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  #1  
Old 11-30-2016, 12:07 PM
Shinna Minna Ma Shinna Minna Ma is offline
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Security clearance in the U.S. armed services

Is the ability to obtain a security clearance a requirement for entry into the U.S. armed services? If this is not done before the recruit begins boot camp, what happens if the recruit is unable to obtain a clearance? Is s/he kicked out of the service? What level security clearance do recruits start out with?
  #2  
Old 11-30-2016, 12:23 PM
Chefguy Chefguy is offline
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No, and none, to answer your two main questions. The military is more concerned with your criminal record in the recruiting process.

Other than a tour with Diplomatic Security, I didn't need a clearance during the other 19 years I served. Some specialties do require clearances, however, which will be granted after a background check is done. In the Navy, folks in the nuclear field may need one, people who are linguists, etc. But your run of the mill deck ape doesn't. The same applies to other services, as well. Some positions are very sensitive, but most aren't.
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Old 11-30-2016, 12:26 PM
Omar Little Omar Little is offline
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There's no reason for an enlisted person to have a security clearance. They are not making decisions based upon classified information...they follow orders. They don't ask why.
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Old 11-30-2016, 12:42 PM
watchwolf49 watchwolf49 is offline
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Many jobs in the military don't expose the the enlisted person to classified material, so there's no reason to spend the additional money to more fully investigate the person's past. I had to have my clearance in place two months after I joined for tech school, so there are reasons for few people to need a clearance right away.
  #5  
Old 11-30-2016, 12:43 PM
friedo friedo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar Little View Post
There's no reason for an enlisted person to have a security clearance. They are not making decisions based upon classified information...they follow orders. They don't ask why.
There are plenty of enlisted jobs that require clearances.
  #6  
Old 11-30-2016, 12:48 PM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is offline
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Security clearance in the U.S. armed services

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar Little View Post
There's no reason for an enlisted person to have a security clearance. They are not making decisions based upon classified information...they follow orders. They don't ask why.


But they may ordered to handle or care for classified information or classified technology if their post requires it. As said in an earlier post by Chefguy, clearance goes with need goes with post and job specialty, so some junior enlisted can have security clearances IF their billet requires it. (PFC Manning, anyone?)

