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Old 09-30-2017, 09:13 AM
FairyChatMom FairyChatMom is online now
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Ignoring doctor's orders

This is fresh in my mind - my FIL had surgery on Wednesday to repair damage to his Achilles tendon. He's 87, and I'm guessing his age will affect how soon and how well he'll heal. He's been told to stay off his foot for 2 weeks, so when he has to get around, it's one foot and a walker. But even that is supposed to be minimal.

My husband went to help out his folks, and he indicated that his dad is disinclined to do what he's been told. Because when he was a young man, he didn't let something like a sore leg slow him down, dammit!!

OK, not his words, but his attitude. And that's an attitude I have a hard time understanding. You go to a doctor because you need his/her expertise with an issue. The doctor says, variously, alter your diet, change your activity level, take these meds, avoid this or that, come back for a recheck in XX days. I wonder how often people actually follow these instructions.

One never takes a full course of antibiotics - once she feels better, she saves the rest for the next time (self medication.) Another was told he's diabetic and he needs to follow a specific diet and get exercise... yeah... like that's going to happen. Another was told to stop smoking and ease up on alcohol consumption. Another was told to stop taking medical advice from the internet.

I don't get it. Is it denial of mortality? Revolt against authority? "You're not the boss of me!!!" You have to make the effort and make the appointment - why would you then ignore the advice and guidance?

Sometimes I just don't understand people.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:07 AM
Trinopus Trinopus is offline
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Might just be sticking with what's comfortable. It doesn't have to be an overt revolt against authority -- although maybe that's part of it. I think it's just preferring immediate gratification over long-term deferred rewards.

(Which, by the way, is one of my definitions for the word "wisdom.")

I knew a guy who had diabetes, and *mostly* followed instructions, but cheated now and then, and got lazy now and then. He's gone now....

I decided, some years ago, to ignore advice to eat less salt. I like salt. So, heck with it, I just pour it on. I know I'm harming myself...but it isn't as bad as smoking, and I know an awful lot of smokers.

Some of us got no more wisdom than a back molar.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:13 AM
dolphinboy dolphinboy is offline
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People make poor decision every day. Usually they survive, and in doing so they learn that advice is just that, advice. I follow my doctor's advice to the letter because he's the expert, not me, and since I paid him all this money... okay my insurance company paid him all this money, I assume he knows what he's doing. I sometimes go to the Internet to verify what he told me, but he's never lied to me and following his advice has never done me harm. I know people who think they are smarter than everyone else. I'm not sure why they even bother to see the doctor since they often ignore the advice they are given. Perhaps if they had to actually pay the doctor bill themselves they would take the advice more seriously... but somehow I doubt it.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:29 AM
madsircool madsircool is offline
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I would think the pain would be enough to keep him off his feet. A loss of balance might prove fatal at his age. Otoh, who wants to go to the bathroom in front of someone else?
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:02 PM
Tom Terrific Tom Terrific is offline
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Sometimes people do or continue to do things that may not be in their best interests. Your 87 yo. FIL may look at staying off his bad leg as something against his best interest. He is 87 and active. How did he get there, by not letting a sore leg stop him. His view may well be that if he stops for a couple of weeks he may not be able to resume his normal level of activity.

Everyone decides for themselves what is worth their efforts to change. I am 6'3" and 300 lbs. I know what I should do. Lose weight, duh. Will I? In spite of what my doctor tells me I am pretty sure I'll go on just as I have been.

Here is the deal, IMHO, almost everyone knows what they should do differently to extend their lives. Just because something may extend your life doesn't mean it will enhance your life.
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:08 PM
CookingWithGas CookingWithGas is offline
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Your FIL is just a little younger than my dad would have been (born 1923). Those guys are from the "greatest generation" and many of them are tough old bastards who do not take orders well.

