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  #1  
Old 07-19-2017, 11:35 PM
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HurricaneDitka, you are just so full of shit


So over in GD, HurricaneDipshit drops this lovely turd:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=831416

The basic premise is that Republicans are more patriotic than Democrats. The reasoning behind this is that more Republicans SAY they are more patriotic.

JohnT gives a pretty good answer here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...66&postcount=6
Quote:
The question asked is akin to looking at a poll of what men and women think about their weight, seeing that more women than men consider themselves overweight, and then asking "Why are women generally fatter than men?"
But Hurricaneshitdick would have none of that logic:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...9&postcount=10
Quote:
And with weight, we've got objective measurements to refute those opinions. Do you have any objective measurements for patriotism you'd like to propose?
So now we have to have objective measurements!

There's a bunch of other stuff in which Hurricaneshitass attempts to invoke the Honor Guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier or some such.

Basically, the entire thread was based around HurricanePoopGobbler trying to prove that Republicans were better than Democrats.

But, here's the thing, HurricaneDitka... I served for 23 fucking years and I refuse to accept your definition of patriotism.
  #2  
Old 07-19-2017, 11:37 PM
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He didn't do very well in a friendship with McMahon either.
  #3  
Old 07-20-2017, 01:32 AM
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He works from his own ditka-tionary.
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:56 AM
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He wants objective data but doesn't think research is necessary to determine it.
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Old 07-20-2017, 02:09 AM
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Hangonaminnit? HD is proposing that one team is more patriotic than the other, but doesn't actually define what patriotism is?


Bwhahhhaaaaa. Gotta love the challenged posters on this board! They're entertaining if nothing else.
  #6  
Old 07-20-2017, 02:34 AM
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As I understood it, the poll linked to by the moron said that more Democrats than Republicans identified as "patriotic", but more Republicans than Democrats identified as "very patriotic".

Which to me just seemed to mean that more of the normal, sane, reasoned patriots were democratic while the flag waving "USA USA USA" redneck super patriots were republican.

In a time where your racist president holds rallies for those types of red cap wearing idiots I think I took a very different conclusion from that poll than the OP did.

But then he is one of these clowns who would rather defend his "side" at all costs rather than accept the reality of what he is defending, so I never gave much weight to his opinion anyway.
  #7  
Old 07-20-2017, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I'm not trying to get you to admit or agree to anything. I wanted to hear some Dopers thoughts on why this poll came out the way it did. And it's been interesting so far. We've gotten responses all the way from "The liberal response is- fuck that shit. If that is the definition of patriotism, then call be proud not to be patriotic." to "It's Democrats who more embody the actual love of country, and the people in it, that the word patriotism properly signifies." and all sorts of perspectives in between. It's surprised me how many people argued that patriotism isn't / can't be defined, and I honestly expected more replies along the lines of Ravenman's and less quibbling.
This is how I read the thread as well, and I find this pitting to be small potatoes indeed. The quibbling misses the point of the thread. The worst you can say about this thread is that HurricaneDitka did a poor job of explaining his thoughts in the OP, and a bunch of pedants jumped on him as a result. In polls, democrats regularly identify themselves as less patriotic than republicans. There's an interesting discussion to be had about why that is. It would have been nice to have that discussion, instead of turning it into yet another tribe signalling exercise - "No, the poll is biased, you're interpreting it wrong, blah blah blah". All valid points, all utterly uninteresting and missing the point of the thread.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 07-20-2017 at 03:19 AM.
  #8  
Old 07-20-2017, 03:36 AM
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In polls, democrats regularly identify themselves as less patriotic than republicans. There's an interesting discussion to be had about why that is.
But first you need to determine what constitutes 'patriotism'. Until you have a clear definition of terms, all discussion is moot.
  #9  
Old 07-20-2017, 03:47 AM
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As I understood it, the poll linked to by the moron said that more Democrats than Republicans identified as "patriotic", but more Republicans than Democrats identified as "very patriotic".
Close. More Rs than Ds identified as "extremely" patriotic. Even at "very", the Ds had it.
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Old 07-20-2017, 03:54 AM
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In polls, democrats regularly identify themselves as less patriotic than republicans.
No. If that had, indeed, been the poll question ("Do you consider yourself less patriotic than a member of the opposition party"), that would be a very interesting conversation.

