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Old 03-04-2017, 01:28 PM
boffking boffking is offline
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Why do so many credit card chip readers still not work?

A lot of stores now have the equipment to run a chip credit card, but the chip readers still don't work. The deadline to have them running was in 2015. Why is it taking so long to actually get the readers to work? I thought the stores would be on top of this, since retailers are now held liable for fraud involving magstripes.
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Old 03-04-2017, 01:48 PM
Weisshund Weisshund is offline
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I am seeing a lot of stores that have the chip reader taped off with little paper hand written signs
"No Chip"

I just tell the cashier, sorry no sale then, your system appears defective.

I have mine set up so it's chip + pin + token
Should make it at least a little inconvenient for someone to steal
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Old 03-04-2017, 02:17 PM
Amateur Barbarian Amateur Barbarian is offline
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Because just putting in the reader is only one step, like putting a video phone on a pair of copper wires. It needs the whole support system back to the bank, and programming, and all that.
  #4  
Old 03-04-2017, 02:53 PM
bibliophage bibliophage is offline
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The "deadline" having passed in 2015 doesn't make swipe-only terminals illegal. It just shifted liability for fraud from the card issuers to the retailer. (The deadline for pay-at-the-pump fuel dispensers isn't until 2020). Before 2015, the cost of credit card fraud was eaten by the banks that issue the cards. After that, the banks will only eat the cost if the store has fully switched to the chip-reading technology. Stores that haven't made the transition now have to eat the cost of fraud themselves.

Some stores have decided not to make the switch and continue using swipe-only readers, presumably because they have decided the cost to update the machines is more than what they'll lose to fraud. Another concern is that chip transactions tend to take longer than swipes and the retailer doesn't want to slow down the line.

Other stores have gone to the expense of installing new terminals that are physically capable of reading the chips but still only process swipes. Usually that's because the whole system, chip reader plus all the software and communications components to support it, has to be certified by an industry group before it can actually be used. Currently there is a huge backlog in the certification process.
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Old 03-04-2017, 04:24 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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I got to be an early adopter of the system, having it in place and taking chips in May of 2015. By, "got to", I mean I didn't have a choice, my merchant services provider told me to give them $1500 for a new piece of equipment if I was to continue to use them for my cc processing.

This was quite a bit of fun, as I lost hundreds of dollars in tips and sales due to errors on the new system.

It was not until early 2016 that we had most of the bugs worked out.

Then they messed with stuff again, and I couldn't take debit cards for almost a month.

Once I got that worked out, I could take debit cards again, but I have to walk customers through the transaction, as if they follow the instructions on the screen, then it will beep at them nastily and cancel the transaction.

I haven't had any issues in a few months (as long as people follow my instructions, and not follow the instructions on the screen [I sometimes almost get in arguments with customers when they point out the the machine is telling them differently]), but using a chip is quite a bit slower, and requires much more effort on the part of the customer to check out.

Some people are angry that they have to put in the PIN. I try explaining that that is set by their bank, not by me, but it dos not matter, they either don't remember it, or they don't want me to know what it is (they punch it in, but in theory, I could watch and see the numbers they enter), or they are just exasperated about the amount of work involved in checking out.


I've been here over 4 years, and have not had a single case of fraud I would have had to eat, and I doubt I will get one in the future (I do dog grooming, people like their pets, ya know), but I have eaten around or maybe more than a thousand dollars in losses due to errors in the changeover, not to mention being out the $1500 for the new equipment.

So, why doesn't everyone have the system yet? I could guess, but it is most likely because it isn't worth the hassle. If I knew what I was going to go through, I would have refused and gone to someone else at the beginning.

It could also be that that their cc processor is not up to date. The store itself may be perfectly fine with using the equipment, but if the software isn't on it, it's not going to take the chip. The software, BTW, comes from the CC processor, not from the store.
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Old 03-04-2017, 06:01 PM
Derleth Derleth is offline
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Wow. I honestly cannot imagine the kind of mentality which would have a problem using a chip-and-pin setup as a customer, but is otherwise not disabled. A group home resident would be different, but the people k9bfriender is talking about are presumably considered competent.

The only way I can understand it is as a passive-aggressive power play, as in "I don't want to put forth the effort to do this, so I'm going to make you do it, because I briefly have this tiny bit of control over your life."
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Old 03-04-2017, 06:14 PM
wolfpup wolfpup is offline
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The alleged consumer difficulties with chip-and-PIN is supposedly the major reason that the US lags so astoundingly behind the rest of the world in adopting chip cards, like ten years behind. Many countries have been widely using chip cards for a decade or so, along with RFID somewhat more recently. Magstripes have been only a backup for years if they're allowed any more at all.
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Old 03-04-2017, 06:41 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derleth View Post
Wow. I honestly cannot imagine the kind of mentality which would have a problem using a chip-and-pin setup as a customer, but is otherwise not disabled. A group home resident would be different, but the people k9bfriender is talking about are presumably considered competent.

The only way I can understand it is as a passive-aggressive power play, as in "I don't want to put forth the effort to do this, so I'm going to make you do it, because I briefly have this tiny bit of control over your life."
It is something different, it is something new.

Many of my clients are older.

Most of my clients are trying to hold a dog in one hand.

And, it is complicated.

If you have a debit card, once I've put the info in on my side, it is now your turn to...

1. Press F1 to accept. (The F1 key, not the spot on the screen above the F1 key where it say's accept, it's not a touch screen.)

