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  #1  
Old 06-15-2016, 08:49 AM
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New movie "Vaxxed" reopens discussion about the link between autism and vaccines


I was sort of sitting on the fence on the debate about the link between autism and the MMR vaccine ubntil last night when I saw the film "Vaxxed". It truly puts a new spotlight on the issue. I have a son with autism and like those in the movie, he didnt show symptoms until getting the MMR.

I highly encourage others to see the movie. Here in Kansas City the directors were in attendance during last weeks showing. The movie was sold out and many health care professionals were in attendance and were allowed to ask questions. Some pro vaccination protesters also showed up. It's all over our local Facebook.

And just so you dont think I havent read the other sides, here are some other links: Vaxxed: Cover up to Catastrophe, Skeptical Reporter. I have also read when people post on this site and others.

After watching this here are some recommendations I have:

1. That there should be serious research made about the link between the MMR vaccine and autism done by major scientific bodies both inside and outside the US that examines autism of both vaccinated and un-vaccinated children. We should not just rely on the American CDC.

2. Their should be additional studies looking at a possible link between an increase in autism of black children especially boys when vaccinated according to CDC guidelines.

3. That parents should be allowed to opt out of CDC vaccination guidelines and instead, be allowed to let their children be vaccinated when they are older and be allowed to be vaccinated with single does vaccines for each separate illness.

4. Congress should repeal the legislation that shields big pharma companies from being sued.

5. Countries outside the US not follow US CDC guidelines and instead, create their own.

Persons should also be made aware that senior CDC staff, like the senior members of the US military, often after leaving government service go work for big pharmaceutical firms with high salaries.


PLEASE, Go see this movie and if you can, go when you can ask questions of the persons who made it.
  #2  
Old 06-15-2016, 09:08 AM
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There is no link between vaccines and autism. This has been extensively researched, and not just in the United States.

The movie is lying.

Regards,
Shodan
  #3  
Old 06-15-2016, 09:11 AM
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In re: your five suggestions:

1 and 2 have already been done. Research in the UK, Denmark, Sweden, and Japan all failed to prove any link between vaccines and autism.

For 3, children shouldn't have to suffer because their parents don't know how vaccines work. However, as a compromise, I would be able to live with such an exemption provided the children are homeschooled so they don't risk bringing potentially deadly diseases into mainstream schools.

In re. Point 4: There has already been a class-action lawsuit against 'Big Pharma' concerning allegations of a connection between vaccines and autism. The case was dismissed for lack of evidence.

In re. Point 5: I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure this is already the case.

Vaxxed is propaganda, and like all propaganda it is inherently one-sided. Experts the world over have spent decades looking for evidence of a link between vaccines and autism and haven't found anything. At this point, the only sensible conclusion is that there isn't any evidence to be found.
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:17 AM
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Vaxxed is propaganda, and like all propaganda it is inherently one-sided. Experts the world over have spent decades looking for evidence of a link between vaccines and autism and haven't found anything. At this point, the only sensible conclusion is that there isn't any evidence to be found.
There have been so many studies done, and basically any more research would be wasted time and money that could instead go to figuring out better ways to treat autism, or treat or solve other medical issues.
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:21 AM
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I was sort of sitting on the fence on the debate about the link between autism and the MMR vaccine ubntil last night when I saw the film "Vaxxed".
As "Vaxxed" is by all accounts an execrable piece of conspiracy mongering propaganda, directed by none other than Andrew Wakefield (yes, that one) is the above an admission that you are now firmly situated in the anti-vaxx camp?
  #6  
Old 06-15-2016, 09:22 AM
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And just so you dont think I havent read the other sides, here are some other links: Vaxxed: Cover up to Catastrophe, Skeptical Reporter. I have also read when people post on this site and others.
If you've read all that and what has been pointed out on this board numerous times, both about anti-vaxing and the movie itself, and still make the recommendations that you do, then there's a damn good chance that there is nothing more we can say to you fact-wise that will really matter, will it? Every single one of your suggestions totally ignores facts and evidence that you claim you've already examined...so what do you expect of us in this thread that hasn't been done in the other threads you claim to have read?
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:26 AM
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After watching this here are some recommendations I have:

