's not like we need a Captain Crunch Decoder Ring to glean this message from the stuff he does say.
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Last edited by Steve MB; 06-09-2016 at 02:05 PM.
  #163  
Old 06-09-2016, 02:58 PM
Algher Algher is offline
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Originally Posted by dasmoocher View Post
To write an essay

Do all college admissions require essays nowadays?

I had jock preferences back in the day in the 80's--including Ivy and service academy sports interests, as in personal letters from head coaches. But, I was also a National Merit Semi-Finalist and I had the SAT scores. I don't remember ever being asked to write an essay for my application. Although, I only applied to a school I was guaranteed to get into. Basically, because they were the number one ranked school in my sport of preference.

I'm curious who looked at this swimmer closely enough for him to get into Stanford--a very respectable school.
Yes, essays are required (and Stanford required them back in the 80s when I applied). I had to write for every school, and my child had to write for last year's admissions cycle as well.

Interviews were required for most schools, though not for Stanford. Stanford is doing interviews now, and they are done by alumni (they keep asking me to do them, I am too busy posting on the Dope).

Again - good luck picking that up in the cycle.
  #164  
Old 06-09-2016, 03:05 PM
Sitnam Sitnam is offline
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So, for almost 10 years you've only have sex with your wife when you or she or both of you are drunk? Pity.
That's not what I said, but it doesn't matter, perhaps that's how we like to fuck. Drinking and screwing are both legal. Rape is a morally repugnant action and MsRobyn's absurd position isn't defensible.
  #165  
Old 06-09-2016, 03:49 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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I'm sure most rapes could be characterized as "20 minutes of action," more or less . . . from the rapist's POV. From the victim's POV it's that 20 minutes plus a lifetime of remembering it (if she can).
  #166  
Old 06-09-2016, 04:16 PM
Dinsdale Dinsdale is offline
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Just want to offer that maybe this judge IS an incompetent douchebag, prejudiced in favor of his alma mater.

I'll offer the slim possibility, however, that maybe he just fucked up this judgment call out of countless judgment calls he makes in his career.

If he'd let him off with probation, hells yeah, I'd be with you. But a felony conviction, 6 months, and sex offender status - while you think it insufficient, it ain't nothing. I'm curious - what do folk feel WOULD have been an appropriate sentence? I'm serious. Sentencing guidelines and practices have always stricken me as odd, and often not well proportionate to the acts committed.

I tend to think the sentence somewhat light, but I'm not sure exactly what sentence I think would have been appropriate. I'll certainly agree that the judge got this one wrong. But must of us occasionally get something not perfect in our jobs. Unless I knew more about this judge's sentencing practices over time, this one sentence is not enough for me to accuse him of more.
  #167  
Old 06-09-2016, 04:59 PM
MsRobyn MsRobyn is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Cite? I mean, if this is legally true, then something like 99.99999% of rapes are going unreported.
You asked, I deliver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overview of California's rape law
Intoxication by alcohol or drugs impaired the victim's ability to consent. The defendant knew or reasonably should have known about the victim's impairment.
California, BTW, has a "yes means yes" consent law, meaning that someone has to give clear consent to having sex.

If you and your spouse/significant other/whoever go out, have a few beers/glasses of wine/drinks and bump uglies after, have a good time since you're probably expecting to do it. If you decide to fuck someone at a party who's too drunk to stand up, it's rape no matter how you slice it.
  #168  
Old 06-09-2016, 05:10 PM
Algher Algher is offline
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For those looking for more sources of information on this case:

-Stanford Daily (student newspaper): http://goo.gl/SZLz8b
-Stanford News (official university publication) statement Jan '15: https://goo.gl/VeAvyS
-The DA's complaint: http://goo.gl/nh4NpD
-Palo Alto Online: http://goo.gl/KZthUh
-Other Palo Alto Online coverage of the trial (many links): https://goo.gl/e4nloa
-San Jose Mercury News story verdict: http://goo.gl/9dG2UZ
-Turner's statement to the judge: http://goo.gl/5b9mfc
-Turner's father's statement: http://goo.gl/j3dwfL
-Victim's impact statement: https://goo.gl/y9tTLA
-San Jose Mercury News story on 6-month sentence: http://goo.gl/bU2MUe
-DA's statement on 6-month sentence: https://goo.gl/Rw1rTu
-Stanford statement on the sentence: https://goo.gl/Y6gl6Z
-Stanford statement on sexual violence after sentencing: https://goo.gl/A3gjZx
-Stanford fact sheet on combating sexual violence: https://goo.gl/uB9I3E
-DA's statement on petition to recall the judge: https://goo.gl/mXkmIF
-Stanford Daily story on protest planned for graduation: http://goo.gl/TLbYKW
  #169  
Old 06-09-2016, 06:19 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Originally Posted by MsRobyn View Post
You asked, I deliver.