Last edited by JRDelirious; 11-30-2016 at 12:51 PM.
  #7  
Old 11-30-2016, 12:57 PM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefguy View Post
Some specialties do require clearances, however, which will be granted after a background check is done.
When my stepbrother-in-law was an active Marine (just as he was finishing his basic training, IIRC), he was selected to serve on the guard detail at Camp David. They ran an extensive background check on him (including requiring him to document every time he'd traveled outside of the U.S., and every job he'd had as a teenager), but I don't know exactly what level (if any) of actual security clearance he received.
  #8  
Old 11-30-2016, 01:09 PM
Chefguy Chefguy is offline
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Originally Posted by friedo View Post
There are plenty of enlisted jobs that require clearances.
Already covered and not the question. Clearances are not required as a rule at the time of enlistment. I suppose there could be an exception if someone was recruited from a sensitive field to fill a sensitive billet right away, but that would be so rare as to not be worth this discussion.
  #9  
Old 11-30-2016, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
When my stepbrother-in-law was an active Marine (just as he was finishing his basic training, IIRC), he was selected to serve on the guard detail at Camp David. They ran an extensive background check on him (including requiring him to document every time he'd traveled outside of the U.S., and every job he'd had as a teenager), but I don't know exactly what level (if any) of actual security clearance he received.
Category 2 Yankee White.
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Old 11-30-2016, 01:19 PM
moldmonkey moldmonkey is offline
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I was a linguist in the Army. They did the investigation while I was at language school. We weren't shown anything classified until the next school. Anyone who failed to get a clearance was assigned a job based on the needs of the Army.
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Old 11-30-2016, 01:19 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by Chefguy View Post
Already covered and not the question. Clearances are not required as a rule at the time of enlistment. I suppose there could be an exception if someone was recruited from a sensitive field to fill a sensitive billet right away, but that would be so rare as to not be worth this discussion.
The entire military is not run like the Navy. Most of us were guaranteed a particular MOS prior to signing our contracts. I was a navigator in a scout helicopter when I joined. My MOS required a Secret clearance, no exceptions. If I was unable to get a clearance then I would not have been able to enlist with that MOS. There are quite a few MOS in the Army that require a clearance. Many more that do not. That is MOS specific not assignment specific.
  #12  
Old 11-30-2016, 01:28 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is online now
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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
The entire military is not run like the Navy. Most of us were guaranteed a particular MOS prior to signing our contracts. I was a navigator in a scout helicopter when I joined. My MOS required a Secret clearance, no exceptions. If I was unable to get a clearance then I would not have been able to enlist with that MOS. There are quite a few MOS in the Army that require a clearance. Many more that do not. That is MOS specific not assignment specific.
Similar to the AF. I was guaranteed a certain AFSC (AF for MOS) before I enlisted. However, I didn't receive my clearance BEFORE I enlisted. In fact, I was through basic, tech school, and on to my first assignment before my clearance was granted. If my clearance were denied, I would have been downgraded to just "Secret" if I could, or a non-clearance job if I couldn't and then separated out after my enlistment. Almost everyone in the AF has at least a Secret clearance and needs to maintain it to reenlist. Comm guys like me, needed to maintain a TS clearance that NEVER went away, regardless of duty station.
  #13  
Old 11-30-2016, 01:48 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Similar to the AF. I was guaranteed a certain AFSC (AF for MOS) before I enlisted. However, I didn't receive my clearance BEFORE I enlisted. In fact, I was through basic, tech school, and on to my first assignment before my clearance was granted. If my clearance were denied, I would have been downgraded to just "Secret" if I could, or a non-clearance job if I couldn't and then separated out after my enlistment. Almost everyone in the AF has at least a Secret clearance and needs to maintain it to reenlist. Comm guys like me, needed to maintain a TS clearance that NEVER went away, regardless of duty station.
My SF86 was completed prior to going to Basic but I don't know when the clearance was actually approved. It had to be before AIT since we learned some low level classified information there. By the time I went to my first assignment my orders had my clearance listed as Secret. Secret clearances are not that difficult to get.
  #14  
Old 11-30-2016, 02:00 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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I just learned recently that there are certain programs for enlistment of non-citizens that require a full background check, virtually identical to those done for security clearances, be completed prior to accession -- but this does not lead to a security clearance for an enlistee. However, this process applies only to a very, very, very small percentage of enlistees.
  #15  
Old 11-30-2016, 02:05 PM
Oakminster Oakminster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar Little View Post
There's no reason for an enlisted person to have a security clearance. They are not making decisions based upon classified information...they follow orders. They don't ask why.
Bullshit. I was an enlisted aerial photographer. A significant portion of my work was classified. I had a security clearance. It was not about "making decisions based upon classified information", it was about having access to classified material necessary to perform my job. My mission would be to film certain weapons or other objects being deployed from certain aircraft. Sometimes the airplane itself was classified. Sometimes the munition was classified. Sometimes the other objects being deployed were classified. Had specific procedures I had to follow for handling classified film.
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Old 11-30-2016, 02:25 PM
DCnDC DCnDC is offline
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Note it's possible to enter the military as a commissioned officer, e.g. enrolling at a Service Academy, in which case you will very much be rejected for failing to acquire security clearance.
  #17  
Old 11-30-2016, 02:28 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach View Post
My SF86 was completed prior to going to Basic but I don't know when the clearance was actually approved. It had to be before AIT since we learned some low level classified information there. By the time I went to my first assignment my orders had my clearance listed as Secret. Secret clearances are not that difficult to get.
I assume Army by the AIT. When I was in AF basic, everyone who would eventually need clearances all went together from my flight and started the SF86 in a room by ourselves. It was cool because we got out of dorm cleaning or some other such stuff. (Yes, the AF calls them dorms. Don't hate!)

I didn't mean to imply that getting a Secret clearance was hard, just that it would be an option if TS didn't come through (although I had no worries, other then they didn't believe I had no bad marks on my records at all )
  #18  
Old 11-30-2016, 02:30 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar Little View Post
There's no reason for an enlisted person to have a security clearance. They are not making decisions based upon classified information...they follow orders. They don't ask why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
Bullshit
I agree. The first statement shows so little understanding of how the military functions that they should probably not post on the subject in GQ anymore.
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Old 11-30-2016, 02:47 PM
Chefguy Chefguy is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
I agree. The first statement shows so little understanding of how the military functions that they should probably not post on the subject in GQ anymore.
Are you folks even bothering to read the OP? The questions are:

1. Is the ability to obtain a security clearance a requirement for entry into the U.S. armed services?

2. What level security clearance do recruits start out with?

The answer is clearly "no" and "none" (with some exceptions for officers).