1. That there should be serious research made about the link between the MMR vaccine and autism done by major scientific bodies both inside and outside the US that examines autism of both vaccinated and un-vaccinated children. We should not just rely on the American CDC.
If that's what you get from a movie, then it's a propaganda piece made by lying liars who ignore the mountain of evidence against them. Here's one part of the mountain:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12523209
Quote:
RESULTS:
In the cohort of 537,303 children (2,129,864 person-years), 440,655 children had been MMR vaccinated. We identified 316 children with a diagnosis of autistic disorder and 442 with a diagnosis of other spectrum disorders. After adjusting for potential confounders, the risk for autistic disorder and other spectrum disorders was not increased in vaccinated compared with unvaccinated children (relative risk 0.92; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.68 to 1.24 and relative risk 0.83; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.65 to 1.07). There was no association between age at vaccination, time since vaccination or calendar period at time of vaccination and development of autistic disorder.
DISCUSSION:
This study provides strong evidence against the hypothesis that MMR vaccination causes autism.
"Strong evidence against". That's as good as it gets in the world of medical research resulta.
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:26 AM
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"Fuck you, Andrew Wakefield." Just thought I'd throw that in. I'd say "fuck Jenny McCarthy," too but that might imply something positive.

Yes, parents of children with autism want a simple answer. There isn't one. The "answer" is to quit trying to figure out what caused the problem and turn at maximum speed to effective therapy. The window for maximum results is very small, from earliest possible diagnosis (18-24m) to perhaps 3-4 years. All returns after that are rapidly diminishing.

Last edited by Amateur Barbarian; 06-15-2016 at 09:28 AM.
  #9  
Old 06-15-2016, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
5. Countries outside the US not follow US CDC guidelines and instead, create their own.
Why the flying bologna sandwiches do you think they do? WHO, yes. CDC, no.

And add me to "what debate? If you've eaten what they're selling, puke it up and hie thee to the ER, now!"

Last edited by Nava; 06-15-2016 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:39 AM
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Why the flying bologna sandwiches do you think they do? WHO, yes. CDC, no...
Yup:

Quote:
UK immunisation policy is influenced by the policies that are developed through the World Health Organization (WHO) for the European region. The process and outcome targets established by WHO have been used to guide the objectives of the UK programme.
Source: http://m.bmb.oxfordjournals.org/content/62/1/201.full
  #11  
Old 06-15-2016, 09:41 AM
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What Tithonus said.

Really Urbanredneck, the anti-vaccination pseudo scientists are lying to you when they tell you that we need to do research of this outside and inside the USA, it has been done, many times already.

https://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/20...with-vaccines/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/au...cine-myth.html
  #12  
Old 06-15-2016, 09:46 AM
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There is no autism epidemic that needs explanation. The increases in diagnosis from autism come from expanding what we consider autism and increased vigilance looking for the symptoms. If you apply current standards for diagnosing autism retroactively, then the same percentage of people in the past would fall under the definition of autism. Autism rates are steady.

Wakefield was paid by a company who wanted to sell a new vaccine product to falsify research that implicated the old vaccine product as being dangerous. It wasn't just a poor study, it was a deliberate attempt to fabricate evidence to essentially conduct sabotage on medicines that were and are safe. It was investigated by the British medical authorities and his license was revoked and his published data retracted.

There has never been a shred of evidence that vaccines cause autism. If an orange juice company had tried to pay off Wakefield to falsify research showing that existing orange juice brands cause autism, then we'd have a big conspiracy that orange juice causes autism. The vaccine aspect of it is essentially arbitrary.

There's a mountain of counter-evidence that vaccines don't cause autism. We've spent so much money and valuable researcher hours disproving something that we already knew in the first place but was fixated in the stupid public's mind as this big conspiracy. We've wasted enough valuable research assets trying to calm the utterly stupid public who is immune to the truth anyway.

And now we've got a resurgence of diseases that were effectively eliminated because of one asshole who's making a career out of lying to people to scare them away from one of the greatest medical developments of all time and uncritical masses who latch onto conspiracy theories. It's a tragedy and anyone who promotes it is disgusting.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 06-15-2016 at 09:48 AM.
  #13  
Old 06-15-2016, 09:51 AM
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You know what else is correlated? Receiving vaccines and dying.

Yep. Every person alive who has been vaccinated will someday die.

Scary, but true. So, vaccines must cause death, right?

(Unfortunately, even the unvaccinated will also die someday. So not being vaccinated also causes death? )

The above has about as much validity as Wakefield's claims.
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:58 AM
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So... you're saying we should teach the controversy? Kidding! Please don't hit me.

It's worth noting that not only was Wakefield getting paid to establish a link between MMR and autism but he also had developed a new single vaccine (for measles IIRC) which would only be commercially viable if the MMR vaccine was discredited. Doubly conflicted.

As for the correlation between vaccination and autism, the main reason is simply because autism symptoms being to manifest themselves more overtly around the same age that the MMR is administered. The correlation is linked to age, but does not indicate causation any more than anything else done to or by children at that age does.

