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Old 05-08-2017, 09:40 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Not having sex on the first date

Anna Akana posted a YouTube video on this subject (warning: Akana uses a NSFW word to describe having sex).

As a man, I feel I'm on the outside looking in on this issue. I have never worried that a woman would lose respect for me if we had sex too early in the relationship. And I don't think it's a common concern for other men.

So I'm asking for a female perspective. Why is this a concern for some women?
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  #2  
Old 05-08-2017, 09:47 PM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is online now
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Because there are many men who have double standards when it comes to sex and would refuse to have a relationship with a woman if she has sex with them early.

I don't think it's such a loss for those women but apparently many women would still want to be with a man who has such double standards.
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Old 05-08-2017, 09:59 PM
Channing Idaho Banks Channing Idaho Banks is offline
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There's no way that this could go wrong.
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:00 PM
Warm blood Warm blood is offline
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Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
Because there are many men who have double standards when it comes to sex and would refuse to have a relationship with a woman if she has sex with them early.

I don't think it's such a loss for those women but apparently many women would still want to be with a man who has such double standards.
Bingo. Even more puzzling, how do these men justify judging women for the very same behavior they're eagerly participating in? They grumble about women not putting out and when they do they shame these women for giving them what they want.

If "sluts" didn't exist, misogynists would be miserable and loathe women for depriving them of sex. But then they hate women for making it possible for them to have a sex life. The more I attempt to understand this phenomenon the more I'm confused.
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:35 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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There's no way that this could go wrong.
Why should it? Women are acknowledging this idea exists among women. So how is it a problem to ask them about it?
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:44 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Originally Posted by Warm blood View Post
Bingo. Even more puzzling, how do these men justify judging women for the very same behavior they're eagerly participating in? They grumble about women not putting out and when they do they shame these women for giving them what they want.
The point is these men are misogynists. They don't have a problem with women who have sex on the first date. They have a problem with all women. If a woman doesn't have sex on the first date, he'll just invent some other reason to complain about her. I certainly won't dispute that there are men like this.

But are there men who have "rules"? Is there a man who'll think a woman is wrong to have sex on the first date but will think she's okay if she waits until the third date? I can't imagine a man like that. If a man thinks sex will be okay in two weeks, he's going to think it'll be okay today. And if he thinks sex is wrong today, he's still going to think it's wrong in two weeks.
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:04 PM
Warm blood Warm blood is offline
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The point is these men are misogynists. They don't have a problem with women who have sex on the first date. They have a problem with all women. If a woman doesn't have sex on the first date, he'll just invent some other reason to complain about her. I certainly won't dispute that there are men like this.

But are there men who have "rules"? Is there a man who'll think a woman is wrong to have sex on the first date but will think she's okay if she waits until the third date? I can't imagine a man like that. If a man thinks sex will be okay in two weeks, he's going to think it'll be okay today. And if he thinks sex is wrong today, he's still going to think it's wrong in two weeks.
I would think men who prefer to take it slow (yes, they do exist) won't be down for sex early in the relationship much less on the first date, and probably won't think highly of a woman who feels otherwise, but such a person won't magically be ready only on the third date. You barely know more about someone on the third date than on the first, so I can't imagine someone would think they're oh-so virtuous for waiting two more whole dates. Where's the logic in that?
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:27 PM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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I think the issue is that what people want in the short term is often very different than what they want in the long run.

In the short term, a man may want sex on the 1st date, yet recognize that a woman who would agree to that, may not be what he wants in in a longterm relationship or marriage. It might be akin to a woman who likes an expensive gift and an expensive dinner on the 1st date, yet recognize that a man who would actually do that, may not be good at handling personal finances longterm.

I'm also reminded of the quote by Groucho Marx (or someone,) "I would not want to join any club that would have me!" (Something of that sort)
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:27 PM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is online now
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I think the idea from those men may sometimes be: "If she had sex with me that quickly, how many men has she had sex with?" Sex and genders are two areas where it's common for people to have unreflective or contradictory rules and attitudes which are based on a mix of familiarity, convenience and insecurities.


I can see a woman being hesitant to have sex early even if they wouldn't want to have a relationship with a man who would reject her for having sex early; It must be hurtful to get the impression that things are going well, start to become emotionally invested and find out that the thing that made you bond with him made him reject you.
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:31 PM
Velocity Velocity is offline
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Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
I think the idea from those men may sometimes be: "If she had sex with me that quickly, how many men has she had sex with?"
What I meant to say, but you said it better. If a woman is willing to have sex on a first date, it's hard for a man not to conclude that she surely has had sex with many other men, or would/will.