2. Press F1 to add a tip amount, F2 for tip percentage, or F4 to skip the tip. (Once again, the actual keys, not the spot above them, it's not a touch screen.)
2a. if leaving a tip, enter the amount, and press the green button.

3. Put the card in the bottom, chip first. The card slides in about half way, this confuses many people, as some only want to slide it in until the chip is covered, and some seem insistent that they are going to get the whole card in there.

4. Now, the screen will say 1.US Credit 2. US Debit. On this screen, you must press 01 and then enter. If you do anything else, if you don't put the leading "0" (which is not displayed on the screen), or you try to put in "02" instead of "01" it will loudly beep 6 times, and we get to start over. You have about 6 seconds on this step before it times out and we have to start over.

5. Press F1 one last time to accept the charges. (The key, not the screen.) (Oh, and yeah, there's an "F" key on the keyboard, to the left of the "0", pressing that and the "1" key is not what I meant either.)

6. If you are with some banks, you are done, and I will have a slip for you to sign, if you are with other banks, then you now need to put in your PIN.

This is in contrast to the previous system, where they handed me their card, and I handed it back to them 10 seconds later with the slip to sign.

Many of my clients are good sports about this, and even comment on how they are finally getting used to the system, and they'll even ask me not to walk them through it, to see if they have it down yet. Some are just confused, their big complaint is that everyone of the systems is different. Some, as I said, are paranoid that I'm going to read them putting in their PIN and then... profit, I guess. Some are just paranoid entirely. I had one person whose husband had removed the chip from the card because he said it could be used to track them.

I have quite a number of older of elderly clients as well, who have difficulty reading the screen, or even with punching buttons.
  #9  
Old 03-04-2017, 06:58 PM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
The alleged consumer difficulties with chip-and-PIN is supposedly the major reason that the US lags so astoundingly behind the rest of the world in adopting chip cards, like ten years behind. Many countries have been widely using chip cards for a decade or so,
More than that. We've been using them since the early 90s, so make that 25 years or so.
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:06 PM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
It is something different, it is something new.

Many of my clients are older.

Most of my clients are trying to hold a dog in one hand.

And, it is complicated.

If you have a debit card, once I've put the info in on my side, it is now your turn to...

1. Press F1 to accept. (The F1 key, not the spot on the screen above the F1 key where it say's accept, it's not a touch screen.)

2. Press F1 to add a tip amount, F2 for tip percentage, or F4 to skip the tip. (Once again, the actual keys, not the spot above them, it's not a touch screen.)
2a. if leaving a tip, enter the amount, and press the green button.

3. Put the card in the bottom, chip first. The card slides in about half way, this confuses many people, as some only want to slide it in until the chip is covered, and some seem insistent that they are going to get the whole card in there.

4. Now, the screen will say 1.US Credit 2. US Debit. On this screen, you must press 01 and then enter. If you do anything else, if you don't put the leading "0" (which is not displayed on the screen), or you try to put in "02" instead of "01" it will loudly beep 6 times, and we get to start over. You have about 6 seconds on this step before it times out and we have to start over.

5. Press F1 one last time to accept the charges. (The key, not the screen.) (Oh, and yeah, there's an "F" key on the keyboard, to the left of the "0", pressing that and the "1" key is not what I meant either.)

6. If you are with some banks, you are done, and I will have a slip for you to sign, if you are with other banks, then you now need to put in your PIN.

This is in contrast to the previous system, where they handed me their card, and I handed it back to them 10 seconds later with the slip to sign.

.

Huh? Granted we don't have the tip part over here, but after you've put the amount on your side, the process here is :

1)Enter your card

2)Dial your PIN

3)Hit the green key. The end. Less than 10 seconds, certainly?


What are all these steps for? Is it actually typical of how you use a smart card in the USA, or is something specific to your business? If it's typical, are there other countries where it's similarly complicated?
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:13 PM
igor frankensteen igor frankensteen is offline
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Oh, calm down.

I fix this kind of technology for my meager living, and I can tell you at least ONE explanation for the delays: changes like this require significant up front costs, and those are much higher for retailers who put off updating their entire computer support systems, during the incredible economic downturn that hit them almost a decade back. I still see lots of national customers using computers over fifteen years old, and some wont support what software is available to run the chip reading terminals.

Add on to that, that the support programmers for retailers are NOT unified, so each one has to write software to drive the stuff, and you have another clue.

Complain if you want, and guess at laziness or "cheapness," but if you do that, you've never been in a real business decision role.
  #12  
Old 03-04-2017, 07:18 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Huh? Granted we don't have the tip part over here, but after you've put the amount on your side, the process here is :

1)Enter your card

2)Dial your PIN

3)Hit the green key. The end. Less than 10 seconds, certainly?


What are all these steps for? Is it actually typical of how you use a smart card in the USA, or is something specific to your business? If it's typical, are there other countries where it's similarly complicated?
Can't say anything about other countries, but I can speak of other systems I have used.

The grocery store is not as complex, but it still takes much longer than it used to with the swipe. My dentist has the same system that we do, but they handle the cards behind the counter, a huge no-no according to my bank. The dollar store down the street from me has an even more finicky system, and it will have to start over for any of several possible user errors, one of which will actually complete the sale without tendering payment, forcing the whole order to have to be voided and re-rung. I know that office depot's system usually works pretty well, I can't think of any issues I've had with it.

But, I use a credit card, not a debit card, so I've never had to enter a PIN. (I'd be a little concerned if I did, in fact, as I don't think I actually have a PIN for my credit card.) With a credit card on my system, you just skip step 4, and there will never be a PIN to enter, instead I will have a slip for you to sign.