Perhaps reading skills should be required in order to post.

Last edited by Chefguy; 11-30-2016 at 02:48 PM.
  #20  
Old 11-30-2016, 02:55 PM
friedo friedo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chefguy View Post
Are you folks even bothering to read the OP? The questions are:
Are you bothering to read what people are replying to? Do you think this statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar Little
There's no reason for an enlisted person to have a security clearance. They are not making decisions based upon classified information...they follow orders. They don't ask why.
is accurate?
  #21  
Old 11-30-2016, 03:00 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is online now
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Originally Posted by Chefguy View Post
Are you folks even bothering to read the OP? The questions are:
What friedo said. I meant "first statement" to distinguish from the statement "bullshit" in my post.

Plus I agree with your answers to the actual OP
  #22  
Old 11-30-2016, 03:01 PM
Chefguy Chefguy is offline
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Originally Posted by friedo View Post
Are you bothering to read what people are replying to? Do you think this statement



is accurate?
He is clearly responding to the OP's question about recruits, not to someone else's post. Leaving out a quote or a descriptive word makes it vague, but not beyond comprehension.
  #23  
Old 11-30-2016, 03:06 PM
Omar Little Omar Little is offline
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Sure there are enlisted soldiers that are given security clearances based upon their assigned responsibilities, but your run of the mill grunt, which our armed services are mostly comprised of, do not require security clearances, and are not a requirement to enlist.
  #24  
Old 11-30-2016, 03:09 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is online now
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Originally Posted by Omar Little View Post
Sure there are enlisted soldiers that are given security clearances based upon their assigned responsibilities, but your run of the mill grunt, which our armed services are mostly comprised of, do not require security clearances, and are not a requirement to enlist.
This is WAY different than your original post, which stated that NO enlisted person needed a security clearance, that enlisted people didn't make decisions, that enlisted people don't use classified information to make decisions, and they simply shut up and follow orders.

Not every single enlisted person in the military is an E-2 private in the Army Infantry
  #25  
Old 11-30-2016, 03:10 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is online now
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Originally Posted by Chefguy View Post
He is clearly responding to the OP's question about recruits, not to someone else's post. Leaving out a quote or a descriptive word makes it vague, but not beyond comprehension.
I'm clearly NOT doing that. Well, clearly to me anyway
  #26  
Old 11-30-2016, 03:10 PM
friedo friedo is offline
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Originally Posted by Chefguy View Post
He is clearly responding to the OP's question about recruits, not to someone else's post. Leaving out a quote or a descriptive word makes it vague, but not beyond comprehension.
You are either being deliberately obtuse or trying to obfuscate matters because you are unwilling to admit that you misinterpreted something.

Omar was talking, specifically, not vaguely, about "enlisted person[s]," not recruits. He talked directly, not obliquely, about their jobs, in the service, as enlisted personnel, "not making decisions based upon classified information" and "follow[ing] orders." Precisely zero percent of the content in Omar post was about recruits, and exactly one hundred percent of it was about on-the-job enlisted personnel, who are already in the armed services, because that's what "enlisted person" means. The information in that post was wrong, and people (including me) corrected it.
  #27  
Old 11-30-2016, 03:11 PM
LSLGuy LSLGuy is online now
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Agree with Chefguy's take on the OP and with everyone's take on Omar being at best confused.

Recruits don't get, have, or as a general rule need clearances. Some folks do get the clearance ball rolling early in their enlistment. Depending on all the obvious details.

"Ability to obtain" is a bit of a misnomer since the only way for you or the service to find out if you can obtain one is to go through the actual process and see what results. To be sure if the answer is "yes, you've qualified for clearance XYZ", but then you choose not to enlist the government is under no obligation to actually bestow the now-useless clearance upon you.


My process as a USAF officer coming in via ROTC went like this as best I recall. ...