That poll, on the other hand, boils down to "Why do less Democrats identify as Teh X-Treemzorz!!!!111. ?" which is a lot less interesting, with an easy answer, which was given multiple times - and only reads as partisan "signalling" because reality has a partisan bias....

Last edited by MrDibble; 07-20-2017 at 03:54 AM.
  #11  
Old 07-20-2017, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Wolf333 View Post
So over in GD, HurricaneDipshit drops this lovely turd:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=831416

The basic premise is that Republicans are more patriotic than Democrats. The reasoning behind this is that more Republicans SAY they are more patriotic.

...
I saw that thread and almost responded. However, the feeling of being a fish reacting to some bait got the better of me and I said "Nah".
  #12  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:18 AM
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I quite liked his opening line, and was saddened that the thread's placement in GD prevented me from answering the question properly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurricane Ditka
I now believe that it is fairly well-established that Republicans are generally more patriotic than Democrats. Why is that so?
Ummm, because you're not very smart?
  #13  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:30 AM
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It was a trolling debate topic. Ditka is a piece of crap. If I was interested in right wing drivel, I'd listen to Rush or Savage or turn on Fox.
  #14  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:41 AM
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This is how I read the thread as well, and I find this pitting to be small potatoes indeed. The quibbling misses the point of the thread. The worst you can say about this thread is that HurricaneDitka did a poor job of explaining his thoughts in the OP, and a bunch of pedants jumped on him as a result. In polls, democrats regularly identify themselves as less patriotic than republicans. There's an interesting discussion to be had about why that is. It would have been nice to have that discussion, instead of turning it into yet another tribe signalling exercise - "No, the poll is biased, you're interpreting it wrong, blah blah blah". All valid points, all utterly uninteresting and missing the point of the thread.
Actually, the thread title was "Why are Republicans generally more patriotic than Democrats?" and the closing statement in the OP was
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Personally I don't see any reasonable way to parse those results that doesn't show Democrats as generally less patriotic than Republicans, but I'd be delighted to hear your theories and arguments as to why this is not so, if that's the claim you wish to advance.
This was not a question about why Republicans and Democrats answer a particular poll in a particular way, which might have been an interesting question. It took the results of the poll and presumed that the poll accurately identified the actual patriotism of the respective parties without even identifying what patriotism was or attempting to identify how each group understood its definition.
The responses are not pedantic nitpicking; they are the natural response to a weird assumption applied poorly to different groups.
I do not think this Pitting was necessary, but your defense fails.
  #15  
Old 07-20-2017, 07:18 AM
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It's not markedly different from the dozens of other concern-trollicious "golly gee guys, help me figure this thing out!" threads launched by Master Ditka since he hit the ground running on his race toward enlightenment, but while we have freelance Überhacks like Okrahoma and suffocatingly ignorant faulty A.I. like doorhinge to compare and contrast, Ditka has a place setting at the Good Ones' table, apparently.
  #16  
Old 07-20-2017, 07:32 AM
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Actually, the thread title was "Why are Republicans generally more patriotic than Democrats?" and the closing statement in the OP was This was not a question about why Republicans and Democrats answer a particular poll in a particular way, which might have been an interesting question. It took the results of the poll and presumed that the poll accurately identified the actual patriotism of the respective parties without even identifying what patriotism was or attempting to identify how each group understood its definition.
The responses are not pedantic nitpicking; they are the natural response to a weird assumption applied poorly to different groups.
I do not think this Pitting was necessary, but your defense fails.
As one of those apparently being a pedantic nitpicker, let me say, that I agree with this. It isn't as if a couple of us pointed out the error and Ditka said "Ok, I recognize the error. Hey can we shift the conversation to 'why do Republicans self-identify as more patriotic that Democrats?' No, he's still seems to defending the conclusions in the OP. What conversation can there be had when the initial conclusions are not reasonable given the evidence and the OP won't concede it? Hence my latest suggestion that if he really wants to have the more reasonable conversation the sensible thing to do would be to start over. That thread is too poisoned now. Of course Budget Player Cadet there's nothing keeping you from starting such a thread if you think it might be interesting, and I agree with you that it could be interesting.