The only extra step that I can think of that would be specific to my business would be the tip part, and that's not worth giving up for convenience.
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Old 03-04-2017, 07:20 PM
wolfpup wolfpup is offline
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Part of the complexity here sounds like bad design. Regarding the steps you've outlined:

1. Yes, it's standard to confirm the amount.

2. This should only occur on restaurant payments, nowhere else. It's really no different than writing the tip on a restaurant bill, with the added convenience that it can calculate a percentage-based tip for you if you want.

3. Inserting the card is the same for every card reader I have ever encountered. Seems to me that after you've done it once (or five times, for the exceptionally dim) you know how to do it forever after.

4. Totally unnecessary and outrageously bad design. In every POS system I have ever seen, the merchant establishes the transaction type (debit or credit) before the customer interaction even begins.

5. Why is this necessary when you already confirmed the amount in step 1? Totally redundant, and I've never seen this.

6. Wow! If you have to present a slip for them to sign, why the hell did they just have to endure steps (1) through (5)?

Actually, even that much is dispensed with most of the time. Here is how I do the majority of my checkouts these days, whether it's credit or debit. I wait for the card reader to display the amount. I touch the card to the reader, and the reader says "Beep!". The cashier hands me my receipt and I walk out.
  #14  
Old 03-04-2017, 07:33 PM
Bear_Nenno Bear_Nenno is offline
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I just enter a 4 digit PIN on my phone and hold it over the reader. I havent used the actual card in over 6 months. Never going back to that mess.
  #15  
Old 03-04-2017, 07:45 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
Part of the complexity here sounds like bad design. Regarding the steps you've outlined:

1. Yes, it's standard to confirm the amount.

2. This should only occur on restaurant payments, nowhere else. It's really no different than writing the tip on a restaurant bill, with the added convenience that it can calculate a percentage-based tip for you if you want.
Or dog groomers who accept tips. Strangely, this is one of the things that confounded my merchant services provider quite a bit. It took several tries to get them to set it up to accept tips. And, anytime they push through a software update, I need to call them up and have them rebuild the software again to accept tips.

Interesting that you mention restaurants, as they said that it was a restaurant package build that they were using so that I could take tips.
Quote:
3. Inserting the card is the same for every card reader I have ever encountered. Seems to me that after you've done it once (or five times, for the exceptionally dim) you know how to do it forever after.
You'd think that, wouldn't you. I've haven't had anyone snap their card in half yet, but I am surprised by that, with as much force as some people use trying to jam it in there.
Quote:
4. Totally unnecessary and outrageously bad design. In every POS system I have ever seen, the merchant establishes the transaction type (debit or credit) before the customer interaction even begins.
Oh, even more than you think. I do start the transaction, the very first step, by selecting credit, then entering the amount of the charge. I can only run cards as credit, I do not actually have the ability to run cards as debit. Most of the time, on step 4, if you type "02" it'll beep at you then, but sometimes it goes through to the end, then declines the card with a "serv error". That's when I say "Did you press '01' or '02'", and they say "'02', it's a debit card." Which is why my walkthrough line for that step is "Now, on this screen, you're gonna wanna push '0'...'1'...and then the green button."<beat>"Anything else will make it angry." If they hesitate, I mention that they have about 3 seconds left before we have to start over. If they are old or particularly distracted, I usually just reach over and hit the buttons myself.

I've spent hours on the phone with merchant services trying to get them to remove the screen (as it was at first not allowing me to take debit cards at all), but they insist that it has to be there, and cannot be removed. If you have a good argument against that, I would love to hear it and use it against them next time I call them.
Quote:

5. Why is this necessary when you already confirmed the amount in step 1? Totally redundant, and I've never seen this.
Well, now it's total amount, with tip, I guess, so lets them confirm that everything is in order.
Quote:
6. Wow! If you have to present a slip for them to sign, why the hell did they just have to endure steps (1) through (5)?
Well, if they put in their PIN, then they don't need to sign. Unless they didn't put in a tip, in which case, it prints a tip line receipt that needs a signature.
Quote:
Actually, even that much is dispensed with most of the time. Here is how I do the majority of my checkouts these days, whether it's credit or debit. I wait for the card reader to display the amount. I touch the card to the reader, and the reader says "Beep!". The cashier hands me my receipt and I walk out.
Don't get me started on NFC. That was a huge bane at the outset. If someone had a tap based card, and tried to swipe it, it would come close enough to the sensor to register that it wanted it, but not close enough to actually read it, so it would trip an error, and clear the tip off. Even if they knew they had a tap card, if it wasn't aligned perfectly, it would cause an error, and strip the tip off. And if the Tip is stripped off, the only way to fix it at that time is to stop them from completing the transaction, clear it and start over, which is an annoying way to get someone's tip. I lost hundreds of dollars to those cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno
I just enter a 4 digit PIN on my phone and hold it over the reader. I havent used the actual card in over 6 months. Never going back to that mess.
I can take applepay or google wallet too, but I have only had 2 clients use that so far, so I don't know exactly how well it works.
  #16  
Old 03-04-2017, 08:15 PM
wolfpup wolfpup is offline
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Thanks for the interesting background info. On these particular points....
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I've spent hours on the phone with merchant services trying to get them to remove the screen (as it was at first not allowing me to take debit cards at all), but they insist that it has to be there, and cannot be removed. If you have a good argument against that, I would love to hear it and use it against them next time I call them.
Sorry, no, I have no suggestions. If they can't accept the argument that it's obviously a useless nuisance then there's nothing you can say to nitwits that have no concept of software design. I mean, you could ask them what the hell the system is supposed to do if you've already set it up as a credit card transaction and the customer selects "debit". Obviously one of you is wasting their time, and if you don't even take debit, then you're both wasting your time. "Don't ask the user totally unnecessary stupid questions whose answers make no difference whatsoever -- or stupid questions to which you already know the freaking answer" is kind of implicit in Software Design 101!* I'm just appalled at how badly designed this stuff is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Don't get me started on NFC. That was a huge bane at the outset. If someone had a tap based card, and tried to swipe it, it would come close enough to the sensor to register that it wanted it, but not close enough to actually read it, so it would trip an error, and clear the tip off. Even if they knew they had a tap card, if it wasn't aligned perfectly, it would cause an error, and strip the tip off. And if the Tip is stripped off, the only way to fix it at that time is to stop them from completing the transaction, clear it and start over, which is an annoying way to get someone's tip. I lost hundreds of dollars to those cards.
Seems odd to me. There are many occasions when I have to use the chip and PIN method instead of the tap either because the amount is over the tap-n-go limit or just a random security requirement and I have never heard the telltale double beep of a read error or rejected tap when doing this. All the readers I've ever seen have the card slot on the bottom end and the proximity sensor up at the top, and it doesn't seem to sense the card unless it's very close or touching and held there for a moment. But you'd have far more experience with that stuff than I ever have. Maybe the same morons who built the software also designed the card readers.