And to reiterate SenorBeef's first point, the reason there are more autism diagnoses is because we know a lot more about autism than we used to. This is a good thing. Maybe there will someday be a cure for autism (or a vaccine!), or maybe it's something that one is born with, but the more we know the better.
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:15 AM
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I'll just mention here that my favorite writer on topics of medicine and medical practice is the American surgeon and researcher Atul Gawande, who has also been a staff writer at the New Yorker for many years. As a medical writer Gawande is deeply knowledgeable, inspiringly eloquent, and scrupulously honest. Last week he gave the commencement address at Caltech and it's very pertinent to this thread, as it deals with the subject of the distrust of science that plagues our society.

I highly recommend reading the whole thing, but here is the part specifically relevant to the OP:
Vaccine fears, for example, have persisted despite decades of research showing them to be unfounded. Some twenty-five years ago, a statistical analysis suggested a possible association between autism and thimerosal, a preservative used in vaccines to prevent bacterial contamination. The analysis turned out to be flawed, but fears took hold. Scientists then carried out hundreds of studies, and found no link. Still, fears persisted. Countries removed the preservative but experienced no reduction in autism—yet fears grew. A British study claimed a connection between the onset of autism in eight children and the timing of their vaccinations for measles, mumps, and rubella. That paper was retracted due to findings of fraud: the lead author had falsified and misrepresented the data on the children. Repeated efforts to confirm the findings were unsuccessful. Nonetheless, vaccine rates plunged, leading to outbreaks of measles and mumps that, last year, sickened tens of thousands of children across the U.S., Canada, and Europe, and resulted in deaths.

People are prone to resist scientific claims when they clash with intuitive beliefs. They don’t see measles or mumps around anymore. They do see children with autism. And they see a mom who says, “My child was perfectly fine until he got a vaccine and became autistic.”

Now, you can tell them that correlation is not causation. You can say that children get a vaccine every two to three months for the first couple years of their life, so the onset of any illness is bound to follow vaccination for many kids. You can say that the science shows no connection. But once an idea has got embedded and become widespread, it becomes very difficult to dig it out of people’s brains—especially when they do not trust scientific authorities. And we are experiencing a significant decline in trust in scientific authorities.
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-d...ust-of-science
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:32 AM
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The simole fact is that autism in children starts to manifest itself at the same age they're being vaccinated. There is no connection at all between these things, as exhaustive research has shown, but all that the affected parents know is that little Johnny started showing the signs a week after he was vaccinated. That has to be the reason! He was fine till then! No, it isn't the reason and he wasn't fine, he was just displaying no visible symptoms until then. It's the old fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc.

The film, which I actually watched, is a farrago of distortions and downright untruths. Andrew Wakefield should be ashamed of himself.
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I was sort of sitting on the fence on the debate about the link between autism and the MMR vaccine ubntil last night when I saw the film "Vaxxed". It truly puts a new spotlight on the issue. I have a son with autism and like those in the movie, he didnt show symptoms until getting the MMR.

I highly encourage others to see the movie. Here in Kansas City the directors were in attendance during last weeks showing. The movie was sold out and many health care professionals were in attendance and were allowed to ask questions. Some pro vaccination protesters also showed up. It's all over our local Facebook.

And just so you dont think I havent read the other sides, here are some other links: Vaxxed: Cover up to Catastrophe, Skeptical Reporter. I have also read when people post on this site and others.

After watching this here are some recommendations I have:

1. That there should be serious research made about the link between the MMR vaccine and autism done by major scientific bodies both inside and outside the US that examines autism of both vaccinated and un-vaccinated children. We should not just rely on the American CDC.

2. Their should be additional studies looking at a possible link between an increase in autism of black children especially boys when vaccinated according to CDC guidelines.

3. That parents should be allowed to opt out of CDC vaccination guidelines and instead, be allowed to let their children be vaccinated when they are older and be allowed to be vaccinated with single does vaccines for each separate illness.

4. Congress should repeal the legislation that shields big pharma companies from being sued.

5. Countries outside the US not follow US CDC guidelines and instead, create their own.

Persons should also be made aware that senior CDC staff, like the senior members of the US military, often after leaving government service go work for big pharmaceutical firms with high salaries.


PLEASE, Go see this movie and if you can, go when you can ask questions of the persons who made it.
No it doesn't, and this is utter rubbish.

PLEASE, stop spreading disinformation.
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:46 AM
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There is no autism epidemic that needs explanation.
Wrong. The adjusted incidence has been climbing steadily for the last few decades. It is only slightly explained by changes in diagnosis.

From around 1:10000 (ca. 1985) to 1:65-1:100 (today) is not a diagnostic issue.
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:55 AM
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Wrong. The adjusted incidence has been climbing steadily for the last few decades. It is only slightly explained by changes in diagnosis.

