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  #1  
Old 08-07-2001, 04:36 PM
keno keno is offline
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Re: last summer's shooting death in NYC of an immigrant. The victim was in the foyer of his apartment building, surrounded by four or five policemen who proceeded to fire 47 rounds when he reached for his wallet. I surmise that in that crowded space, the police were firing in panic, and that it is quite easy to empty the magazine of a semi-automatic pistol in under two seconds. Anyone know how quickly you can empty a Glock? (DC police carry Glock 9s, I assume the NYPD blue do too). Not talking about carefully aimed discharge -- just blind panic firing.
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  #2  
Old 08-07-2001, 04:55 PM
Turbo Dog Turbo Dog is offline
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The Glock 17 has a cyclic rate of about 800 spm. So theoretically, with a standard 17 shot magazine, that works out to right around 2.5 seconds to empty out at optimum speed. Realistically though, it will take a little more time, probably in the neighborhood of 4 seconds, give or take a little.
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  #3  
Old 08-07-2001, 04:55 PM
lno lno is offline
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Four NYPD officers, 41 rounds. Not 5 and 47. (Unless there's a grassy knoll around.)

Unfortunately I do not have statistics on the rate of fire of a Glock, nor definitive information as to what handgun the NYPD use. I felt a need to correct the inaccuracies in the OP, though.
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  #4  
Old 08-07-2001, 04:59 PM
Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
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I have no idea. I checked Glock's website but I couldn't even find a Glock 9 listed (unless you mean a Glock 9x19 which is actually called a Glock 17...don't ask since I don't know why they call it that either).

In the end for a semi-auto pistol I suppose it depends on how fast you can pull the trigger and I would imagine that would have a lot to do with how hard the trigger pull was (5.5 lbs. for a Glock 17), how strong your hand is, how hard of a recoil the gun has and how fast your reactions are.

I only point all of that stuff out as food for thought since I've never fired the thing. I've only fired a semi-auot pistol a few times and wasn't trying to unload as fast as I could so my experience is very limited. Most of the guns I have fired have been rifles and revolvers (and not even too many of those).
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  #5  
Old 08-07-2001, 05:01 PM
UncleBeer UncleBeer is offline
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It could probably be done in a couple seconds. Here's the record holder for speed shooting.
  • Eight shots on a single target in 1.00 seconds (S&W Model 627 revolver).
  • Eight shots, two each on four targets in 1.06 seconds(S&W Model 627 revolver).
  • Six shots, reload and six more for a total of twelve on a single target in 2.99 seconds (S&W Model 625 in .45ACP).
So yeah, I'd say the Glock could easily be emptied in two seconds.
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  #6  
Old 08-07-2001, 05:32 PM
Padeye Padeye is offline
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High speed shooting and accurate high speed shooting are two different things. As UB says the records are held buy shooters using S&W revolvers who have only recenty surpassed the speed of Ed McGivern shooting similar revolvers in the thirties. Self loaders can only go as fast as the action can cycle.