California, BTW, has a "yes means yes" consent law, meaning that someone has to give clear consent to having sex.

If you and your spouse/significant other/whoever go out, have a few beers/glasses of wine/drinks and bump uglies after, have a good time since you're probably expecting to do it. If you decide to fuck someone at a party who's too drunk to stand up, it's rape no matter how you slice it.
Okay, but that's not what you said earlier, nor what I was talking about. The times I blacked out, I was not too drunk to stand up according to multiple witnesses. It's about whether the memory is stored. Researching it some more, it appears that it's genetic (some people are more likely than others to black out), and has partly to do with how quickly the BAC level rises, rather than how high it is. So one person can be visibly drunker than the other, but the less drunk-seeming person doesn't remember a period of an hour or two the next day.

ETA: That California law, which goes way too far IMO, appears to be for college campus policy, not for the legal definition of rape as a criminal matter.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 06-09-2016 at 06:22 PM.
  #170  
Old 06-10-2016, 05:13 AM
Kobal2 Kobal2 is offline
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Originally Posted by MaxTheVool View Post
Claiming that there's an unambiguous bright line dividing rape from not-rape when inebriation is involved is just silly.
Since we're talking one-night stands and party hookups, the line is absolutely clear : you don't know how that person reacts to alcohol (I know at least one girl who can't walk straight after a lone pint), you don't even know how much they've had before, and keeping it in your pants for one night is hurting who exactly ?! If there's the least bit of doubt, you don't do it, period. There'll always be some doubt in a wild party setting where booze or drugs are in the mix. So you don't do it. Simple as that. And you especially don't do it when it's quite obvious they're lit up.

The sitch is obviously not the same with a regular partner, or a person you already know is otherwise very much into you (e.g. a shy guy/gal who plucked up the liquid courage and/or excuse) etc... But a random hook-up ? Play it safe and gentlemanly, for their sake as much as your own.
  #171  
Old 06-10-2016, 06:07 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Since we're talking one-night stands and party hookups, the line is absolutely clear : you don't know how that person reacts to alcohol (I know at least one girl who can't walk straight after a lone pint), you don't even know how much they've had before, and keeping it in your pants for one night is hurting who exactly ?! If there's the least bit of doubt, you don't do it, period. There'll always be some doubt in a wild party setting where booze or drugs are in the mix. So you don't do it. Simple as that. And you especially don't do it when it's quite obvious they're lit up.

The sitch is obviously not the same with a regular partner, or a person you already know is otherwise very much into you (e.g. a shy guy/gal who plucked up the liquid courage and/or excuse) etc... But a random hook-up ? Play it safe and gentlemanly, for their sake as much as your own.
So let's just be clear. You are essentially saying that millions of college students and other young people are raping each other every weekend. Not only that, but male and female, they are planning their weekends around raping and being raped. Which also means that the many thousands of "meet market" bars--whose whole raison d'ętre is to provide a venue for people to go and get drunk and "hook up" with other drunk people they just met--have a business model oriented around facilitating violent criminal activity. (Plus of course the many more thousands of keg parties, but most of those are already breaking the law by serving minors.)

I'm not saying this assertion can't possibly have any merit, but it is an extraordinary claim--and you should own it as such.

ETA: Some gay people might even argue that this moral standard is particularly judgemental against male gay culture. Another thing to think about.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 06-10-2016 at 06:09 AM.
  #172  
Old 06-10-2016, 07:07 AM
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Sitnam View Post
That's not what I said, but it doesn't matter, perhaps that's how we like to fuck. Drinking and screwing are both legal. Rape is a morally repugnant action and MsRobyn's absurd position isn't defensible.
I apologize for the snark. I would put, though, there is a difference between a couple in a long-time committed relationship and a couple, at least one of which doesn't know the other's name, who just met at a party. Further, I'd bet if your wife overshot a bit and was totally unconscious, activities would cease and you sure as hell wouldn't be dragging her out back by the dumpster.

