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Old 08-29-2017, 12:29 PM
Contemplation Contemplation is offline
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What's the purpose of Cul De Sacs?

It looks like a cul-de-sac style neighborhood requires you to travel more distance to get to the same places than simply driving or walking down a straight grid. A square grid also looks easier to navigate as long as you know your cardinal directions. The only obvious advantage is that you can make a U-turn at the end of the street.
How come so many neighborhoods were built in a curling, twisting cul-de-sac shape?
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:34 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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They don't want through traffic, traffic cutting through the neighborhood from one place to another. You can't avoid having local traffic from people who live there, but you can avoid people coming through.

Some of the more extreme ones want to discourage visitors entirely, to make the neighborhood more exclusive. So you make a map convoluted enough that only the people who live there get a chance to learn it and understand it.
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:34 PM
jz78817 jz78817 is online now
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Originally Posted by Contemplation View Post
It looks like a cul-de-sac style neighborhood requires you to travel more distance to get to the same places than simply driving or walking down a straight grid. A square grid also looks easier to navigate as long as you know your cardinal directions. The only obvious advantage is that you can make a U-turn at the end of the street.
How come so many neighborhoods were built in a curling, twisting cul-de-sac shape?
to keep through traffic down.

https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/publicat...h/socio75.html

In addition, automobiles required streets designed for speed and driving safety, attributes that were lacking in the traditional pedestrian street. These new requirements found their clearest expression in the Radburn model, named after the pioneering suburb of Radburn, N.J., begun in 1928. Radburn replaced the grid with “superblocks” that excluded through car traffic by grouping houses around culs-de-sac,
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:40 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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It lets kids play in the streets without getting run down by cars.

Only the residents of the neighborhood have a reason to drive down the roads, cutting down traffic.

It is also useful for paranoid suburbanites, as you can tell if there are cars driving that do not belong.
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:55 PM
DCnDC DCnDC is online now
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My parents' neighborhood has this weird sort of "half" cul-de-sac that seems to just be a way to fit more houses into an odd-shaped space. When I was a kid the neighborhood kids would play baseball there.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:12 PM
Dinsdale Dinsdale is offline
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Some suburbs are designed with them, because people like the reduction in through traffic, feel it fosters neighborliness, allows kids to play in the streets... If you look on real estate sites, they allow you to screen for cul-de-sac properties, suggesting a lot of folk like them. Me, I'd prefer a quiet through street.

When they are added later, the argument can be made that they are to reduce crime and/or dangerous through traffic. Oak Park, a suburb adjoining one of Chicago's worst neighborhoods (Austin), installed a bunch of them. Tho I spend a lot of time in Oak Park and grew up in Chicago just NE of there, when I get into some areas, it is like a maze. On Google, I saw an old Reader article suggesting "negrophobia" as an impetus.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:25 PM
PastTense PastTense is offline
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For cars the additional driving time is insignificant (say 1/4 block on a 20 block drive). For walking the additional time is significant--but in general suburbanites don't believe in walking. Thus you see the very bizarre phenomenon of school children being chauffered all over by their parents--while someone like myself either walked or biked when I was young.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:30 PM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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Our home is the last of three homes on a cul de sac (aka dead end) that is taken the additional step of being a private road. I love it. The only vehicle that ever comes to our house is someone we are expecting.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:32 PM
Evan Drake Evan Drake is offline
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They were popular in Ancient and Mediaeval towns ( especially in the Middle East ) because people back then weren't especially fond of the strangers within their gates.


The term is 18th century, just about the time Soho was getting a loose reputation ( Soho being a French hunting call, and cul-de-sac meaning base-of-the-bag ), but later there were many cul-de-sacs in other parts of London where the police only entered in pairs.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:52 PM
BigT BigT is online now
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My street was one, back when I moved in. You turn off one road on the highway, and then turn back to a strip of road with a dead end. As kids we were able to do a lot of biking and playing in the road. We drove those little cars, and the neighbor her fast wheelchair. We even rolled out our basketball hoops sometimes. The only traffic were people coming and leaving, and we could easily see and avoid each other. And we know when no one else will be coming back for a while.