It could be individual personality but IME this type of personality is common among that generation, partly because of living through the Great Depression and especially those who saw action in WWII.
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:22 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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I suspect the optimal strategy is to not emphasize that it's "doctor's orders", but instead "here's what your caregivers think will best empower you to most quickly get back to optimal health so you can do the things you want" (maybe not in those exact words).

Doing something on your own to improve health is a very satisfying thing. It's just that we need to recognize that following our own path (or that of Some Guy On The Internet) doesn't necessarily work out well.
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:53 PM
jerez jerez is offline
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...why would you then ignore the advice and guidance?
It's hard to be unwell and not to be able to enjoy comforting habits in the meantime.
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Old 09-30-2017, 01:33 PM
FairyChatMom FairyChatMom is online now
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Originally Posted by Tom Terrific View Post
Sometimes people do or continue to do things that may not be in their best interests. Your 87 yo. FIL may look at staying off his bad leg as something against his best interest. He is 87 and active. How did he get there, by not letting a sore leg stop him. His view may well be that if he stops for a couple of weeks he may not be able to resume his normal level of activity.
Ah, but it's not just a sore leg. He tore his Achilles when he went outside during Irma because he heard something. I still can't wrap my head around why an otherwise intelligent man would go out INTO A HURRICANE because he heard a noise! They had power, the roof was not leaking, the windows were intact...

Sorry - this is turning into a rant. Compounded because my husband had to drive 800 miles to help out his folks, missing work time and taking him away from a project he's trying to wrap up, and leaving me home alone. I don't want FIL's recovery to drag out longer than necessary because he's being stubborn. And MIL has macular degeneration so she can't drive and until FIL is recovered, they're pretty much stuck.

<deep calming breath>

And that's why you should listen to what the professionals say.
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Old 09-30-2017, 01:35 PM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is offline
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Sometimes I just don't understand people.
People are primates. Just watch the primates in the monkey house at the zoo, and eventually you'll learn all you need to know about human behavior.

Logic? Reason? My ass . . .
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Old 09-30-2017, 01:56 PM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
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What is a "doctor's"?
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:00 PM
erysichthon erysichthon is offline
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Originally Posted by FairyChatMom View Post
I don't get it. Is it denial of mortality? Revolt against authority? "You're not the boss of me!!!" You have to make the effort and make the appointment - why would you then ignore the advice and guidance?

Sometimes I just don't understand people.
I wonder about this too.

I have a friend who is constantly saying "Those doctors don't know anything!" She's single, never married, an only child, and always has to be the smartest person in the room. A few years ago she injured her leg in a fall. She refused to comply with her physician's recommendations for rest and recovery, and she'll probably be using a walker for the rest of her life. Amazingly, she still hasn't admitted that mayyybe her doctor was right this time.

I also know a guy (wouldn't describe him as a friend) who boasts about ignoring his physician's advice about diet and alcohol use. He claims that living longer isn't worth it if he has to give up his beloved fatty foods and beer.

And don't get me started on smokers who talk about their Aunt Hazel who went through five packs of unfiltered Camels a day and lived to be 112.
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:06 PM
FairyChatMom FairyChatMom is online now
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What is a "doctor's"?
Is there something unclear about doctor's orders - as in the orders given by a doctor? I'm not an English major but I'm pretty sure that's correct usage.
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:49 PM
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I think for a lot of people, not being able to do exactly what they are used to doing, or having to use a walker, wheelchair, take medications, the list could go on makes them feel as though they are showing a weakness. Even though in the long run, following a doctor's orders and using a cane or taking all of a medication has its benefits usually, it's often, imo, a psychological or image related reason that makes people refuse or question a course of treatment. Some people are just damn stubborn, too.
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:58 PM
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You go to a doctor because you need his/her expertise with an issue. The doctor says, variously, alter your diet, change your activity level, take these meds, avoid this or that, come back for a recheck in XX days. I wonder how often people actually follow these instructions.
[snip]

I don't get it. Is it denial of mortality? Revolt against authority? "You're not the boss of me!!!" You have to make the effort and make the appointment - why would you then ignore the advice and guidance?