Last edited by wolfpup; 03-04-2017 at 08:18 PM.
  #17  
Old 03-04-2017, 09:09 PM
Melbourne Melbourne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post

4. Totally unnecessary and outrageously bad design. In every POS system I have ever seen, the merchant establishes the transaction type (debit or credit) before the customer interaction even begins.
No tips in Aus. At the Dentist, they will take my card, insert it correctly, and select cheque, savings or credit, before handing the reader back to me so that I can enter the PIN and press OK.

At the shops, I have to rotate the card myself, then select* cheque/savings/credit, then not press OK (I'm offered the choice), then enter PIN, then press OK. These screens are touch sensitive.

*Or is it the other way around? enter then select? Can't remember.
  #18  
Old 03-04-2017, 09:21 PM
Lord Feldon Lord Feldon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Then they messed with stuff again, and I couldn't take debit cards for almost a month.
My mom's employer was not able to run debit cards as credit cards for several months. Between people who didn't know their PINs and people whose banks charged fees for transactions that didn't go through the credit card system, she got to deal with several tantrums each day.
  #19  
Old 03-04-2017, 10:22 PM
Spiderman Spiderman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
It took several tries to get them to set it up to accept tips. And, anytime they push through a software update, I need to call them up and have them rebuild the software again to accept tips.

Interesting that you mention restaurants, as they said that it was a restaurant package build that they were using so that I could take tips.<snip>

Oh, even more than you think. I do start the transaction, the very first step, by selecting credit, then entering the amount of the charge. I can only run cards as credit, I do not actually have the ability to run cards as debit. Most of the time, on step 4, if you type "02" it'll beep at you then, but sometimes it goes through to the end, then declines the card with a "serv error". That's when I say "Did you press '01' or '02'", and they say "'02', it's a debit card." Which is why my walkthrough line for that step is "Now, on this screen, you're gonna wanna push '0'...'1'...and then the green button."<beat>"Anything else will make it angry." If they hesitate, I mention that they have about 3 seconds left before we have to start over. If they are old or particularly distracted, I usually just reach over and hit the buttons myself.

I've spent hours on the phone with merchant services trying to get them to remove the screen (as it was at first not allowing me to take debit cards at all), but they insist that it has to be there, and cannot be removed. If you have a good argument against that, I would love to hear it and use it against them next time I call them.<snip>

Don't get me started on NFC. That was a huge bane at the outset. If someone had a tap based card, and tried to swipe it, it would come close enough to the sensor to register that it wanted it, but not close enough to actually read it, so it would trip an error, and clear the tip off. Even if they knew they had a tap card, if it wasn't aligned perfectly, it would cause an error, and strip the tip off. And if the Tip is stripped off, the only way to fix it at that time is to stop them from completing the transaction, clear it and start over, which is an annoying way to get someone's tip. I lost hundreds of dollars to those cards.
I don't know who you're using, but I'd look into another provider if I were you. They sound awful; especially the first sentence in this post - software updates repeatedly break your setup? That's totally unacceptable.
  #20  
Old 03-04-2017, 10:27 PM
Saint Cad Saint Cad is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Huh? Granted we don't have the tip part over here, but after you've put the amount on your side, the process here is :

1)Enter your card

2)Dial your PIN

3)Hit the green key. The end. Less than 10 seconds, certainly?


What are all these steps for? Is it actually typical of how you use a smart card in the USA, or is something specific to your business? If it's typical, are there other countries where it's similarly complicated?
No it's because the software (at least the human interface part) is written very stupidly.
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Old 03-04-2017, 10:55 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Huh? Granted we don't have the tip part over here, but after you've put the amount on your side, the process here is :

1)Enter your card

2)Dial your PIN

3)Hit the green key. The end. Less than 10 seconds, certainly?


