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  #151  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:03 PM
Bayard Bayard is online now
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Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Interesting take on the Manafort/Papadopoulos news from Seth Abramson: https://tttthreads.com/thread/924988111880417280
Goddamn! That's fascinating and really informative. Thanks for posting that. I wanted to post a few of the most important Tweets, but they're all just jaw-dropping.

Everyone should read jsgoddess's link.
  #152  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:06 PM
Aspenglow Aspenglow is offline
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Goddamn! That's fascinating and really informative. Thanks for posting that. I wanted to post a few of the most important Tweets, but they're all just jaw-dropping.

Everyone should read jsgoddess's link.
Agreed. It's great stuff.
  #153  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:08 PM
mhendo mhendo is offline
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Originally Posted by SteveG1 View Post
The funding for the dossier OPRIGINALLY came from conservative Republicans, not the Clinton camp.
Right, but that doesn't really negate Bricker's point.

He simply noted that the dossier was "prepared by a foreign citizen and used by the Clinton campaign against Trump," which is true, even if the dossier was not originally prepared for the Clinton campaign.

I haven't seen the arguments that he's referring to, where some Dopers allegedly claimed that "any time a foreign citizen contributed valuable information to a campaign, this was illegal." But if some people did say this, and if they truly believe that foreign citizens contributing information to a campaign is illegal, then that argument should still apply in this case, even if the document wasn't prepared at the explicit request of the Clinton campaign.

I'd be interested to see the claims that he's talking about, though.
  #154  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:12 PM
JackieLikesVariety JackieLikesVariety is offline
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Originally Posted by Bayard View Post
Goddamn! That's fascinating and really informative. Thanks for posting that. I wanted to post a few of the most important Tweets, but they're all just jaw-dropping.

Everyone should read jsgoddess's link.

it's making me hopeful!


Quote:
We mustn't forget that in a case in which evidence is *scarce* a prosecutor would have to start *much* lower on the chain than Manafort.
  #155  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:13 PM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is offline
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
Second of all, there is no one else who is going to draw attention to better than Hillary.
Tru dat. She's in the Emmanuel Goldstein role in this 1984 parody.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 10-30-2017 at 03:13 PM.
  #156  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:16 PM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is offline
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Originally Posted by mhendo View Post
I'd be interested to see the claims that he's talking about, though.
Don't hold your breath waiting. He's made a habit lately of making claims like that about stuff I've supposedly said in past threads, without providing any substantiation.
  #157  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:26 PM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is offline
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Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Interesting take on the Manafort/Papadopoulos news from Seth Abramson: https://tttthreads.com/thread/924988111880417280
From the link:
Quote:
Between now and March 31, 2018 we can expect more indictments. Almost certainly Carter Page, Jared Kushner, and Mike Flynn—at a minimum.
May it be so. Couldn't happen to a more deserving group of guys - excluding the President, of course.

Someone cracked recently on Twitter that Jared would surely get into prison - he's a legacy.
  #158  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:27 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Originally Posted by mhendo View Post
Right, but that doesn't really negate Bricker's point.

He simply noted that the dossier was "prepared by a foreign citizen and used by the Clinton campaign against Trump," which is true, even if the dossier was not originally prepared for the Clinton campaign.
The Clinton campaign did not use the dossier.
  #159  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:28 PM
Happy Lendervedder Happy Lendervedder is offline
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Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Interesting take on the Manafort/Papadopoulos news from Seth Abramson: https://tttthreads.com/thread/924988111880417280
Damn, there's some nuggets in there. Abramson seems to believe today is the beginning of the end for the Trump admin, but that things are going to get uglier from here. "We must cast aside old notions of what sort of behavior is "likely" in a politician and how/whether independent journos can contribute...Things will get worse in America—very ugly—before they get better. We all must prepare ourselves now with knowledge of the facts."

Everyone stop what you're doing and read that link.

My favorite from that Tweet series:

Quote:
102/ I want to make a perhaps obvious point: were Trump not a narcissist, we might expect him to resign the presidency this week. He's done.