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  #17  
Old 07-20-2017, 08:11 AM
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This is how I read the thread as well, and I find this pitting to be small potatoes indeed. The quibbling misses the point of the thread. The worst you can say about this thread is that HurricaneDitka did a poor job of explaining his thoughts in the OP, and a bunch of pedants jumped on him as a result. In polls, democrats regularly identify themselves as less patriotic than republicans. There's an interesting discussion to be had about why that is. It would have been nice to have that discussion, instead of turning it into yet another tribe signalling exercise - "No, the poll is biased, you're interpreting it wrong, blah blah blah". All valid points, all utterly uninteresting and missing the point of the thread.
It's not so different from the poll you got all worked up about in the Pit concerning Hillary and Trump's approval rating.
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Old 07-20-2017, 08:26 AM
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Since the poster I was asking got a warning in the other thread for the underlying post, I'll repost my inquiry here.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia View Post
But I'm done with reasoned responses to Ditka, this is just another trolling thread like the 4th of July one. I remember a lot of Dems gave very well thought out responses about what their country meant for them and the response was just sort of, "Oh, you are all a bunch of overthinking navel gazers but you still hate America."
Can you point me to the post(s) where he said that? I'm not disputing that it was said; I'm genuinely curious. HD has started a number of potentially argumentative threads lately where he seemed (at least to me) to be trying to avoid poisoning the well.
My impression is that the target of the OP has been starting these threads in good faith, even if he is reluctant to accept pushback on his premises. I'd like to see if I'm wrong.
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Old 07-20-2017, 08:51 AM
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Since the poster I was asking got a warning in the other thread for the underlying post, I'll repost my inquiry here.

My impression is that the target of the OP has been starting these threads in good faith, even if he is reluctant to accept pushback on his premises. I'd like to see if I'm wrong.
I tend to agree. I don't get the same impression from HurricaneDitka that I get from say Okrahoma or doorhinge. That being said, I have a policy for online discussions that I won't go in circles with somebody, and at least with respect to that thread, I'm done because it isn't going to go anywhere. The underlying interesting point is never going to get covered. I could start a new thread on it, except I just don't feel that passionately about it to defend an OP.
  #20  
Old 07-20-2017, 09:23 AM
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My impression is that the target of the OP has been starting these threads in good faith, even if he is reluctant to accept pushback on his premises. I'd like to see if I'm wrong.
+1. I don't think HurricaneDitka has the bot-like responses of the other usual suspects.

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  #21  
Old 07-20-2017, 05:43 PM
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If someone considers themselves patriotic, why can't that be enough? Should there be a test? Patriotism obviously means different things to different people.

It seems that some patriotic Democrats are upset that not enough of their coalition members consider themselves patriotic.

That being said, maybe the less controversial question would have been "Why do more Republicans identify as patriotic?"
  #22  
Old 07-20-2017, 05:47 PM
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Or: Why do Republicans think a window decal on a truck demonstrates patriotism?
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Old 07-20-2017, 05:57 PM
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How many of these Republican "patriots" also fly the Confederate flag? Because you could rule those people straight out of the patriotism pool. Patriots don't fly a flag of treason.
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:05 PM
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Or: Why do Republicans think a window decal on a truck demonstrates patriotism?
Or why would someone think the wrong decal is anti-patriotic?:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
How many of these Republican "patriots" also fly the Confederate flag? Because you could rule those people straight out of the patriotism pool. Patriots don't fly a flag of treason.
So patriotism is tied to the flag or government, not the country, society, or people.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 07-20-2017 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:06 PM
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nm

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Old 07-20-2017, 06:08 PM
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Or why would someone think the wrong decal is anti-patriotic?:




So patriotism is tied to the flag or government, not the country, society, or people.
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
nm
Why don't you go pick that asinine fight in the actual thread?
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:08 PM
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So patriotism is tied to the flag or government, not the country, society, or people.
If display of one can demonstrate patriotism, then display of another can demonstrate treason.

Or we could just conclude that displaying a flag says nothing meaningful at all.

ETA: I see you reconsidered your remark. Good.