In ROTC I was put on the pilot track. Which means that assuming I eventually graduated I'd definitely need some level of clearance.

My whole 2 years in ROTC we did exactly zero towards a clearance. No forms, no investigations, no nothing.

When I was commissioned at graduation? No forms, no investigations, no nothing.

During my year at pilot training? No forms, no investigations, no nothing.

At graduation from pilot training they took those of us going to the "real" USAF and had us fill out paperwork (SF86) to get the appropriate clearance to our upcoming aircraft assignment. The 15% of newly minted pilots staying behind in training command to train more newbie pilots? No clearance for them. No forms, no investigations, no nothing.

6 months and 3 TDY schools later I met with the DIA investigator and once he was satisfied I got my SECRET. Which in the clearance world is a gigantic yawn.

So in all I'd been associated with USAF for about 5 years and about $1mil of taxpayer expense before they found out whether I was trustworthy or was a major commie-sympathizing pinko homo security risk.

If they'd wait that long for folks in my shoes, they're sure not going to spend money on investigations for folks just talking to recruiters about maybe possibly joining the Army. Or even folks who've signed on the dotted line to show up for enlistment.

Last edited by LSLGuy; 11-30-2016 at 03:15 PM.
  #28  
Old 11-30-2016, 03:42 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by Omar Little View Post
Sure there are enlisted soldiers that are given security clearances based upon their assigned responsibilities, but your run of the mill grunt, which our armed services are mostly comprised of, do not require security clearances, and are not a requirement to enlist.
The run of the mill grunt makes up maybe 20% of the Army. There are entire career fields that require a clearance from day one.
  #29  
Old 11-30-2016, 03:45 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by LSLGuy View Post
Agree with Chefguy's take on the OP and with everyone's take on Omar being at best confused.

Recruits don't get, have, or as a general rule need clearances. Some folks do get the clearance ball rolling early in their enlistment. Depending on all the obvious details.

"Ability to obtain" is a bit of a misnomer since the only way for you or the service to find out if you can obtain one is to go through the actual process and see what results. To be sure if the answer is "yes, you've qualified for clearance XYZ", but then you choose not to enlist the government is under no obligation to actually bestow the now-useless clearance upon you.


My process as a USAF officer coming in via ROTC went like this as best I recall. ...

In ROTC I was put on the pilot track. Which means that assuming I eventually graduated I'd definitely need some level of clearance.

My whole 2 years in ROTC we did exactly zero towards a clearance. No forms, no investigations, no nothing.

When I was commissioned at graduation? No forms, no investigations, no nothing.

During my year at pilot training? No forms, no investigations, no nothing.

At graduation from pilot training they took those of us going to the "real" USAF and had us fill out paperwork (SF86) to get the appropriate clearance to our upcoming aircraft assignment. The 15% of newly minted pilots staying behind in training command to train more newbie pilots? No clearance for them. No forms, no investigations, no nothing.

6 months and 3 TDY schools later I met with the DIA investigator and once he was satisfied I got my SECRET. Which in the clearance world is a gigantic yawn.

So in all I'd been associated with USAF for about 5 years and about $1mil of taxpayer expense before they found out whether I was trustworthy or was a major commie-sympathizing pinko homo security risk.

If they'd wait that long for folks in my shoes, they're sure not going to spend money on investigations for folks just talking to recruiters about maybe possibly joining the Army. Or even folks who've signed on the dotted line to show up for enlistment.
All officers in the Army are required to have at least a Secret clearance. I already had mine but someone else in my OCS class was kicked out because his clearance was denied.
  #30  
Old 11-30-2016, 04:07 PM
LSLGuy LSLGuy is online now
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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
All officers in the Army are required to have at least a Secret clearance. I already had mine but someone else in my OCS class was kicked out because his clearance was denied.
I never found out what would have happened to an officer who failed SECRET. I'd assume, as you say, that they'd be useless as tits on a bull and promptly cashiered. But USAF was sure willing to bet on that come.

They had some funny gaps in clearance logic. My fighter squadron was stateside but, like all stateside units, had one or more dedicated wartime destinations in various theaters. One of our E-3 admin clerks wasn't a US citizen. She couldn't have a clearance. She couldn't touch the classified papers the other clerks in the same room worked on. And she couldn't be deployed overseas with us.