From around 1:10000 (ca. 1985) to 1:65-1:100 (today) is not a diagnostic issue.
Cite? If you're going to throw facts around, at least back them up for us to see for ourselves.
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:56 AM
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Wrong. The adjusted incidence has been climbing steadily for the last few decades. It is only slightly explained by changes in diagnosis.

From around 1:10000 (ca. 1985) to 1:65-1:100 (today) is not a diagnostic issue.
Where's the source for your data?
  #21  
Old 06-15-2016, 11:02 AM
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Wrong. The adjusted incidence has been climbing steadily for the last few decades. It is only slightly explained by changes in diagnosis.

From around 1:10000 (ca. 1985) to 1:65-1:100 (today) is not a diagnostic issue.
Um... What? Back in 1985, they didn't even have a decent diagnostic toolkit. It wasn't until 1987 that the DSM even contained a diagnostic checklist, or indeed considered autism a general mental illness; prior to that, it was referred to as "infantile autism". Most people didn't even know that autism was a thing prior to Rain Man. Do you have any evidence other than personal incredulity to back up your claim that it's "not a diagnostic issue"?

Also, good to see that pretty much nobody here has bought into the bullshit this movie is slinging. For anyone not convinced?

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skept...audulent-film/

Stop it. Just stop. This isn't funny any more. You're wrong and you're hurting people. Mostly your children, sometimes other people's children. Being anti-vaxx in this day and age should be about as socially acceptable as being pro-children-smoking, for exactly the same reasons. If I had a friend who was giving cigarettes to their 5-year-old, you can damn well be sure I'd shame them, both privately and publicly.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 06-15-2016 at 11:05 AM.
  #22  
Old 06-15-2016, 11:05 AM
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Wrong. The adjusted incidence has been climbing steadily for the last few decades. It is only slightly explained by changes in diagnosis.

From around 1:10000 (ca. 1985) to 1:65-1:100 (today) is not a diagnostic issue.
Here and here among hundreds of similar articles and studies.

Somewhere between 2/3rds and all of the rise in autism diagnosis are the result of the expansion of the austistic spectrum (where previous disorders were considered seperate from autism are now within the autistic spectrum), the de-stigmatization of autism (resulting in non-reporting and what were once called generic "mental disability" conditions) resulting in more accurate reporting, increase vigilance for the symptoms of autism which results in more diagnosed cases from people who otherwise wouldn't be classified as autistic, and a much greater tendency to report very mild cases.

It's not unlikely that there's no rise in autism at all when these factors are controlled for, and if there is, it's very small compared to the claims of an autism epidemic.
  #23  
Old 06-15-2016, 11:07 AM
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A vaccine is a solution which contains the corpses of a virus. Think of it like a juice with hacked up limbs in it. Your body's guards look at the limbs and memorize the tattoos, armbands, etc. that identify the enemy so that, in the future, they'll know to take them out.

There's nothing a vaccine - necessarily - must do that would be anything different than straight up giving someone a disease. If getting the measles doesn't give you autism, why would giving you dead measles give you autism?

The basis for the work which showed the "link" between autism and the measles vaccine was that there was a chemical in the juice which was harmful. That chemical no longer is a part of the vaccine. So...what exactly is supposed to be giving a child autism?

It's a shame that your child has this disease, but it's simply a happenstance that you noticed around the same time as he had the shot. Autism starts to show leading into the second year (generally) and the MMR vaccine is usually given in the 1-2 year. If the vaccine was given in the 4th year, children would still be diagnosed with autism in the second year, and measles would be more common and children would die from it.

Autism is a developmental disorder. While we're not completely clear on what causes it (there may be multiple factors) it appears that while the child is developing in the womb, there is an early, excessive growth of the brain, which later causes there to be too many neuronal connections, and this causes a cascading failure of the brain to be able to develop correctly. Due to the cascading effect, it takes a couple of years before the difference become noticeable. But, you can generally track it back to the womb, where the is sufficient data from that time period.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16330725
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12865374
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17964254

We do think that there is some form of toxin that causes autism (a teratogen), but while we are not sure which one, we do seem to be certain that it is in the mothers body, during development of the embryo. Our best way to replicate the development cycle of autism in rats is to give mothers valproic acid, and this causes the disease in their children.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15749245or

It may come down that there is some preservative, some chemical in wall paint, an adhesive, or whatever that we determine has been causing most cases of autism, but whatever it is, it's something which got into your wife's body, not your child's.

And that's very sad, and if it makes you want to eat organic, I wouldn't fault you, but you should remember that, in the whole, we have been steadily decreasing the incidence of physical and mental developmental problems that existed in the centuries before. We've reduced lead poisoning, dysentery, cholera, dwarfism, measles, etc. While we may be introducing new toxins into our environment every year, that's because we're putting them in to replace ones that were worse.
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:10 AM
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What everyone else has already said.