Last edited by Bryan Ekers; 07-20-2017 at 06:10 PM.
  #28  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:12 PM
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That being said, maybe the less controversial question would have been "Why do more Republicans identify as patriotic?"
I think that's a valid question. I would certainly think it's non-controversial that more Republicans than Democrats consider themselves "patriotic." That has been my general observation, though I don't think it's a huge difference (and the poll bears that out). But I, as I said in the other thread, probably would not self-identify as strongly "patriotic," even though I love this country, but that's probably mostly because of my interpretation of what "patriotism" means to most people.

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Old 07-20-2017, 06:12 PM
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If someone considers themselves patriotic, why can't that be enough?
As I said in the other thread: “The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons.”
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:14 PM
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If display of one can demonstrate patriotism, then display of another can demonstrate treason.

Or we could just conclude that displaying a flag says nothing meaningful at all.

ETA: I see you reconsidered your remark. Good.
No just made it make sense.

We could also conclude that patriot self-identity says nothing meaningful about a person without further fact-finding.
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:17 PM
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As I said in the other thread: “The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons.”
Never heard that quote, very good.
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:18 PM
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Just like when a salesman keeps talking about his Christianity, you'd better walk away.
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Old 07-20-2017, 06:54 PM
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No just made it make sense.

We could also conclude that patriot self-identity says nothing meaningful about a person without further fact-finding.
Ah! now we are at the beginning point of this pitting! When that was brought up to ditka, he refused research as a solution and continued on for 200+ posts with no real clear definition of patriotism. Wasting everyone's time. Almost of that was his intent all along. A troll, if you will.

Last edited by snfaulkner; 07-20-2017 at 06:54 PM.
  #34  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:58 PM
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Wait, Concern Troll is concerned?
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Old 07-20-2017, 07:05 PM
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No just made it make sense.

We could also conclude that patriot self-identity says nothing meaningful about a person without further fact-finding.
Cool. Be a dear and suggest this to HurricaneDitka in the other thread, would you? He seems to think that Republicans saying they're patriotic at higher rates than Democrats means they are more patriotic, whatever that actually means.
  #36  
Old 07-20-2017, 08:29 PM
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That thread is just a shitshow of a legitimately interesting question (why do Republicans identify themselves that way?) asked in the wrong way (why are Republicans such better people?) by a guy who is so utterly clueless about people not like him (I wonder how many flag burnings happen in California on the Fourth of July? Is it more or less than ten thousand?).
  #37  
Old 07-20-2017, 08:36 PM
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And by the way, I rather like HurricaneDitka even though he drives me batty. He reminds me of a late 19th century explorer who is earnestly trying to discover important things, but when he comes across an Amazonian tribe, it takes him a very long time to realize that the savages aren't idiots just because they don't speak English.
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Old 07-20-2017, 08:43 PM
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Or: Why do Republicans think a window decal on a truck demonstrates patriotism?
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Or why would someone think the wrong decal is anti-patriotic?...
.
Or why would would the someone someone think that the wrong wrong sticker decal is anti anti patriotic?
You have a compelling point that only applies to those whose heads are full of nitrous oxide.
  #39  
Old 11-06-2017, 07:52 AM
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Reviving this pitting for context and to add the following for posterity -

H-D is disingenuous and just plain mean spirited.

So this is what you're really like, H-D?...
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #40  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:20 AM
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So over in GD, HurricaneDipshit drops this lovely turd:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=831416
I read the thread, especially the OP. This pitting is weak sauce, indeed.
  #41  
Old 11-06-2017, 08:24 AM
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I read the thread, especially the OP. This pitting is weak sauce, indeed.
3 1/2 months later. I guess senile turtles read slow.
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Old 11-06-2017, 08:54 AM
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3 1/2 months later. I guess senile turtles read slow.
Until recently he had everyone who had ever disagreed with him - to use his overused terminology, those of us with “room temperature IQs” —on ignore.

I understand he un-ignored a lot of people recently. There’s a lot more content on this board if you don’t only see posts from his ideological brethren of doorhinge, Starving Artist, and Okrahoma (aka the freezer temp IQ brigade); so understandably Clothy is taking some time to make his way through a bunch of threads.
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Old 11-06-2017, 09:00 AM
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Until recently he had everyone who had ever disagreed with him - to use his overused terminology, those of us with “room temperature IQs” —on ignore.