Now it technically is no longer a dead end, but it has the same basic feature. It's just that there was one more house added to the end, and they wanted a quick way out to the high way. So they have this gravel road that's faster for them than to travel down our little street to the main street and then to the highway. Still, there's no reason at all for anyone else to use it. It's gravel, very curved, and there are no intersecting streets. Might as well drive on the highway a little further and turn on a paved road if you need to.

(The road that goes off the highway actually ends up a dirt road after a while. So it's pretty low traffic, too. There are three cul-de-sacs you can go to, and then a long stretch of nothing, great for driving before we got our licenses.)
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:55 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Culs-de-sac can also allow a property to be built with more development than if there were nothing but a grid of through streets. For example, the development I lived in as a teen was essentially a rectangular area bounded by three major streets and a property that was owned by the school district. It was roughly square, with sides of 1/4 mile length. At the edges of the property, instead of running each of the internal streets out to the main avenues, the streets ended in a cul de sac, allowing the property that would otherwise have been the exiting street to be developed with two houses. And along one side of the property (the side with the school-to-be behind it), there were a series of "circles" (culs-de-sac without any straight portion) off of a straight street, which meant that there were 24 properties sold (six per circle) rather than 8 - 12 properties along the street.

Often developments with culs-de-sac also have streets that are not straight; curving the streets slows traffic down and discourages driving through the neighborhood. Other aspects include true "circles", that is, streets that run in a three-sided rectangle pattern, returning to the street from which they originally exited. Some people consider developments like this superior to areas with gridded streets. However, my grandparents lived in an affluent Chicago suburb with gridded streets (La Grange), and I certainly would not assert that it was deficient in charming character for that fact.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:59 PM
sevenwood sevenwood is offline
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I live on a 1/4 mile-long dead-end road, which I guess you could call a cul-de-sac. It's wonderful. Low traffic, the neighborhood kids learn to ride their bikes on the circle at the end of the street. The only negative: the kids have to walk to the end of the street to get their school buses (which can't negotiate the relatively small circle at the end of the street).

BTW, the street design was more or less accidental: roughly 60 years ago some developer purchased an old estate to cut up into 1/2 acre lots, and the only practical approach was to run a single road through the middle of it. There was no way to connect it to the public road on the other side because existing houses were in the way. It's not a bug, it's a feature!

Last edited by sevenwood; 08-29-2017 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:17 PM
toast pakora toast pakora is offline
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the kids have to walk to the end of the street to get their school buses (which can't negotiate the relatively small circle at the end of the street)

I read (probably in Suburban Nation) that cul-de-sacs are so large because they had to accommodate fire trucks which at one time could not back up.

Dead end streets don't appeal to me. If you want to discourage through traffic, speed bumps and four way stops at every corner should be enough. Or just put a gate across the road leading into the development. That will accomplish the same thing.

The book also mentions that having developments with no through streets, feeds a lot more traffic onto the adjoining main roads which causes more traffic jams because there are no alternate routes. It's well worth reading, albeit depressing, to learn how sprawl happened.

Last edited by toast pakora; 08-29-2017 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:22 PM
Channing Idaho Banks Channing Idaho Banks is offline
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If you have read the coin packing thread you will know that optimum item placement is not perfect. The designers want the fewest number of roads and the most houses. These shapes are repeated in nature.

A large city is easy to organize in grids but the edges will still have cul-de-sacs.
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:37 PM
Riemann Riemann is offline
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Fourteen posts without an argument about the correct form of the plural?
Have you all been replaced with pod people?
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:07 PM
Dinsdale Dinsdale is offline
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Originally Posted by toast pakora View Post
...
Dead end streets don't appeal to me. If you want to discourage through traffic, speed bumps and four way stops at every corner should be enough.
...
Around the Chicago area, I've increasingly seen signs advertising/warning/inviting? "speed humps"! Anyone for a quickie?