103/ He told America for months and months and months he knew of no Russia connections on his campaign. But he *did*—as of March 31st, 2016.
  #160  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:32 PM
Bayard Bayard is online now
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From the Seth Abramson thread:
Quote:
68/ Papadopoulos met a Russian national to set up a Kremlin channel for Trump on 3/24/16. It now seems clear he told Trump this on 3/31/16.

69/ This means Trump ordered a GOP platform change to benefit Russia *pre-hacking* and *after* being told the Kremlin wanted a relationship.

70/ That is to say, it now seems release of the DNC emails was a quid pro quo from Trump ordering Gordon to change the GOP platform 3/31/16.

72/ If Trump ordered the GOP platform change after Papadopoulos laid out the Kremlin's interest in him—and he did—collusion has been proven.

73/ I said this before—that the GOP platform change was *provably* collusion—but *now* we know Mueller has that witness in his back pocket.

<snip>

122/ Remember that—as I tweeted a week ago—Trump *elevated* Papadopoulos to a Russia-policy spokesman upon learning he was a Kremlin agent.

123/ By April 7, 2016—7 days after revealing himself—Papadopoulos was in Israel explaining Trump's Russia policy to well-connected Israelis.

124/ This despite the minimal professional qualification Papadopoulos had for being on the NatSec team having to do with Middle Eastern oil.

125/ So every action Trump and his team took in response to Papadopoulos outing himself as a Kremlin intermediary augmented his Russia role.

126/ And every action Trump and his team took once they knew they had a Kremlin intermediary aboard was to seek new secret ties with Russia.
I think those were the most striking ones to me. But, really, the whole thing is amazing.
  #161  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:36 PM
Richard Parker Richard Parker is offline
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Abramson is overstating things significantly.

But as long as we're into the interesting speculation genre, this one is a doozy: https://hotair.com/archives/2017/10/...-wire-mueller/
  #162  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:42 PM
Bayard Bayard is online now
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Newsweek reminds us that Manafort was instrumental in getting Trump to pick Mike Pence as his running mate. Manafort went so far as to lie to Trump about a mechanical failure on his plane to get him to spend more time in Indiana with Pence. Now, why would Manafort be so heavily invested in getting Pence on the ticket?
  #163  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:44 PM
EddyTeddyFreddy EddyTeddyFreddy is offline
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Originally Posted by running coach View Post
And the sTrumpets on CNN are claiming "there's no evidence so it's over" and trying to take the discussion to Obama and Clinton.
Don't tell me, let me guess: They're talking really loud and really fast and repeating their talking points and bulldozing over everyone else, not letting them get a word in edgewise.

Did I get that right?
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  #164  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:44 PM
wonky wonky is online now
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Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Abramson is overstating things significantly.
Yeah, I can't follow the declaration that Trump knew about Papadopoulos on March 31.
  #165  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:46 PM
lazybratsche lazybratsche is offline
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There's an interesting nugget related to the Manafort indictment. One of the shell companies used by Manafort and Gates, Bade LLC, was paid $70,000 between November 2016 and January 2017 by the Republican National Committee. Supposedly, Manafort was working for free when he was in charge of the Trump campaign...

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nati...181708151.html
  #166  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:47 PM
EddyTeddyFreddy EddyTeddyFreddy is offline
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He was literally yelling "Whatabout".
That bulldog-faced guy, Ben something, right? Can't stand that obnoxious asshole, always hit the mute button when he starts spewing his crap.
  #167  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:48 PM
Bayard Bayard is online now
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Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Abramson is overstating things significantly.

But as long as we're into the interesting speculation genre, this one is a doozy: https://hotair.com/archives/2017/10/...-wire-mueller/
Hotair is not among my most trusted news sources. You're a lawyer, aren't you? Is what they're saying about "proactive cooperator" being a euphemism for someone who will wear a wire plausible?