What are all these steps for? Is it actually typical of how you use a smart card in the USA, or is something specific to your business? If it's typical, are there other countries where it's similarly complicated?
No, that's a REALLY bad POS system, and I have never run into that many complications.

The biggest hurdle is that I still have to ask, most of the time, "Chip or swipe?" Because so many places still haven't converted, although in my area it's getting better. Then, sometimes, I fumble and put the wrong end of the card in. I kinda wish they'd designed them with the chip in the middle, so it didn't matter. But that's me being an idiot, not really a system problem. (Maybe it's a design problem, though.)

It does, as others have mentioned, take longer than a swipe transaction, even when I know it's a chip and I get the card in correctly the first time. It's a little annoying in that sense. 20 more seconds of awkward small talk with the cashier and feeling the line grow behind me are not kind to my Social Anxiety disorder.
  #22  
Old 03-04-2017, 11:31 PM
Muffin Muffin is offline
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Globe and Mail from about a year and a half ago:
Quote:
So why not simply employ the full chip-and-pin system in the U.S., rather than just the chip? The answer, it seems, is fear of overwhelming the average American consumer, who uses between four and five credit cards.

“Unless everybody’s all in with the pin system at once, the issuer who goes to pin in advance risks their customers not using the card because they can’t remember their pin,” Mr. Robertson says.

Another reason the U.S. card-issuer market has been reluctant to adopt chip-and-pin technology is sheer complexity. While Canada has a handful of banking players and payment networks, the U.S. has more than a dozen payment networks, and roughly 10,000 card-issuing entities of one kind or another. As such, getting all of them on board for chip-and-pin technology – which helps with stolen cards but is less useful in other areas, such as fraudulent online transactions – has been difficult. The chip technology alone appeared to be a workable compromise.
As far as resistance to new tech goes, it is what it is.

RFID faster than swipe. In Canada the limit is usually $100 per transaction.

Per transaction, chip is slower than swipe, but one hell of a lot more secure, so for a few seconds per transaction that exceeds $100, you avoid the embuggerance of having to replace breached cards. For example, since I started using chip, I have not had any security breach here in Canada, but when I occasionally visit the USA (about dozen times a year) and have to use swipe rather than pin much of the time, I get breached every couple of years. I'm a big fan of chip and pin.
  #23  
Old 03-04-2017, 11:56 PM
minor7flat5 minor7flat5 is offline
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I seem to be the only guy in the neighborhood who uses Apple Pay. I use my watch to pay wherever I can and the checkout person is almost always amazed that it works and how simple it is.

I wish Apple Pay would work in more than one out of three stores—the remainder all have the equipment but it isn't set up right.

When I am at Shoprite, the clerk tells me the total, I double-press the button on the side of my watch, hold it up to the POS terminal, and it beeps. Ten seconds later I am handed a receipt. No hassle.
  #24  
Old 03-04-2017, 11:59 PM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is online now
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Originally Posted by Weisshund View Post
I am seeing a lot of stores that have the chip reader taped off with little paper hand written signs
"No Chip"

I just tell the cashier, sorry no sale then, your system appears defective.
"If you're going that way, could you restock this Tucks? Yeah, it was that same guy. The one with the cape."
  #25  
Old 03-05-2017, 12:42 AM
Bear_Nenno Bear_Nenno is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post

I can take applepay or google wallet too, but I have only had 2 clients use that so far, so I don't know exactly how well it works.
The great thing about Samsung Pay is that it works without NFC. It works fine on the oldest models of mag swipe terminals out there. The newer Samsung models can produce a magnetic transmission that emulates the swiping of a card.
  #26  
Old 03-05-2017, 01:22 AM
Joey P Joey P is offline
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Originally Posted by Bear_Nenno View Post
The great thing about Samsung Pay is that it works without NFC. It works fine on the oldest models of mag swipe terminals out there. The newer Samsung models can produce a magnetic transmission that emulates the swiping of a card.
I looove my Samsung phone for just that reason, but it confuses the ever loving fuck out of cashiers. On the one hand, I think it's funny when I'm waving my phone around their reader and they're saying 'sorry it's not set up yet' [BEEP]. Now, I know they meant it's not set up for Chip, but, the look on their face, when my phone made their janky old machine work. OTOH, I feel kinda dumb when I'm trying to say 'no, I know, but this will work anyways', then it doesn't work anyways. I know it doesn't work at Home Depot or Lowes, and a few other places. It's a software thing though.
(Also, I'm always waiting for that day when some manager or owner comes out wanting to know what I just did to their machine with my phone.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiderman View Post
I don't know who you're using, but I'd look into another provider if I were you. They sound awful; especially the first sentence in this post - software updates repeatedly break your setup? That's totally unacceptable.
I'm not sure if you work with merchant services, sometimes that's just how it is, especially when they're rolling out new software. When they're something big coming out, like Chip and Pin, I get the feeling they bring in temps. Spending half the day with a combination of hold music and Tier 1 tech support is just my life sometimes. And, I did (do?) have a software download the crippled one of my machines. They rolled it back to a 'legacy' version, but said it might still show up from time to time and I'd have to call and get it redownloded. Fortunately, when I told them that that process took hours and if their software is going to take my machine (and me) down for hours every few weeks, that's not acceptable, so they sent me a free Clover machine. That's the one that looks like an iPad (because it's white, but it actually runs Android software).

The funny thing about that is that about once a week someone won't want to sign on the screen because 'it's dirty/germy' and they get mad that we don't have a stylus. All I can think is 'so, you touched everything in the store, you pushed around a shopping cart for 20 minutes, you wouldn't think twice about using a pen or stylus that gets touched by thousands of people every week...but the touch screen is too icky? That's a strange place to draw the line'.