Seems like most of the newer bumps/humps are broad and low, as opposed to the older abrupt ones. I generally dislike them, and have found that I can traverse these new ones pretty much without decreasing my speed. Same way I roll through the multitudinous stop signs.
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:09 PM
Atamasama Atamasama is offline
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Fourteen posts without an argument about the correct form of the plural?
Have you all been replaced with pod people?
Pods person.
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:15 PM
sevenwood sevenwood is offline
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Dead end streets don't appeal to me.
There's an easy solution: don't live on one.

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Originally Posted by toast pakora View Post
The book also mentions that having developments with no through streets, feeds a lot more traffic onto the adjoining main roads which causes more traffic jams because there are no alternate routes.
Recognize that the "alternate route" you're referring to involves driving through a residential area. One that folks live in.

One of our local streets is a residential street that connects to a major road at each end. Folks that take those two major roads regularly have figured out that they can avoid **two** traffic lights by cutting through that side street. Speed bumps don't help: the township has added three of them along that side street. Neither has making that side street a one-way street during rush hour (aside from the township making tons of money on the days they patrol that street during rush hour). The folks who live on that street hate it, as they have to deal with constant traffic involving people who see their community only as a way to save 60 seconds off of their commute. They are agitating to have one endpoint of their street permanently blocked off just to kill off that traffic.
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:43 PM
Atamasama Atamasama is offline
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One of our local streets is a residential street that connects to a major road at each end. Folks that take those two major roads regularly have figured out that they can avoid **two** traffic lights by cutting through that side street. Speed bumps don't help: the township has added three of them along that side street. Neither has making that side street a one-way street during rush hour (aside from the township making tons of money on the days they patrol that street during rush hour). The folks who live on that street hate it, as they have to deal with constant traffic involving people who see their community only as a way to save 60 seconds off of their commute. They are agitating to have one endpoint of their street permanently blocked off just to kill off that traffic.
I grew up in a cul de sac. Traffic was rare, not fast, and easy to avoid.

The first house I owned was on a cross street between two major residential streets and traffic was frequent and fast. I'll take the cul de sac, thanks.

It also wasn't great that in every major snowfall, that connector street was unplowed while the major streets were plowed, leaving a thick 3-foot high barrier of snow on either end you couldn't get past. Two years in a row I had to take sick days because the city blocked me in during the winter. I did try shoveling a path but it's just too much snow to do by hand.
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:54 PM
TriPolar TriPolar is offline
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[I]the kids have to walk to the end of the street to get their school buses (which can't negotiate the relatively small circle at the end of the street)
The kids have to walk to the end of the street!! Dear Og what is this world coming to?
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Old 08-29-2017, 04:10 PM
blondebear blondebear is offline
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The cul-de-sac behind my apartment has a lot of traffic day and night--people looking for a place to park. There's a serious shortage of parking at the complex next door and they use the cul-de-sac as an overflow lot.

Last edited by blondebear; 08-29-2017 at 04:14 PM.
  #22  
Old 08-29-2017, 04:14 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Quote:
Quoth sevenwood:

Recognize that the "alternate route" you're referring to involves driving through a residential area. One that folks live in.
Yes, and the folks who live in that area are the ones driving through it. Imagine a development surrounded by four major, through roads. If the development has exits onto all four of those roads, then when the residents go places, they'll go via all four of them. But if the development only has one exit, then when the residents go places, they all go via the same main road.
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Old 08-29-2017, 04:17 PM
Derleth Derleth is offline
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Fourteen posts without an argument about the correct form of the plural?
Have you all been replaced with pod people?
Anyone who knows, knows that we speak English here, and therefore form plurals after the English fashion.

Those who don't know, shouldn't ought to say.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:02 PM
dtilque dtilque is offline
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The kids have to walk to the end of the street!! Dear Og what is this world coming to?
When they're old, they'll be able to tell their grandkids that they walked to the end of the street uphill both ways, barefoot in the snow.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:07 PM
Ignatz Ignatz is offline
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Fourteen posts without an argument about the correct form of the plural?
Have you all been replaced with pod people?
Ils sont culs-des-sacs!