If Abramson is overstating, then I'll temper my excitement. I may have got a little too wrapped up in my zeal to see more bombs fall. I'll try to calm down. For a while.
  #168  
Old 10-30-2017, 03:51 PM
Richard Parker Richard Parker is offline
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Originally Posted by Bayard View Post
Hotair is not among my most trusted news sources. You're a lawyer, aren't you? Is what they're saying about "proactive cooperator" being a euphemism for someone who will wear a wire plausible?

If Abramson is overstating, then I'll temper my excitement. I may have got a little too wrapped up in my zeal to see more bombs fall. I'll try to calm down. For a while.
I agree that Hotair is usually an accurate description. But in this case, they're not wrong. It's definitely in the realm of speculation. But you might call it educated speculation.

If you were Mueller and you had a cooperator whose name somehow hadn't leaked, why wouldn't you see what you could get on a wire? Would sort of be malpractice not to try.
  #169  
Old 10-30-2017, 04:01 PM
Bayard Bayard is online now
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I agree that Hotair is usually an accurate description. But in this case, they're not wrong. It's definitely in the realm of speculation. But you might call it educated speculation.

If you were Mueller and you had a cooperator whose name somehow hadn't leaked, why wouldn't you see what you could get on a wire? Would sort of be malpractice not to try.
Interesting, thanks. If there are recordings... That would be something. There must be a lot of brown trousers inside the Administration today.
  #170  
Old 10-30-2017, 04:16 PM
Mind's Eye, Watering Mind's Eye, Watering is offline
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Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Interesting take on the Manafort/Papadopoulos news from Seth Abramson: https://tttthreads.com/thread/924988111880417280
Wow!
  #171  
Old 10-30-2017, 04:18 PM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is online now
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Nothing scares a rich guy like the prospect of becoming a poor one. Decency has long fled, true, but fear remains.
"You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by turning them into poor people."
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  #172  
Old 10-30-2017, 04:37 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is online now
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Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Yeah, I can't follow the declaration that Trump knew about Papadopoulos on March 31.
Also, the claim that Trump changed the platform on 3/31 as part of a quid pro quo in exchange for release of the emails ignores the plea stipulation, which says Papadopolous was told the Russians had emails on about April 26 or so.
  #173  
Old 10-30-2017, 04:41 PM
Richard Parker Richard Parker is offline
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
Also, the claim that Trump changed the platform on 3/31 as part of a quid pro quo in exchange for release of the emails ignores the plea stipulation, which says Papadopolous was told the Russians had emails on about April 26 or so.
The platform was changed in July, wasn't it?
  #174  
Old 10-30-2017, 04:44 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is online now
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I don't know. I just went with what this guy wrote in #59 & #70. Either way, it doesn't suggest that much confidence should be put in his other claims.

Last edited by Fotheringay-Phipps; 10-30-2017 at 04:45 PM.
  #175  
Old 10-30-2017, 04:49 PM
Aspenglow Aspenglow is offline
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Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
The platform was changed in July, wasn't it?
July 18, 2016.
  #176  
Old 10-30-2017, 04:52 PM
China Guy China Guy is offline
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I don't know. I just went with what this guy wrote in #59 & #70. Either way, it doesn't suggest that much confidence should be put in his other claims.
Always cast doubt...

The guy does a pretty impressive quick summary that runs over a hundred items. One would expect a few don't line up, but overall an extremely interesting analysis. Or are you not seeing a very thick smoke coming out on the collusion with Russia thing?
  #177  
Old 10-30-2017, 04:56 PM
Ludovic Ludovic is online now
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Originally Posted by filmore View Post
I've heard that Manafort was laundering money by borrowing money from one Russian, buying a condo, then selling that condo to another Russian. It is often mentioned that the condos were in Trump properties, but does it matter where the condos were? I can't see how that implicates Trump in any way. Does the Trump Tower get a cut of all condo sales or something?
I don't think they get a cut of all condos that were never sold in the first place, so if demand was low, as things tend to be for sketchy overpriced property, it could have helped.