Is it a double standard? Yes, but it is what it is.
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:51 PM
zoogirl zoogirl is offline
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I think it may come down to trust. As has been said, a woman who has sex on the first date has likely done it before. A man who pressures for sex on the...oh, fer crying' out loud...OTFD, may have had it work often enough to expect it.
Let's not forget that it goes both ways. Plenty of girls expect to OTFD and feel rejected or get angry if the man doesn't step up.

Personally, I prefer to wait until there's some kind of a relationship. Believe it or not, I've fallen for someone who was a friend first and it was a very long time before the actual relationship started. Then there's been the flying leap the second time I layed eyes on him. That one lasted twenty- seven years!

As far as respect goes, it kind of depends on the people and the situation. Sometimes the connection is instant, mutual and too strong to resist. I doubt either would feel disrespect in the morning. Then you've got the pub crawl gone bad and there's no respect at all for...um...what was his name again?!
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Old 05-09-2017, 01:22 AM
erez erez is offline
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Originally Posted by Warm blood View Post
Bingo. Even more puzzling, how do these men justify judging women for the very same behavior they're eagerly participating in? They grumble about women not putting out and when they do they shame these women for giving them what they want.
Men and women want different things in relationships/hookups. What's so confusing about that? Women have been known to shame men for various things, such as their height, their jobs, etc. Men do it for other things. There are differences, either accept them or stay confused and call out everybody as hypocrites.

Last edited by erez; 05-09-2017 at 01:23 AM.
  #13  
Old 05-09-2017, 06:47 AM
igor frankensteen igor frankensteen is offline
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A fair amount of subtlety involved with this area.

Some good observations so far. The way I'd put one aspect of it, is that most "dating" is a form of scientific investigation. Testing each other in order to find out if you want to do more than just attend events occasionally with company. Sex, and the timing of it, is just ONE of the tests involved.

There was a hint from someone, that there is a sort of culturally programmed process involved. That is, each person is supposed to express interest in the other in various ways at various times, and our culture established both what interests must be expressed, and how they are expressed. All behaviors are used by each person to deduce the character, usefulness, and reliability of the other. Sex only SEEMS to be the most important, because there are so many emotional and physical involvements to it, and because our culture has long deemed it to have a great deal of meaning.

Anyway. A simplified version of how "dating" is supposed to go for most of us in this culture, is that each person signals some level of specific interest in the other; then one (usually the male, still, with caveats) makes some overt move towards the other. Next, each person begins testing the other in various ways. One of those tests, is that, just as the male is supposed to initiate contact (at least officially), the male is also supposed to be the first to attempt sexual intimacy. If he does so too quickly, the female is supposed to rebuff him.

Now, that's where everything gets murky. If the male "makes his move" poorly, or fails to make it at the right time, he can suffer far more than a momentary rebuff, and be discarded as immature, or too violent or too weird, and so on. If the female performs her rebuff the wrong way, or fails to rebuff at all, depending on the exact guy, his life stage, and the circumstances (it's all VERY interactive), then she might be discarded for similar complex and varied reasons.

The appearance of hypocrisy about it all, is not actually inherent to the process, but it is common, because very few people actually understand the overall process they are participating in, so they do it all crudely and clumsily. Rather like a lot of human action, really.

It's not as simple as is commonly portrayed in discussions like this.
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Old 05-09-2017, 06:52 AM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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I suspect some women want to wait not just because the man will lose respect but for a couple other reasons. If the guy wants a second date then he passes the test for not being into one night stands. Also, it will make the guy appreciate the sex more if it happens after some waiting.

Last edited by CarnalK; 05-09-2017 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:36 AM
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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Or maybe some people want to get to know the potential partner better than some other people do before getting physically intimate. Some people are comfortable having sex on the first date, some prefer to date for months before getting to that point. It's not always about "testing" the other party, sometimes it's about trust issues or past history or what the person is seeking (short term and sex vs. long-term and a whole suite of things).