Charlotte, the largest city in North Carolina, prohibits them, thereby eliminating the need for service, emergency, delivery, trash trucks to drive double the distance unproductively and to minimize the chances of residents living past a road closure caused by a utility line break or a house fire from being isolated.
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:13 PM
seal_cleaner seal_cleaner is offline
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I've lived on one for 25 years. Great for the kids. A nearby town is infested with them. The fire department hates them.
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:00 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is online now
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Pods person.
I hereby award you one Internet.
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:03 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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In some situations, it's probably just a monetary decision. Property with road frontage costs more. Say you're a developer who's just bought a piece of cheap property with no road frontage located between two existing roads. You have to buy at least one additional piece of property adjacent to the road so you can build an access road to your property. But why buy two of them?
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:14 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Dead end streets don't appeal to me. If you want to discourage through traffic, speed bumps and four way stops at every corner should be enough. Or just put a gate across the road leading into the development. That will accomplish the same thing.
The trouble with this solution is that developers and residents don't get to decide whether or not they can do these things (unless the streets stay private, which they almost always don't). Here in South Carolina, once the streets become public (that is, owned by the state/county/city), you CANNOT gate the street to reduce access, as it's against the law. Speed bumps, stop signs, etc. have to be approved by the state/county/city, too.

I live near a well-known senior development south of Charlotte (a Del Webb property). The streets were originally privately owned by the development. The residents decided to deed them to the county, so they wouldn't have to pay the HOA fees for eventual repair/replacement. They got really upset when they found out that meant they had to take the gates down at the entrances.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:27 PM
Lord Feldon Lord Feldon is offline
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Speed bumps, stop signs, etc. have to be approved by the state/county/city, too.
And assuming they follow the guidelines, I don't think "discouraging through traffic" is a valid reason for either. Speed bumps are for streets on which there's a documented history of excessive speeding, and stop signs are strictly for managing the flow of traffic at intersections.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 08-29-2017 at 11:31 PM.
  #31  
Old 08-30-2017, 05:06 AM
madmonk28 madmonk28 is offline
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A few years ago, Virginia made cul de sacs much more difficult to get building permits. Their reason is that these kinds of developments create huge traffic jams on the few through roads that do exist. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...032102248.html

Quote:
The changes come as cash-strapped states and localities can no longer afford the inexorable widening of secondary roads that are overburdened with traffic from the subdivisions, strip malls, schools and office buildings that feed into them. The system forces drivers to enter these traffic-choked roads to go even 50 yards or so to the neighborhood coffeehouse or elementary school. North Carolina and Portland, Ore., are moving on similar fronts.

"When you have 350 to 400 miles a year of new roads you have to maintain forever, it's a budgetary problem," said Virginia Gov. Timothy M. Kaine (D), who pushed the new regulations through the Commonwealth Transportation Board last month. Virginia has had to cut more than $2.2 billion from its six-year transportation spending plan. "But it's not just about the money. It's about connecting land-use and transportation planning and restricting wasteful and unplanned development."

To buy a gallon of milk, the Goffs have to drive onto Linton Hall Road, one of the busiest streets in the region, and go a mile to Safeway. Goff said that it would be easier if there were back roads that connected to the Safeway but that it wouldn't be worth the increase in through traffic.
  #32  
Old 08-30-2017, 09:20 AM
markn+ markn+ is offline
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The term is 18th century, just about the time Soho was getting a loose reputation ( Soho being a French hunting call, and cul-de-sac meaning base-of-the-bag )
Incidentally, the name of Bilbo Baggin's house Bag End is a calque of cul-de-sac. It was the name of Tolkien's aunt's house, and it undoubtedly appealed to Tolkien because of the word play and the appropriateness of the name as a residence for a character named Baggins.
  #33  
Old 08-30-2017, 10:09 AM
Andy L Andy L is online now
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Originally Posted by markn+ View Post
Incidentally, the name of Bilbo Baggin's house Bag End is a calque of cul-de-sac. It was the name of Tolkien's aunt's house, and it undoubtedly appealed to Tolkien because of the word play and the appropriateness of the name as a residence for a character named Baggins.
It's pretty clear, I think, that the family name "Baggins" is supposed to have come from the name of the estate "Bag End" (also note that the hoity-toity branch of the family used the name "Sackville" - the same name in French-form).