ETA for just orange-licensed properties it could be different if it's only his name.

Last edited by Ludovic; 10-30-2017 at 04:57 PM.
  #178  
Old 10-30-2017, 04:56 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is online now
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Originally Posted by China Guy View Post
The guy does a pretty impressive quick summary that runs over a hundred items. One would expect a few don't line up, but overall an extremely interesting analysis. Or are you not seeing a very thick smoke coming out on the collusion with Russia thing?
I don't know about that.

Most of the most damning things he writes are speculation or assertions that "we know that ..." which don't seem to have any apparent basis. Of course, when a guy like me reads something like that I have to consider the possibility that some of these things are genuinely "known" to people who follow these things more closely than I've been doing. But if I see some egregious mistakes - which seem to feature heavily in his analysis (since the platform seems to be the primary form of collusion that he's alleging) then that plus all the speculative aspects seems to suggest that he's a nutcase or partisan CT rather than a more sober analyst.
  #179  
Old 10-30-2017, 05:06 PM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is offline
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I just read some comments on a Fox News article, and I hate to tell you this, but we've got it all wrong.

This is still a nothingburger and has nothing to do with Trump. Mueller, a Democrat shill, is grasping at straws, and not only should be fired but brought up on charges himself. There's nothing wrong or illegal about contacting a foreign government to try to get dirt on your opponent. Hillary did the same thing, and she should be indicted for it. This is all just a ploy to divert attention from the real scandal, which is Hillary personally selling uranium to the Russians.

Boy, now do I feel embarrassed.
  #180  
Old 10-30-2017, 05:15 PM
running coach running coach is online now
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Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
I just read some comments on a Fox News article, and I hate to tell you this, but we've got it all wrong.

This is still a nothingburger and has nothing to do with Trump. Mueller, a Democrat shill, is grasping at straws, and not only should be fired but brought up on charges himself. There's nothing wrong or illegal about contacting a foreign government to try to get dirt on your opponent. Hillary did the same thing, and she should be indicted for it. This is all just a ploy to divert attention from the real scandal, which is Hillary personally selling uranium to the Russians.

Boy, now do I feel embarrassed.
All those horrible jokes and this is what you're embarrassed about?
  #181  
Old 10-30-2017, 05:16 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is offline
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Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
I just read some comments on a Fox News article, and I hate to tell you this, but we've got it all wrong.

This is still a nothingburger and has nothing to do with Trump. Mueller, a Democrat shill, is grasping at straws, and not only should be fired but brought up on charges himself. There's nothing wrong or illegal about contacting a foreign government to try to get dirt on your opponent. Hillary did the same thing, and she should be indicted for it. This is all just a ploy to divert attention from the real scandal, which is Hillary personally selling uranium to the Russians.

Boy, now do I feel embarrassed.
Yesterday I learned that the imminent indictment would be for Hillary Clinton. What will they teach us next?
  #182  
Old 10-30-2017, 05:26 PM
The King of Soup The King of Soup is offline
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Originally Posted by mhendo View Post
Right, but that doesn't really negate Bricker's point.

He simply noted that the dossier was "prepared by a foreign citizen and used by the Clinton campaign against Trump," which is true, even if the dossier was not originally prepared for the Clinton campaign.

I haven't seen the arguments that he's referring to, where some Dopers allegedly claimed that "any time a foreign citizen contributed valuable information to a campaign, this was illegal." But if some people did say this, and if they truly believe that foreign citizens contributing information to a campaign is illegal, then that argument should still apply in this case, even if the document wasn't prepared at the explicit request of the Clinton campaign.

I'd be interested to see the claims that he's talking about, though.