Anyways, @K9, WRT to the request for a Pin coming up. IME, there's usually a button that says Skip or Credit or Cancel (but sometimes that cancels the entire transaction) or Bypass to get past the Pin screen.

Something that would be nice is if all the software/hardware/cc processors would come up with some kind of standards for the customer/cashier facing I/O screens. when waling through a transaction. Do you push cancel for Credit? What about Skip and Bypass? I go to this store every day, then I go to that store and hit the wrong button and have to start over. I understand that each system will have it's own bells and whistles and what not, but maybe just some basics that are the same from one terminal to the next.
  #27  
Old 03-05-2017, 01:27 AM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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Originally Posted by WhyNot View Post
It does, as others have mentioned, take longer than a swipe transaction, even when I know it's a chip and I get the card in correctly the first time. It's a little annoying in that sense. 20 more seconds of awkward small talk with the cashier and feeling the line grow behind me are not kind to my Social Anxiety disorder.
The weird thing is, yes, it's like 10-20 seconds or so everywhere, except for Walgreens. All the Walgreens I've been to have the fastest chip approval system. Like 2-3 seconds. And, so far, they're the only one I've found has that kind of response time. What's up with that?

Last edited by pulykamell; 03-05-2017 at 01:27 AM.
  #28  
Old 03-05-2017, 01:50 AM
Joey P Joey P is offline
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
The weird thing is, yes, it's like 10-20 seconds or so everywhere, except for Walgreens. All the Walgreens I've been to have the fastest chip approval system. Like 2-3 seconds. And, so far, they're the only one I've found has that kind of response time. What's up with that?
It's the software. When we first got ours, it was really slow. Customers would constantly yank their card back out too soon and we'd have to start over, sometimes they'd even do it two or three times, saying things like 'ugh, how is this protecting my security at all' and in my straightest face I'd say 'you have to leave it in (while it says 'leave card inserted') until it says 'Please remove card'. A few months later new software was pushed down that sped it up dramatically. Card goes in, a few seconds later card comes back out.

My understanding is that there's a rolling code type thing going on with the Chip and the bank. In the past, the part of that transaction where both parties decided they were done with that code and picked the next one (or however it worked) happened after you typed your PIN or the cashier confirmed that you signed. I'm sure there where other improvements, but one of them was that all of that now happens at the beginning instead of waiting for any input on the merchant side.
So, that's the long answer as I understand it (and I could be wrong), the short answer is, software improvements.
  #29  
Old 03-05-2017, 02:25 AM
TimeWinder TimeWinder is offline
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I don't know who you're using, but I'd look into another provider if I were you. They sound awful; especially the first sentence in this post - software updates repeatedly break your setup? That's totally unacceptable.
Yeah. Almost none of what you're reporting should be happening, nor does it happen at most retailers with working systems. Get a new bank.
  #30  
Old 03-05-2017, 02:45 AM
Bear_Nenno Bear_Nenno is offline
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I looove my Samsung phone for just that reason, but it confuses the ever loving fuck out of cashiers.
Once the actual terminal was down, so the cashiers were having to swipe the cards through the reader attached to their register monitors. I think you know what I mean; those back up readers connected to the side of the cashier's screen.

She said, "The terminal is down, I'll have to swipe it here". I just reached over and put my phone to the side of her screen. She couldn't believe what happened.
  #31  
Old 03-05-2017, 05:49 AM
Quartz Quartz is offline
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Huh? Granted we don't have the tip part over here, but after you've put the amount on your side, the process here is :

1)Enter your card

2)Dial your PIN

3)Hit the green key. The end. Less than 10 seconds, certainly?
Same here in the UK. The trader enters the amount, then you get the option to add a tip in a restaurant. None of this F1 malarkey. This is typical of chip and pin machines.

Indeed, for small amounts - under £20 - we've gone contactless. Just put your card on the reader, wait for the beep, and that's it.

And they don't cost anywhere near US$1500. Nor is holding a dog in one hand an impediment: most are designed to be used one-handed, the most common case being a woman carrying a child in one arm.
  #32  
Old 03-05-2017, 09:31 AM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
Globe and Mail from about a year and a half ago:

As far as resistance to new tech goes, it is what it is.

RFID faster than swipe. In Canada the limit is usually $100 per transaction.

Per transaction, chip is slower than swipe, but one hell of a lot more secure, so for a few seconds per transaction that exceeds $100, you avoid the embuggerance of having to replace breached cards. For example, since I started using chip, I have not had any security breach here in Canada, but when I occasionally visit the USA (about dozen times a year) and have to use swipe rather than pin much of the time, I get breached every couple of years. I'm a big fan of chip and pin.

As per the quote, part of the problem is merchants and banks get the feeling that a lot of their consumers will be paranoid about RFID/NFC being easily hacked, yet simultaneously find password/PIN security too much to remember so they'd all use "1234".

Also per the quote don't discount the complexity of the US system, where they carry a ton of different "legacy" systems and networks and many clients will flat out refuse to adopt anything that is not backwards-compatible.

Me, if it's an amount below $50 and no tipping involved I'll use cash or, if in my home jurisdiction, my bank-branded debit/ATM card which around here is processed as swipe-and-PIN by virtually all merchants.
  #33  
Old 03-05-2017, 09:31 AM
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Huh? Granted we don't have the tip part over here, but after you've put the amount on your side, the process here is :

1)Enter your card

2)Dial your PIN

3)Hit the green key. The end. Less than 10 seconds, certainly?