As noted, cultural expectations play into a lot of this.
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:54 AM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
I don't think it's such a loss for those women but apparently many women would still want to be with a man who has such double standards.
I doubt they want to be with such men, they might just be trying to discover if they are dating such a man before they have sex with him. It's better to figure it out pre-sex than post-sex.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:09 AM
don't ask don't ask is offline
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Australian women are obviously a little more reticent. I have dated women that have been happy to have sex after the first date but am yet to meet one that wants sex while on a first date. Still one can hope.
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Old 05-09-2017, 09:20 AM
Manda JO Manda JO is offline
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
The point is these men are misogynists. They don't have a problem with women who have sex on the first date. They have a problem with all women. If a woman doesn't have sex on the first date, he'll just invent some other reason to complain about her. I certainly won't dispute that there are men like this.

But are there men who have "rules"? Is there a man who'll think a woman is wrong to have sex on the first date but will think she's okay if she waits until the third date? I can't imagine a man like that. If a man thinks sex will be okay in two weeks, he's going to think it'll be okay today. And if he thinks sex is wrong today, he's still going to think it's wrong in two weeks.
Because they think penetrating a woman lessens her. Actually, they think being penetrated lessens anyone, which is why they aren't comfortable with gay men, either, especially ones they suspect of being the receptive partner (i.e., feminine gay men. And I know that's not how gay relationships work. But those guys don't.)

Once you perceive sex as something inherently derogatory, you lose respect for people willing to "give it up" cheaply--it suggests either a perverse enjoyment of being degraded, or a pathetic need for attention.

None of that applies to the penetrating partner because they are agreeing to let someone fuck them.
  #19  
Old 05-09-2017, 09:27 AM
Tzigone Tzigone is online now
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In the short term, a man may want sex on the 1st date, yet recognize that a woman who would agree to that, may not be what he wants in in a longterm relationship or marriage.
I actually heard a man say he wouldn't want the kind of woman who has sex on a first date to be the mother of his children, so would not continue to date her. But he still thought he would be an appropriate father, even if he had sex on a first date.

If I wanted to be generous, I could say "well, really, the sex-having is all he knows about her, while he knows all his other traits that make him worthy even if he finds early sex a negative" but I'm not generous, so I say it's a damn double standard, especially since he considers her unworthy of learning more about if she has sex early.

Realize here, I'm not talking about people who simply perceive sex differently - as something that sex belongs in a committed relationship vs. a fun, casual activity - but rather those that judge others unworthy for doing the exact same things they are doing, and do not judge themselves unworthy for.
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Old 05-09-2017, 09:31 AM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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I think it depends upon the circumstances of the so called "date"?

For example, have they know each other quite awhile and talked alot on the phone? Then a sort of deep relationship has already been established and they are ready to go to the next step.

How long is this so called "date"? What if they decide to go away for the weekend together? Thats alot different from just a 2-3 hour dinner and a movie date.

Finally, and to be frank, it depends upon the horniness of the woman. Men, we are always up to it. And I do feel that on occasion, women, especially during certain times of the month and after a couple of drinks, are just hot and want a man and are not too picky. I cant really blame her. Sometimes sex is just a physical act when one needs a release.

For example one night I was on the phone with a woman in tech support who (yes this is true) was talking to me from a bar where she was out with friends. Well we talked for nearly an hour while she worked me thru the issue and at the end I asked her if their was anything I could do for her. She said "well... this might be a bit forward..." I then cut her off and said I was engaged. She apologized and said she was a little drunk.
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Old 05-09-2017, 09:34 AM
puddleglum puddleglum is offline
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Presumably when you are on a date you are not just out for a good time but seeking a spouse. Since fidelity is highly prized in a mate, someone who is quick to have sex may not make a good mate. Also since someone on a first date is usually a stranger and having sex with strangers is dangerous it may be that the person has bad judgement and would not make a good spouse.
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Old 05-09-2017, 09:42 AM
CalMeacham CalMeacham is offline
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I'm sorry, but my past self, back when I was dating, would have remarked "There are people who have sex on a first date?"
  #23  
Old 05-09-2017, 09:51 AM
bucketybuck bucketybuck is online now
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There is something I rarely see asked.

Many men judge negatively a woman who has sex on the first date, even if they would have sex on the first date themselves.

But what do women think of men that have sex on the first date? Do they think less of such men? Do women ever have sex on the first date and walk away thinking, "I enjoyed that but I'm not interested in a guy who would sleep with a woman straight away?"
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Old 05-09-2017, 10:37 AM
CookingWithGas CookingWithGas is offline
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Many men who have sex on the first date want sex. Many women who have sex on the first date want a relationship. Impedance mismatch.