Last edited by Andy L; 08-30-2017 at 10:09 AM.
  #34  
Old 08-30-2017, 10:23 AM
jz78817 jz78817 is online now
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and the worst part about newer subdivisions in my area which are laid out like this are they often don't have sidewalks either. so kids walk down the middle of the street and shoot you nasty looks if you have the gall to expect them to step out of the way.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:55 AM
markn+ markn+ is offline
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It's pretty clear, I think, that the family name "Baggins" is supposed to have come from the name of the estate "Bag End"
I'm not sure whether by "supposed to have come" you mean internally (in the world of Middle Earth) or externally (in the mind of Tolkien). Internally of course, the name Bag End is merely a translation into English of the actual Westron word, and the phonetic association of "Baggins" with "Bag End" is a deliberate reflection of the phonetic association of the corresponding Westron names (Labingi and Labin-nec).

As to what Tolkien considered to be their internal relationship, in a draft for the Appendix to Lord of the Rings, in a section setting out elaborate relationships between names in Westron and English, Tolkien wrote
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
Baggins
H[obbit name] Labingi. It is by no means certain that this name is really connected with C[ommon] S[peech] labin ' a bag'; but it was believed to be so, and one may compare Labin-nec 'Bag End' as the name of the residence of Bungo Baggins (Bunga Labingi). I have accordingly rendered the name Labingi by Baggins, which gives I think, a very close equivalent in readily appreciable modern terms.
So even whether the words were related at all is said to be questionable (perhaps folk etymology on the part of the Hobbits).

Last edited by markn+; 08-30-2017 at 10:58 AM.
  #36  
Old 08-30-2017, 11:44 AM
Andy L Andy L is online now
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Originally Posted by markn+ View Post
I'm not sure whether by "supposed to have come" you mean internally (in the world of Middle Earth) or externally (in the mind of Tolkien). Internally of course, the name Bag End is merely a translation into English of the actual Westron word, and the phonetic association of "Baggins" with "Bag End" is a deliberate reflection of the phonetic association of the corresponding Westron names (Labingi and Labin-nec).

As to what Tolkien considered to be their internal relationship, in a draft for the Appendix to Lord of the Rings, in a section setting out elaborate relationships between names in Westron and English, Tolkien wrote


So even whether the words were related at all is said to be questionable (perhaps folk etymology on the part of the Hobbits).
Thanks. I suppose "Sackville" could be a bit of folk etymology too by the branch of the family that felt "Baggins"/"Bag End" was too common, and wanted to be more elegant, since Tolkien does say that "it is believed" (by Hobbits) that Baggins and Bag End are related words.
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Old 08-30-2017, 02:23 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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That is an excellent link. It is a paper discussing the history of block design, comparing grids to loops and cul-de-sacs and then proposing a new suburban layout that uses straight roads but that are loops or cul-de-sacs. With connecting walking paths and green space to make pedestrian use more palatable.

It also discusses the trade offs of the various designs. Grid patterns are problematic because traffic has to sort out right of way at each intersection, necessitating traffic lights. This forces cars to have to stop every intersection, roughly every 7 seconds. That ruins the benefit of the car - speed of transportation. Also, cities with grids often have to turn to making alternating one-way roads and other means to channel the traffic.

The next concept is the wandering, curvy roads that don't go in straight lines and don't go straight through. This reduces the incentive to use the roads as shortcuts, which reduces through traffic somewhat.

Loops and cul-de-sacs are next, whereby you close off portions of road that either dead end or return to the street where they started. This means very little traffic.

There are also trade offs associated with pedestrian use of each type, generally with the opposite result of benefit vs. detriment.