Seriously, OP?
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:13 AM
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Persons should also be made aware that senior CDC staff, like the senior members of the US military, often after leaving government service go work for big pharmaceutical firms with high salaries.
If the idea is that we can't trust the CDC because they are corrupted by the lure of money, keep in mind that the reason Andrew Wakefield falsified the data on the study that started all this was to discredit another vaccine, in hopes that the vaccine he had a financial interest in would be adopted instead.

If there is anyone who is willing to let children get sick and die in order to make money, it is Wakefield. I wonder if he mentioned that in the movie.

There is no link between vaccination and autism.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:17 AM
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PLEASE, Go see this movie and if you can, go when you can ask questions of the persons who made it.
This is the equivalent of asking me to go see the newest Loose Change video, or a 'documentary' on the Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy or Moon Landing Hoax. Sorry, but not interested in more ridiculous CT tripe. I did see some reviews of the 'movie' as well as some commentary on it when it was going to be shown at the Tribeca Film Festival, and it was everything I figured it would be. I mean, freaking Andrew Wakefield directed this abortion....that's all anyone who has any understanding of this subject needs to know about it really to know it's not worth the time to see.
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:28 AM
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Dude, if you have to believe in some nonsensical conspiracy theory, can't you at least pick a relatively harmless* one like "the moon landing was a hoax"?

*(Harmlessness not guaranteed if you are stupid enough to confront Buzz Aldrin in person)
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:42 AM
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There's nothing a vaccine - necessarily - must do that would be anything different than straight up giving someone a disease. If getting the measles doesn't give you autism, why would giving you dead measles give you autism?

The basis for the work which showed the "link" between autism and the measles vaccine was that there was a chemical in the juice which was harmful. That chemical no longer is a part of the vaccine. So...what exactly is supposed to be giving a child autism?

Right, it's a conspiracy theory, so it's not about finding out what's real. It's about deciding you've made up your mind, and now you'll twist the facts to your preconceived notions.

Anti-vaxxers used to say that it was the thymerisol in vaccines that caused it. It's a mercury-based preservative, and mercury is scary. But they're ignorant about the differences between ethyl and methyl mercury, and the amounts used in vaccines. The amount of bio-available mercury you'd get from a vaccine would be somewhere around the same as if you ate a quarter of a tuna sandwich.

But the idiots and their histrionics refused to use vaccines with thymerisol, so we removed them from vaccines anyway 20 years ago. And since then, the raise in autism diagnoses have only gone up. Removing thymerisol had no effect whatsoever.

Now a person who was honestly interested in finding out the truth might say "huh, I was really convinced it was thymerisol, and yet it wasn't. Maybe I should learn more about this or rethink it"

But no, they're full in on conspiracy theories, so they just rush to the next point ignoring the fact that you destroyed one of the premises of their beliefs, the same way that moon hoaxers or any other conspiracy theorist will do.
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:46 AM
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It is true that there is no established...no suggested...not even a theoretical link between vaccines and autism.

That said, there's only one person on earth who we know as an established fact is the least trustworthy on this idea: Andrew Wakefield. It's been proved in court that he made up the idea in the first place for money -- the same motive he imputes to others in the film. He admitted it, if memory serves.
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:55 AM
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*(Harmlessness not guaranteed if you are stupid enough to confront Buzz Aldrin in person)
Gotta love Buzz. He went to my high school before West Point. He gave a talk back there a few years ago.
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:58 AM
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Urbanredneck seems unaware that a vast amount of vaccine research has not been funded by or conducted under the auspices of the Centers for Disease Control.

The reason that "Vaxxed" makes such a fuss over the "CDC coverup" is not just the mistaken impression that a link was found between MMR vaccination and autism in a subset of black children (it wasn't - the alleged connection disappeared under more rigorous statistical analysis and never made sense in the first place). A major goal of antivaxers engaged in this hoopla is to discredit the CDC, which is a highly respected source of information about infectious disease and vaccination. If enough people can be taught to distrust and dismiss the CDC, antivaxers think its pro-vaccine message will suffer as well.

Urbanredneck also repeats "pharma shill" nonsense. Worldwide, about 2% of drug company revenues come from vaccines. Vastly greater amounts are made from drugs treating infectious diseases and their complications. If Big Pharma really wanted to boost profits, it'd stop making vaccines and wait for the big bucks to roll in from all the stuff it could sell to treat millions of new cases of polio, measles and other dangerous diseases.