The Clinton campaign paid an American law firm (Perkins-Cole), which hired an American research firm (Fusion GPS) to research the Trump campaign, particularly (as it turned out) its violations of laws prohibiting certain types of collusion with foreign agencies. Fusion GPS employed at least one foreign national (Steele) who worked on this assignment. There is nothing even remotely illegal, immoral, or wrong here, except as the information gathered may prove highly illicit activities on the part of Republican operatives, up to and including Trump, his associates and appointees, and various elected Republicans who conspired to cover up Russian cash infusions and disinformation campaigns to influence opinion and elections in their favor.
  #183  
Old 10-30-2017, 06:01 PM
GrandWino GrandWino is offline
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Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Yeah, I can't follow the declaration that Trump knew about Papadopoulos on March 31.
I don't have time to dig through the current threads, but Seth Abramson has posted a bunch of these long threads backed up with publicly known reporting. I believe his assuredness on Trump knowing on 3/31 has to do w/ the meeting that Papa was at, where he told Trump and team that he had connections to Russia.


This article has info on that meeting date. Here:
Quote:
But the Papadopoulos plea shows that Sessions — then acting as Trump’s top foreign policy adviser — was in a March 31, 2016, meeting with Trump at which Papadopoulos explained “he had connections that could help arrange a meeting between then-candidate Trump and President Putin.” It also shows that Papadopoulos kept a number of campaign officials in the loop on his efforts to set up a meeting between Trump and Putin, though they secretly determined that the meeting “should be someone low level in the campaign so as not to send any signal,” itself a sign the campaign was trying to hide its efforts to make nice with the Russians.

Last edited by GrandWino; 10-30-2017 at 06:03 PM.
  #184  
Old 10-30-2017, 06:18 PM
Tee Tee is offline
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Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
I just read some comments on a Fox News article, and I hate to tell you this, but we've got it all wrong.

This is still a nothingburger and has nothing to do with Trump. Mueller, a Democrat shill, is grasping at straws, and not only should be fired but brought up on charges himself. There's nothing wrong or illegal about contacting a foreign government to try to get dirt on your opponent. Hillary did the same thing, and she should be indicted for it. This is all just a ploy to divert attention from the real scandal, which is Hillary personally selling uranium to the Russians.

Boy, now do I feel embarrassed.
About an hour ago I was listening to Ann Coulter and Howie Carr saying these same things on his Boston radio show. I noticed they both lacked the usual tone of withering condescension though.
  #185  
Old 10-30-2017, 06:24 PM
BigAppleBucky BigAppleBucky is offline
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
This.

Trump will stay as long as the political enablers keep him there. And while he's there, he'll inflict whatever damage on the country he feels like.

DJ Trump before family
Family before friends
Friends before rich members of the Party
Rich members of the party before any other members
Party before country
My view of his heirarchy:

Trump HIMSELF
Trump Assets
Trump Family
Rich Friends
Other Kleptocrats and Russians
Sycophants
Rich members of the party
Congress Critters who toe the line
Other GOP Congress Critters
Anyone who might help HIMSELF
Everything else
  #186  
Old 10-30-2017, 06:40 PM
2nd Law 2nd Law is offline
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When do we find out how much Manaforte's bail is set at?
  #187  
Old 10-30-2017, 06:43 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is online now
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Radio sez $10 million.
  #188  
Old 10-30-2017, 06:44 PM
JohnT JohnT is offline
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Government sets bail at $10M for Manafort, $5M for Gates. Also, house arrest for both.

Last edited by JohnT; 10-30-2017 at 06:44 PM.
  #189  
Old 10-30-2017, 06:58 PM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is online now
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In today's Atlantic online... I like the sound of this:

Robert Mueller Is Just Getting Started
Quote:
With the release of his first indictments and a surprise plea deal on Monday morning, Special Counsel Robert Mueller sketched a partial outline of his team’s investigation into Russian electoral meddling and took control of a news narrative that had been increasingly dominated by his conservative critics.