Sometimes I just don't understand people.
The piece you're missing is that sometimes "experts" actually know less than some other people, and sometimes their advice can be downright harmful.

Not that many years ago, the doctors were telling everybody to avoid eggs like the plague, because of all that deadly cholesterol. Guess what? It turns out that eggs are actually healthy. Some years before that, doctors were saying to avoid that "unhealthy" butter and use "healthy" margarine instead. Oops--they got that one backwards.

Currently, a lot of doctors are still following the fad that cholesterol is bad for you. Guess what? Cholesterol is absolutely essential to the proper functioning of the body, and furthermore, most of a person's cholesterol is manufactured by their body; I think roughly 20% comes from diet.

There are other examples of the so-called experts knowing less than somebody who knows how to observe things properly and has basic reasoning skills.
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Old 09-30-2017, 03:15 PM
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And then there's the conflicting experts issue. My cardiologist in California told me the ratio of cholesterol is more important than the individual levels and mine was wonderful. My Texas cardiologist says I should take a statin, because. He had a couple of reasons to do with plaque and keeping it hard and blah, but after I had a bunch of tests he admitted the plaque issue doesn't really apply to me, yet he still wants me to take lipitor. Guess what. I am not taking a statin despite what the expert says. See why we don't always trust the doctor?
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Old 09-30-2017, 04:19 PM
PastTense PastTense is online now
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Well something like the FIL staying off the foot could turn out to be self-enforcing--it may well be that you put some pressure on it and it gets very painful very fast.
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Old 09-30-2017, 05:14 PM
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The piece you're missing is that sometimes "experts" actually know less than some other people, and sometimes their advice can be downright harmful.
Unfortunately it is more often the case that those other people know a lot less than the experts and are doing harmful things to themselves. Look at the anti-vaxxers for example.
Quote:
Not that many years ago, the doctors were telling everybody to avoid eggs like the plague, because of all that deadly cholesterol. Guess what? It turns out that eggs are actually healthy. Some years before that, doctors were saying to avoid that "unhealthy" butter and use "healthy" margarine instead. Oops--they got that one backwards.
The doctors or press reports of studies. My doctor never told me to stop eating eggs - I doubt many did.
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Currently, a lot of doctors are still following the fad that cholesterol is bad for you. Guess what? Cholesterol is absolutely essential to the proper functioning of the body, and furthermore, most of a person's cholesterol is manufactured by their body; I think roughly 20% comes from diet.
Nobody is calling for an LDL level of 0. Some being essential does not mean that too much is good. Yes, much of your cholesterol level is genetic - mine is the lowest my doctor has ever seen unmedicated, and I eat plenty of eggs. But having a high level due to genetics is not an excuse to do nothing about it.
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There are other examples of the so-called experts knowing less than somebody who knows how to observe things properly and has basic reasoning skills.
That's right, people with Ph.Ds in medicine or biology have no reasoning skills.
But I'm fine if a 55 year old does stuff that is going to kill him in five years. More Social Security and Medicare for me.
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:07 PM
kopek kopek is offline
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In the care-free days of my youth I often ignored the advice the doctor gave me concerning injuries. Today several places in my body remind me of that fact every morning or on damp days. These days what the doctor wants, I do exactly as directed.

Learning curves are wonderful things.
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:20 PM
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Medical opinion is not black and white. A doctor tells you what works best for most people, but it is not meant to imply that you must absolutely do this or not do that. Hopefully, the doctor will phrase his advice to best guide the patient according to his own nature. A good doctor will explain to a patient why the advice is being given, and the consequences of ignoring it.

My doctors, luckily, are smart and caring enough that they know what advice I will ignore, and they fashion the recovery advice to match what they can expect me to do. We get along fine, and I'm kept healthy.

Remember, Rules are to guide the wise and command the foolish. How wise, in general, is FIL?