You can have sex on a first date without any disrespect or misogyny, as long as the two of you go to the trouble to have a two-minute conversation about what you're each wanting to get out of this. If you can't do that then you should keep it in your pants.
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  #25  
Old 05-09-2017, 10:54 AM
de_facto_lies de_facto_lies is offline
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This is honestly the best thread I have seen in a while so I needed to comment. I believe it is all a matter of relationship and connection with the person. I am not virtuous at all when it comes to sex, I have met girls from Tinder, met up with them that night, had sex and dated for ten months before amicably going separate ways. I never thought any less of them and vice versa. I also knew a girl for about ten years before we had sex and started dating, she knew my past and didn't think anything less of me.

Ones who look for flaws in a person are bound to find some somewhere.
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Old 05-09-2017, 10:54 AM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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What I meant to say, but you said it better. If a woman is willing to have sex on a first date, it's hard for a man not to conclude that she surely has had sex with many other men, or would/will.

Is it a double standard? Yes, but it is what it is.
Agreed. In all of these type of threads, posters want to change the thousands of years old stereotype that it is not so bad for a man to sleep around but if a woman does it, she is loose or immoral.

Anytime to try to change the entire world you are usually fighting a losing battle, but the stereotype itself is sort of self-reinforcing. A woman knows that it is culturally passe to sleep with a guy on the first date. If she does, she is bucking cultural norms which is cause for consideration in and of itself.

Note, not cause for concern, but consideration. There remain gender differences regardless of the ceaseless mission of the left to obliterate them.
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Old 05-09-2017, 10:55 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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I suspect some women want to wait not just because the man will lose respect but for a couple other reasons. If the guy wants a second date then he passes the test for not being into one night stands. Also, it will make the guy appreciate the sex more if it happens after some waiting.
I feel this attitude, while it exists, is perpetuating a false idea that only men want sex and women only give them sex in exchange for men doing something the women want; sex is a reward for good behavior.
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Old 05-09-2017, 10:59 AM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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I'm sorry, but my past self, back when I was dating, would have remarked "There are people who have sex on a first date?"
They sense your desperation. When I was married it seemed like women were running down from the hills and flinging themselves at me with offers of wild, pornographic-style sex.

When I got divorced, I thought of meeting some of them. They scattered back into the hills leaving only tumbleweeds in their wake.

When I'm married, I have to do the right thing and turn down advances from beautiful and successful women. When single I couldn't get laid in a Costa Rican whorehouse with a stack of $100 bills sitting on the table. So is life.
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:01 AM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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Agreed. In all of these type of threads, posters want to change the thousands of years old stereotype that it is not so bad for a man to sleep around but if a woman does it, she is loose or immoral.

Anytime to try to change the entire world you are usually fighting a losing battle, but the stereotype itself is sort of self-reinforcing. A woman knows that it is culturally passe to sleep with a guy on the first date. If she does, she is bucking cultural norms which is cause for consideration in and of itself.

Note, not cause for concern, but consideration. There remain gender differences regardless of the ceaseless mission of the left to obliterate them.
Certainly there remain stereotypes, prejudice, sexism, and misogyny. I won't apologize for trying to obliterate them.
  #30  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:04 AM
jz78817 jz78817 is online now
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
The point is these men are misogynists. They don't have a problem with women who have sex on the first date. They have a problem with all women. If a woman doesn't have sex on the first date, he'll just invent some other reason to complain about her. I certainly won't dispute that there are men like this.
the double standard is everywhere. Andrew Dice Clay can get on stage and deliver an hour of raunch and it's hilarious, yet Amy Schumer makes one moderately-explicit sex joke and everyone gets uncomfortable.
  #31  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:10 AM
Manda JO Manda JO is offline
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They sense your desperation. When I was married it seemed like women were running down from the hills and flinging themselves at me with offers of wild, pornographic-style sex.
I tend to think that it's more like when you're married you can tell yourself "Oh, yeah, she totally wants me, that was totally a pass" because you don't have to test the hypothesis, as it were. But when you are single, you respond to the ambiguous signal with a signal of your own and often discover it wasn't a pass at all.