Drinking and driving are both legal; in combination, not so much.
  #173  
Old 06-10-2016, 10:13 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Merneith View Post
It's true that she was found with bruises and pine needles inside her.
Do you have a cite? I tried googling Brock Turner and pine needles and all I got were some stories about witches casting a hex on him involving pine needles.
  #174  
Old 06-10-2016, 10:16 AM
joyfool joyfool is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Do you have a cite? I tried googling Brock Turner and pine needles and all I got were some stories about witches casting a hex on him involving pine needles.

I know there was mention of it in her impact statement. Several times, in fact.
  #175  
Old 06-10-2016, 10:25 AM
Not Carlson Not Carlson is offline
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Originally Posted by Sitnam View Post
Recalling this judge will lead to harsher sentences for Black and Latino criminals

Huh. I'm conflicted, I think he does have a point, but I'm not sure people should avoid the consequences of poor actions even for the greater good.

Whelp, I don’t.
I think his reasoning is just plumb ass-backwards.

Per the article:
Quote:
Paul Butler : But if bias in favor of white defendants was grounds for disqualification, this country would face a severe shortage of judges and prosecutors. Angela Jordan Davis, former head of the District of Columbia Public Defender Service, writes that “There was a running joke in the office that any lawyer who could not get a good deal for a white client should turn in his license to practice law.”
Isn’t that exactly why the public needs to stand up and demand a change? That is a disgraceful state of affairs that needs to be properly addressed and changed, not joked about.

Quote:
Paul Butler : The message sent by a recall would be that before an elected judge hands down a sentence, she should think about how popular her decision will be with the public.
This would inevitably lead to harsher punishment because, politically, it’s always safer for a judge to throw the book at a convicted criminal rather than give him a break – even when giving him a break is the right thing to do.
No, if done properly, it would lead to fairer sentences and no more easy breaks for criminals from the privileged classes.

Quote:
Paul Butler : The people who would suffer most from this punitiveness would not be white boys at frat parties. Almost 70 percent of the people in prison in California are Latino and African-American. Those are the groups that would bear the brunt of zealous punishment
But I thought blacks and Latinos already get harsher sentences. How can giving a privileged, snotty-nosed frat-boy rapist a fair punishment for his horrendous crimes somehow mean things will get tougher for those folks who already got the rough end of the stick?

Quote:
Paul Butler : But even when defendants get big time, the pain of their crime is not diminished. The best way to honor survivors is to change the culture and to educate all men to respect women.
And maybe acknowledge the victim as a living, breathing, feeling person, and not just treat her as either
a) A dainty piece of broken china forever shattered by a cruel monster, or
b) A loose floozy who was clearly asking for it
depending on the class of her assailant.


Or, y’know, what Kobal2 said in far fewer words.
  #176  
Old 06-10-2016, 10:27 AM
Steve MB Steve MB is online now
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Originally Posted by MaxTheVool View Post
Claiming that there's an unambiguous bright line dividing rape from not-rape when inebriation is involved is just silly.
Irrelevant; we are discussing a case that clearly falls in the solid black region beyond the vague grey borderlands. It's like arguing that since the tax code is too complicated for anybody to know for sure exactly what is deductible then the IRS should be OK with me claiming dependent deductions for my cats.
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  #177  
Old 06-10-2016, 10:46 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Irrelevant; we are discussing a case that clearly falls in the solid black region beyond the vague grey borderlands. It's like arguing that since the tax code is too complicated for anybody to know for sure exactly what is deductible then the IRS should be OK with me claiming dependent deductions for my cats.
I think we all agree about this case, which makes it not all that interesting to discuss. I think my tangential question gives us more to chew the fat over.
  #178  
Old 06-10-2016, 11:02 AM
Not Carlson Not Carlson is offline
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Originally Posted by WilyQuixote View Post
I was enjoying reading this pitting of an over privileged and entitled turd who received a shockingly light sentence.

But no rape discussion thread on the internet is ever complete until someone raises the "false allegations" boogeyman.
I don’t think either SlackerInc or BPC are trying to bring the boogeyman of “false allegations” into the discussion/rant.

They are pointing out that issues regarding consent and sex can become grey when any degree of intoxication is involved. That’s precisely why you have judges and juries to interpret grey cases. This does NOT mean that being intoxicated should be a defense against culpability for committing rape, or that a person too intoxicated to say “no” should be considered a willing partner.

In any case, it is irrelevant to the case in point, in which there is no doubt that Brock Turner’s actions were rape, out and out.