Last edited by jtur88; 09-30-2017 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:17 PM
kayaker kayaker is online now
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Meh, he's lived to be 87, he must be dong something right.
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:29 PM
BobBitchin' BobBitchin' is offline
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The piece you're missing is that sometimes "experts" actually know less than some other people, and sometimes their advice can be downright harmful.

Not that many years ago, the doctors were telling everybody to avoid eggs like the plague, because of all that deadly cholesterol. Guess what? It turns out that eggs are actually healthy. Some years before that, doctors were saying to avoid that "unhealthy" butter and use "healthy" margarine instead. Oops--they got that one backwards.

Currently, a lot of doctors are still following the fad that cholesterol is bad for you. Guess what? Cholesterol is absolutely essential to the proper functioning of the body, and furthermore, most of a person's cholesterol is manufactured by their body; I think roughly 20% comes from diet.

There are other examples of the so-called experts knowing less than somebody who knows how to observe things properly and has basic reasoning skills.
And might I add to this great post...

By the time you're 87 you have been lied to by so many authorities on so many topics, it must be hard not to be distrustful in some ways.
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:45 PM
RivkahChaya RivkahChaya is offline
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Once my cousins who are doctors were bitching together about people who come to them for advice, and get told to change their diet and get specific advice about motion-- not just "get exercise," but specific things, and they get ignored. Then the person gets essentially the same advice from a "naturopath" who took an internet course, or the guy who works an GNC, or the co-op, who has no education at all, and they follow it to the letter, and then tell everyone how the doctor couldn't help them, but this other person did, and they are a miraculous healer.

People don't want practical advice from doctors, for some reason. They want pills, and maybe an appliance, but gawd, not advice, especially on lifestyle changes.

I don't know the reason; people just want something from doctors that they can't get elsewhere, I suppose, and "rest," seems like something you shouldn't have to pay for, I guess. Albeit, I love hearing that from my doctor, because it usually means I can get my husband to do everything around the house for a couple of days. It also means I have to return the favor when he is sick, but that's OK. I tend to get sick more than he does.
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Old 10-01-2017, 01:08 AM
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And might I add to this great post...

By the time you're 87 you have been lied to by so many authorities on so many topics, it must be hard not to be distrustful in some ways.
First, I hope you realize that reporting on the results of a study is not lying, even if other studies produce contrary information. Especially since almost any study will have lots of information on what the limitations are, stuff ignored by the news media.
Second, people convinced authorities are lying often ignore all evidence to the contrary. I've seen anti-vaxxers - anti polio vaccine - claim that the massive decrease in polio cases after the Salk and Sabin vaccines were the result of better water treatment, not the vaccines. I was alive then - this is bullshit.
Remember, the people who think they know the most are the people who know the least.
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Old 10-01-2017, 07:58 AM
FairyChatMom FairyChatMom is online now
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Meh, he's lived to be 87, he must be dong something right.
Like the time he was way up on an extension ladder, chain saw in one hand, leaning out to cut down a branch?? He was in his 60s at the time.

Or the time he blew his fingertip off firing a homemade cannon? He was a teenager at the time.

And other things that I'm not going to list...

He's not a stupid man by any means. But sometimes I have to wonder. And I don't know if it's genetic or a learned behavior, but I see similar choices being made by his firstborn. Maybe it's a guy thing that I don't understand.
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Old 10-01-2017, 08:41 AM
kayaker kayaker is online now
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Heh, I have to defend your FIL, since I'm pretty similar. I've had a close call or two with a chainsaw, and recieved some avoidable injuries during recreational activities. I've kayaked potentially risky waters, solo.

My attitude is that I'd rather live 40 fun-filled years than 80 quiet ones.


ETA: for all we know, his working the Achilles early on might lead to less scarring and he'll wind up with better mobility.