I understand he un-ignored a lot of people recently. There’s a lot more content on this board if you don’t only see posts from his ideological brethren of doorhinge, Starving Artist, and Okrahoma (aka the freezer temp IQ brigade); so understandably Clothy is taking some time to make his way through a bunch of threads.
I know. And I'm back on. Made the mistake of challenging him to back up what he said. Despite the thick shell, his epidermis is still paper thin.
  #44  
Old 11-06-2017, 09:10 AM
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3 1/2 months later. I guess senile turtles read slow.
At least he had a brilliant, well-reasoned argument when he finally got around to it (though as I noted previously I've yet to see evidence that this pitting was warranted).
  #45  
Old 11-06-2017, 10:31 AM
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HurricanDitka is all about pedantry and moving goalposts. He asks for data, and when you find it, he changes the subject instead of accepting it (healthcare debate and deaths, for example). He bogs down on definitions of terms - why is it "healthcare" - and then changes the subject when he doesn't like those answers - because it's the name of the proposed bill.

He may or may not be working from the purported Right Wing talking points, but he's a lousy debater. I'll endorse the Pitting.
  #46  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:21 AM
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HurricanDitka is all about pedantry and moving goalposts. He asks for data, and when you find it, he changes the subject instead of accepting it (healthcare debate and deaths, for example). He bogs down on definitions of terms - why is it "healthcare" - and then changes the subject when he doesn't like those answers - because it's the name of the proposed bill.

He may or may not be working from the purported Right Wing talking points, but he's a lousy debater. I'll endorse the Pitting.
Well, it is still about a Category 1 for the OP. Now if we do add what you talk about we can reach a Cat 3.

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Old 11-06-2017, 11:25 AM
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...
But Hurricaneshitdick would have none of that logic:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...9&postcount=10

Quote:
... Do you have any objective measurements for patriotism you'd like to propose?
So now we have to have objective measurements!

There's a bunch of other stuff in which Hurricaneshitass attempts to invoke the Honor Guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier or some such.
I didn't click the thread: I get more than enough of Hurricane without seeking even more deliberately.

But I can't tell from the synopsis whether he denies objective measurement is possible — in which case his claim is full of shit — or if he's just full of shit in general.

I think there are objective measures that might appeal to Republioturds. I'll present several and ask Hurricane which he would approve of:
  • Is the pollee wearing a MAGA hat? Patriots want to make America great again. Democrats prefer to wallow in Obaminationism.
  • Was the pollee smart enough to get a draft deferment so he could Create Jobs? Patriots like soldiers who don't get captured, or who were too smart to enlist in the first place.
  • Does the pollee adhere to Prosperity Gospel? Helping meek and poor Europeans is an idea for European socialists, not real American patriots.
  • Ask about NFL blacks disrespecting the flag. Measure the angle of their bitter frown when they reply.
    Real patriots are proud to sing the National Anthem.
  #48  
Old 11-06-2017, 11:28 AM
ElvisL1ves is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
HurricanDitka is all about pedantry and moving goalposts. He asks for data, and when you find it, he changes the subject instead of accepting it (healthcare debate and deaths, for example). He bogs down on definitions of terms - why is it "healthcare" - and then changes the subject when he doesn't like those answers - because it's the name of the proposed bill.
True, but he's not the first or the worst.
  #49  
Old 11-06-2017, 12:26 PM
Vinyl Turnip is offline
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It's unfair to pigeonhole H-Ditzy, who over time has proven himself a thoughtful and conscientious instigator of threads on a vast spectrum of subjects ranging from "Democrats did something stupid" to "Democrats are hypocrites" all the way to "Democrats are infighting, tee hee!"
  #50  
Old 11-06-2017, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
It's unfair to pigeonhole H-Ditzy, who over time has proven himself a thoughtful and conscientious instigator of threads on a vast spectrum of subjects ranging from "Democrats did something stupid" to "Democrats are hypocrites" all the way to "Democrats are infighting, tee hee!"
He runs the gamut, from A to Hole.
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