So maybe discussion of “booze+sex+(consent?)=grey zone?” would be better suited to GD (although it would probably end up back in the pit before long).
This is a pitting of a horrible rapist and the people who don’t seem to think his crime is all that bad.



(It seems a few strange creatures have decided, for whatever reason, that this is also a nice placed for them to drop their comically partisan turds. How very odd they are. Let us be careful not to tread in them.)
  #179  
Old 06-10-2016, 11:09 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by faithfool View Post
I know there was mention of it in her impact statement. Several times, in fact.
I thought she was talking about the pine needles in her hair not her vagina.
  #180  
Old 06-10-2016, 11:15 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Cite? I mean, if this is legally true, then something like 99.99999% of rapes are going unreported.
I am told that kids these days use the internet to hook up just as much as my generation used alcohol.
  #181  
Old 06-10-2016, 11:20 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I am told that kids these days use the internet to hook up just as much as my generation used alcohol.
But are they really all that likely to be stone cold sober when they're swiping right?
  #182  
Old 06-10-2016, 12:10 PM
Scylla Scylla is offline
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I'll try to break this one down:

1. The way I was raised, a passed out woman is an opportunity for a man to help, assist and protect. Growing up, I always wanted to be a hero. I can't understand how someone could see such a thing and think of it as an opportunity to satisfy lust. Maybe there's too much porn and selfishness in the world, but it seems to me the cool thing about sex is having an enthusiastic partner. Shame on this guy for not understanding this.

2. Thank God for the two blonde swedes that came by, to show what manhood really means.

3. I don't blame the father, at all. Of course he is going to do everything within his power to help his son, and cast things in the least damaging light. The father raped nobody. As far as I can tell, the kid was never in serious trouble before. Got into Stanford which is no small feat, was an Olympic hopeful swimmer. Raising such a child doesn't seem to indicate that one was a bad parent. I have no idea what kind of a parent he was. The father likely sees the good kid he raised from a baby, helped with homework, coached swimming, and that he has loved his whole life.

4. people can lead exemplary or ordinary lives and then commit horrible unthinkable acts of evil. More than one thing can be true at the same time. He could have been a spoiled evil selfish brat from birth who acted in character when he raped this woman, or he could have been a good normal kid his whole life up until the moment he raped the girl. Neither would surprise me. It doesn't really matter. He did what he did and he should suffer the consequences.

5. Can I point out that getting irresponsibly drunk and passing out behind a dumpster is bad behavior for anybody, and particularly stupid for a young woman, without being accused of supporting rape culture or being accused of suggesting she brought this upon herself?

6. If he got 4 years of jail, out in 2 I would have thought that he got the lightest possible sentence that could reasonably been given.

Last edited by Scylla; 06-10-2016 at 12:12 PM.
  #183  
Old 06-10-2016, 12:41 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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Even she admits that her behavior was irresponsible, so I'd say yes to #5. She seems to be doing a better job taking responsibility for her part in this than he is.

I blame the father and the friend - not for supporting him, but for writing such stupid crap. Here is a hint, if you ever write a character letter for a convicted felon (which is what these were), have someone in a victim advocate role read it over. Make sure you don't use words like "20 minutes of action" that could be misconstrued or "rape isn't always caused by rapists." You end up looking like an idiot - and the letters are public.
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  #184  
Old 06-10-2016, 12:52 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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It would appear though that empirically speaking, the letters worked. Or didn't hurt, anyway. The odds were against their going viral, and in any case he would probably take the trade of public embarrassment instead of years of prison for his son.
  #185  
Old 06-10-2016, 12:58 PM
treis treis is offline
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Originally Posted by Not Carlson View Post
This is a pitting of a horrible rapist and the people who don’t seem to think his crime is all that bad
I think there's a disconnect between how people perceive the severity of the punishment. Some say that the punishment is a slap on the wrist and won't have that severe an impact on his life. Others see it as something that will drastically and negatively affect him for the rest of his life.
  #186  
Old 06-10-2016, 01:02 PM
Scylla Scylla is offline
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Originally Posted by Dangerosa View Post
Even she admits that her behavior was irresponsible, so I'd say yes to #5. She seems to be doing a better job taking responsibility for her part in this than he is.