Which sometimes makes me wonder if the real conspiracy is a subterfuge whereby Pharma interests secretly subsidize antivaxers, hoping that people will desert vaccines so that disease incidence can skyrocket. Profit!!!
  #32  
Old 06-15-2016, 12:04 PM
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1. That there should be serious research made about the link between the MMR vaccine and autism done by major scientific bodies both inside and outside the US that examines autism of both vaccinated and un-vaccinated children. We should not just rely on the American CDC.

2. Their should be additional studies looking at a possible link between an increase in autism of black children especially boys when vaccinated according to CDC guidelines.
As others have pointed out, there's been studies, frankly TOO many studies, about this. And I say too many, because we're going back over this stuff because of this conspiracy theory and wasting resources here that could be spent elsewhere. Bottom line, vaccines have decades of science behind them, they work. Maybe some have some side effects, as almost any treatment does, but seeing a correlation between the onset of autism symptoms, is sort of like blaming the middle school your daughter just started for making her into a whore, when it's really just that she's just starting to show interest in boys because she's beginning puberty.

Moreso, I think Penn and Teller's bit on this does well explaining the implications further (I can't look it up since I'm at work, but it's easy to find it on youtube just search them and vaccines). Even IF it caused autism in some cases, which would obviously still a small risk, if I were a parent, I'd still take that risk of autism on my child over the much more real threat of diseases that vaccines protect against.

Worse, some of these diseases that were well under control in most of the developed world have started making a come back due to ignorant parents not vaccinating their kids. It'd be bad enough if it were just the unfortunate kids of ignorant parents, but there are some kids who legitimately can't (immune disorders, major health issues, etc.) or who actually did get it but it just wasn't all that effective on them, and now THEY'RE at risk too. It's killing herd immunity and it's hurting kids who aren't able to make these decisions themselves.

If you have questions, ask your pediatrician. Hell, ask multiple pediatricians. You're trusting that person with the life of your child in every other way, they have years of edcuation and, in all likelihood, years of experience practicing too. Are you really going to take a documentary maker's word over your pediatrician?

Quote:
3. That parents should be allowed to opt out of CDC vaccination guidelines and instead, be allowed to let their children be vaccinated when they are older and be allowed to be vaccinated with single does vaccines for each separate illness.
I am very much bothered by government mandated vaccination, not because I doubt them, I just have major issues with the government requiring I or my potential future kids being injected with anything. Public schools really muddy that up, and to that extent I can tollerate it since, really, at this point, the onus is on anti-vaxxers to prove their case, so if they don't like it, they can find a private school and pay for it.

Either way, I'd rather see these things enforced socially, since that's what will actually fix it. Pediatricians should be providing relevant information to parents and eventually refuse to keep seeing patients that are unvaccinated. Day cares not accepting kids that aren't vaccinated. Hell, parents probably learn pretty quick if other kids' parents are anti-vaxx and can restrict their kids from playing with them.

But that said, waiting for kids to get older defeats the purpose. Kids' immune systems are weakest when they're youngest, and the longer they have protection, the safer they are. We need as many people protected as much as possible to maximize herd immunity. And, really, parents make literally every other medical decision for kids, and vaccination is one of the most important ones. Why is it okay to trust parents with all those other ones, but suddenly we need to let the kids decide when it comes to vaccines?

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4. Congress should repeal the legislation that shields big pharma companies from being sued.
What legislation? As pointed out above, they've BEEN sued, and there's just no evidence. It's not a conspiracy, it's not big pharma lining the pockets of congress. Look up the cases and verify it yourself, don't just take that guy's word for it.

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5. Countries outside the US not follow US CDC guidelines and instead, create their own.
They do. The US doesn't dictate these guidelines to other countries. Hell, many of them are far more strict about getting kids vaccinated that the US is.

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Persons should also be made aware that senior CDC staff, like the senior members of the US military, often after leaving government service go work for big pharmaceutical firms with high salaries.
Why is this relevant? Is this an implication that, because they're former military, it's some kind of government conspiracy? Retired high ranking officers often get big jobs at major firms because they have clout and they have marketable management experience. Having done government contracting for years, I saw tons of military officers retire then get cushy, well-paying jobs in the private sector in major corporations. Similarly, I've seen government employees 14s, 15s, and SES, retire and get the same thing because, again, they have relevant experience. How should the CDC be any different? They have relevant management experience related to medicine. They can only cannibalize eachother so much. I'm sure there's some backroom dealing, but I'm more inclined to think that's related to fasttracking a drug approval or something, not due to cover-up of vaccines and autism.
  #33  
Old 06-15-2016, 12:07 PM
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Urbanredneck seems unaware that a vast amount of vaccine research has not been funded by or conducted under the auspices of the Centers for Disease Control.
Not exactly. He claims that he has read the opposing info and the previous threads we've had on the subject which have most certainly contained all the information people have brought up in this thread. What we seem to have here is a case of deliberate ignorance-a refusal to take in any information that contradicts his beliefs. Reason is useless in a case like this.
  #34  
Old 06-15-2016, 12:12 PM
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Even IF it caused autism in some cases, which would obviously still a small risk, if I were a parent, I'd still take that risk of autism on my child over the much more real threat of diseases that vaccines protect against.
Ah, but they haven't had to make that decision up until recently. They get to be free riders on herd immunity. They benefit from the collective immunity from all the rest of the parents vaccinating their kids, while avoiding the (nonexistant) danger to their own kids. This makes them even more selfish.