Last edited by kayaker; 10-01-2017 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:26 AM
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And then there's the conflicting experts issue. My cardiologist in California told me the ratio of cholesterol is more important than the individual levels and mine was wonderful. My Texas cardiologist says I should take a statin, because. He had a couple of reasons to do with plaque and keeping it hard and blah, but after I had a bunch of tests he admitted the plaque issue doesn't really apply to me, yet he still wants me to take lipitor. Guess what. I am not taking a statin despite what the expert says. See why we don't always trust the doctor?
Are you my husband in disguise by any chance? His reason for not taking Lipitor is exactly the same.

I think, in some cases, doctors want certain people to start taking it to prevent *something* happening. There's a history of heart issues in my husband's family. He has never shown any symptoms of inheriting such. But, because the history is there, his doctor wants all bases covered "just in case".
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:37 AM
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I think for a lot of people, not being able to do exactly what they are used to doing, or having to use a walker, wheelchair, take medications, the list could go on makes them feel as though they are showing a weakness.
I had foot surgery back in July. I'm not back to work yet because there were complications during the surgery and more of my foot had to be broken/reset than initially anticipated. I was put in a cast that went up to my knee immediately afterward. I had that for the first thee weeks. Why that particular cast? Because it purposely slowed me down so I couldn't prove to the world that hey, I'm invincible! My surgeon knows me too well, LOL.

Quote:
Even though in the long run, following a doctor's orders and using a cane or taking all of a medication has its benefits usually, it's often, imo, a psychological or image related reason that makes people refuse or question a course of treatment. Some people are just damn stubborn, too.
I'm a food service lifer and physically being able to run around doing a zillion things is par for the course. It's how I'm wired. "Relax" never existed in my vocabulary until this particular surgery and only because I've been forced to (nope, can't go back to work until X time, don't bother asking, says my surgeon, if you go back now you're going to screw up something by virtue of what you do.)

And you know what? My surgeon is correct. I had a very bad fall the other night walking our dogs. I fell because my repaired foot no longer pivots the way it's supposed to, nor can I forcefully push off it if I were running. I managed to hang onto the dogs, though, and totter home. I've just pushed back a few weeks of healing because I *had* to prove to myself that my foot was strong enough to withstand walking our dogs
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:02 AM
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I think, in some cases, doctors want certain people to start taking it to prevent *something* happening. There's a history of heart issues in my husband's family. He has never shown any symptoms of inheriting such. But, because the history is there, his doctor wants all bases covered "just in case".
And sometimes it's the doctor being lazy...

There is some very severe heart disease in my mom's family and I've had one or two docs want to immediately start treating me as a cardiac patient despite no evidence of cardiovascular disease (low resting heart rate, blood pressure low end of normal, low cholesterol levels, general fitness, etc.) Turns out most of the heart disease in mom's family is genetic, it's down to one bad gene that you either inherit or you don't - and I didn't. I do not have the bad gene. I do not have mom's heart disease. There is no way I will spontaneously develop mom's heart disease. It is entirely inappropriate to treat me for a disease or condition I do not have.

Statins are not harmless. They can cause muscle damage that, untreated or with delayed treatment can cause kidney damage. They put the patient at risk of liver damage. They can trigger or aggravate Type 2 diabetes. While some people tolerate them administering them to people "just because" or because they're a certain age without examining the patient and evaluating the risks and benefits is flat out bad medicine.

Of course, most of the time the doctor is right, especially in the case of acute injuries, but not always. But, crazy me, I usually consult another doctor for a second opinion. Not everyone does.

Then, of course, you have the idiots who just won't listen even if the doctor is right. In some cases - deciding you want to maintain a lifestyle rather than live longer - it is arguably the right of the patient to make that decision. Other times... well, it just looks stupid to me. Maybe it's denial. Maybe it's cultural/social programming to never show weakness.
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Old 10-01-2017, 01:47 PM
Patx2 Patx2 is offline
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I had foot surgery back in July. I'm not back to work yet because there were complications during the surgery and more of my foot had to be broken/reset than initially anticipated. I was put in a cast that went up to my knee immediately afterward. I had that for the first thee weeks. Why that particular cast? Because it purposely slowed me down so I couldn't prove to the world that hey, I'm invincible! My surgeon knows me too well, LOL.