I blame the father and the friend - not for supporting him, but for writing such stupid crap. Here is a hint, if you ever write a character letter for a convicted felon (which is what these were), have someone in a victim advocate role read it over. Make sure you don't use words like "20 minutes of action" that could be misconstrued or "rape isn't always caused by rapists." You end up looking like an idiot - and the letters are public.
I agree with what you've said. I've read her letter, and she does take responsibility. Sorry if I implied otherwise. One thing I found interesting was how she seemed to be as angry over his and his families actions after the rape as she is about the rape itself. I felt that it was strongly implied on her part that had he been immediately remorseful and cooperative than they could have gotten past the incident and "gotten on with their lives."
  #187  
Old 06-10-2016, 01:05 PM
Scylla Scylla is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
It would appear though that empirically speaking, the letters worked. Or didn't hurt, anyway. The odds were against their going viral, and in any case he would probably take the trade of public embarrassment instead of years of prison for his son.
Oh, I think it's both. His life is definitely ruined. He's famous now, and will have to register as a sexual offender the rest of his life. This will follow him forever.... As it should.

He also should go to jail for longer.

My two cents.
  #188  
Old 06-10-2016, 01:14 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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I think there's a disconnect between how people perceive the severity of the punishment. Some say that the punishment is a slap on the wrist and won't have that severe an impact on his life. Others see it as something that will drastically and negatively affect him for the rest of his life.
Frankly, I think he'd have been better off with a three year sentence that the internet wouldn't have gone nuts about than with this going viral. He's never going to escape a search engine. The judge did him NO favors.

Its hard to walk away from any felony sexual assault conviction. But slipping under the radar is easier if you didn't cross everyone's news feed for a week straight.
  #189  
Old 06-10-2016, 01:18 PM
Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is online now
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
3. I don't blame the father, at all. Of course he is going to do everything within his power to help his son, and cast things in the least damaging light. The father raped nobody. As far as I can tell, the kid was never in serious trouble before. Got into Stanford which is no small feat, was an Olympic hopeful swimmer. Raising such a child doesn't seem to indicate that one was a bad parent. I have no idea what kind of a parent he was. The father likely sees the good kid he raised from a baby, helped with homework, coached swimming, and that he has loved his whole life.
No. Stop. This is wrong and morally indefensible. I don't care how much you love someone, if they have clearly done wrong, there are ways to help them without crossing into unethical (or criminal) actions oneself and IMO this father crossed that line. His son was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, was found guilty, and yet the father continued to deny his son's responsibility and to acknowledge the gravity of the offense.

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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
5. Can I point out that getting irresponsibly drunk and passing out behind a dumpster is bad behavior for anybody, and particularly stupid for a young woman, without being accused of supporting rape culture or being accused of suggesting she brought this upon herself?
You can point that out but I doubt you could you demonstrate any relevance to the events under discussion so no, I'm not sure you won't be accused of supporting rape culture or won't be accused of suggesting she brought this upon herself. I am sure I wouldn't even try and defend you from such accusations, should someone choose to make them.
  #190  
Old 06-10-2016, 01:34 PM
Sampiro Sampiro is offline
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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Well call me old fashioned but I stand by the traditional folk remedy of my people - the guillotine.
That is more elegant. Probably because it comes from France.
  #191  
Old 06-10-2016, 01:43 PM
psychobunny psychobunny is online now
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2. Thank God for the two blonde swedes that came by, to show what manhood really means.
FWIW. one of them wasn't blond. Pics It's this kind of assumption about the Swedish people, this anti-Sweditism....nah-I got nothing.
  #192  
Old 06-10-2016, 02:10 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
But are they really all that likely to be stone cold sober when they're swiping right?
I don't know if you are being serious but they haven't gotten the internet to the point where you can rape someone through it yet. You still have to meet in person.
  #193  
Old 06-10-2016, 02:15 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
I agree with what you've said. I've read her letter, and she does take responsibility. Sorry if I implied otherwise. One thing I found interesting was how she seemed to be as angry over his and his families actions after the rape as she is about the rape itself. I felt that it was strongly implied on her part that had he been immediately remorseful and cooperative than they could have gotten past the incident and "gotten on with their lives."
Well, they did drag her through court for over a year. They tried to move as much of the culpability from the rapist to the rape victim.
  #194  
Old 06-10-2016, 02:21 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
No. Stop. This is wrong and morally indefensible. I don't care how much you love someone, if they have clearly done wrong, there are ways to help them without crossing into unethical (or criminal) actions oneself and IMO this father crossed that line. His son was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, was found guilty, and yet the father continued to deny his son's responsibility and to acknowledge the gravity of the offense.
There is nothing criminal about that so you must think it is unethical and immoral for a parent to defend his son's actions by trying to paint them as a moment of indiscretion. What exactly is unethical about a parent doing this? I mean his lawyer did much worse, was he unethical or is the lawyer's duty to Brock greater than the father's?