But of course in areas where you have a whole bunch of idiots trying to do this - usually in neighborhoods with a lot of Whole Foods stores and the restaurants all have a gluten free menu - then you actually drop below herd immunity and now vanquished diseases are actually making their way back.
  #35  
Old 06-15-2016, 12:18 PM
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It's not unlikely that there's no rise in autism at all when these factors are controlled for, and if there is, it's very small compared to the claims of an autism epidemic.
The single refutation is that if autism diagnoses are what has increased, the differential diagnoses would have declined. That hasn't happened. The various forms of retardation and deficit autism might be confused with remain largely steady.

Yes, the pattern of autism diagnoses has shifted over the last couple of decades as the spectrum is redefined, and the arguments rage over degree and classification and whether "mild Asperger's" and PDD-NOS are even part of the spectrum. But in the end, the number of children diagnosed with a spectrum condition has risen sharply - on the order of 100-fold - and changes in diagnosis and diagnostic patterns accounts for only a small part of that rise.

There are one hell of a lot of children on the spectrum, far more than ever before. It makes little difference exactly how much the change is.

More importantly, parents, family and "experts" who make all their hay trying to discern a cause are wasting irreplaceable time. When there's a car accident, you don't stand around for two days trying to figure out what caused it while the victims bleed out. Too many anti-vaxxers, especially the original generation, are those who didn't take enough right steps in the critical early days, and with a child who is now permanently disabled, spend their time looking for someone to blame.
  #36  
Old 06-15-2016, 12:35 PM
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Seriously?

You really must have drunk the koolaid, to still believe this nonsense, after the very thorough public debunking it has taken!

Since this is clearly something you gotta WANNA believe, I'm unsure what the purpose of your thread is exactly?

Spreading dangerous medical misinformation?

Because if the existing evidence isn't enough, I'm not sure what's left?

Or were you hoping to find allies among us? (Surely not!)

Thinking your opinion would be enough to sway us? (That's even harder to believe !)
  #37  
Old 06-15-2016, 01:14 PM
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The single refutation is that if autism diagnoses are what has increased, the differential diagnoses would have declined. That hasn't happened. The various forms of retardation and deficit autism might be confused with remain largely steady.
Do you have a cite for that? IIUC, what you are saying is that there used to be 100 kids, five of whom would be diagnosed as autistic and five would be diagnosed as something else. Thus a total of five autism diagnoses and five diagnoses of "something else". Nowadays of the same 100 kids, 10 would be diagnosed as autistic and five as the same "something else", for a total of 10 diagnoses of autism plus five diagnoses of "something else". Is that what you mean?

If so, keep in mind that diagnoses of autism can be added to other diagnoses, and not always replace them. That is, a change in the way autism is diagnosed can result in kids being diagnosed as autistic and "something else". Not merely instead of "something else". IYSWIM.

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  #38  
Old 06-15-2016, 01:36 PM
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My understanding of autism might be a little dated, but I thought researches and professionals were moving towards a spectral definition of autism. At one extreme we have Kanner's autism, like the title character in Rainman; on the other we have people who like their socks bunched up at the ankles rather than pulling them up a bit. Somewhere in the middle we have a line, below which a person is disabled and above that a person is not disabled.

Again, with my dated information, what autism is has not be determined, any statement as to cause would be speculative.
  #39  
Old 06-15-2016, 04:18 PM
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Urbanredneck, your reasoning in the OP is as faulty as that of people who claim that the intensifier use of "literally" is "incorrect." You're being jumped on here for exactly the same reason those folks are jumped on in other threads.

Just something to think about--do you REALLY want to emulate their unscientific worldview?