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Originally Posted by Dinsdale View Post
Me, I'd prefer a quiet through street.
The reason cul-de-sacs and loops were invented was the fact that through streets are seldom quiet.

That article above also discusses that the factors that affect car use primarily are number of people in household, distance from business district, and household wealth. Street patterns were ninth on the list of influences.

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Originally Posted by toast pakora View Post
Dead end streets don't appeal to me. If you want to discourage through traffic, speed bumps and four way stops at every corner should be enough.
Speed bumps create the biggest hassle to the residents who have to negotiate them every day. They are rough on passengers and cars, and don't really work that well because cars just accelerate and brake hard between the bumps. Four way stops on every corner are likely already there, since residential neighborhoods seldom use internal stoplights but do like to aid intersection navigation. But drivers will race through a straight road that has three or four stop signs if it keeps them from sitting through 2 or three traffic lights to go the main roads.

Quote:
Or just put a gate across the road leading into the development. That will accomplish the same thing.
Wait, you don't like dead end roads, but are okay with fencing off a road to create... a dead end road? Or do you mean an access gate that requires a code or card? Those are more trouble for the residents, who might want deliveries or visitors. Plus, from my experience at gated apartments, they either leave the gates open or people squeeze through behind someone else entering.

Quote:
The book also mentions that having developments with no through streets, feeds a lot more traffic onto the adjoining main roads which causes more traffic jams because there are no alternate routes. It's well worth reading, albeit depressing, to learn how sprawl happened.
Traffic is a problem whether the roads are a grid or a closed development. With closed developments, you need to plan the arterials and connectors to handle the traffic for that area. But increasing population is increasing traffic everywhere, and whether you put that traffic on arterials to sit at lights or funnel it through grids to stop at 4 way stops every 100 ft, too many cars is too many cars.

The real issue is suburban development that isolates residential from commercial use and makes pedestrian use more troublesome than driving. Once you are already out driving your car to get from A to B, it's simpler to stop off at C, D, and E than to plan walking trips to accomplish the same.

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Originally Posted by Dinsdale View Post
Seems like most of the newer bumps/humps are broad and low, as opposed to the older abrupt ones. I generally dislike them, and have found that I can traverse these new ones pretty much without decreasing my speed. Same way I roll through the multitudinous stop signs.
Yeah, people try that and scrape up the road on both sides of the humps because they look gradual. Or they are gradual and don't have any effect.

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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Yes, and the folks who live in that area are the ones driving through it. Imagine a development surrounded by four major, through roads. If the development has exits onto all four of those roads, then when the residents go places, they'll go via all four of them. But if the development only has one exit, then when the residents go places, they all go via the same main road.
True, but straight through roads are draws for non-residents who wish to avoid traffic lights and crowded streets, so they cut through neighborhoods, often at higher speeds than residents would because of children.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post
and the worst part about newer subdivisions in my area which are laid out like this are they often don't have sidewalks either. so kids walk down the middle of the street and shoot you nasty looks if you have the gall to expect them to step out of the way.
I grew up in a neighborhood without sidewalks. Nice large yards, big trees, two lane blacktop streets. Low traffic, lots of running around in streets, walking in streets, riding bikes, etc. When I got old enough to drive, never really had trouble with kids not moving out of the way. Now when I live in more modern subdivisions where the houses are closer, the yards smaller, and sidewalks parallel to the street, I am uncomfortable using the sidewalks - to me it feels like an intrusion into that person's space, because the 2 to 4 feet of margin and then the sidewalk mean you're halfway to the house sometimes. In a low traffic suburban loop and cul-de-sac neighborhood, I don't see the point of the sidewalks, anyway. Pay attention and don't block traffic like a dumb ass so you don't get run over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markn+ View Post
As to what Tolkien considered to be their internal relationship, in a draft for the Appendix to Lord of the Rings, in a section setting out elaborate relationships between names in Westron and English, Tolkien wrote


So even whether the words were related at all is said to be questionable (perhaps folk etymology on the part of the Hobbits).
Are you really saying Tolkien didn't know if he intended the name Baggins and Bag End to be related?
  #38  
Old 08-30-2017, 03:46 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markn+ View Post
I'm not sure whether by "supposed to have come" you mean internally (in the world of Middle Earth) or externally (in the mind of Tolkien). Internally of course, the name Bag End is merely a translation into English of the actual Westron word, and the phonetic association of "Baggins" with "Bag End" is a deliberate reflection of the phonetic association of the corresponding Westron names (Labingi and Labin-nec).