What are all these steps for? Is it actually typical of how you use a smart card in the USA, or is something specific to your business? If it's typical, are there other countries where it's similarly complicated?
It has to partly be the system/machine/software provider for that business.

Where I work we have our chip machines set up and working. In fact, if you have a chip in your card it will not permit a payment via swiping.

Our system isn't quite so complicated, although we do have a certain number of people trying to use the screen as a touch screen when it's not.

Here's what typically happens:
1) The customer, trained by years of habit, swipes the card.
2) The machine says "Chip card detected, insert card"
3) Customer inserts card
4) The machine says "processing"
5) Customer bitches about how this all takes longer now.
6) Machine displays total and asks if that's OK
7) Customer hits OK (assuming it is - otherwise they cancel the sale)
8) Customer either enters the PIN, or opts for signature sale
9) Machine processes for awhile longer.
10) Customer bitches again about the increased time
11) Machine tells the customer to remove their card.
12) If a signature is required this is when the machine asks for it.
13) End of transaction

However - this can get further complicated because not everyone wants their total purchase on the one card. Sometimes they're splitting a large purchase between two cards. Or part of the purchase is food stamps or WIC or a gift card (this must be processed first, THEN the customer can use the chip card). Or two people are splitting the bill, so half goes on the first person's card, half on the second. Sometime people pay part of the total in cash or check (or both!) and then put the balance on the card.

One big flaw - if a mistake is made there's no way to cancel out of the transaction, as we could with the swipes, and just start over. We just have to stand there until the transaction times out (Cue more bitching about time).
  #34  
Old 03-05-2017, 09:41 AM
Musicat Musicat is offline
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I like cash better.
  #35  
Old 03-05-2017, 10:00 AM
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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So do a lot of other people. I do a LOT of cash transactions every day.
  #36  
Old 03-05-2017, 10:37 AM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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Huh. My business has been accepting chip cards for about a year. IIRC we paid some upfront fees that were rebated back. It takes twice the time for the machine to complete the transaction, but nobody has complained.

You know you have options as far as who you deal with, right? The company I used to use charged me for receipt paper once. I immediately switched companies. The folks I dropped complained that if I'd asked they would have dropped the fee. Sorry, I shouldn't have to ask.
  #37  
Old 03-05-2017, 11:36 AM
Joey P Joey P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
Huh. My business has been accepting chip cards for about a year. IIRC we paid some upfront fees that were rebated back. It takes twice the time for the machine to complete the transaction, but nobody has complained.

You know you have options as far as who you deal with, right? The company I used to use charged me for receipt paper once. I immediately switched companies. The folks I dropped complained that if I'd asked they would have dropped the fee. Sorry, I shouldn't have to ask.
The company I'm with had free paper. A few months ago they sent out a letter saying that as of the new year they'd start charging for it...I ordered 50 cases. I estimate it last about 7-8 years. Now, that I'm not using that machine very much (since they gave me a Clover terminal), it'll probably last me twice that long.

Also, about 5 years ago they did charge me for paper once. I called them up, they told me since they acquired my account from the other processor blah blah blah. I said 'well that's all well and good, the contract I have says that paper is free, can you fax me a copy of the contract I signed with you' and she said she'd change it back to free paper, and gave me a direct number back to her if it got changed again.
In general, I don't put up with that, but I hate changing processors. It's so much work. I almost did it during the trainwreck of changing over to Chips when they crippled one of my machines but even then I didn't. Sales people get annoyed when I won't switch to them when they can save me a hundred bucks a year (I usually tell them need to save me at least that much per month). It's just that much work on my end to make sure it happens smoothly and retrain everyone.
  #38  
Old 03-05-2017, 01:14 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Originally Posted by TimeWinder View Post
Yeah. Almost none of what you're reporting should be happening, nor does it happen at most retailers with working systems. Get a new bank.
I'm a bit smaller than most retailers, and I am not a retailer, I provide a service, that has tips, so that's caused quite a bit of confusion.

These guys were great for me when I first set up, and they were pretty good for most things, it's just this chip thing has everybody screwed up. I've spoken to peers that use other servicers, and they had just as much difficulty.

The last thing I want to do, after finally getting everything working the way it should be (and having a couple people on speed dial to fix anything that goes wrong), is to switch and start all over with someone else.

In any case, the point was not to hijack the thread with tales of woe, but to explain that it is quite likely that many retailers don't have the chip and pin system working not because of the retailer, but because the whole system is a mess, and it is really something the merchant services, credit card issuers, and banks need to work out.
  #39  
Old 03-05-2017, 05:07 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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Originally Posted by Joey P View Post
It's the software. When we first got ours, it was really slow. Customers would constantly yank their card back out too soon and we'd have to start over, sometimes they'd even do it two or three times, saying things like 'ugh, how is this protecting my security at all' and in my straightest face I'd say 'you have to leave it in (while it says 'leave card inserted') until it says 'Please remove card'. A few months later new software was pushed down that sped it up dramatically. Card goes in, a few seconds later card comes back out.