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 06-15-2016 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 06-15-2016, 04:31 PM
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Urbanredneck, if you are wrong, your advice will cause people to die from preventable illnesses. Think about that before you rush to judgement.
  #41  
Old 06-15-2016, 04:44 PM
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For 3, children shouldn't have to suffer because their parents don't know how vaccines work. However, as a compromise, I would be able to live with such an exemption provided the children are homeschooled so they don't risk bringing potentially deadly diseases into mainstream schools.
Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right?
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Old 06-15-2016, 04:48 PM
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Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right?
Firstly, decent people don't just worry about their own kids. Secondly, vaccines provide very, very good protection but, like all medicines, they don't provide 100% protection 100% of the time. There is a chance, however small, that my kid could catch measles from your unvaccinated kid even after my kid has been vaccinated. The risk may be very small, but it's not yours to put on me. Especially since the thing you're scared of is nonsense.
  #43  
Old 06-15-2016, 04:50 PM
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Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right?
This statement would make sense if everyone at risk could be vaccinated (not true - for example those who are immunosuppressed via innate or acquired immune system defect may be unable to receive vaccines or have them work optimally. This includes people being treated for cancer and autoimmune diseases), and if vaccination was 100% effective (nope -like every effective medical intervention, it's not perfect. Sometimes vaccination in perfectly healthy individuals does not "take" for whatever reason).

Thus we depend on herd immunity through high vaccine uptake to protect those who are still susceptible to disease.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 06-15-2016 at 04:53 PM.
  #44  
Old 06-15-2016, 04:54 PM
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Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right?
You should look up herd immunity. Your understanding of how vaccinations and herd immunity are seriously flawed, and you don't actually understand what the real world risks are...risks the anti-vaxxers are forcing all of society to incur in the same clueless way you are by making statements like this.

ETA: Or, what Jackmannii said.

Last edited by XT; 06-15-2016 at 04:54 PM.
  #45  
Old 06-15-2016, 04:54 PM
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I have been looking at other countries vaccination schedules.

Here is an article on Why Japan banned the MMR vaccine.

Japan also has some vaccine controversies.

I looked at Denmark and on their recomendation for vaccinations they say kids can get the MMR at 15 months however they dont require it until age 4. I also dont see a vaccine for chickenpox recommended.

This site, shows that all the European countries have their own schedules.
  #46  
Old 06-15-2016, 04:55 PM
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Why are you worried? If your kid is vaccinated your protected right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

More importantly, if you do actually convince someone to not immunize their child, you're raising that child's risk of getting the measles. It might not be my child, but I'm not a psychopath, so I tend to be opposed to attempts to get people killed, regardless of whether I have any blood relationship to them or not.
  #47  
Old 06-15-2016, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I have been looking at other countries vaccination schedules.

Here is an article on Why Japan banned the MMR vaccine.

Japan also has some vaccine controversies.

I looked at Denmark and on their recomendation for vaccinations they say kids can get the MMR at 15 months however they dont require it until age 4. I also dont see a vaccine for chickenpox recommended.

This site, shows that all the European countries have their own schedules.
NONE of the links you posted refer to autism as a reason for the banning or reschedule. As for those complication it is more reasonable to realize that there were issues with the MMR vaccine related on how the Japanese handled the vaccine as no other nation found the complications to be much less than the alternative.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 06-15-2016 at 05:34 PM.
  #48  
Old 06-15-2016, 05:42 PM
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I have been looking at other countries vaccination schedules.
None of those links have anything to do with your OP. Do you care to attempt to support your OP or are you just throwing things against the wall to see what sticks?

None of it will, but that's kind of besides the point.
  #49  
Old 06-15-2016, 05:50 PM
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Here is an article on Why Japan banned the MMR vaccine.
And here is an article showing that reported autism cases increased after the ban was put in place.

"A study of more than 30,000 children in Japan should put the final nail in the coffin of the claim that the MMR vaccine is responsible for the apparent rise in autism in recent years.

The study shows that in the city of Yokohama the number of children with autism continued to rise after the MMR vaccine was replaced with single vaccines. “The findings are resoundingly negative,” says Hideo Honda of the Yokohama Rehabilitation Center....With his colleagues Yasuo Shimizu and Michael Rutter of the Institute of Psychiatry in London, UK, Honda looked at the records of 31,426 children born in one district of Yokohama between 1988 and 1996. The team counted children diagnosed as autistic by the age of 7.

They found the cases continued to multiply after the vaccine withdrawal, ranging from 48 to 86 cases per 10,000 children before withdrawal to 97 to 161 per 10,000 afterwards. The same pattern was seen with a particular form of autism in which children appear to develop normally and then suddenly regress – the form linked to MMR by Wakefield."


Japan lags behind other developed nations in vaccine coverage and as a result has experienced multiple recent outbreaks of diseases like measles and rubella. They've also been sluggish about promoting HPV vaccination based on fears that have been repeatedly debunked elsewhere.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 06-15-2016 at 05:51 PM.
  #50  
Old 06-15-2016, 06:01 PM
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Correction of my last post:

As for those complications it is more reasonable to realize that there were issues with the MMR vaccine related on how the Japanese handled the vaccine as no other nation found the complications to be worse than the alternative.
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