Also, uninterested women are perhaps more diligent to avoid ambiguous gestures that might be misinterpreted by single men.
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:17 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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I doubt they want to be with such men, they might just be trying to discover if they are dating such a man before they have sex with him. It's better to figure it out pre-sex than post-sex.
I have no problem understanding how a person, male of female, can decide they don't know a person well enough to want to have sex with them. Nothing mysterious there.

What seems confusing to me is that some women seem to have this middle ground. They're willing to have sex with casual hook-ups and they're willing to have sex with people they're in established relationships with. But if a man falls in between these two levels, they decide they shouldn't have sex with him.

A woman can see a guy in a bar and think "That guy's decent looking and I'm horny. I think I'll head over there and see if I can get laid tonight." So the woman goes over and starts a conversation and they hit it off. But they can hit it off so well that the woman might start thinking "Wow, this is a great guy. I really like him. In fact, I like him so much I no longer want to have sex with him tonight. Instead I think we should start dating and maybe have sex a few weeks from now." So some women can have this situation where as their emotional connection increases, their willingness to have sex can decrease.

Men aren't like this. Our emotional interest and our sexual interest are connected in a linear fashion. If you're a relative stranger, we can want to have sex. If you're somebody we like, we want to have sex more. If we're in love with you, we want to have sex even more.

So these two different sets of values can lead to confusion. A woman who's had one night stands might decide not to have sex with a man she's met because she thinks he's better than those men she had one night stands with and she wants a relationship. But if a man knows that the woman has had sex with other men right away and she isn't willing to have sex with him right away, he'll conclude the woman is less interested in him than she was in those other men.
  #33  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:17 AM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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Certainly there remain stereotypes, prejudice, sexism, and misogyny. I won't apologize for trying to obliterate them.
I respect that, but my point remains. The fact that you might (and I'm not suggesting you DO) sleep with someone on the first date in an effort to rid the world of the double standard, in its own way speaks about who you are, for good or ill.

IOW, the question in the back of the man's mind: Why did she sleep with me on the first date knowing that I might think she is loose or immoral, even in these enlightened times we are living?, is a question that survives even if he has himself discarded the old stereotype.
  #34  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:21 AM
Leaffan Leaffan is online now
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
.......
Men aren't like this. Our emotional interest and our sexual interest are connected in a linear fashion. If you're a relative stranger, we can want to have sex. If you're somebody we like, we want to have sex more. If we're in love with you, we want to have sex even more.
....
I know you realize you can't speak on every man's behalf, so I'll just leave it at that.
  #35  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:22 AM
FloatyGimpy FloatyGimpy is offline
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I think the issue is that what people want in the short term is often very different than what they want in the long run.

In the short term, a man may want sex on the 1st date, yet recognize that a woman who would agree to that, may not be what he wants in in a longterm relationship or marriage. It might be akin to a woman who likes an expensive gift and an expensive dinner on the 1st date, yet recognize that a man who would actually do that, may not be good at handling personal finances longterm.
But in your scenario, one person giving away a whole bunch of money is certainly different than two people enjoying a mutually pleasurable time. I don't think the analogy holds up.
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:23 AM
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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I confess this topic is now of some concern to me, as I am now potentially back in the dating game.

I don't do sex on the first date for the simple reason that it takes me a long time to trust someone enough to be comfortable with them touching me. Outside of certain formal gestures, such as a handshake, or a light tap on the hand to get my attention if needed, I don't care to be touched at all by most people. For probably several reasons, I reserve physical touching to a very few people in my life

(One thing I'm grateful to for my current coworkers is that after I returned to work after my husband's death most of them asked "can I give you a hug?" rather than simply grabbing me. And yeah, I accepted the hugs because I needed lots of reassurance but they let it be my choice.)

So... one date isn't enough for me to get to know someone enough to be comfortable with a lot of touching, and a lot of touching is sort of necessary to the sex act. And no, sex is not a reward for good behavior. If you aren't comfortable and enjoying being around me outside of sex then let's call this whole thing off. I'm not looking for a one night stand. "Friend with benefits" is an option, but it's can't be all "benefits" and no "friendship".

Of course, communicating with people is a great concept. There are women who want sex without strings attached, or minimal strings attached (granted, a lower percentage of women than men). There are those who are looking for marriage and children. There are those looking for companionship. The first couple of dates is where you work out whether or not your plans are compatible.