As to what Tolkien considered to be their internal relationship, in a draft for the Appendix to Lord of the Rings, in a section setting out elaborate relationships between names in Westron and English, Tolkien wrote


So even whether the words were related at all is said to be questionable (perhaps folk etymology on the part of the Hobbits).
Given that The Hobbit was written in draft form on the blank space in a student's exam book from Oxford as a story for his son, and wasn't even clearly set in "Middle-Earth" at the time he started writing it, in reality the name Baggins and the name Bag-End must have been related in some way to each other, and since Tolkien has said that "Bag End" was the name of his aunt's house, and he presumably picked that name on purpose, then one must suspect that "Baggins" came from "Bag End".
  #39  
Old 08-30-2017, 04:40 PM
bob++ bob++ is online now
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Originally Posted by Riemann View Post
Fourteen posts without an argument about the correct form of the plural?
Have you all been replaced with pod people?
You do know that they don't have cul de sacs in France, don't you?
  #40  
Old 08-30-2017, 05:38 PM
markn+ markn+ is offline
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Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
Are you really saying Tolkien didn't know if he intended the name Baggins and Bag End to be related?
No, I'm saying that in the quote that I posted, he says that it is "by no means certain" that labingi and labin-nec are related. As I stated, I'm discussing the "internal" relationship of the names, that is, their relationship in the fictional world of Middle Earth as Tolkien described it.
  #41  
Old 08-30-2017, 05:40 PM
markn+ markn+ is offline
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Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq View Post
Given that The Hobbit was written in draft form on the blank space in a student's exam book from Oxford as a story for his son, and wasn't even clearly set in "Middle-Earth" at the time he started writing it, in reality the name Baggins and the name Bag-End must have been related in some way to each other, and since Tolkien has said that "Bag End" was the name of his aunt's house, and he presumably picked that name on purpose, then one must suspect that "Baggins" came from "Bag End".
This is most likely true, but this is unrelated to what I posted. You're discussing the "external" relationship of the names, that is how they developed and were related in the author's mind when he created them. I was discussing the internal relationship, their fictional relationship in the world of Middle Earth.
  #42  
Old 08-30-2017, 06:16 PM
jz78817 jz78817 is online now
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Nothing that the OP's question has probably been answered to the best of the board's abilities, I think it's hilarious it's gone off on a tangent about Lord of the Rings.
  #43  
Old 08-30-2017, 06:44 PM
Andy L Andy L is online now
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Originally Posted by markn+ View Post
No, I'm saying that in the quote that I posted, he says that it is "by no means certain" that labingi and labin-nec are related. As I stated, I'm discussing the "internal" relationship of the names, that is, their relationship in the fictional world of Middle Earth as Tolkien described it.
And I appreciate that information (and get a certain amount of amusement over how thoroughly Tolkien kept up the notion that he was a translator, trying to produce the most appropriate English analogues (note spelling) for the words he was translating from the Red Book of Westmarch).
  #44  
Old 08-30-2017, 07:51 PM
Derleth Derleth is offline
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Originally Posted by Andy L View Post
analogues (note spelling)
Yes, and the analog of that word in American English is spelled "analog", as you can see in the catalog of words referred to as a dictionary.
  #45  
Old 08-30-2017, 08:12 PM
Andy L Andy L is online now
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Originally Posted by Derleth View Post
Yes, and the analog of that word in American English is spelled "analog", as you can see in the catalog of words referred to as a dictionary.