I'm a food service lifer and physically being able to run around doing a zillion things is par for the course. It's how I'm wired. "Relax" never existed in my vocabulary until this particular surgery and only because I've been forced to (nope, can't go back to work until X time, don't bother asking, says my surgeon, if you go back now you're going to screw up something by virtue of what you do.)

And you know what? My surgeon is correct. I had a very bad fall the other night walking our dogs. I fell because my repaired foot no longer pivots the way it's supposed to, nor can I forcefully push off it if I were running. I managed to hang onto the dogs, though, and totter home. I've just pushed back a few weeks of healing because I *had* to prove to myself that my foot was strong enough to withstand walking our dogs
I've had foot surgeries, too. After two of them, one on each foot, I was in a cast to the knee for 8 weeks and then in a boot for 6 because my surgeon was concerned about my bones setting properly because I have rheumatoid arthritis. He literally said to me, if we are doing this, we're doing it right, we are not going to waste each other's time. Was it a picnic? Hell, no, but I followed his orders to a T. I had dealt with foot pain for so long, I was happy to do whatever it took to get to a better place.
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Old 10-01-2017, 06:51 PM
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Or the time he blew his fingertip off firing a homemade cannon? He was a teenager at the time.
If I had a nickel for everyone in the clan who ----------- wait! You know, we could just be related!


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Old 10-01-2017, 07:06 PM
FairyChatMom FairyChatMom is online now
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Talked to my husband today - FIL is now using a wheelchair. Getting around on a walker was just too much for him - he'd be exhausted just going from the living room to the bathroom. (Cardiac issues and very low BP) So now he can roll all around the house.

So maybe my sweetie will be able to come home soon. Fingers crossed...
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Old 10-01-2017, 07:34 PM
Gatopescado Gatopescado is offline
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Is there something unclear about doctor's orders - as in the orders given by a doctor? I'm not an English major but I'm pretty sure that's correct usage.
Nah. Just a joke. My way of saying, "I don't go to doctors".
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:03 PM
kiz kiz is online now
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I've had foot surgeries, too. After two of them, one on each foot, I was in a cast to the knee for 8 weeks and then in a boot for 6 because my surgeon was concerned about my bones setting properly because I have rheumatoid arthritis. He literally said to me, if we are doing this, we're doing it right, we are not going to waste each other's time. Was it a picnic? Hell, no, but I followed his orders to a T. I had dealt with foot pain for so long, I was happy to do whatever it took to get to a better place.
I have osteoarthritis from the knees down, including both feet. I also have a history of Achilles tendon issues. My doctor declared similar, adding that she's had patients who've had to go back into surgery for repair because they didn't follow her instructions to the letter, and do I honestly want to join them?