Why the hell USAF put her into that deployable clearance-required position when there are thousands of non-deployable no-clearance required admin jobs was a mystery to everyone involved. She was a good worker, but our deployment plans had us going off shorthanded on purpose. Dumb.

Last edited by LSLGuy; 11-30-2016 at 04:10 PM.
  #31  
Old 11-30-2016, 04:13 PM
Omar Little Omar Little is offline
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Man what a bunch of pedantic soldiers we have here. Glad you guys can read my mind. My original post was to the OP regarding people enlisting in the armed services. How many of you super secret probation classified soldiers had to pass a security clearance when signing up as an enlisted soldier?
  #32  
Old 11-30-2016, 04:54 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by Omar Little View Post
Man what a bunch of pedantic soldiers we have here. Glad you guys can read my mind. My original post was to the OP regarding people enlisting in the armed services. How many of you super secret probation classified soldiers had to pass a security clearance when signing up as an enlisted soldier?
As I explained earlier. I did.
  #33  
Old 11-30-2016, 05:07 PM
Rick Kitchen Rick Kitchen is offline
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There's no reason for an enlisted person to have a security clearance. They are not making decisions based upon classified information...they follow orders. They don't ask why.
That's ridiculous. I had a Top Secret clearance when I was an E-5 in the Air Force because I handled classified documents.
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Old 11-30-2016, 07:11 PM
Loach Loach is offline
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That's ridiculous. I had a Top Secret clearance when I was an E-5 in the Air Force because I handled classified documents.
Most Military Intelligence MOS require a TS from E-1 on up as do many in the commo field.
  #35  
Old 11-30-2016, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by moldmonkey View Post
I was a linguist in the Army. They did the investigation while I was at language school. We weren't shown anything classified until the next school. Anyone who failed to get a clearance was assigned a job based on the needs of the Army.
Right. Because I was going to language school, I did have to have an extra security interview with this really mean old guy at MEPS prior to enlisting, but he didn't grant a clearance, just made sure I'd probably be able to get one. The special background check during language school was for SCI on top of the TS. Those investigators unearthed stuff about me I'd forgotten. "I lived where, with who? Oh yeah, for like a month."

I seem to recall interrogators with foreign language skills only needed a secret clearance, which as others mentioned, is really easy to get.
  #36  
Old 11-30-2016, 11:06 PM
Wendell Wagner Wendell Wagner is offline
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Whether you need a clearance for your job has nothing to do with whether you make decisions of any kind whatsoever. Nearly everyone with a security clearance (military, civilian government employee, or civilian contractor employee) makes no decisions about the things they're doing. They have no significant influence on what the government is doing. At best, they are lending their technical expertise to solving problems that they are assigned. Making decisions is only for top people. You're given a security clearance if you have to use classified material in your work, and you have to have a background check to determine if you can get that clearance.
  #37  
Old 11-30-2016, 11:10 PM
Snnipe 70E Snnipe 70E is offline
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Note it's possible to enter the military as a commissioned officer, e.g. enrolling at a Service Academy, in which case you will very much be rejected for failing to acquire security clearance.
I went to a Maritime Academy. I passed the lowest level of security clearance at the time, I believe it was confidential. Some of the Naval Science classes used material that had confidential stamped all over it. When I graduated I received my Inactive Reserve commission as an Ensign without any up grade in my clearance. Those that fail the confidential security status were not eligible for the Naval Science option. That meant they lost out on $125 a trimester from the Navy, and after graduation they could be drafted in to the Army.

Last edited by Snnipe 70E; 11-30-2016 at 11:11 PM.
  #38  
Old 11-30-2016, 11:15 PM
Bear_Nenno Bear_Nenno is online now
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I am a run-of-the-mill grunt. Enlisted infantry. I've had a security clearance since the day I joined.

As to the factual answer to the OP:
Quote:
Is the ability to obtain a security clearance a requirement for entry into the U.S. armed services?
No. However, it is a requirement for entry into certain jobs within the U.S. armed services.