Not that I'm in any way ready for dating at this point, but I have concerns that the expectations and norms I navigated 30 years ago have changed over time in ways I'm not aware of.
  #37  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:26 AM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is online now
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Couple of points:
  • I think men are hard-wired to value fidelity in a woman more than women are to value it in a man, since men can get cuckolded and women cannot. That's biology/evolution, and I don't think that's going to change. (I remember a line from GWTW about how someone was looking for "a good girl to court and a bad girl to have fun with", and I think a lot of guys are like that.)
  • Men tend to desire sex more than women (also for evolutionary reasons IMHO, as discussed elsewhere on this board). So when it comes to sex, men tend to be the "takers" and women the "givers". People lose respect for others who "give" up their assets too quickly, but not for people who try to "take" what they can get.

Disclaimer: the above does not apply to all men, all women, you, your spouse etc. It's a generalization.
  #38  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:33 AM
Manda JO Manda JO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
Couple of points:
[LIST]
I think men are hard-wired to value fidelity in a woman more than women are to value it in a man, since men can get cuckolded and women cannot. That's biology/evolution, and I don't think that's going to change. (I remember a line from GWTW about how someone was looking for "a good girl to court and a bad girl to have fun with", and I think a lot of guys are like that.)
That's a just-so story. I could just as easily argue that women are hard-wired to value fidelity more, because they are less able to provide for themselves when pregnant or while they have small children, and they devote more resources per offspring: a man can abandon one set of children and have a reasonable chance of making another set. If a woman gets abandoned and her children starve, even if she lives she will not have time or resources to replace the children so easily.

Infidelity is not abandonment, but it often leads to abandonment.


Quote:
Men tend to desire sex more than women (also for evolutionary reasons IMHO, as discussed elsewhere on this board). So when it comes to sex, men tend to be the "takers" and women the "givers". People lose respect for others who "give" up their assets too quickly, but not for people who try to "take" what they can get.
What is the evidence that this is a biological, rather than a social, construct?
  #39  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:35 AM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
What seems confusing to me is that some women seem to have this middle ground. They're willing to have sex with casual hook-ups and they're willing to have sex with people they're in established relationships with. But if a man falls in between these two levels, they decide they shouldn't have sex with him.
I'm not particularly familiar with this thinking, so I'm not doing anything but guessing, but to the extent anyone does this they might be thinking that for good or ill sex changes things.
  #40  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:36 AM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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What is the evidence that this is a biological, rather than a social, construct?
Thousands of years of stereotypes, of course!
  #41  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:43 AM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is online now
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
That's a just-so story. I could just as easily argue that women are hard-wired to value fidelity more, because they are less able to provide for themselves when pregnant or while they have small children, and they devote more resources per offspring: a man can abandon one set of children and have a reasonable chance of making another set. If a woman gets abandoned and her children starve, even if she lives she will not have time or resources to replace the children so easily.

Infidelity is not abandonment, but it often leads to abandonment.
The last line says it all. Infidelity is not abandonment. More generally, polygyny does not lessen the likelihood that a woman will pass on her genes. Polyandry does lessen the likelihood that a man will pass on his.

[Even the relatively small impact of infidelity leading to abandonment is mostly the result of the modern monogamous society and is thus insignificant in evolutionary terms.]

Quote:
What is the evidence that this is a biological, rather than a social, construct?
I've made my case here.
  #42  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:49 AM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
What is the evidence that this is a biological, rather than a social, construct?
I'll try to do justice to the belief, so here goes: Sex is biological. We have a desire to do ridiculous things like insert organ A into slot B so that one hundred years from now there will be more humans. Further, we all, both men and women, want OUR genes to be those future humans, not that idiot's genes next door.

So how do we accomplish that? If I am a man, I accomplish that by sleeping with as many women as possible. Quantity, not quality. If I impregnate 100 women per year and only 5 survive to adulthood, it is a net win. I don't need to stay around to raise the kids, but if I find a woman who cleans out the cave and makes me feel comfortable after killing a wooly mammoth, I might stay around.

If I am a woman, I can only have one child every nine months at most. I can sleep with a thousand men per year, but only have one child. Therefore, I should be selective. I should only sleep with someone that will give me the greatest potential to raise this one child per year and give him/her the best genes. So I am not having sex on the first cave date. I want an interview process so that my one child this year has the best possible father. And after I have selected the candidate, I want to keep him around. Because of my stature, I cannot kill wooly mammoths, but I would like a man who can to bring back wooly mammoth for me and my child. I will clean the cave and make him comfortable when he returns.