Yep, I'm following her orders, loud and clear. And you're right, it hasn't been a picnic.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:08 PM
BobBitchin' BobBitchin' is offline
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Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
First, I hope you realize that reporting on the results of a study is not lying, even if other studies produce contrary information. Especially since almost any study will have lots of information on what the limitations are, stuff ignored by the news media.
Second, people convinced authorities are lying often ignore all evidence to the contrary. I've seen anti-vaxxers - anti polio vaccine - claim that the massive decrease in polio cases after the Salk and Sabin vaccines were the result of better water treatment, not the vaccines. I was alive then - this is bullshit.
Remember, the people who think they know the most are the people who know the least.
I said authorities have lied and do lie and that may influence how people act on advice from authorities.
  #36  
Old 10-01-2017, 10:14 PM
aruvqan aruvqan is offline
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Originally Posted by kayT View Post
And then there's the conflicting experts issue. My cardiologist in California told me the ratio of cholesterol is more important than the individual levels and mine was wonderful. My Texas cardiologist says I should take a statin, because. He had a couple of reasons to do with plaque and keeping it hard and blah, but after I had a bunch of tests he admitted the plaque issue doesn't really apply to me, yet he still wants me to take lipitor. Guess what. I am not taking a statin despite what the expert says. See why we don't always trust the doctor?
Pretty much this ... Look, I get bloodwork done quarterly, I am diabetic and that is all there is. One of the things we track is my cholesterol, I love grapefruit and I want to eat the damned stuff, if I take statins, I can't have grapefruit. My numbers are *good* so my regular doc is fine with me not taking them. WHen I popped with serious chaotic evil malignant hypertension, we spent 3 months trying to figure out what the hell was causing it. When one of the top cardiologists on the east coast can't figure out anything more than 'something in the brain seems to have gotten wired wrong' then it isn't an issue with my arteries [hey, at 315 pounds, diabetic for over 25 years and about as athletic as a slug and my echocardiogram is textbook *perfect* then it obviously isn't plaque related ... and I am now 100 pounds lighter, still diabetic and still as athletic as a slug ...] SO what does my cardiologist focus on on my annual checkup? Not taking statins ... *sigh* So I tell him that my doc is fine with me not taking them, my numbers are fine according to him [hey, he is the one that went to med school and knows the right numbers ti hit] so the cardiologist grumps at me, and orders me to go and pour out a couple vials for immediate bloodwork to check my cholesterol numbers, and by the way he is telling me this he is assuming that because 'he has a more strict set of numbers to hit' that he will be calling in a scrip for statins ... oddly enough, I never actually got a scrip for statins ...

[this is the same cardiologist that way back when I started seeing him was grumpy at my diet log full of milk, butter, eggs, heavy cream - because my numbers were better than his, and he was an exercise nut. What can I say, I would rather have limited *real* food that all the low fat, low sugar, non-food that people try ti substitute in. I have been doing the 1800 cal a day nutritionist approved deal since 1980, I *know* what I can cook and eat safely for a diabetic, and it is actually pretty damned healthy.]
  #37  
Old 10-02-2017, 09:45 AM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is offline
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Originally Posted by aruvqan View Post
I love grapefruit and I want to eat the damned stuff, if I take statins, I can't have grapefruit.
Just FYI, it's fine to consume grapefruit with statins like atorvastatin and rosuvastatin.
  #38  
Old 10-02-2017, 10:06 AM
aruvqan aruvqan is offline
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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
Just FYI, it's fine to consume grapefruit with statins like atorvastatin and rosuvastatin.
So why the blanket 'don't eat grapefruit'? mrAru is on atorvastatin and was specifically told not to eat it. He does have cholesterol issues, so actually needs statins.

[I really detest the shove a pill at someone because they have *disease and might need it .... just because I am diabetic and fat does not mean I automatically have bad labs ... do the damned test then decide what to give me based on the numbers!]
  #39  
Old 10-02-2017, 11:00 AM
FairyChatMom FairyChatMom is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
Just FYI, it's fine to consume grapefruit with statins like atorvastatin and rosuvastatin.
Really? I love grapefruit but I'm on atorvastatin, so I avoided it. This is good news!
  #40  
Old 10-02-2017, 12:41 PM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aruvqan View Post
So why the blanket 'don't eat grapefruit'? mrAru is on atorvastatin and was specifically told not to eat it. He does have cholesterol issues, so actually needs statins.

[I really detest the shove a pill at someone because they have *disease and might need it .... just because I am diabetic and fat does not mean I automatically have bad labs ... do the damned test then decide what to give me based on the numbers!]
No idea.

As for DM and statins, evidence is really very, VERY strong that taking a statin if you have DM reduces risk for stroke and heart attack quite significantly, no matter how good nor how bad your cholesterol labs are off the statin. Hence the recommendation. It's been shown to reduce morbidity and mortality (save health and lives) in well-controlled diabetics with low LDL and high HDL. Probably by reducing plaque formation directly.