My understanding is that there's a rolling code type thing going on with the Chip and the bank. In the past, the part of that transaction where both parties decided they were done with that code and picked the next one (or however it worked) happened after you typed your PIN or the cashier confirmed that you signed. I'm sure there where other improvements, but one of them was that all of that now happens at the beginning instead of waiting for any input on the merchant side.
So, that's the long answer as I understand it (and I could be wrong), the short answer is, software improvements.
Yeah, I figured it's either the software or the connection. But the thing is, it's been that way since Day 1 of the chip card readers at Walgreens, and I haven't noticed anyone else catching up. I guess Walgreens must have had efficient software to begin with or something.
  #40  
Old 03-05-2017, 07:14 PM
Melbourne Melbourne is offline
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"Some retailers have already taken steps to reduce transaction times. Walmart, the nationís largest retailer, shaved 11 seconds off its processing time by removing a prompt for customers to confirm a purchase amount, among other steps, according to a spokesman"
  #41  
Old 03-05-2017, 07:33 PM
4kad 4kad is offline
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Not really a fan of the chip because it seems like the transaction process is longer. I like the days when you just swipe and the receipt comes out and you were done.
  #42  
Old 03-06-2017, 11:00 AM
Hari Seldon Hari Seldon is offline
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It is hard for me to recall whether the swipe and sign was faster or slower, but my impression was that it was slower. The chip and pin seems really fast in most places. It is especially nice in restaurants where the waiter brings a hand held machine, fills in the amount, then gives you the machine to insert your card. You are asked to verify, then tip Y/N; assuming Y, $ or %; choose %, say; amount; 18, confirm total, enter PIN, wait 3-5 seconds, then approved; machine prints out two receipts, one for me, one for the waiter. One thing I really appreciate about it is that the waiter never touches your card. At the grocery it is even easier, since there is no tip. Verify amount and tap in PIN. Wait a few seconds, then finished.

Does anyone remember the days that each CC transaction required that the cashier first consult a list of bad cards, then dial up the bank and get a confirmation to write on the bill?
  #43  
Old 03-06-2017, 11:10 AM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon View Post
Does anyone remember the days that each CC transaction required that the cashier first consult a list of bad cards, then dial up the bank and get a confirmation to write on the bill?
Yes. And the first machines gave a confirmation code to write on the slip, like "A4F567".

A friend of mine lost $600 on a sale. His employee accepted a card and wrote the confirmation as, "DECLINE".
  #44  
Old 03-06-2017, 11:10 AM
Machine Elf Machine Elf is offline
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Originally Posted by Musicat View Post
I like cash better.
Thanks. My AmEx card, which I use for everything I possibly can, has accumulated enough Delta frequent-flyer miles to take me to Japan for free several times now; you cash users are subsidizing that benefit for me.
  #45  
Old 03-06-2017, 11:34 AM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Seldon View Post
It is hard for me to recall whether the swipe and sign was faster or slower, but my impression was that it was slower. The chip and pin seems really fast in most places. It is especially nice in restaurants where the waiter brings a hand held machine, fills in the amount, then gives you the machine to insert your card.
Are you outside the US perchance? I haven't had a restaurant here in the US do this yet. (And my chip credit cards don't have PINs associated with them, either. None of my chip transactions have been chip & PIN.)

Last edited by pulykamell; 03-06-2017 at 11:35 AM.
  #46  
Old 03-06-2017, 01:33 PM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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Yes, Hari posts from Montreal. And the point he makes is one of the security features of the chip: it used to be that the waiter took your card away and ran it through the machine, which was one of the ways to use a skimmer to get the card data, out of sight of the card-holder.

Now, the card never leaves our possession, so the opportunity for skimming is greatly reduced.
  #47  
Old 03-06-2017, 02:18 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Yes, Hari posts from Montreal. And the point he makes is one of the security features of the chip: it used to be that the waiter took your card away and ran it through the machine, which was one of the ways to use a skimmer to get the card data, out of sight of the card-holder.

Now, the card never leaves our possession, so the opportunity for skimming is greatly reduced.
Yeah, I've seen the chip and PIN at the table thing with restaurants in Europe ages ago (must have been like 7 years ago or something. We're way behind on this thing.) I haven't seen it in the US yet. Like I said, I don't even have a PIN assigned to my chip card, as far as I know.

Last edited by pulykamell; 03-06-2017 at 02:18 PM.
  #48  
Old 03-06-2017, 02:50 PM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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My recollection is that we got the Chip cards in Canada around 2006.

I don't recall ever hearing anyone griping that the chip readers took longer than the swipe ones; must be the "rush-rush" of American life.
  #49  
Old 03-06-2017, 03:15 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
My recollection is that we got the Chip cards in Canada around 2006.

I don't recall ever hearing anyone griping that the chip readers took longer than the swipe ones; must be the "rush-rush" of American life.
I assume yours aren't actually slow. Like I said, there are some that I've encountered that work comparable to credit card swipes (like 2-3 seconds); the vast majority I've come across are in the 10-20 second range. I mean, to me it feels like half a minute, but I'm adjusting downward, assuming my perceptions are somewhat exaggerated. It's quite noticeable, as in the amount of time it would take me to write out a check (which is something usually regarded as "slow" here.)
  #50  
Old 03-06-2017, 03:19 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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This cite claims an average of 12-15 seconds for chip card transactions in 2015. Apparently, there is some kind of technology called "Quick Chip" that Mastercard has that gets it down to 2.5 seconds, which is what I would say is the same as the speed of a swipe transaction.

USA Today claims that it's 13-15 seconds on average, but that swipe transactions are only about 7 seconds faster. So maybe not as much as difference as I perceive, but it really does feel like it takes ages longer.

Last edited by pulykamell; 03-06-2017 at 03:22 PM.
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