Brock had already gotten convicted and the father was trying to convince the judge to impose the lightest sentence possible. Is the father supposed to tell the judge to just throw his son under the prison because his son is such a horrible person?
  #195  
Old 06-10-2016, 02:29 PM
Scylla Scylla is offline
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
No. Stop. This is wrong and morally indefensible. I don't care how much you love someone, if they have clearly done wrong, there are ways to help them without crossing into unethical (or criminal) actions oneself and IMO this father crossed that line. His son was guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, was found guilty, and yet the father continued to deny his son's responsibility and to acknowledge the gravity of the offense.
What did the father do that was criminal? The major sin of the letter the father wrote is that it is actually poorly crafted, and, as Dangerosa points out, it probably would have been a good idea for someone to review it more carefully than it was. I don't see what law was broken or ethical line was crossed. He made bad arguments insensitively. He did so in writing.


Quote:
You can point that out but I doubt you could you demonstrate any relevance to the events under discussion so no, I'm not sure you won't be accused of supporting rape culture or won't be accused of suggesting she brought this upon herself. I am sure I wouldn't even try and defend you from such accusations, should someone choose to make them.
But I was counting on you!
  #196  
Old 06-10-2016, 02:32 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by psychobunny View Post
FWIW. one of them wasn't blond. Pics It's this kind of assumption about the Swedish people, this anti-Sweditism....nah-I got nothing.
I don't know why he even mentions blonde except perhaps to point out that not all white men are rapists.

There was a meme floating around at the start of the black lives matter movement among some Asians. The premise was that every criticism that whites throw at blacks, black culture, black communities, etc. could just as easily be thrown by Asians at white communities.

I mean seriously, whats up with all the white on white crime.

What up with all the single white mothers? Where are the fathers in the white community?

Whites are just more prone to violence and crime. The statistics tell the whole story.

Why are so many whites on welfare? Why don't they just go out and get work?

Whites are poor because they are lazy.

If they wanted a better life, they should have thought of that before they spent their high school years date raping their classmates instead of studying for the SATs.

The hashtag went on for thousands of posts a few hundred of which were clever or unique.
  #197  
Old 06-10-2016, 02:47 PM
Typo Negative Typo Negative is offline
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
What did the father do that was criminal?
He committed no crime.


He is a dick, though. He should not face criminal charges. He should pelted with tomatoes and garbage as he walks through the streets.
  #198  
Old 06-10-2016, 02:58 PM
Scylla Scylla is offline
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Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
He committed no crime.


He is a dick, though. He should not face criminal charges. He should pelted with tomatoes and garbage as he walks through the streets.
Or he could announce his repentance to the High Sparrow, study scripture and pretend to use his power over the king to forge an alliance between the royalty and the faith militant, while secretly planning to free his brother.

I mean, if you want to go all GOT with it.

Last edited by Scylla; 06-10-2016 at 02:59 PM.
  #199  
Old 06-10-2016, 03:12 PM
WilyQuixote WilyQuixote is online now
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Originally Posted by treis View Post
I think there's a disconnect between how people perceive the severity of the punishment. Some say that the punishment is a slap on the wrist and won't have that severe an impact on his life. Others see it as something that will drastically and negatively affect him for the rest of his life.
Why can't it be both?

A criminal record will limit his future opportunities, including employment, even with the insulation provided by family wealth. Adding his name to the sex offender's registry will limit his opportunities further and can, as I understand it, limit where he may live. Not sure what probation will entail in this instance but possibly entails restrictions on movement including curfews, random visits by probation officers, prohibitions on the consumption of alcohol or drugs, amongst others. These are serious consequences and with the exception of probation, likely lifelong.

On the other hand he committed a serious sexual offence, one that demands a substantive custodial sentence. An effective three months for his actions is absurd -and I say that as someone who generally regards American prison sentences to be way too punitive and lengthy.
  #200  
Old 06-10-2016, 03:48 PM
treis treis is offline
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Why can't it be both?
I think you can argue that his crime isn't being taken seriously enough, but I don't think you can say it isn't being taken serious.
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