And it's a good recommendation. And like all good recommendations, patient may opt out, but opting out ought to be after a reasonable discussion about 'why not take it'.
  #41  
Old 10-02-2017, 12:45 PM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is offline
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Avoid grapefruit juice if you're on lovastatin or simvastatin.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2...it-safely-mix/
  #42  
Old 10-07-2017, 03:37 PM
erysichthon erysichthon is offline
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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
Just FYI, it's fine to consume grapefruit with statins like atorvastatin and rosuvastatin.
Thank you for giving me a reason to resume drinking Fresca!
  #43  
Old 10-08-2017, 12:20 AM
glowacks glowacks is offline
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Generally health warnings tend to be more general than needed because a lot of people aren't very good at remembering details. Perhaps they'll remember that X and Y statin are ok with grapefruits, but when they were really told that they were *not* OK with grapefruits. It's much safer to just say to everyone "don't eat/drink grapefruit (juice) if you're on statins".
  #44  
Old 10-08-2017, 03:45 AM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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ISTR hearing that only white grapefruit interferes with the effectiveness of statins, and this is the primary reason that I only see pink/ruby red grapefruit products around anymore. Did this turn out to be bogus?
  #45  
Old 10-08-2017, 09:19 AM
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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I think the fact that pink and red grapefruit are usually sweeter than white grapefruit has more to do with them being more common than medical issues.

Rather like it's getting harder and harder to find watermelons with seeds in them anymore, and there seems to be a race on to breed the World's Sweetest Apple.
  #46  
Old 10-08-2017, 01:46 PM
nearwildheaven nearwildheaven is offline
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Grapefruit interferes with the metabolism of statins, and some other drugs, because of a certain P450 enzyme. Exactly how it happens and why is still being studied, and it doesn't do that to everyone.
  #47  
Old 10-09-2017, 12:39 PM
P墎itel P墎itel is offline
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My father took this path to the point of suicide.
He was a lifetime smoker and a closet alcoholic. When he developed COPD he was told no more smoking and no more alcohol. He ignored both.
He always was terrified, from middle age on, of getting old and losing agency. I don't know whether it was a conscious decision or if he was in denial till the end, but he essentially chose death over old age.
__________________
"Those that would give up Essential Liberty for a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
--- Ben Franklin
  #48  
Old 10-09-2017, 01:49 PM
Chronos Chronos is online now
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The doctor may be the expert on medicine in general, but that does not always mean that he knows more about that specific patient than the patient does. For comparison, consider my grandfather (who sounds like he was cut from much the same cloth as FairyChatMom's FIL), who got hit by a truck at age 83. The doctors who didn't know him said that he'd never walk again. The doctors who did know him said that he wouldn't be walking again for six months. It took him one month. Now, granted, he still couldn't handle stairs, and that was a big impact on his quality of life, but not walking at all would have been an even bigger impact.
  #49  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:52 PM
MacLir MacLir is offline
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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
People are primates. Just watch the primates in the monkey house at the zoo, and eventually you'll learn all you need to know about human behavior.

Logic? Reason? My ass . . .
Worked for Valentine Michael Smith
  #50  
Old 10-12-2017, 05:25 PM
MacLir MacLir is offline
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Originally Posted by FairyChatMom View Post
Like the time he was way up on an extension ladder, chain saw in one hand, leaning out to cut down a branch?? He was in his 60s at the time.

Or the time he blew his fingertip off firing a homemade cannon? He was a teenager at the time.

And other things that I'm not going to list...

He's not a stupid man by any means. But sometimes I have to wonder. And I don't know if it's genetic or a learned behavior, but I see similar choices being made by his firstborn. Maybe it's a guy thing that I don't understand.
It's a guy thing.

I am told that for several years after I graduated highschool my former teachers would twitch involuntarily at the words "Science Project".

OK, so I made a thermite volcano - and set it off inside - and shocked the bejesus out of two of my classmates - one of them with a biology project!

Plus the death threat I got from the chemistry teacher when I paid too much attention to the crystalline iodine. Despite her being 2/3 my mass, I took her seriously.
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