Legal experts said the court filings indicate Mueller is running a serious, deliberative, and far-sighted inquiry. “I would say this is High-Level Special Counsel Investigation 101,” said Richard Ben-Veniste, a member of the Watergate special-prosecutor task force. “Mueller is operating by the book.”....
  #190  
Old 10-30-2017, 06:59 PM
wonky wonky is online now
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Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Yeah, I can't follow the declaration that Trump knew about Papadopoulos on March 31.
Nevermind. I see it now.
  #191  
Old 10-30-2017, 07:01 PM
wonky wonky is online now
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Originally Posted by GrandWino View Post
I don't have time to dig through the current threads, but Seth Abramson has posted a bunch of these long threads backed up with publicly known reporting. I believe his assuredness on Trump knowing on 3/31 has to do w/ the meeting that Papa was at, where he told Trump and team that he had connections to Russia.


This article has info on that meeting date. Here:
Thanks for pointing this out. I saw a reference to that a few minutes ago but I should have read the thread before commenting.

Last edited by wonky; 10-30-2017 at 07:02 PM.
  #192  
Old 10-30-2017, 07:09 PM
Fiveyearlurker Fiveyearlurker is offline
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Originally Posted by Happy Lendervedder View Post

My favorite from that Tweet series:
"102/ I want to make a perhaps obvious point: were Trump not a narcissist, we might expect him to resign the presidency this week. He's done."

Is this a true statement? In a normal presidency would we be expecting a resignation?
  #193  
Old 10-30-2017, 07:20 PM
wonky wonky is online now
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
"102/ I want to make a perhaps obvious point: were Trump not a narcissist, we might expect him to resign the presidency this week. He's done."

Is this a true statement? In a normal presidency would we be expecting a resignation?
I don't think so. Considering we've had 45 presidents, one resignation, and half a dozen? ginormous scandals.
  #194  
Old 10-30-2017, 07:23 PM
Sunny Daze Sunny Daze is online now
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I think in a "normal" presidency, he wouldn't even be president. Since he is, I think it'll have to get to the point where he is actively damaging the party, and he'll be pressured to resign. If he won't do it, he'll be impeached.
  #195  
Old 10-30-2017, 07:42 PM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is online now
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I don't think so. Considering we've had 45 presidents, one resignation, and half a dozen? ginormous scandals.
But indictments, or even something close? Every time that's happened, it's forced a resignation.
  #196  
Old 10-30-2017, 07:59 PM
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Does that mean paying $10M to get upgraded from jail to house arrest?
  #197  
Old 10-30-2017, 08:01 PM
cmyk cmyk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scr4 View Post
Does that mean paying $10M to get upgraded from jail to house arrest?
I'm guessing $10M not to wear an electronic ankle bracelet.
  #198  
Old 10-30-2017, 08:43 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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Has anyone noticed Murdoch's media empires getting more and more desperate to turn the public against Mueller and encourage Trump to abuse his pardon powers? The wall street journal is as bad as any conservative conspiracy theory site now that these indictments are out.

Does Murdoch's media empire have something to do with all this? Why are they so desperate?
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 10-30-2017 at 08:44 PM.
  #199  
Old 10-30-2017, 08:59 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is online now
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Originally Posted by jsgoddess View Post
Interesting take on the Manafort/Papadopoulos news from Seth Abramson: https://tttthreads.com/thread/924988111880417280
Thank you for that, that was very informative (I'll need to read it several times though).

One thing that confused me is when Abramson said this

Quote:
49/ Months ago I said "Phase 3" of Mueller's probe would begin in November of 2017. It instead began October 30, 2017. (Pretty darn close.)

50/ I've also said that Phase 3—in which Trump co-conspirators are indicted—would last 2 to 5 months. So that's what we're in for right now.
His use of 'phase 3' was confusing to me, so I researched it. I think he was referencing this thread he made in August.

https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/sta...63007404261377

Quote:
(4) Phase 3, which we *will* get to, is the issuance of many "true bills" (indictments) against minor figures in the probe and Trump aides.
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  #200  
Old 10-30-2017, 09:08 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
There's another one.

On October 5th, George Papadopolous pleaded guilty to making false statements to the FBI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Lendervedder View Post
Wait, Webster's dad? I don't believe it! I don't want to believe it! That poor little Webster's already been through so much.
I thought Webster's dad was named Mongo...
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