Quote:
If this is not done before the recruit begins boot camp, what happens if the recruit is unable to obtain a clearance?
The recruit submits the application for a security clearance before shipping off to Basic. If the recruit has any obvious disqualifiers, then the recruiter would not even bother putting the future soldier into that kind of job.
By the time basic training is completed, the security clearance investigation might be complete, it may still be in progress, or it might have come back DENIED. If the recruit is unable to obtain a clearance, then he/she will have to reclassify into a different job title. The recruit will then be shipped off for training in that new job instead of the one that required a clearance.
If the clearance investigation is still in progress, the recruit will either be allowed to continue training with an Interim clearance or will have to wait it out in a holdover status. The recruit may be held at his/her basic training company as a holdover, just kind of helping out and doing menial tasks around the company until the clearance is finally approved. Less likely, but I think possible, is that the recruit will ship out to the school and go into a holdover status on that end. Either way, they're not going to start school until the clearance or an interim is granted. And if, at any time, the clearance is denied or revoked, the recruit will have to change jobs in accordance with the needs of the service.

Quote:
Is s/he kicked out of the service?
By the time that recruit has completed basic training, the military has already spent about a hundred thousand dollars to train him/her. It would be a poor investment strategy to just kick them out. They will most likely be retained in the service, but sent off to be trained in a different job.
So, if someone joined the Army to be a 35F - Intelligence Analyst, he would need a Top Secret SCI clearance. The recruiter will ask some basic questions to determine if the recruit is likely to be granted the clearance. The recruit will submit the application and ship off to basic training. After graduating basic training, the application is still in progress. So, the recruit stays there at Ft. Jackson, SC after graduation and hangs out for several more weeks helping out the drill sergeants and generally being bored out of his mind. A couple more weeks pass and the application comes back DENIED due to very bad Credit Score or something. At that point, the soldier is not eligible to be a 35F, so the Army changes his orders to 92G - Culinary Specialist. The soldier is then put on a bus to Ft Lee, VA to become a cook instead of going to Ft. Huachuca to be an intel analyst.

Quote:
What level security clearance do recruits start out with?
Depends on the job. For most enlisted recruits, it's none. For most intel-related jobs, many cyber jobs, some commo jobs and (I'm guessing here) probably nuclear-related Navy jobs will start out with Top Secret. Others, like special forces and such, will start out with a Secret. The vast majority of initial enlistees, however, will not start out needing any clearance at all.
  #39  
Old 12-01-2016, 12:39 AM
Shinna Minna Ma Shinna Minna Ma is offline
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Originally Posted by levdrakon View Post
Those investigators unearthed stuff about me I'd forgotten. "I lived where, with who? Oh yeah, for like a month."
Two of my daughters were in the Israeli army. One of the questions they were asked was the names of their elementary school teachers. It took a few phone calls back to their friends in the states to help them with that one.
  #40  
Old 12-01-2016, 01:38 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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Originally Posted by Omar Little View Post
There's no reason for an enlisted person to have a security clearance. They are not making decisions based upon classified information...they follow orders. They don't ask why.
All three parts of this post are completely incorrect. First off, as mentioned by other posters, there are plenty of fields in the military where enlisted members require and have security clearances. Examples are: Yeoman, Personnel Specialist, Intelligence Analyst, Operations Specialist, various workers who prepare, operate, and maintain classified equipment.

Yes, there are enlisted personnel making decisions based on classified material. Of course, a Sergeant Major or Master Chief Petty Officer is not going to be commanding a brigade-sized element; however, there may be issues which require immediate action.

Finally, a service member who just obeys orders without asking why can end up in the infamous "hurt locker" (reduction in grade, incarceration, punitive discharge). At the risk of "Godwinizing" the thread, remember that "just following orders" is not an excuse for unlawful action. In fact, it's incumbent upon the person carrying out the order to be sure that the order is lawful.
  #41  
Old 12-01-2016, 01:44 AM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is online now
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Originally Posted by Shinna Minna Ma View Post
Two of my daughters were in the Israeli army. One of the questions they were asked was the names of their elementary school teachers. It took a few phone calls back to their friends in the states to help them with that one.
When my stepbrother-in-law (mentioned earlier) was told that he needed to provide the information on earlier employers (with dates), and trips outside of the U.S., he was given 24 hours to provide that information. It happened that my wife and I were visiting his mother and stepfather (my wife's father) in Florida that day...and that they were in the process of moving from one house to another. So, a lot of documentation was packed up in moving boxes, and I recall several long phone calls that evening, as they worked on re-creating the dates of various events.
  #42  
Old 12-01-2016, 07:21 AM
Loach Loach is offline
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
When my stepbrother-in-law (mentioned earlier) was told that he needed to provide the information on earlier employers (with dates), and trips outside of the U.S., he was given 24 hours to provide that information. It happened that my wife and I were visiting his mother and stepfather (my wife's father) in Florida that day...and that they were in the process of moving from one house to another. So, a lot of documentation was packed up in moving boxes, and I recall several long phone calls that evening, as they worked on re-creating the dates of various events.
When I was going for my Top Secret I had to name my neighbors. We had recently moved there and there and it was an area where the houses were far apart. I didn't know them, they didn't know me. It caused the investigator some difficulty but there was nothing I could do about it. He was a contractor and kind of an idiot anyway.