Yep. But since I was talking about Tolkien's process, I figured I'd use British spelling in that case.
  #46  
Old 08-31-2017, 10:37 AM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markn+ View Post
No, I'm saying that in the quote that I posted, he says that it is "by no means certain" that labingi and labin-nec are related. As I stated, I'm discussing the "internal" relationship of the names, that is, their relationship in the fictional world of Middle Earth as Tolkien described it.
Fair enough.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy L View Post
And I appreciate that information (and get a certain amount of amusement over how thoroughly Tolkien kept up the notion that he was a translator, trying to produce the most appropriate English analogues (note spelling) for the words he was translating from the Red Book of Westmarch).
Yes, I was amused by the bit in LotR where Tolkien discusses his choice of "Meriadoc". Wikipedia says:
Quote:
In this guise of translator, he maintained that the character's real name was not Meriadoc Brandybuck but rather Kalimac Brandagamba. This was said to be an actual phonetic transcription of the name in Tolkien's invented language of Westron, which Tolkien said he transliterated to English as follows: The nickname "Merry" represents his actual nickname Kali which meant "handsome, happy", and "Meriadoc" serves as a plausible name from which a nickname meaning "happy" could be derived.[8] Alternately, The Middle-Earth Encyclopedia writes that Meriadoc means "joyful" or "cheerful," while Merry means "having high spirits."[3]
  #47  
Old 08-31-2017, 12:57 PM
BigT BigT is online now
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Originally Posted by Atamasama View Post
It also wasn't great that in every major snowfall, that connector street was unplowed while the major streets were plowed, leaving a thick 3-foot high barrier of snow on either end you couldn't get past. Two years in a row I had to take sick days because the city blocked me in during the winter. I did try shoveling a path but it's just too much snow to do by hand.
That wasn't a problem here. Someone (maybe the HOA) always pays the plows to go down our street. The main issue is that, since we are out of town, we're lower priority. Fortunately, our snow usually doesn't get that high. My dad is really good at driving on snow. The rest of us didn't need to go out, because school would be canceled.

Last edited by BigT; 08-31-2017 at 12:57 PM.
  #48  
Old 08-31-2017, 11:05 PM
gigi gigi is offline
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Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
Our home is the last of three homes on a cul de sac (aka dead end) that is taken the additional step of being a private road. I love it. The only vehicle that ever comes to our house is someone we are expecting.
I went to pick up a friend on her street and I hadn't been there before so I went past her house. No problem, it says Dead End, I'll just see what the whole street is about and turn around and get her. Yeah, except it dead ended in the driveway/dooryard of the house at the end. And the guy after whose family the road is named just happens to be in his car leaving. Um, yeah, don't mind me...
  #49  
Old 09-01-2017, 11:22 AM
kayaker kayaker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gigi View Post
I went to pick up a friend on her street and I hadn't been there before so I went past her house. No problem, it says Dead End, I'll just see what the whole street is about and turn around and get her. Yeah, except it dead ended in the driveway/dooryard of the house at the end. And the guy after whose family the road is named just happens to be in his car leaving. Um, yeah, don't mind me...
Heh, yeah, maybe once a year someone will be driving down the dead-end road off of which our private dead end road branches. Instead of turning around and leaving, for some reason they will ignore the "PRIVATE ROAD DO NOT ENTER" sign and proceed down our road.

When they reach the end they are at our home, and there typically is no way for them to do a u-turn (if our vehicles/trailers/boats/tractor are in the way). I feel bad for them, backing up a few feet at a time on a narrow, gravel, 1/4 mile lane.
  #50  
Old 09-01-2017, 08:42 PM
CelticKnot CelticKnot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
Heh, yeah, maybe once a year someone will be driving down the dead-end road off of which our private dead end road branches. Instead of turning around and leaving, for some reason they will ignore the "PRIVATE ROAD DO NOT ENTER" sign and proceed down our road.

When they reach the end they are at our home, and there typically is no way for them to do a u-turn (if our vehicles/trailers/boats/tractor are in the way). I feel bad for them, backing up a few feet at a time on a narrow, gravel, 1/4 mile lane.
I wouldn't feel bad for them at all. It's called consequences.
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