I got a chance to see a shooter using a full automatic Glock pistol. It was in a submachine gun match and though his Glock didn't fit the rules - no shoulder stock - no one felt he would have an unfair advantage. As it turns out the Glock was at a severe disadvantage. The rate of fire was so high and the pistol so uncontrollable that he only managed to get a very small percentage on target. The first shot might be a hit but the rest of the burst would go over the target. He went through nearly seventy round of ammunnition trying to knock down a dozen steel plates. Those of us shooting more controllable weapons were able to complete that course with a fraction of the time and ammunition that he used.
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  #7  
Old 08-07-2001, 05:55 PM
doreen doreen is offline
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I don't think the NYPD carries Glocks, but 4 seconds sounds about right to me. I know I can empty a Glock in about ten seconds - in a different situation than the OP's blind panic . I had to use a New York trigger ( modified for a harder pull),was being scored and most importantly, never got the hang of not letting the trigger return all the way.
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  #8  
Old 08-07-2001, 06:03 PM
cmburns cmburns is offline
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A Glock 17 is a model, a Glock 9 doesn't mean anything AFAIK, other than maybe shorthand for any Glock that uses 9mm rounds (9mm x 19mm rounds, to be more precise). I don't know if Glock model numbers have any significance, the ones I'm familiar with are the 17, 19, and 21, which seems to suggest a certain pattern. It's not related to the ammunition they use, though. Several Glock models, including the 17, come in both 9mm and .40 S+W versions. The NYPD standard issue is a Glock 17 chambered for 9mm rounds. That doesn't mean that is what every officer in the NYPD carries, and I've got no clue about those involved in that shooting. The Glock 17 has a reputation for being easy to "overtrigger", and the 9mm round has a reputation for not having a lot of stopping power, requiring more than one shot to put someone down. I can't speak to the validity of either of those perceptions, and certainly not whether they had anything to do with the seemingly excessive shot count in this incident. I can say from personal experience that firing a semi-auto quickly requires very little skill. I have only been shooting for a year or so but could easily empty a 10 shot magazine in a couple of seconds. Of course, only the first two or three shots would actually hit what I was aiming at, but just firing quickly isn't hard at all.
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  #9  
Old 08-07-2001, 06:20 PM
sewalk sewalk is offline
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The Glock 18 (which is the fully automatic version of the Model 17) has a cyclic rate of fire of 1100-1300 rpm, depending on ammunition used. Therefore, the maximum rate of fire for the Model 17 would be somewhat lower than that, probably by a factor of three or four. The 10lb-pull trigger commonly found in weapons issued by the NYPD (aka New York trigger) would most likely slow this down a little further. Even so, I have little doubt that they fired an average of ten round in less than three seconds. Until you've ever had shooting at you (or think someone was shooting at you, same thing in this respect) you have no idea how long three seconds can be. If the officers had been truly panic-stricken, they would have emptied their weapons completely. The Glocks you and I buy today may only hold ten rounds, but 17 and 19 round magazines are still the norm for law enforcement and government agencies.
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  #10  
Old 08-07-2001, 06:23 PM
keno keno is offline
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If, as Turbo Dog states,
The Glock 17 has a cyclic rate of about 800 spm.
doesn't that work out to be 1.275 secs (800 /60 = 13.33 sps,
17 s/13.33 sps = 1.275

As for 4-seconds realistically, I think the other posts indicate that in a panic mode -- and even under controlled target shooting according to Uncle Beer -- it sounds like you could easily empty the clip in under two seconds.
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  #11  
Old 08-07-2001, 07:07 PM
Turbo Dog Turbo Dog is offline
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Right. I automatically doubled the number without explanation (I really do need to remember to elaborate more sometimes when I post). It's a basic rule of thumb whenever you start getting into cyclic rates above 600 being applied to a semi-auto weapon. A cyclic rate on a semi-auto is, for all practical purposes, a theoretical number. A weapon can fire that fast at absolute perfect conditions. Put a Glock in a vise, stick a timed solenoid on the trigger and you can get the cyclic rate out of it. Unless you have very advanced training you aren't going to get that fast. Someone like Padeye and some of the others in here who are competitive shooters could, I'd wager, get very close, but for the average person, they just don't have the handling and timing ability. As far as a panic situation, it's hard to say. Some people can panic fire like hell. Some actually shoot slower.

What I meant by realistically, is off the OP. It's what the average person can do, for effect. If actually trying to hit a target, an average person needs a smidge more time to get close.

Sorry for any confusion... it's what I do best though at times
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  #12  
Old 08-07-2001, 07:19 PM
Sam Stone Sam Stone is offline
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Cyclic rate is really irrelevant here, because even a cop in a panic is not going to try and pull the trigger as fast as physically possible - he's going to fire at what feels like the fastest controllable speed. Remember, there is recoil involved, and some form of aiming.

I don't know if the NYPD uses Glocks, but assuming it's some kind of automatic pistol, a rapid-fire at a target would probably be on the order of 1-3 shots per second.
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