None of the times I went for just a Secret did I ever talk to an investigator including when I first enlisted.
  #43  
Old 12-01-2016, 07:36 AM
AK84 AK84 is online now
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Originally Posted by LSLGuy View Post
During my year at pilot training? No forms, no investigations, no nothing.

At graduation from pilot training they took those of us going to the "real" USAF and had us fill out paperwork (SF86) to get the appropriate clearance to our upcoming aircraft assignment. The 15% of newly minted pilots staying behind in training command to train more newbie pilots? No clearance for them. No forms, no investigations, no nothing.

6 months and 3 TDY schools later I met with the DIA investigator and once he was satisfied I got my SECRET. Which in the clearance world is a gigantic yawn.

So in all I'd been associated with USAF for about 5 years and about $1mil of taxpayer expense before they found out whether I was trustworthy or was a major commie-sympathizing pinko homo security risk.

If they'd wait that long for folks in my shoes, they're sure not going to spend money on investigations for folks just talking to recruiters about maybe possibly joining the Army. Or even folks who've signed on the dotted line to show up for enlistment.
Were'nt you like a nuclear bomb dropper?
Surely when you qualified for that there were further clearances.
  #44  
Old 12-01-2016, 08:20 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is online now
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Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner View Post
Nearly everyone with a security clearance (military, civilian government employee, or civilian contractor employee) makes no decisions about the things they're doing. They have no significant influence on what the government is doing. At best, they are lending their technical expertise to solving problems that they are assigned. Making decisions is only for top people.
Where do you people come up with this stuff? Almost ALL levels make decisions everyday. Security clearance has NOTHING to do with making decisions.
  #45  
Old 12-01-2016, 10:08 AM
Wendell Wagner Wendell Wagner is offline
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Speak for yourself. My observation is that nearly all employees make no significant decisions about what's going on. They merely carry out the jobs that they've been charged with.
  #46  
Old 12-01-2016, 10:10 AM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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Originally Posted by DCnDC View Post
Interesting. Thanks.
  #47  
Old 12-01-2016, 10:13 AM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
Were'nt you [LSLGuy]like a nuclear bomb dropper?
Surely when you qualified for that there were further clearances.
Yes, his specific MOS was Bomb Dropper, Nuclear. cite: Could You "Slim Pickens" a Bomb In?
  #48  
Old 12-01-2016, 10:17 AM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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[sorry for multiple posts...]
Say a PFC POW is released, and is found after debriefing to have revealed, on his own volition and not under duress, I don't know, operating instructions for a mortar or something.

To _me_, the field manual cannot be released (I've tried ). It is thus, at some level, classified.
  #49  
Old 12-01-2016, 11:09 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is online now
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Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner View Post
Speak for yourself. My observation is that nearly all employees make no significant decisions about what's going on. They merely carry out the jobs that they've been charged with.
And you think that every supervisor spells out EXACTLY how each of their subordinates should accomplish those jobs?
  #50  
Old 12-01-2016, 11:11 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is online now
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Originally Posted by Leo Bloom View Post
[sorry for multiple posts...]
Say a PFC POW is released, and is found after debriefing to have revealed, on his own volition and not under duress, I don't know, operating instructions for a mortar or something.

To _me_, the field manual cannot be released (I've tried ). It is thus, at some level, classified.
Could be a FOUO (For Official Use Only) manual. Not to be released to the general public, yet not "classified" information.
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