Now, does all of the above apply to modern society? Yes, and no. We still have the hard wired biological desires, but because women can support themselves now, there is not the need to clean caves and throw away wooly mammoth bones. However, by and large, men are still the breadwinners, and society has trained women, for lack of a better word, to want to make their man feel clean and comfortable.

That's the belief. If you disagree, I am open to criticism.
  #43  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:51 AM
Leaffan Leaffan is online now
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
I confess this topic is now of some concern to me, as I am now potentially back in the dating game.

I don't do sex on the first date for the simple reason that it takes me a long time to trust someone enough to be comfortable with them touching me. Outside of certain formal gestures, such as a handshake, or a light tap on the hand to get my attention if needed, I don't care to be touched at all by most people. For probably several reasons, I reserve physical touching to a very few people in my life......
Don't worry. You're not alone in this regard.
  #44  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:55 AM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I respect that, but my point remains.
When you claim "there remain gender differences regardless of the ceaseless mission of the left to obliterate them" after talking about pernicious stereotypes, I strangely don't feel like you really want to get rid of those stereotypes. Wacky of me, I'm sure.
  #45  
Old 05-09-2017, 12:13 PM
Sam Stone Sam Stone is offline
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I agree with the biological/evolutionary reasons for the differences betwwen male and female attitudes towards casual sex and infidelity. I would also add that a husband's infidelity has little evolutionary impact on the couple's future gene passing, but a wife's infidelity can cause the husband to expend much of his resources unknowingly raising another man's child, which is a disaster for his own selfish genes. This happens far more often than most would think.
  #46  
Old 05-09-2017, 12:30 PM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is online now
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Originally Posted by igor frankensteen View Post

Now, that's where everything gets murky. If the male "makes his move" poorly, or fails to make it at the right time, he can suffer far more than a momentary rebuff, and be discarded as immature, or too violent or too weird, and so on. If the female performs her rebuff the wrong way
It does get murky which makes me wonder; What do you think are some ways the move can be made poorly or not made at the right time? How can the rebuff be performed the wrong way?
  #47  
Old 05-09-2017, 12:34 PM
Manda JO Manda JO is offline
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
The last line says it all. Infidelity is not abandonment. More generally, polygyny does not lessen the likelihood that a woman will pass on her genes. Polyandry does lessen the likelihood that a man will pass on his.

Polygyny is not infidelity, either. Infidelity in monogamous cultures often leads to abandonment.
  #48  
Old 05-09-2017, 01:04 PM
Doubticus Doubticus is offline
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It's mostly a hang up over sex at all. I think most people would see each relationship as unique, each first date as unique. To apply a rule about it would seem to prejudge the people / circumstances involved. Kind of shallow if you think about it.
  #49  
Old 05-09-2017, 01:06 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
When you claim "there remain gender differences regardless of the ceaseless mission of the left to obliterate them" after talking about pernicious stereotypes, I strangely don't feel like you really want to get rid of those stereotypes. Wacky of me, I'm sure.
Some of those stereotypes should be destroyed, burned down, and the earth salted so nothing more can grow there.

Others are valid, non-discriminatory, legitimate reasons for a distinction. In the 1970s we saw the former being brushed away. In the 2010s, we are going all coocoo ridiculous about it.

Do you agree that there are gender differences that might be appropriate to be regulated, if not in law, but in social customs?
  #50  
Old 05-09-2017, 01:50 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is online now
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
Polygyny is not infidelity, either.
I disagree, for purposes of this discussion.

If men are inherently predisposed to desire a mate whose children are definitely theirs (which they will be, since men who possess this trait are more likely to pass on their genes) then this would lead to them finding women who are more promiscuous less desirable, for the same reason they would be opposed to polyandrous relationships.

Women will be less predisposed to find promiscuous men undesirable, as well as less predisposed to object to polygynous relationships, since such a trait will not significantly impact the likelihood of them passing on their genes (at least to nearly the same extent as it would for men).

For purposes of this concept, these are the same. Quibbling over whether it's called "infidelity" is missing the point. Call it the "someone who I'm confident will only sleep with me" characteristic if you like - it's inherently a bigger deal for men than for women, for reasons given, whatever form it takes.

Quote:
Infidelity in monogamous cultures often leads to abandonment.
Again: it's still not as big of a factor as cuckolding, and monogamous cultures have not been the norm for all that long, historically speaking.
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